GY!BE Mafia [E.N.D.]

[Sloonei]

I accidentally committed myself to 3 mafia games all at once. Sorry for being disappeared.

I'm also going to be out of the house for most of the day tomorrow and will be nowhere near the internet when the deadline comes. The other two games I'm involved in are smaller and shorter than this one, so I shouldn't be distracted for too long. But in the meantime I won't be able to do my usual thing here, I apologize.

[Marmot]

SLOONEI

Godspeed

[LoRab]

First of all, I said I didn't necessarily judge those who voted for him, not that I didn't want to look at anyone who mentioned him. 2 diffrences there: 1 is the meaning of the word necessarily. The other is that bandwagons are often formed by baddies who do not vote for the victim of the bandwagon. So, while people that voted in one direction might not be getting my eye, those aren't necessarily the people that were doing the manipulating. Also, again, "necessarily." I haven't had time yet to read back on those posts, to see where I might find suspicion. So, yes, I don't have a complete read, but I'm leaving room for there to be more of a read in the future.

I agree that it's possible for players to manipulate the thread toward a lynch without directly participating in it. The INH lynch is something you've talked about a few times without following up on though, so I don't know that I can do much with that. You've spent a lot of time lately answering Sloonei and I, so I will recommend you simply get to your hunting task and produce whatever you produce. I'll judge from there.

If you stop giving me things to answer, lol. And yes, it's something I haven't gotten the chance to do. I've been sick all week and I've been busy at work when I've been able to be there. When I get onto mafia and I read up and there are multiple posts to answer, I then don't have time to go back and read. I will try to do that, but I'm not sure when it' going to happen. In the meantime, I'll keep playing the way I've been playing. You can judge me as you will. But I don't play the game as others recommend--I never have. I am doing the best I can--if that looks suspicious to you, I can't really do anything about that. Eye me all you want. I am civ.

As I said before, Mad Max was a different set up. So, no, I didn't have a problem naming who I thought was civ in that game. In games where there are baddies outside of the mafia, I tend not to name who I think are civ unless I have reason to do so. And yes, my retort was sharp, but Sloonei's poking had been bothering me--it felt very passive aggressive and I don't respond well to that tactic in general. And to go from poking questions to dramatic In case I die I suspect LoRab suspicion I admit annoyed me. Especially remembering that it came from a player who also nearly got me lynched day 3 in Mad Max. So, yes, I was annoyed. I admit it. But that doesn't make me bad.

What advantage do you feel the baddies enjoy in a setup like this one (with a baddie team and a rogue) when civilians provide civilian reads on one another? How does that help their cause?

It helps them by thinking through for them who the civs are. It's how I've been playing since nearly the beginning of my mafia career (I say nearly the beginning, because I was mafia my first game)--it's the set up I'm used to, with nearly always baddie teams and neutral(s)/indie(s) and/or multiple baddie teams. I have always been of the philosophy of not helping the baddies in the thread. It's just what I'm used to. I get that it's different from what you're used to. But I minimize sharing my civ reads.

I don't see it in any other way. He didn't even say he suspected me at all--then or any other time. And, it may not look like a civ responding to an unexplained vote to you, but it was exactly that. Sorry if my nonchalance bothers you.

I acknowledge that there's not much you can say in response to "that looks fake", so I don't know that this portion of our dialogue has much potential to progress.

I still don't see how it looks fake, but yeah, I can't really do anything about that. Do you really see his post, though, as "I suddenly saw reason to vote for LoRab, although I'm not going to mention her anywhere else"? and not as a forced vote? Because I really have trouble seeing it any other way as how I saw it. Also, I guess I'm in the minority in that I don't panic when one person votes for me, or even when one player suspects me. So, that may also play into how you're reading my reaction.

Sorry you don't like it. Yes, it was suspcicion. And no, it's not a silly thing, either way. Either it's a civ not acting in the interests of the town. Or it's mafia, posting about whom mafia should kill--when in fact they are killing the opposite. I don't see it coming from a civ-friendly perspective, thus I find it suspicious. That is my chief concern, as it is the most suspicious thing I have seen this game, in my personal opinion.

