Felt Mafia 2 [ENDGAME]

[Long Con]

Juliets, I don't think any of those three are a good choice... posting on my phone from my mom's, be home in a bit for more.

[Mongoose]

Apropos of the Day 5 Location:



Hope you are all having a Sunday Fun Day! You still have 3-4 hours to complete the Labyrinth Game in the other thread! Get those answers in!

If everyone votes early, I'll be happy to end the Day earlier, so we can have the results at a time when most of us are still awake - totally up to you guys and what you want to do!

[juliets]

Let the record show, Epignosis has bussed a teammate once in his life, and it was Dragon D. Luffy on Day 1.

I figured I'd explore this comparison to be safe. I can actually recall another instance of Epi bussing a teammate: Scotty on Day 1 of Red vs. Blue. So I'll look at both.

~ In Guess Who, Epi was aggressive against him teammate DDL. In the process of that aggression though, he repeatedly called DDL a suspect alongside Black Rock, who was a civilian. In this regard, mafioso Epi left himself the space to either go through with the bus job or push a civilian instead depending upon how circumstances developed. He voted DDL on Days 1 and 2 (the latter resulting in a lynch). The two of them engaged in a lengthy exchange throughout, painting a cleaner image of distance to maximize the value of the bus.

This all contrasts this game in that Epi was narrower in his anti-DDL maneuver (we don't know the alignments of anyone else he has expressed concern about, but he was singular in his desire to lynch DDL anyway). There were also no distancing exchanges given DDL's absence.

~ In Red vs. Blue, Epi was more direct and singular in his Day 1 move against Scotty. He addressed Scotty directly with an accusation, pressed the issue a few times to incite a response (presumably as it was being discussed in BTSC), and left his vote on him. In this case though, the deadline was in the morning which I believe left Epi in a tough spot in terms of being present in the end. He was only barely there for a single post in the hours approaching EOD and didn't have many opportunities to move his vote. In this regard it may have been a sort of half-accidental bus job.

