A Mafia of Unfortunate Events [END GAME]

[Epignosis]

I could get behind an LC vote.

Epi, can I take this to mean you lean civ on LC? Can you give me an idea why because I really want to believe he is, but I'm having a hard time believing it.

What is giving you a hard time?

I couldn't put my finger on it originally, but it's completely a tone thing. His response to weak suspicions read to me like a baddie.

I'm not responding to weak suspicions; I am responding to willful twisting of the truth.

I get the impression that LC's suspicion of DDL is contrived. I don't see any real conviction behind LC's determination of this conclusion.

Same here. He's using the exact type of hyperbole he's accusing DDL of employing against him.

Only LC is a civilian.

[Long Con]

I could get behind an LC vote.

Epi, can I take this to mean you lean civ on LC? Can you give me an idea why because I really want to believe he is, but I'm having a hard time believing it.

What is giving you a hard time?

I couldn't put my finger on it originally, but it's completely a tone thing. His response to weak suspicions read to me like a baddie.

I'm not responding to weak suspicions; I am responding to willful twisting of the truth.

I get the impression that LC's suspicion of DDL is contrived. I don't see any real conviction behind LC's determination of this conclusion.

Same here. He's using the exact type of hyperbole he's accusing DDL of employing against him.

Ok, then it should be extremely simple to find where I am straying from the truth. It's easy to find in DDL's posts, so have at it.

[Epignosis]

If you don't give your opinions, how are we supposed to know whether you are good or bad?

I gave my opinions. I didn't give why I hold those opinions.

Lemme revise my statement:

If you don't give the reasons behind your suspicions, how are we supposed to know whether you are good or bad?

That's not what you asked for. I gave my opinion. If the Mafia want LC out, let them kill him. Don't lynch him if you're good.

Too bad you already voted, so this conversation is moot.

[Quin]

Effective immediately, Sprityo is replacing Glorfindel.

And yeah, dead members of factions win too.

I have to wonder why Sprit replaced Glor. Glor was pretty active. I know glor has a hard time being mafia, so maybe it was too much pressure.

This is all I have to go on right now, unfortunately. So, *voting Sprit*

I think there are much more significant topics being discussed right now which make for better votes than than voting based on a flimsy hypothesis on why someone might have subbed out.

Okay I somehow managed to miss eloh saying this and I agree with quin. This is lazy playing, an easy out.

Homegirl is sick. She voted and went to bed. It's clear she isn't even reading the thread.

None of that tells me whether or not she's good or bad, but I wouldn't lynch her for "lazy playing."

I apologise if she really is too sick to do much more than what she has, but odds are she got caught up in linki when she wrote that post, so she would have read something. I just don't feel great about her vote, especially because I disagree with the case itself.






although i did just get four instances of linki so maybe I'm being unreasonable

[Epignosis]

I tell you what.

Better yet, yes. Let's lynch Long Con. Let's do this thing again where I say someone is good and they are. I like that game.

[Tangrowth]

Spoiler: show

Epi, can I take this to mean you lean civ on LC? Can you give me an idea why because I really want to believe he is, but I'm having a hard time believing it.

What is giving you a hard time?

I couldn't put my finger on it originally, but it's completely a tone thing. His response to weak suspicions read to me like a baddie. If civ I would expect something about wanting to know reasons, maybe a little protesting against a gut suspicion. Instead the response I've seen has been almost like don't make any sudden moves and maybe I'll get through it. I don't know. It's so weak a case, I'm finding myself in this weird place where my gut yells bad, but my brain can't bring myself to vote him because I can't see a good reason to. I'm finding it frustrating.

Argh, this game.

Anyway, I'd appreciate your view on LC, since you are wanting to vote for the people voting him I assume you lean civ and I want to know why. I need some reasons to help me sort this out one way or another.

LC: I want to believe it because I feel like I can't figure out the why of my own suspicion. It is exceedingly frustrating to me.

I think my opinion about LC is less important right now than your opinion on 21 people who are not LC. Even if you are torn on LC, there are eight Mafia. Eight.

Not sure about LC? Pick someone else to lynch. This is Day 2. Not Day 12.

One could argue that your post here, Epi, is unnecessarily unhelpful. You could have still said all of this and provided a quick opinion on LC yourself, which Daisy desperately wanted.