No need to apologize. :P

The highlighted portion is a meaningful detail which lends some substance to your read. That's a decent thing. I'm less thrilled that it's the item in this game thread which perturbs you most of all; it seems like easy pickings.

I'll try to come up with more complicated cases next time. Or maybe that should be in this color

[Ricochet]

Don't go any darker with that purple, I'm already squinting at it.

/just fwiw

[LoRab]

Don't go any darker with that purple, I'm already squinting at it.

/just fwiw

Yeah, I didn't realize how dark it was until after I posted.

[Marmot]

#savericoseyes

[Dom]

But if you can't tell-- I'm eyeing a bird pretty hard.

Are you, though? The last thing I see that you said re: BWT (I'm assuming you mean BWT?) was: "I think BWT explained himself somewhat adequately" That doesn't sound like "eyeing pretty hard" to me, or am I misunderstanding what you meant?

Actually, that's false.

Timmer said 'the last thing he saw that you said'.

So my question to you... did you post anything along the lines of what timmer said, that could have been the last thing he saw that you said? Or do you think it's entirely false, and you never said it.

I meant, "this isn't accurate in terms of how i feel about bwt. i did say the thing about his *slip* -- but both can be right."
let me be clear, i don't think timmer is bad. i think he is wrong.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Dom, what do you like about timmer which allows you to forgive the perceived error in his read?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Forward notice: I will miss EOD; I have plans right around that time. I'll need to decide on a final vote relatively soon.

[Tangrowth]

I'm so sorry for the significant dip in activity; my temporary abundance of free time has nearly all but vanished since I'm trying to get all this teaching and dissertation committee / topic formation work done before I leave for Cincinnati next week.

I'll be back within the next few hours to catch up.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Placing a vote for LoRab.

[Marmot]

Forward notice: I will miss EOD; I have plans right around that time. I'll need to decide on a final vote relatively soon.

Likewise, I've got to head to work right before EoD, so I likely won't be around.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Isolated thought regarding BWT:

I have been inclined to read him positively for what I perceive to be an atypical spike in his effort and contribution level. In my experience, when players exhibit this it's usually a matter of renewed motivation/vigor to play the town game and not an attempt to mask a bad alignment behind that effort. My perspective of timmer is similar in that regard: they're both attacking this game head on in a way I don't recall seeing recently if ever, and I like it.

[Tangrowth]

Will either of you be here in about an hour?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I could also consider voting for Scotty.

Spoiler: show

I'm way behind everyone. Like 12 pages behind. Looks like no one died?

Will Do my best to catch up.

I'm still not caught up. 5 or so more pages to read.. I see JJJ has a little case breakdown that I skimmed. Eventually I'll get around to answering it.

I never said my vote was forced. LoRab decided that. I have calmed my jets on a few people I had recently suspected. I'm actually feeling better about Golden, and Mp. I think BWT is still suspicious? Why? I forgot. But he said some stuff some some time ago that was phrased in a weird way that perked uo ym ears like Pluto. Sloon is on neutral ground. Slight mafia still on JJJ. I don't think he was faking his curse, I just think his curser was just unimaginative.

I'm way behind. Long day, may not get around to this until tomorrow at the earliest. Blech my mafia time where did it go???

To fall behind sometimes is understandable. Life happens. However, I don't get the impression Scotty has much urgency to involve himself in this game even as he makes the attempt to catch up. He has given us a live-track of his status (12 pages behind, 5 pages behind), but in the process of that catchup his productivity has been scarce. I would think a town Scotty would be grabbing quotes as he reads along and sharing some kind of thoughts instead of this sort of one-off neutral commentary on what he needs to do and a few half-reads.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Will either of you be here in about an hour?

Unfortunately no, and I actually have to leave now. A family member needs picked up in Cincy.

I'll be back for a short time prior to the deadline I expect.

[Epignosis]

People Are Voting Others to Punish Them for Inactivity or Logical Missteps
Coda: This is Lazy at Best, Disingenuous at Worst

[Marmot]

Will either of you be here in about an hour?