The directness of his accusation in this example matches more closely with what we see in this game. The timing of the vote is very different though, which is a crucial thing given that he essentially killed DDL himself in this game by placing the swing vote.

~~~

After review, I think calling Epignosis a teammate of DDL in this game is more conspiracy theory than reasoned thinking.

Just for good measure, I would add that I would not have thrown DDL under the bus if we were teammates simply because, if I recall correctly, Guess Who? was the only opportunity he's had on The Syndicate to be bad- I would want him to be able to play and have the experience. Even as I write this I feel sort of bad.

Sorry DDL the person. Not sorry DDL's role!

I reviewed Epi's DDL case and his swing vote against DDL, and the post above by JJJ that contrasts his style with DDL here against the time he bussed him in an earlier game. All this leads me to remove Epi from the list of people I'm considering voting for today.

[juliets]

Juliets, I don't think any of those three are a good choice... posting on my phone from my mom's, be home in a bit for more.

Sorry didn't see this before I posted. I'm interested to hear what you have to say.

[Sorsha]

Long Con- where do you stand on Quin today? Llama suspicion aside

[nijuukyugou]

May as well make one.

*votes thellama73*

So...

You think the Day 1 lynch was between a pair of teammates, and Wilgy chose to try to save their protector instead of either their blocker or Overalls.

So is that what you believe happened Day 1?

Yes.

I am inclined to believe that a mafia protector role exists for a reason. There is a secret for the civilians, there is a secret role, and there are prizes going out. It only makes sense that there is a threat to the mafia in another form than lynches, unless the protection extends to lynches the following Day, which, given that Mongoose is giving those out like Halloween candy, makes sense to me.

Well, we know the super secret role was Elo being an indie, win-with-whoever type. There is the potential for the secret civ role to be a vigilante who has the ability to kill once or twice in the game. But still, Jnco seems like a fairly weak role, except to maybe protect other teammates from blocks or silences.

It makes sense that Wilgy would be willing to sacrifice DDL in order to protect Llama, especially if Llama is Overalls.

I'm a little worried that if he is, lynching him will only undo a single strap, and we'll have to do it again in order to be rid of him for good.

Wasn't this cleared up by our beautiful host ages ago? Yes. Yes is was:

No. I find it odd that the mafia have the potential for two kills every night if all 4 are mafia. Don't you?

That wasn't my interpretation. I thought the mafia team's sole killer was the dude with the straps -- that roll kills every night as long as both straps are intact. My first guess is that this means this role must be destroyed twice (once for each strap).

Mongoose, if you're able to clarify anything about this that'd be swell. If not, okee dokee.

Overalls is one person and only needs to be killed once.

So double-lynching is not a concern. Have you forgotten, or are you trying to avoid getting a bad llama lynched?

Back to my own thoughts. Based on my last reads and weird feelings about llama, coupled with recent posts from LC's case about llama, I'm comfortable with a llama lynch. He agreed with my point ages ago that he should not necessarily be trusted based on the first day's results. Go back to my half-tinfoily post from last Day period, ignore the JJJ part (because oops), and see my thoughts.

Bam.

[Long Con]

Long Con- where do you stand on Quin today? Llama suspicion aside

Quin is the one I am assuming is the Denim Shirt.

Boomslang, it'd be ideal for you to at least answer to Quin's allegations.

oh hi, linki

I voted for you because I thought you were in the wrong about LC and being overly pushy/thread-controlling about it. If Quin calls that "disingenuous," that's his problem, not mine. I've stepped back from that position after your immunity claim, because think that claim was a civ move meant to get the town moving in more productive lynch directions, which it in fact did. My line about returning suspicion was meant to reflect that the lynch was not in fact tied in the poll—Quin had the vote lead. I had assumed people would thus go for Quin first, and then pursue other targets at their leisure, but conveniently he wasn't on the Day 3 poll.

Linki w/Quin: You're just mad because I found your other teammate.

Then put your damn money where your mouth is and prove it.

I'd rather you did vote me. The fact that I'm still alive is off-putting and I think that there's some serious shit going on behind the scenes. I'll even self-vote if it comes to that.

I'm either voting for llama, Boomslang or myself. I might not be an obligatory lynch, but I am a beneficial one.

These kind of posts are why.

Juliets, that's why not Quin.

[Boomslang]

Man, the JJJ kill has me in utter WIFOM knots over LC. It's an obvious setup move, but maybe that's a risk the baddies were willing to take to lift suspicion from him while pivoting to llama... Sigh. Honestly, I don't have any reason not to vote Quin again. Maybe I can get some momentum from people who don't want to lynch a silent llama?

Linki w/LC: It's possible he's Denim Shirt, but come on, "the fact that I'm still alive is off-putting"? Why would he include that if he knew he wouldn't be lynched after the vote? Trying to draw votes that could otherwise be used to lynch baddies is not a civ behavior.

[Sorsha]

Oh duh.... I knew that LC (about Quin)... but I don't think Quin is hinting that role.

This is a tough lynch. I don't like lynching people who are silenced (and dont suspect llama anyway so I won't be voting there). I haven't had any suspicion of LC until today, the jjj kill last night coupled with the push to lynch a silenced player doesn't make me feel good about him though.

Linki- I could go for Quin

[juliets]

I don't believe Quin is the denim shirt.

With that said, I did go back and look at his play in Mad Max. He bussed his teammate Eloh in that game which makes me wonder if he's bad why he didn't bus a teammate in this one. I need to refresh my memory on the timing of his votes in the baddie lynches in this game.

I agree Boomslang re:being tied in knots over the JJJ NK and what it means about LC.

[juliets]

Ugh, in looking at Quin's votes he tied up the alternate lynch candidate in both the DDL and Wilgy lynches. That's a bad look. Boomslang and Sorsha if you're still here what are you looking at when you see Quin as bad?

[Long Con]

I can't believe you guys are suspecting me based on the JJJ kill. He barely suspected me anymore. I could understand this more if he died when he was fiery gung-ho to take me down, but that was days ago.

If you guys want to lynch Quin I won't argue. If I'm wrong about his hinting, then maybe he's bad. If I'm right, then he win't die. There are worse results.