Let Daisy make up her own mind on LC. That's where I find out if she's good or bad. If I tell her what I think, then nothing is gained. She already guessed I don't think LC is bad, so why is she asking for more?

That's all well and good, but there are two main problems I have with your sentiment.

1. Townies can only uncover the mafia by interacting with them. Not only would your read potentially provide Daisy (and the rest of the players in this game) with your thoughts on LC, but also it would give all of us something by which to judge you, especially pending some sort of alignment revelation re: LC.

2. (And the point I personally feel more conviction in) Town is as much a team as the mafia factions are, and townies need to work together even more so given that they have no BTSC and are an uninformed minority. Judging by the roles in this game, townies have two mafia factions and a slew of independents to deal with, so I'd say that's of even greater importance than in a typical game. No one can obviously be trusted 100%, but if townies cannot cooperate with one another, then it decreases the likelihood that they can win. I've seen way too many games around these parts torpedoed because every townie behaved in a manner compatible only with the sentiment that he or she is an island and no one else is worth cooperating with and working with. I believe that attitude is a large part of why town loses games. Townies can work effectively together by developing town and mafia reads and questioning areas of disagreement. 13 heads are better than 1.

[insertnamehere]

I could get behind an LC vote.

Epi, can I take this to mean you lean civ on LC? Can you give me an idea why because I really want to believe he is, but I'm having a hard time believing it.

What is giving you a hard time?

I couldn't put my finger on it originally, but it's completely a tone thing. His response to weak suspicions read to me like a baddie.

I'm not responding to weak suspicions; I am responding to willful twisting of the truth.

I get the impression that LC's suspicion of DDL is contrived. I don't see any real conviction behind LC's determination of this conclusion.

Same here. He's using the exact type of hyperbole he's accusing DDL of employing against him.

Only LC is a civilian.

I'll bite.

Why is LC a civilian?

[Tangrowth]

I could get behind an LC vote.

Epi, can I take this to mean you lean civ on LC? Can you give me an idea why because I really want to believe he is, but I'm having a hard time believing it.

What is giving you a hard time?

I couldn't put my finger on it originally, but it's completely a tone thing. His response to weak suspicions read to me like a baddie.

I'm not responding to weak suspicions; I am responding to willful twisting of the truth.

I get the impression that LC's suspicion of DDL is contrived. I don't see any real conviction behind LC's determination of this conclusion.

I suspect DDL far more than I do LC.

Why? I admittedly read through DDL super quickly and without much in-game context.

[Tangrowth]

If you don't give your opinions, how are we supposed to know whether you are good or bad?

I gave my opinions. I didn't give why I hold those opinions.

Then you cannot rightfully get mad at the thread when other players are unconvinced of your opinions.

[Long Con]

I tell you what.

Better yet, yes. Let's lynch Long Con. Let's do this thing again where I say someone is good and they are. I like that game.

Right on man! Let's turn this thing up to 11 and ride the frikkin' dragon!

[insertnamehere]

If you don't give your opinions, how are we supposed to know whether you are good or bad?

I gave my opinions. I didn't give why I hold those opinions.

Then you cannot rightfully get mad at the thread when other players are unconvinced of your opinions.

[Spacedaisy]

.won gnivael m'I .heM .tluser a sa tnemhsinup yna tpecca ylbmuh lliw I ,esruc ym gnittegrof rof ezigolopa I ,FD

.dab m'I kniht ot eunitnoc ot eerf leef oS .niaga uoy tsniaga eiddab a eb ot elba eb reven lliw I esiwrehto ,emag ym rof doog emos od dluow em tuoba gnorw gnieb uoy dnA

]b/[]u/[98hsramlatem setoV]u[]b[

.tuo tihs siht erugif lla uoy tel dna etov ot gniog tsuj m'I ,ti kcuf oS .retupmoc ym ta gnirats naht dnabsuh ym htiw samtsirhC gnidneps eb rehtar dluow I dnA .CL tuoba ylgnorts erom leef I tcaf eht etipsed ,etov CL na rof naht etov taht rof nosaer dilos erom a evah I esuaceb MM no etov ym ssot ot gniog ma I ,emitnaem eht nI