I just clicked Submit on my final project, so I am FINISHED!!!!!

Yup, I'll be around for the most part.

[Marmot]

I'm listening to Mladic. Does that make me bad?

[Tangrowth]

My afternoon is going to be busy too, which I wasn't expecting, so I'm going to speed-catch up now.

[Epignosis]

I'm listening to Mladic. Does that make me bad?

I Bet This Guy Just Named His Own Role

[Tangrowth]

timmer: the timing thing. Right now, it's the scummiest thing I've seen.

nijuu: her Day 2 vote. She voted Scotty because other people were talking about him, not because she read him as bad.
MP: He claimed that my accusation against timmer based on timing is historically inaccurate, but could not come up with an example (these two things don't go together)
sig: Similar to nijuu, his Day 2 vote.

Epignosis: I feel good about him
A Person: I like Epignosis's logic, in that AP would prefer to off a talkative player. Also, if I recall correctly, despite AP not posting much in thread, he is a pretty consistent presence in chatzy.
Boomslang: I've changed my mind about him
Dom: I like his work this game. He's not limiting himself to one-word questions and answers, but engaging with people (myself included) at length.

The fact that you're still suspecting me for this is bothersome.

[Tangrowth]

What's my townie status like right now? Do we all think I'm a Good Safe & Trusted Townie because I was silenced, or do we think I was pulling a gambit by faking my own silence?

I think it's unlikely you called for/accepted a silence from a baddie team mate on the first available day phase. I think you look the part in your hunting efforts and I liked how you emerged into Night 2 with Things To Say after the tape was pulled off of your mouth. It evidenced you didn't take a vacation and were paying some attention to the proceedings.

Some attention, but not enough. Not being able to get in people's faces, I kinda lost the momentum I had built up Day/Night 1 and I still haven't got it back. But I'm working on it now.

What event from Day 2 were you most frustrated about being able to comment on in the moment?

I don't know about "most" frustrated, since the entire experience was frustrating. There's really no good way to do anything with XCGSDFUREFBBDFN.

Early on Day 2 I wanted to grill Scotty about the post I discussed here. It's a bad look to me, though I did appreciate his later efforts to give Golden an avenue for communication. I was also annoyed to be unable to explain my votes for Epignosis or DrWilgy in a way that could make much sense to anyone. The latter wagon took off despite that though. I'd still like to hear from Dom regarding his decision to join that wagon.

Actually I can expand that to all of the other Wilgy voters (Golden, Epignosis, Dom, MovingPictures07): what moved you to participate in that wagon in the end? Your own feelings on Wilgy or the quotes I pulled trying to show my own suspicions? Something else?

I'm sorry for the brief answer, but basically a little bit from Column A and a little bit of Column B.

[Tangrowth]

what moved you to participate in that wagon in the end? Your own feelings on Wilgy or the quotes I pulled trying to show my own suspicions? Something else?

I was moved by epi's effort at PoE. If he is putting in that effort, the least I can do is work with it to find a consensus target. The fact Wilgy crystallised as that target, from my perspective, was probably mostly based in your quotes (which actually read like a compelling case to me).

Someone else asked why you, MP and I have ended up in the same place twice. I think part of it is a drive for a semblance of consensus as we have developed our play styles to think that way. I am rarely happy to end with my vote somewhere meaningless even if that person is my biggest suspect (the only exception I can think of is where I actively disagree with all of the viable options and don't have a preference of one over another).

I'd agree with this.

[Tangrowth]

Busier than I expected, my ISO analyses and further posts will have to wait for now.

Hopefully I don't get killed/silenced/insanified.

Furthermore, I'm not one to tell other players what to do with their role powers, but if a town-aligned role is the silencer or the insanifier, and that's you, I'd hesitate greatly before utilizing your power again tonight. Those powers have an overall negative utility when they are town roles.

what the hell is this post

What's your beef?

[Tangrowth]

Rockets Fall on Rocket Falls Once in the game, can drop a rocket that will block all actions throughout that phase.

Two Bits Says That Happened

Agreed.

