GY!BE Mafia [E.N.D.]

[sig]

ill finish catching up/answering points this afternoon

[birdwithteeth11]

Only....8 pages to go to catch up!

I'll leave to work out at some point, but should be caught up by the end of the afternoon.

[timmer]

But even if maNY day 1 reads end up wrong, they are better than no reads at all! It's the day 1 reads that eventually show connections between people etc. If we all choose not to make cases because they might be wrong the baddies win.

I'm fine with someone talking a certain stance that is different than mine but some original thoughts are mandatory. Just saying "this could all be wrong " is going to earn my vote.

[birdwithteeth11]

If I had to pick a title of a Shakespeare play to describe the game so far, I'd have to go with Much Ado About Nothing.

Well, that or Henry VI, Part 1, purely based on the staggering amount of posts you people are spitting out.

Most are based after, the before mentioned Nothing, with the use of the word "fellow" and "just not trying hard enough" being the onuses of some particularly ridiculous stuff.

The game's now sort of collapsed into a hall of mirrors where everyone seems obsessed with everyone's reads on each other despite the fact that the only person who has done something is MP, who burst out of the gate and attempted to wrest control of the thread. Other than that it seems people are reading people based on their reads on other people which are based on other people's reads.

Going back to MP, if he didn't have the ol' POE shield to hide behind, I'd consider him my top suspicion. But, I find everything about the POE strategy suspicious and wrong, so my entire barometer's completely out of whack. I'm not exactly sure who elected him king of the thread, I must have missed that Day 0 poll, but he's sure acting like it what with the demands that people meet his standards of play and constant announcements about his own personal POE rankings which are mostly irrelevant to anyone that doesn't actively suspect him due to the fact that NOBODY ELSE IS USING POE IN THIS GAME. That, plus THE LARGE AMOUNT OF SECRETS AND CHICANERY INVOLVED IN THIS GAME MAKE POE STUPID EVEN BY POE STANDARDS. but hey, whatever floats your boat.

Aren't you one of the players who is big on letting people play their own way? I mean, I know you don't get the whole POE thing and I understand your logic, but I don't see how it makes MP so suspicious.

[birdwithteeth11]

Vote JaggedJimmyJay because Sloondog's got the right idea!

Here's to hoping you explain this later on. Because I'm not seeing any case on Jay yet. Him being a bit more laid-back and impassive makes me more aware of him, but not necessarily thinking he is bad.

[LoRab]

I'm like 5 pages behind. Trying to catch up. Just wanted to let y'all know that I'm still here.

Hi, LoRab!

Curious to hear what thoughts you have when you get caught up.

Hi! For now at least, I'm skipping those 5 pages. I don't have the time or energy to go back--so if anything happened I need to know about, someone please let me know!!

I don't have much to say. The day 0/1 conversation has been interesting, but I'm not sure I have any conclusions from it. At least not strong ones. I think i'm still wrapping my brain around the game.

[birdwithteeth11]

MPJay,

To answer you both at once, I haven't read much of the game before the last 20 posts or so. I just looked at the poll and followed Sloonei's vote.

Jay is confirmed scum.

....aaaaaand not feeling that great about you now.

[birdwithteeth11]

then i dont' see your confusion tbh

i thught mp was being way too LOOK AT ME I AM A CIVVIE

it had nothing to do with lorab zat zall

That is me like every game though, isn't it?

I wouldn't say so.

I would actually agree with this. MP seems much more inquisitive and wanting to get down to business, with not many jokey post scattered in there. This does have a different feel from him in terms of his content so far.

[birdwithteeth11]

So you have in fact read my case?

Nope, and I've pointed that out already.

Anything else I can help you with?

Linki: you're a sexy one Ms Sloonei.

Still not feeling good about you, but this response made me laugh way too hard.

[birdwithteeth11]

Can anybody ever actually tell if vomps is good or bad? He's a spambot

I've given up on looking for tells for him. I think for him, it's more about vote history that you have to look at.

And even then, I usually end up flipping a coin.

[birdwithteeth11]

This trio of posts from birdwithteeth intrigues me:

Spoiler: show

I lost interest after reading PoE 3 times

JJJ and MP, are you teammates again?