.revetahW .emag retfa emag siht hguorht flesym gnittup ,ereh llits m'I tuB .emag eht ta kcus od I .erac t'nod osla I ,emag eht ta kcus I kniht uoy fI .erac t'nod I ,dab m'I kniht uoy fi oS .gnidnecsednoc ssorca emac ti esuaceb ffo em dessip ylknarf rewsna ruoY .rehtona ro yaw eno nosaer dilos a teg nac I sselnu ti erongi t'nac osla I tub taht ekil t'nod I dna gnileef gnimlehwrevo siht evah tsuj I nosaer e vah t'nod I taht si ereh melborp yM .ti wonk ot deen I ,gnorw ma I fi esuaceb yhw wonk ot ekil dluow I dna nosaer a evah tsum uoY .vic yllautca si dab si gniyas si tug ym nosrep eht kniht ot smees )uoy( vic eb thgim ohw eveileb I enoemoS .vic rehtona rof etov ot tnaw t'nod I ,vic a sa esuaceb ,ipE

!esruc nmad siht gnittegrof tpek I wenk I hcum tsop ot tnaw t'ndid I yhw yltcaxe si sihT .CL rednimer eht rof sknahT .KCUF KCUF KCUF

[Tangrowth]

Spoiler: show

Why LC?

He is around, he is paying attention at every big discussion, and he is posting his opinions, but not committing to anything. He spent a long time talking about how he didn't know who to vote for on d1, but then at the end he was okay with pushing the nearest wagon around.

That's not accurate, I wasn't "pushing the nearest wagon". You're straining to phrase things in a way that makes me look guilty of something which I am not. I decided to go with a low/non-poster, and sprityo was in the short list of folks that I was considering for that. Then ONE person voted sprityo, and I decided that was the best "low-poster" way to go... rather than pick a different one and split that slice of the vote up. It wasn't a wagon at that point - that's why your analysis is inaccurate. I would go so far as to say "intentionally inaccurate", but I may get back to that when I have more time to devote.

Number 1: Saying I was "pushing the nearest wagon". That makes me sound bad. It is also inaccurate. I was the second vote on a low poster, I had already stated that I wanted to vote a low poster and that I would prefer to pick the same low poster as other like-minded individuals.

And right after that, he was accusing Glorf of voting for bad reasons:

And there you go... vindicated again!

Damn, yo, what vindication? What if DDL is a baddie? Your vote would have tied them up, and maybe changed EVERYTHING. It's a scotche early to be proclaiming "vindication".

What if I was bad and you had "randomly" voted for me instead of spirit, LC? Wouldn't that have changed everything either?

Once again, you are intentionally shifting away from the real truth. I didn't accuse Glorf of voting for bad reasons. Glorf didn't vote. AND I didn't accuse him. Not in the conventional Mafia sense. I wasn't stating a suspicion of him, I was telling him that it was not cool or accurate to proclaim "vindication".

Number 2: He said that I was "accusing Glorf of voting for bad reasons". That's completely untrue in every way, and he's using it to try and make me look bad.

I just cared that you had enough commitment to the game to judge people but not enough to make more commited votes than the one you made. That came across as rather hipocritical.

You know what, we're coming back to this as well.

If I had been accusing someone else of not having enough suspicions, or not being involved enough to make an informed vote, THAT would be hypocritical.

Me called Glorfindel out on his "vindicated" claim was a self-contained disagreement with one post. There is NOTHING hypocritical about that. Maybe if I had also made a similar post earlier somehow wherein I claimed to be vindicated in my views, and THEN put Glorf down for the same.... THAT would be hypocritical.

However, none of that happened. Your assessment of "that came across as rather hypocritical" is yet another example of DDL intentionally twisting things to make me look bad.

Number 3: Calling me a hypocrite for invented reasons with, yet again, the intention of making me look bad.

Reason for suspicion: DDL is playing like a baddie who needs to make a case in order to not look bad, but has chosen to contrive and twist reasons because he thinks it will be easy to make people see me as bad. The absolute weakness and dishonesty of his points against me indicate that he is not approaching this from an honest perspective, hence, he is bad.

LC, I'm not inspired. The problem that I have with all of this is that you are the subject of DDL's posts. I'd say it's difficult to fairly assess how genuine a suspicion is when that suspicion is of one's self. I would know; I have a tendency to fall into the OMGUS trap a bit myself when town.