[Marmot]

I'm listening to Mladic. Does that make me bad?

I Bet This Guy Just Named His Own Role

Now I'm listening to We Drift Like Worried Fire. Does that make me good?

[Tangrowth]

I'm inherently suspicious of anyone trying to catch me in semantic loopholes, which is exactly what I think marmot is trying to do.

I agree with this.

I don't see an MM who genuinely wants to solve the game at all.

[Tangrowth]

timmer: the timing thing. Right now, it's the scummiest thing I've seen.

nijuu: her Day 2 vote. She voted Scotty because other people were talking about him, not because she read him as bad.
MP: He claimed that my accusation against timmer based on timing is historically inaccurate, but could not come up with an example (these two things don't go together)
sig: Similar to nijuu, his Day 2 vote.

Ninja suspicion - factually incorrect

This is where nijuu actually placed her vote though.

Trice: Seems like Epi vote was a placeholder at first, but morphed into a "real" vote (as in, one that stuck) after responding to people's questioning the train. I see his reasoning (Epi's lack of on-topic posts, frustration at the song gimmick, etc.) although I disagree with it. Appears like a genuine vote (I wanted to be more eloquent, but I'm running out of steam after a long day).

Wilgy: Errrrrr...why are people saying Scotty's vote is the most suspicious on this train? I get that Wilgy's a nut, but Wilgy offers literally no reasoning for his vote except #lynchepi. So, yeah, that first question is a genuine question. Answer it.

Scotty: From reading his posts on Days 0 and 1 (according to the headings), it appeared like he would vote one of his "gut-baddie" reads (JJJ, Sloonei, actually votes BWT as a changeable vote), but votes Epi. I see that he said vote "something that matters," which I assume is a vote somewhere that already had votes, and he didn't go with INH because...well, actually, I'm not sure why, more than Epi. Gave a bit of a vouch as far as INH's content, but said it could've been suspicious by trying to look good? Anyway, his Epi vote, as others have said, is pretty weird. However, he is helping insanified Golden currently, which looks helpful and civ to me, barring weirdness behind the scenes.

So, I suppose what I get from that is Trice's vote looks the most genuine, Wilgy's absolute nonsense (not helpful), and Scotty's disingenuous. Discuss.

MP suspicion - daft. I came up with an example immediately (LC hounding me about what I did in 17 minutes in Bullets Over Broadway). Why does MP need to come up with a different one? Especially when your Timmer suspicion is the most contrived thing that this game has seen (and is my primary reason for suspecting you) - you completely ignored everything else timmer had said and done.

Sig suspicion - apparently 'similar to ninja', but the ninja suspicion was wrong, and how similar was it?

It just felt like you pulled three names taking a little heat out of the air and said whatever you could think of.

I'm not saying there is no instance of this. I accused MP because he called it historically inaccurate, while he himself couldn't offer an example.

Sig's was based on his final Day 2 vote, that being the similarity. How is my ninja suspicion wrong? Is she town?

It's not that I cannot provide an example. If it's really that freaking important to you, I will, but I think focusing on content within this game is much more pressing, don't you?

[Tangrowth]

Yeah, I'm conflicted. On one hand, A Person isn't evidently trying, short of asking the baddies to kill high posters which is actually the opposite of trying. On the other, is that indicative of him being bad? Or just unengaged? i don't like putting votes on people for acting weird, until that weirdness outweighs the cases in front of me.

He's definitely not engaged. I think the better question is "why isn't he engaged?"

Three options that I can see:

1) He's a civilian who is accustomed to playing in a brand of Syndicate Mafia from the pre-Economics era where games tended to move a little more slowly and conversation was engaged with a little less intensity. He doesn't feel like adjusting to this newer scene and is content enough to express his laziness brazenly as a contest to the style of play he is averse to.

2) He's a baddie who is accustomed to playing in a brand of Syndicate Mafia from the pre-Economics era where games tended to move a little more slowly and conversation was engaged with a little less intensity. He doesn't feel like adjusting to this newer scene and is content enough to express his laziness brazenly as a contest to the style of play he is averse to.