I don't use POE myself that much if at all, but I do find it an interesting strategy and, while not perfect, can be effective in certain situations.

What makes you think they're teammates? Just because they have similar feelings on certain players, albeit with slight disagreements on other opinions? Because I have null reads on both so far.

Linki @MP - idk. I think it's the PoE discussion along with your mannerisms. Declaring PoE as your playstyle gives you a means to stick to something and have at least have that method of play be true. Your mannerisms make it hard to read you in general.

While I can see the argument for the first part, I disagree very much with the bolded. Since I started playing mafia, I think MP's mannerisms have changed considerably. I used to be able to tell much more quickly in games if he was civ or bad. But I think he has evolved and adapted well enough that he's become a much more difficult read, regardless of playstyle and mannerisms.

That being said, there are some thing he is more likely to do if he is civ vs. bad and vice-versa...

That's exactly what a baddie would say.

Eh, I guess it was the mannerisms were just subject of my thoughts at the moment, but you are correct. This defined PoE playstyle is what has my feathers rustled. Your argument that it produces content doesn't settle my stomachache either as I know you have the potential to out tons of posts as a baddie just as you do while civvie.

Sooooo....you feel his defined playstyle and him stating so bothers you, but then say it isn't indicative-alignment right afterwards?

I thought you were trying to make your mind up on something. Are you sure you aren't just trying to stir the pot early on?

All three posts are responses to DrWilgy about MP. In all three he is either vaguely defensive of MP or vaguely critical of Wilgy, or both. BWT has also been very wishy-washy with regards to Edgar Allan Poe all game long with posts like this one where he expresses skepticism of the strategy but does not condemn it or MP at all.
birdwithteeth, how are you reading Wilgy right now? How are you reading MP? What compelled you to respond to these posts in this way?

Others, how do you feel about these posts?

I felt slightly not good about Wilgy before. But I often feel that way about him early on in games so I'm waiting to see more from him before I make up my mind.

I am reading MP as if Spacedaisy gave him way too much coffee and he is pulling an all-nighter. So hyperactive and super enthusiastic to be playing. I'm leaning civ on him still.

I responded to those posts that way because I was trying to pick Wilgy's brain and figure out where he is coming from while trying to form my own opinions. If I felt strongly enough or his posts had pinged me enough, then I would have placed a vote on him. And while several things have pinged me so far, nothing strong enough has happened to make me place a vote yet, plus I am still catching up after not having checked in at all yesterday.

[birdwithteeth11]

Sloonie I see what he is doing as early day 1 reads. So he might not be taking a strong stance, but I don't think that is alignment indicating. I also don't want to lynch bwt today since he always seems to get lynched early and rarely (if ever) is mafia when lynched day 1/2

Hey Boomslang, have my vote. Convince me you're town. What are your current reads and why? They don't have to be anything substantial by any means.

I don't like this post, not saying it is a mafia post or pingy I just don't like it. We have just started day 1 how many accurate and true reads can you have at this point? In fact i'd be more suspicious of people who have any strong reads since it would imply buddying/mafia town reading people they think are town.

I feel like we are moving way to quickly for a day 1 and that it could cause harm to town in mid game.

at this point, I'm waiting for the actual game to start, because reading into this pre-game nonsense is giving me nothing.

I actually agree with this, I've read day 0 and have gotten very little from it so far.

I could not disagree any more with the bolded part. Is there a chance for collateral damage? There always is for a Day 1 vote. Do we help the civ cause by keeping thoughts in and not putting everything out in the thread early on? Nope.

I would rather have much more content to wade through later on and have firmer opinions, rather than get to the middle of the game, with nothing to go on but a trail of dead civilians. I've had too many games like that I've played in where I get to Day 3 or 4 and don't have any idea where to go.

Maybe a bit of my bias is present here, but you jumped way up on my list for a Day 1 vote.

[birdwithteeth11]

sig, all due respect, don't take my response as rude. It isn't intended that way. I just cannot possibly disagree with you more on that matter; it is unfathomable to me that anyone could think that the current activity for this game is bad for the town.