Can you not see a town-compatible reason for DDL's thoughts of you?

I cannot think of a town-compatible reason for him, three separate times, twisting the truth to make me look worse. It cannot be a genuine suspicion, because genuine suspicions are based on what actually happened.

Also... and I don't want to rock the boat or get you in trouble... but aren't you supposed to be posting backward, Spacedaisy?

Perhaps you two are misunderstanding each other? His interpretation of your behavior and how you see your own behavior (or intended your own behavior) could be different. I think that's compatible with the posts I saw from DDL.

I'm not saying I think DDL is particularly town, but I'm not seeing what you're seeing either.

[Tangrowth]

Holy fuck, INH and I are on exactly the same page right now? What world is this?

[Long Con]

.won gnivael m'I .heM .tluser a sa t....

FUCK FUCK FUCK. Thanks for the reminder LC. This is exactly why I didn't want to post much I knew I kept forgetting this damn curse!

Epi, because as a civ, I don't want to vote for another civ. Someone I believe who might be civ (you) seems to think the person my gut is saying is bad is actually civ. You must have a reason and I would like to know why because if I am wrong, I need to know it. My problem here is that I don't hav e reason I just have this overwhelming feeling and I don't like that but I also can't ignore it unless I can get a solid reason one way or another. Your answer frankly pissed me off because it came across condescending. So if you think I'm bad, I don't care. If you think I suck at the game, I also don't care. I do suck at the game. But I'm still here, putting myself through this game after game. Whatever.

In the meantime, I am going to toss my vote on MM because I have a more solid reason for that vote than for an LC vote, despite the fact I feel more strongly about LC. And I would rather be spending Christmas with my husband than staring at my computer. So fuck it, I'm just going to vote and let you all figure this shit out.

Votes metalmarsh89

And you being wrong about me would do some good for my game, otherwise I will never be able to be a baddie against you again. So feel free to continue to think I'm bad.

DF, I apologize for forgetting my curse, I will humbly accept any punishment as a result. Meh. I'm leaving now.

[Tangrowth]

.won gnivael m'I .heM .tluser a sa t....

FUCK FUCK FUCK. Thanks for the reminder LC. This is exactly why I didn't want to post much I knew I kept forgetting this damn curse!

Epi, because as a civ, I don't want to vote for another civ. Someone I believe who might be civ (you) seems to think the person my gut is saying is bad is actually civ. You must have a reason and I would like to know why because if I am wrong, I need to know it. My problem here is that I don't hav e reason I just have this overwhelming feeling and I don't like that but I also can't ignore it unless I can get a solid reason one way or another. Your answer frankly pissed me off because it came across condescending. So if you think I'm bad, I don't care. If you think I suck at the game, I also don't care. I do suck at the game. But I'm still here, putting myself through this game after game. Whatever.

In the meantime, I am going to toss my vote on MM because I have a more solid reason for that vote than for an LC vote, despite the fact I feel more strongly about LC. And I would rather be spending Christmas with my husband than staring at my computer. So fuck it, I'm just going to vote and let you all figure this shit out.

Votes metalmarsh89

And you being wrong about me would do some good for my game, otherwise I will never be able to be a baddie against you again. So feel free to continue to think I'm bad.

DF, I apologize for forgetting my curse, I will humbly accept any punishment as a result. Meh. I'm leaving now.

This is much appreciated.

[Tangrowth]

Well, I don't really have time to be here any longer than a few minutes. I can let LC go for now since I don't feel particularly strongly about a vote in that direction. I also like that sprityo 2.0 was in here before and contributing his thoughts. I can never read MM for shit and I don't have time to dig through an ISO of over 50 posts. I'd rather go after someone less active at the moment.

[insertnamehere]

Holy fuck, INH and I are on exactly the same page right now? What world is this?

https://www.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/e5245e ... a1bacdf0e4

[insertnamehere]

Holy fuck, INH and I are on exactly the same page right now? What world is this?

https://www.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/e5245e ... a1bacdf0e4

ADDENDUM: We will be on the same page, if MP doesn't decide to balls it up by doing a CFD on MM for who knows what reason.

[Tangrowth]

Reading through Dom's ISO, I'm not inspired to call him a town read. There's really not much there. I'm not a fan of the d2 sig vote.

What do folks think of him?