3) He's a baddie who was overwhelmed by the early pace of the game and decided to keep a low profile -- and now as the game has progressed he has felt a need to maintain that profile for the sake of consistency and filling the lurkbait role he's fallen into.

I am hesitant to give him too much credit for the possibility of #1 is that it can apply similarly from the other side (#2). I'll grant though that #2 would represent a careless approach that is less common in baddie team contexts where allies are known. That'd be a let down. #3 is at least a strategically logical notion, though it requires more of what feels like reaching (and it'd be a bit of a let down in its own right).

Having typed all that out, #1 actually feels the most sensible. It's all muddy because the dude has single digit posts, but it's something. I welcome other thoughts on this.

Knowing AP myself and having introduced him and the other PAers to mafia, I can say with confidence that the highlighted content is how he feels.

The problem is that he's basically trolling at this point. He's offered literally nothing of relevant in-game value. I'd preferred that he get replaced if he has no interest in playing the game. playing at an infrequent pace is one thing if he's going to try to provide some relevant content, but that's not what he's doing.

[Tangrowth]

Being very brief today, especially by my standards, but having now fully caught up I'll throw down a rainbow momentarily and cast a vote.

[Tangrowth]

Have I really not given a rainbow since right before Night 1 ended? Oh man.

[triceratopzeuhl]

The problem is that he's basically trolling at this point. He's offered literally nothing of relevant in-game value. I'd preferred that he get replaced if he has no interest in playing the game. playing at an infrequent pace is one thing if he's going to try to provide some relevant content, but that's not what he's doing.

agreed

[Golden]

I'm voting for marmot. I'm not sure that will change, but lets see what develops.

I also won't be around a ton today (or this weekend, for that matter), but hopefully I should be around sometime near EoD since I have to post the EoD happenings in Lost Again.

[Tangrowth]

MP's Near-End of Day 2 Rainbow - GY!BE Rainbow #8

Strong Town:
Golden
timmer

Moderate Town:
Epignosis
Sloonei
JaggedJimmyJay

Weak Town:
birdwithteeth11
Boomslang
nijuukyugou

Very Weak Town:
triceratopzeuhl

Very Weak Mafia:
Vompatti

Weak Mafia:
sig
A Person
LoRab

Moderate Mafia:
Scotty
Dom
Metalmarsh89

Strong Mafia:
N/A

I'm voting MM, but I'd like to be back in time for EoD. Unfortunately I have to go right now so I cannot elaborate on these at the moment.

[Golden]

MP, when you get back, I'd like you to elaborate on your Vompatti read

MP is strong town for me. That's almost what I'd call a derpclear.

[Marmot]

I don't really care if I get lynched. I've done what I can.

[timmer]

I'm not really liking the state of this lynch. It seems like the majority of the people with votes (AP, MM, Lorab) are primarily being voted for being goofy, unhelpful or not their usual game style.

One other thing I'm noticing is that every time in this game A Person starts getting votes, along come other sort of sudden, weak lynch trains on easy targets.

If no one is willing ti bite on my Dom thoughts, and of course they weren't airtight, I'll move my vote to AP, for now. I don't get a bad feeling from Lorab yet. MM could be bad, so I'm not going to defend him, but in the end, the way AP keeps surviving these early lynch trains against him is making my gut get the feels.

AP for me.

[Epignosis]

I'm not really liking the state of this lynch. It seems like the majority of the people with votes (AP, MM, Lorab) are primarily being voted for being goofy, unhelpful or not their usual game style.

One other thing I'm noticing is that every time in this game A Person starts getting votes, along come other sort of sudden, weak lynch trains on easy targets.

If no one is willing ti bite on my Dom thoughts, and of course they weren't airtight, I'll move my vote to AP, for now. I don't get a bad feeling from Lorab yet. MM could be bad, so I'm not going to defend him, but in the end, the way AP keeps surviving these early lynch trains against him is making my gut get the feels.

AP for me.

He Survived One

[Epignosis]

I'm not really liking the state of this lynch. It seems like the majority of the people with votes (AP, MM, Lorab) are primarily being voted for being goofy, unhelpful or not their usual game style.