Furthermore, I didn't ask Boomslang for accurate or true reads. I find it suspicious that you are misconstruing my post as that, especially in conjunction with the fact that you say you don't like it but you don't mafia read it. I was trying to get a feel for him. I still am. I am with everyone. Reads cannot be even remotely accurate if no one pokes anyone else. I am trying to get reads on everyone I can; that's how you play the game of mafia. I think that's been a running theme in my posts, so for you to interpret my post the way that you did (saying that no one can have accurate reads) is outwardly misrepresentation or misunderstanding, and I'm inclined to believe the former at the moment.

But see here is the issue when does generating content turn into overposting which makes people less interested and more confused? I'm not sure if you're doing this now but it is a strategy you've employed in the past, it's day 1 and you already have 200 posts. I know town MP does this as well, but it is perhaps one of your best skills as a mafia member as well.

I don't like Scotty's vote on bwt or Sloonie's. He is a low fruit early on time and time again.

Okay, I get the "overposting = less interested players" argument. And I may have reacted to you way too emotionally to my last response at you.

But I still disagree that having this amount of content doesn't lead to a more sound result later on.

I actually don't get Scotty's vote on me. I think Sloonei said she put a vote on me as a way to remember to read up on me later and to see what else I discussed afterwards.

[birdwithteeth11]

I think sig and Scotty are both suspicious and should be pressured.

I won't be around much, if at all, the rest of the day.

I am unfortunately in the same boat.

Why?

I've been called suspicious a few times already, by Golden, MP, and 3J yet none have given any reason for this read. Are you gut reading me as bad? Is it my posts? I find your lack of explanation disturbing.

welcome to donald trump's america.

Players can now lynch other players simply because they don't fit into their POE. They don't even need a thread-based reason!

Did I miss something? Why is the whole PoE thing so personal for you? Because that's how it feels to me.

[birdwithteeth11]

Quick vote dropping on Scotty. MP won my heart.

This is the first post where Wilgy has interacted with Scotty, outside of a "hello" Day 0 post.

Feels bandwagon-y to me.

[birdwithteeth11]

This Includes Content

I get your whole schtick for this game, but are you planning on incorporating any actual content in at some point?

[birdwithteeth11]

It's a Sin to Kill a Bird With Teeth on the First Day.

What do you feel about the cases against me so far?

[birdwithteeth11]

Others, how do you feel about these posts?

A couple comments:

~ It doesn't appear to me like BWT intended to voice a read on MP but rather discuss his experience playing with MP and how it has developed over time. It's not especially reads-relevant which itself lends to a potential for filler, but I don't see it as "wishy-washy" without it actually being a read. I see neutral commentary.

~ The third BWT post in your spoiler raises a question:

Spoiler: show

That's exactly what a baddie would say.

Eh, I guess it was the mannerisms were just subject of my thoughts at the moment, but you are correct. This defined PoE playstyle is what has my feathers rustled. Your argument that it produces content doesn't settle my stomachache either as I know you have the potential to out tons of posts as a baddie just as you do while civvie.

Sooooo....you feel his defined playstyle and him stating so bothers you, but then say it isn't indicative-alignment right afterwards?

I thought you were trying to make your mind up on something. Are you sure you aren't just trying to stir the pot early on?

There's a negative air to this post in BWT's questioning of Wilgy, and I think that's okay. It's a poke which can inspire a response and ideally allow the read to develop. However, it's not my favorite thing that BWT ended with the highlighted question. I'm not certain this question promotes a reliably reads-relevant response because I perceive "stirring the pot" to be a strategy employed by both townies and baddies. I'm also not sure which of those alignments BWT is associating with this question -- whether he is asking Wilgy if he's a townie trying to provoke reactions or asking Wilgy if he's a baddie trying to manipulate conflict.

BWT: could you please clarify your intended direction for the highlighted question?

Certainly!

I felt like Wilgy's post there was wishy-washy without overtly taking a side, but still finding a way to sling mud at MP because he disagrees with his approach to this game. I may not be joining in a PoE quest anytime soon, but I don't fault MP for taking a different approach to the game if he feels it will help him to find baddies. And since then, Wilgy isn't the only one to criticize such an approach.

Granted, MP also has the largest civ read to me of anyone in this game so far, so that's part of where I am coming from as well.

[DrWilgy]

Fight me bwt.

I'm as active and decisive as I can be right now.

What is your opinion on whom I should vote.