[Tangrowth]

I also think Elo's d2 vote is lazy, but not willing to lynch her for it.

[sprityo]

Well, I don't really have time to be here any longer than a few minutes. I can let LC go for now since I don't feel particularly strongly about a vote in that direction. I also like that sprityo 2.0 was in here before and contributing his thoughts. I can never read MM for shit and I don't have time to dig through an ISO of over 50 posts. I'd rather go after someone less active at the moment.

whoa sorry I am late, going to catch up when I get off work

Also,

Linki: I think he's justified to believe as such, but he's wrong

[Tangrowth]

Holy fuck, INH and I are on exactly the same page right now? What world is this?

https://www.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/e5245e ... a1bacdf0e4

ADDENDUM: We will be on the same page, if MP doesn't decide to balls it up by doing a CFD on MM for who knows what reason.

What is your read on MM?

[Tangrowth]

Well, I don't really have time to be here any longer than a few minutes. I can let LC go for now since I don't feel particularly strongly about a vote in that direction. I also like that sprityo 2.0 was in here before and contributing his thoughts. I can never read MM for shit and I don't have time to dig through an ISO of over 50 posts. I'd rather go after someone less active at the moment.

whoa sorry I am late, going to catch up when I get off work

Also,

Linki: I think he's justified to believe as such, but he's wrong

Is that soup's only post of the game?

[Tangrowth]

And sprityo, does that mean you are townreading Dom?

[insertnamehere]

Holy fuck, INH and I are on exactly the same page right now? What world is this?

https://www.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/e5245e ... a1bacdf0e4

ADDENDUM: We will be on the same page, if MP doesn't decide to balls it up by doing a CFD on MM for who knows what reason.

What is your read on MM?

Zilch.

I tried lynching someone I had no impression of D1.

Didn't go so well.

[sprityo]

Yes it's his only post

No, I feel Dom is laying low when I've seen him be much more into the game.

[Tangrowth]

Holy fuck, INH and I are on exactly the same page right now? What world is this?

https://www.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/e5245e ... a1bacdf0e4

ADDENDUM: We will be on the same page, if MP doesn't decide to balls it up by doing a CFD on MM for who knows what reason.

What is your read on MM?

Zilch.

I tried lynching someone I had no impression of D1.

Didn't go so well.

He has over 70 posts and you find nothing alignment-indicative?

Well, it is MM, so I'm not that surprised, but maybe I'm a little surprised.

Why would you oppose a CFD on him then?

[Tangrowth]

Why is Golden on Soneji? What's the deal there?

[insertnamehere]

hell, I'd rather DDL get lynched than some random dude who nobody has talked about, like doup.

Sorry, soup. See! He's so irrelevant I forgot his friggin' name.

[Tangrowth]

Too many questions. Not enough time. I need to vote.

[sprityo]

Merry christmas all.

I haven't read this day phase yet, so maybe Soneji has redeemed himself... but the sprit vote doesn't make him look any better to me.

Voting soneji, I look forward to my catch up on the other side of Christmas!

@MP His last post he made

[Quin]

Yes it's his only post

No, I feel Dom is laying low when I've seen him be much more into the game.

Dom's low activity seems to be carrying over from what I witnessed of his late GY:BE game. Granted, he was bad there, but I don't think he'd do that if he was bad in both games unless there were other circumstances.

[sprityo]

Er, are votes changeable?

Also we have 2 hours left in the day

[sprityo]

Sorry, 3 hours

[insertnamehere]

Holy fuck, INH and I are on exactly the same page right now? What world is this?

https://www.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/e5245e ... a1bacdf0e4

ADDENDUM: We will be on the same page, if MP doesn't decide to balls it up by doing a CFD on MM for who knows what reason.

What is your read on MM?

Zilch.

I tried lynching someone I had no impression of D1.

Didn't go so well.

He has over 70 posts and you find nothing alignment-indicative?

Well, it is MM, so I'm not that surprised, but maybe I'm a little surprised.

Why would you oppose a CFD on him then?

You know I'm skittish when it comes to reading people.

I think CFD's are counterintuitive, and are kinda rude when people can't change votes. It also gives all the power to solely the people who are around at the EoD. Which, as we saw in Lost Again, can be an easy recipe for a string of civ lynches.