One other thing I'm noticing is that every time in this game A Person starts getting votes, along come other sort of sudden, weak lynch trains on easy targets.

If no one is willing ti bite on my Dom thoughts, and of course they weren't airtight, I'll move my vote to AP, for now. I don't get a bad feeling from Lorab yet. MM could be bad, so I'm not going to defend him, but in the end, the way AP keeps surviving these early lynch trains against him is making my gut get the feels.

AP for me.

Also What the Hell

[Marmot]

I Saw Timmer with the Devil (and Other Love Stories)

[timmer]

Yes but the seems to be a move again. Ap has contributed nothing to the game. MM has contributed in a goofy way that hasn't been very effective.

If ap is at 3 votes and mm at 0, why suddenky go for him when ther is no way to say that ap is more worthy to see sick around.

It's a word time to start creating an almost tie.

[timmer]

Sorry on my phone nor

[timmer]

I'm open to argument though. How is ap more likely to be civ than mm?

[Marmot]

I'm open to argument though. How is ap more likely to be civ than mm?

I have a subjective view of this argument because I know my role.

[Boomslang]

I came up with similar ideas as well. But I voted for him (AP) already for 2 reasons:

1) I'm playing the Law of Averages here. Which would state there is a 66% chance AP is bad.

2) I want to see if it motivates him to come in here and give us some more substance.

Most of my reasoning is on #2 right now though. Because I do not have a super-definitive read on him yet. But re-reading Lorab actually made me feel better about placing a vote that way.

This only works assuming all three possibilities have equal probabilities. Which, as JJJ stated, is unlikely, given that #2 is historically uncommon among baddies.

I don't think timmer's Wilgy-shaped hole case is quite as strong as he thinks it is. Dom was consistently fatigued/indecisive and did offer some explanation, although feeling-based, about being moved by JJJ's attempt to communicate.

The only relevant/analyzable post of AP is this:

I don't have the time or energy to read all the nonsense people spew, a few well placed kills would improve the quality of the game.

Which I think, without further explanation/indication of targets, looks rather bad. Still not convinced, though.

[sig]

SO CLASSES ARE FINALLLLY DONE!

I only have three finals and one paper, worth 10% of my grade to go. Therefore I'll be able to increase my activity a good amount over the weekend when my paper is finished and all I'll have to do is study.


So I did a quick skim I'll be searching my name and then try to do a few ISOs before I get back to editing my paper, the way I see it is we have votes for
A person
MM
Lorab

I need to look over the Lorab case,
I suspect MM for his timmer votes which I feel like he never backed up, but that doesn'y seem to be why he has votes.
A person I didn't want to lynch, but he is being very very lurkery, so I'm torn. The reason i'm torn is that I've been lurking this game, but when I'm around I try to produce some amount of content and I vote, this doesn't seem to be the case with A person. Now from my own experience it seems that if people are on a mafia team or have BTSC they're more likely to be active so I don't think A person is mafia, but there is always that chance that he is mafia and not very active.

it also has occurred to me that we have two killing groups, the mafia and the SK. I don't think from the night 1 kill we can tell who performed that action and since one player submits the kill for mafia it could be that the kill submitter was absent. Or we could have had an afk SK, which A person would fit into. However, there is no hard evidence the kill didn't happen, it could have easily been blocked or the player who was targeted could have been protected so I don't think that is avenue worth pursing at this time.

[timmer]

Back from my outing now.

With 3 hours-ish to go, I don't like leaving my changeable vote on a dead end. Obv no one is following my logic on Dom, so I moved it.

I also, as I said, am not loving that the main cases seem built on a lack of effort, but with 3 hours left, that's what we've got. Unless someone wants to suggest a CFD on a new choice? I'm all ears, at this point.

But assuming that these are the choices I've got, I'll go with AP.

[timmer]

@Sig, I'd really like to hear your thoughts on Lorab, actually.

[timmer]

@Epig, you've been very good, this game, at telling people that their votes are being placed for crappy reasons. Who are YOU voting for, and why?