[birdwithteeth11]

Holy Batman, timmer's evening entrance (and exit and re-entrance) posts last night were the towniest posts I've seen made since.... well, Quin's replacement entrance posts in Mad Max.

But we all know how that turned out.

Still, I'm tentatively feeling really fucking good about timmer right now.

Been thinking of how to word this best, but this takes the cake.

Timmer is definitely in my firmly civ category so far in this game.

[timmer]

Okay, so Sig's recent reply to my thoughts has me pulling back a little on him. Especially since jjj was able to find at least one other game where sig seemed to search out his name in a game (maybe I'm weird for never doing this?). I think there is still a chance that he was alerted to things in a btsc, but I'm no longer able to say that that is anything but a random thought - the chances of my Thoery A are now equal to Theory B, in other words.

So for now, I'll move my vote to INH.

Two reasons. One, as I said earlier, I love me some INH but he seems to have not made a single effort to try to judge anything in the game outside of the process of elimination thing. And two, I'm a little surprised at it, but it seems as if I'm a lynch contender? This is the most active I've ever been on a Day 1, so the fact that I've taken votes this early has me baffled, but whatever, the point is, voting for INH also helps protect myself.

[DrWilgy]

Timmer, I'm glad you aren't rando voting lol.

Whom do you think I should vote?

[birdwithteeth11]

Fight me bwt.

I'm as active and decisive as I can be right now.

What is your opinion on whom I should vote.

You should vote for whoever you feel strongly against.

I'm just voicing my opinions on what I've seen from you so far. And it makes me feel slightly yucky.

[timmer]

Timmer, I'm glad you aren't rando voting lol.

Whom do you think I should vote?

Oh, I don't tend to make recommendations, lol. It's Day 1. Let's be real for a second, even with the insane number of posts in the game, there is still is probably about the same chance of a case being right today as in any Day 1. So I'm comfortable voting for INH, but I can't possibly lay out in a way that shows conclusive proof why others should, as well. Go with your gut, Doc!

[birdwithteeth11]

Alright, sig's latest response makes me feel much better about him. I feel his explanation for his first post in the game was genuine. If he really is busy, I appreciate the fact that he jumped right in with actual content.

He is off my list now.

[birdwithteeth11]

Timmer, I'm glad you aren't rando voting lol.

Whom do you think I should vote?

Why are you asking us who you should vote for? Do you have any reads on anyone that would be strong enough for you to vote for them?

[DrWilgy]

And that's fine, I'm not asking because I need you to tell me. I'm asking because I don't have the time to read and make an informed vote.

Thus I would like you to direct me to your best cases.

Linki- TY Timmer. As I don't believe this to be the same Jessica Jones Timmer, I'll vote trustin my gut with you.

Linki linki - no

[triceratopzeuhl]

I can dig trice's thoughts after being prodded by JJJ. It'd be nice to see more townie spark from him though... especially since the last game I believe trice played here, he was town (in my Death Note game), and he outposted pretty much everyone and got lynched Day 1. It might be interesting to compare some of his d1 content with how he behaved over there, even if it might not be particularly meaningful.

For obvious reasons I don't want to be lynched day 1 again, also that was also almost 2 years ago & I've had less free time this game

also for the record I was right about 4/5 of the people I named as bad before I got lynched :P

[triceratopzeuhl]

also that was also, smh, i need more coffee

[birdwithteeth11]

This catch up took much long than I thought (almost an hour and a half, but still worth it). I will be back before the day ends, but a few other points:

- Wilgy, would love to hear more substantive content from you. Getting bits and pieces but I would love to see you flesh some stuff out. Because otherwise I just keep getting baddie pings from you.

- Epignosis, more content from you as well.

- INH's attack of the PoE thing (even with MP later stating he is dropping it) felt like it was for all the wrong reasons to me. The thing that is holding me back on voting INH here and now is it comes off as an extremely emotional response. But he can also be an emotional player so I am torn a bit there. Will reflect on it some more.

- Jay, I really, really] hope you are good. I feel like you're starting to get a bit more substantive though which makes me feel a bit better and less neutral about you.