[Tangrowth]

Fuck it, I'm voting soup. He's given nothing us by which to judge him thus far, I need to leave now, and I'm not feeling any of these other cases I've explored right now with my limited time and uninformed thread knowledge. I'd rather remove that unknown factor from the game. I have seen enough to make me hesitate more on the other wagons I've investigated, even LC, since it's possible he's genuinely tunneling.

See you all later. I'll make a more proper entry and attempt to inform myself as soon as I can.

[Long Con]

Perhaps you two are misunderstanding each other? His interpretation of your behavior and how you see your own behavior (or intended your own behavior) could be different. I think that's compatible with the posts I saw from DDL.

I'm not saying I think DDL is particularly town, but I'm not seeing what you're seeing either.

I don't understand how you can say that.

Look at where he accuses me of being a hypocrite. Tell me, in your own words, how his accusation makes sense. Feel free to reference my own analysis for comparison.

HOW can you just accept that he said I accused Glorf of voting for bad reasons?? I said that Glorf's "vindicated" post doesn't fly. That's all. That's nowhere near what he accused me of. It's not a difference of perspective. It's just plain misrepresentation.

[sprityo]

wait wtf what time is is dang website. I swear it's 3 hours

[insertnamehere]

Fuck it, I'm voting soup. He's given nothing us by which to judge him thus far, I need to leave now, and I'm not feeling any of these other cases I've explored right now with my limited time and uninformed thread knowledge. I'd rather remove that unknown factor from the game. I have seen enough to make me hesitate more on the other wagons I've investigated, even LC, since it's possible he's genuinely tunneling.

See you all later. I'll make a more proper entry and attempt to inform myself as soon as I can.

Aaaaaand we're not even reading the same book anymore.

It was nice while it lasted.

[DrWilgy]

So I'm back home from Christmas. Can someone politely help me get involved in the game before EoD?

[sprityo]

Sprityo is up for lynching with 3 votes, dig has two crappy votes on him and there's currently a discussion on LC vs DDL

[sprityo]

Ebeop: Sig*

[Epignosis]

I am willing to vote sprityo, LC, or DDL of those three names.

[sprityo]

I'm going to read both LC and DDL because my vote will more than likely go to one of them

[DrWilgy]

Vote spread is consistent and bueno. What are the cases for DDL, LC, Sprityo and Sig?

Also didn't we already off Sprit? What did New Sprityo do to warrant lynch 2?

[DrWilgy]

Yo Sprit, why should I not vote for you?

[insertnamehere]

Fuck it, I'm voting soup. He's given nothing us by which to judge him thus far, I need to leave now, and I'm not feeling any of these other cases I've explored right now with my limited time and uninformed thread knowledge. I'd rather remove that unknown factor from the game. I have seen enough to make me hesitate more on the other wagons I've investigated, even LC, since it's possible he's genuinely tunneling.

See you all later. I'll make a more proper entry and attempt to inform myself as soon as I can.

Aaaaaand we're not even reading the same book anymore.

It was nice while it lasted.

It always feels like these last minute switcheroos are targeted at people like Soup, who are inactive, folks like MM, who play randomly, or folks like DDL, who are super opinionated, often to their own detriment.

Never high posters who provide content regardless of alignment.

It's the same trap you fell into in GY!BE, and lynched me over, and the same trap you fell into in Lost Again, which I lynched you over.

[Epignosis]

Vote spread is consistent and bueno. What are the cases for DDL, LC, Sprityo and Sig?

Also didn't we already off Sprit? What did New Sprityo do to warrant lynch 2?

God help us.

[Jackofhearts2005]

From me personally or in Florida posts? Because I'm pretty sure we've established he was just having a bad time. Unless you're dig, and insist on following a meta

Also, *sig

dog*

Posting my intention to vote DDL per Quin's argument and Snow Dog's horrendous defense of himself.

That really surprises me a lot, after the post of yours which I just quoted above... which states that your town read of DDL just got townier.

DDL = bad because of a possible connection with Snow and misrep of LC plus pinging others

But that second one is better than Gloryo = bad cause replacement, Sig = bad cause his case on Gloryo is reaching or LC is bad cause not being committal enough. None of that is even slightly convincing to me.

Explain how this makes me bad? I'm quite confused with this logic.

Don't ask me. I don't think it's a good argument, either.