- MM is going for the "Random Chaos Theory" trophy again I think. Still makes me feel slightly bad but this isn't the first time he's pulled this stunt either so

- MP is still my strongest civ read so far which is a bit weird. Dude, when do we get to the point where we start butting heads? :P

- Scotty is my other strong case for a vote today. Very dismissive, and I'm starting to wonder if he is ignoring MP's question at him. Given he has had multiple opportunities to respond to it now.

- Sig I feel better about, as I've already stated.

Be back later.

[Epignosis]

When I was young, my English teachers always slammed my writing for being unnecessarily verbose.

As Well They Should

[Epignosis]

This Includes Content

I get your whole schtick for this game, but are you planning on incorporating any actual content in at some point?

If I Don't, Will You Punish Me?

[Epignosis]

- Epignosis, more content from you as well.

I Refuse to Do What You Want Because Every Time I Sit Down I Have a New Novel to Read

[Epignosis]

He's obviously been reading the thread and posting occasionally, has just apparently decided he's not interested in contributing to the game.

The Title of This Track is in Red To Show You How Your Opinion of Me Can't Be Genuine

[triceratopzeuhl]

You have 8x as many posts as him and the same amount of content though

[Epignosis]

I initially thought INH seemed town because he seemed willing to move beyond our different approaches to the game and offer some fair criticism to the prospective manner in which I set out to approach this game.

Since then, however, INH has seemed intent to do the exact opposite, waging war against the very notion of meaningful d0/d1 content and engaging only to question the legitimacy of methods employed by other players instead of offering up anything much more than a proverbial shrug himself. It's been my natural inclination to shrug off the inherent scummy nature of these actions due to a meta-painted picture in my head of these stances being alignment-neutral for INH.

Demons You Call Angels Have No Reason to Behave Differently to Change Your Mind

[triceratopzeuhl]

To clarify, matt could still just be MIA whereas you're obviously here and active

[Epignosis]

To clarify, matt could still just be MIA whereas you're obviously here and active

Some People Pretend They are Doing God's Work by Punishing Those Who Do Less

[DrWilgy]

#lynchEpi

[Sloonei]

#lynchEpi

no

[Sloonei]

Thanks, TZ (I'm going to start calling you that for short if you don't object).

Does MP's signal-to-noise ratio make you suspicious of him? How about Dom and Scotty's perceived arrogance?

"trice" is a common shortened version but I'm ok with TZ if 5 letters is too many for you

I haven't decided on MP yet. I believe a couple other people have said he's behaving differently from normal, which MP has hand-waved away as "oh but I'm doing POE this game that's why"

How true is this? How many players in this game would say I'm behaving differently than my own standard?

I would say no such thing. It's worth noting that I also don't think meta-matching is a town-tell for you, as I've seen you fake your meta perfectly as scum before. But I'm not getting any bad vibes from you so far.

[Tangrowth]

Alright, I'm here.

Very weak? This isn't even my final form!

I have to admit this gave me a laugh.

[Tangrowth]

What would be a better answer?

An answer which details a reasonable perspective you have/had about what I might be doing as a baddie when I poked MP on Day 0 which bears the appearance of being genuine. I don't know what that'd be, but I'd imagine it's plausible for it to exist.

What would be a worse answer?

An answer which details an unreasonable perspective you have/had about what I might be doing as a baddie when I poked MP on Day 0 which does not bear the appearance of being genuine. I thought you might be shading me for opportunism re: MP via implication without directly stating it, which would be a dubious assertion given the fuller context of my dialogue with MP.

To your credit, you didn't go there. You didn't provide a "reasonable perspective" either; you left your answer at its most basic: "I thought your accusation was b/s and it was a ping". It's not a thorough explanation, but it's also not one that looks made up. I can on some level appreciate the take-it-or-leave-it frankness.

This is a good point. I can believe that a baddie Dom would have engaged in the latter.

There are three options here.
Wich one?

Lol, my bad, I should have been clearer. I meant specifically I could believe a baddie Dom that would have engaged in the orange possibility, so I think it's a good look that you didn't.

[Tangrowth]

My first ping of the day.

Timmer hadn't posted for about 24 hours

Boomslang asks timmer a question.

Timmer posts a mere 10 minutes later.

Unvote whoever I voted (on my phone, can't remember)

Vote Boomslang for now.

These timing suspicions are pretty much always meaningless. No offense, MM, but I've never found any of them to be even remotely telling about anything alignment indicative... ever. If you can show me otherwise, I'm all ears.

That's what everyone told me in Talking Heads wert Russ.

I was right then fwiw.

I hosted that game, and I cannot seem to remember this at all. What was that again?

[Tangrowth]

sig, all due respect, don't take my response as rude. It isn't intended that way. I just cannot possibly disagree with you more on that matter; it is unfathomable to me that anyone could think that the current activity for this game is bad for the town.

Furthermore, I didn't ask Boomslang for accurate or true reads. I find it suspicious that you are misconstruing my post as that, especially in conjunction with the fact that you say you don't like it but you don't mafia read it. I was trying to get a feel for him. I still am. I am with everyone. Reads cannot be even remotely accurate if no one pokes anyone else. I am trying to get reads on everyone I can; that's how you play the game of mafia. I think that's been a running theme in my posts, so for you to interpret my post the way that you did (saying that no one can have accurate reads) is outwardly misrepresentation or misunderstanding, and I'm inclined to believe the former at the moment.

But see here is the issue when does generating content turn into overposting which makes people less interested and more confused? I'm not sure if you're doing this now but it is a strategy you've employed in the past, it's day 1 and you already have 200 posts. I know town MP does this as well, but it is perhaps one of your best skills as a mafia member as well.

I don't like Scotty's vote on bwt or Sloonie's. He is a low fruit early on time and time again.

This response is fair, thank you. I'm not sure when a thread turns into that point; I think it's inevitably subjective and dependent on the actual content more so than the volume of it, but it's probably a bit of both. I personally feel like this has been a way more productive Day 0/Day 1 than usual, so I'm excited about it. You may perceive it differently.

I'm feeling tentatively better about you at the moment, but I'm still bothered by the way you twisted around the purpose of my asking Boomslang for his reads. Perhaps you just misunderstood what I was doing; if that's the case, I apologize for not being clearer. Otherwise, it reeks of yucky mud.

I just found it odd you expected him to have solid reads or really reads of any kind so early in the game. My second point about in that post was a more general one.

I didn't expect anything. I have been clear that I think this d0/d1 period has been a relative gold mine compared to usual d0/d1 periods in most games, but I didn't know exactly how Boomslang felt, and I was trying to get a feel for him, so that's why I pressured him.

I don't think you and I are seeing eye to eye at all on anything I've been doing so far. I'm not sure how to remedy that.

[Tangrowth]

There is content and false content, it's very dangerous when we are flooded with false content, so I'm always wary of people who tons. ALso I stand by what I said, how many accurate and true reads can you have day 1 to make a good list?

I don't understand this perspective. There's always false content... because mafia-aligned players are always in the game. It seems logical that the more information by which to analyze and try to determine whether that content is false would be generally better than not, yes?

[Sloonei]

A note on meta.

It's an overused tool that people often rely upon too heavily to their detriment.

But it should not be entirely dismissed. It has its times and places. In the end, correct gut reads often just come from 'this feels like what I'm used to from this player when bad'.

I want to second this. It is useful to be mindful of a player's usual style so we're not constantly jamming them up for doing their thang, but like I just said in my response to MP, most players are capable of faking their thang, so to rely solely on meta is a dangerous way to play.

[Ricochet]

[Tangrowth]

I'm like 5 pages behind. Trying to catch up. Just wanted to let y'all know that I'm still here.

Hi, LoRab!

Curious to hear what thoughts you have when you get caught up.

Hi! For now at least, I'm skipping those 5 pages. I don't have the time or energy to go back--so if anything happened I need to know about, someone please let me know!!

I don't have much to say. The day 0/1 conversation has been interesting, but I'm not sure I have any conclusions from it. At least not strong ones. I think i'm still wrapping my brain around the game.

I would say stuff happened. Not sure how to succinctly summarize it all though.

You don't have any conclusions from anything you've read?

I have 100 posts per page, so the number of pages you have remaining is a confusing metric for me, sorry. What is the last thing you read / where are you?

[Tangrowth]

- MP is still my strongest civ read so far which is a bit weird. Dude, when do we get to the point where we start butting heads? :P

It'll happen, I'm sure.