[Long Con]

Man, the JJJ kill has me in utter WIFOM knots over LC. It's an obvious setup move, but maybe that's a risk the baddies were willing to take to lift suspicion from him while pivoting to llama... Sigh. Honestly, I don't have any reason not to vote Quin again. Maybe I can get some momentum from people who don't want to lynch a silent llama?

Linki w/LC: It's possible he's Denim Shirt, but come on, "the fact that I'm still alive is off-putting"? Why would he include that if he knew he wouldn't be lynched after the vote? Trying to draw votes that could otherwise be used to lynch baddies is not a civ behavior.

Quin has had lots of suspicion all game. If he didn't get lynched by today, then his only ace in the hole is lost, useless. I can understand the angle of pushing the suspicion early in order to get off the hook.

I mean, jesus... the guy already survived one lynch.

[Long Con]

And Juliets, as for my non-suspicion of Epi... I can't really remember anything specific and concrete, I just remember being struck by certain posts and thought processes he's put forth as very Civvish. Would evil Epi jump on replacing Civ Eloh so sharply? Maybe. I just think he's Civ.

[juliets]

And Juliets, as for my non-suspicion of Epi... I can't really remember anything specific and concrete, I just remember being struck by certain posts and thought processes he's put forth as very Civvish. Would evil Epi jump on replacing Civ Eloh so sharply? Maybe. I just think he's Civ.

Yeah after I reviewed the events leading up to his DDL vote I moved him to my "not going to vote for" list.

[Boomslang]

Ugh, in looking at Quin's votes he tied up the alternate lynch candidate in both the DDL and Wilgy lynches. That's a bad look. Boomslang and Sorsha if you're still here what are you looking at when you see Quin as bad?

His voting record, combined with his devil-may-care attitude. But I've been pretty aggro against him all game, so just see my post history?

[juliets]

Ugh, in looking at Quin's votes he tied up the alternate lynch candidate in both the DDL and Wilgy lynches. That's a bad look. Boomslang and Sorsha if you're still here what are you looking at when you see Quin as bad?

His voting record, combined with his devil-may-care attitude. But I've been pretty aggro against him all game, so just see my post history?

Ok thanks, I have not reviewed your posts since you're on my "won't vote for list" so I'll do that.

[Epignosis]

Man, the JJJ kill has me in utter WIFOM knots over LC. It's an obvious setup move, but maybe that's a risk the baddies were willing to take to lift suspicion from him while pivoting to llama... Sigh. Honestly, I don't have any reason not to vote Quin again. Maybe I can get some momentum from people who don't want to lynch a silent llama?

Linki w/LC: It's possible he's Denim Shirt, but come on, "the fact that I'm still alive is off-putting"? Why would he include that if he knew he wouldn't be lynched after the vote? Trying to draw votes that could otherwise be used to lynch baddies is not a civ behavior.

Quin has had lots of suspicion all game. If he didn't get lynched by today, then his only ace in the hole is lost, useless. I can understand the angle of pushing the suspicion early in order to get off the hook.

I mean, jesus... the guy already survived one lynch.

Did he?

[Epignosis]

And Juliets, as for my non-suspicion of Epi... I can't really remember anything specific and concrete, I just remember being struck by certain posts and thought processes he's put forth as very Civvish. Would evil Epi jump on replacing Civ Eloh so sharply? Maybe. I just think he's Civ.

Replacing a what Eloh?

[juliets]

Epignosis, what are you thinking about where your vote might go today?

[Epignosis]

Epignosis, what are you thinking about where your vote might go today?

One of them there people I didn't say I wasn't gonna vote.

[Long Con]

And Juliets, as for my non-suspicion of Epi... I can't really remember anything specific and concrete, I just remember being struck by certain posts and thought processes he's put forth as very Civvish. Would evil Epi jump on replacing Civ Eloh so sharply? Maybe. I just think he's Civ.

Replacing a what Eloh?

Ah shit, yeah... Indy Eloh. The point remains the same - baddie Epi would only know she's non-baddie, and would almost certainly assume Civ due to the completely hidden nature of the secret role.

Man, the JJJ kill has me in utter WIFOM knots over LC. It's an obvious setup move, but maybe that's a risk the baddies were willing to take to lift suspicion from him while pivoting to llama... Sigh. Honestly, I don't have any reason not to vote Quin again. Maybe I can get some momentum from people who don't want to lynch a silent llama?

Linki w/LC: It's possible he's Denim Shirt, but come on, "the fact that I'm still alive is off-putting"? Why would he include that if he knew he wouldn't be lynched after the vote? Trying to draw votes that could otherwise be used to lynch baddies is not a civ behavior.

Quin has had lots of suspicion all game. If he didn't get lynched by today, then his only ace in the hole is lost, useless. I can understand the angle of pushing the suspicion early in order to get off the hook.

I mean, jesus... the guy already survived one lynch.

Did he?

The apparent lynch total had Quin with one more vote than JJJ. Any other assumptions you wish to tack on to that are your prerogative.

[Long Con]

Based on my last reads and weird feelings about llama, coupled with recent posts from LC's case about llama, I'm comfortable with a llama lynch. He agreed with my point ages ago that he should not necessarily be trusted based on the first day's results. Go back to my half-tinfoily post from last Day period, ignore the JJJ part (because oops), and see my thoughts.

Bam.

I thought I'd go and see those thoughts, and re-post them for everyone's convenience.

To Made's point, when I've made frustrated "just lynch me already" appeals in the past, I've almost always ben civ. It's something I see a lot less from baddies.

Someone has to be first, so I will place my vote on INH now. We will see if he really protected himself or not.

But wait...didn't you avoid voting for JJJ because he claimed he had an immunity? Why are you less inclined to believe INH? You were gung-ho against JJJ in several posts up until:

I have decided I don't want to lynch JJJ. While the objective evidence against him is very strong, my heart says he is good. He has remained so calm during all this, and I think a baddie with absentee teammates would be more on edge. His interaction analysis last phase was genuinely helpful. If he is bad, he is playing such a good game thta he deserves to live another phase.

Calling shenanigans on this. Everything about him looks bad, except your heart says he's good? JJJ doesn't play a panicked game. I've never seen the dude panic. And deserving to live another phase if he's bad?? What??

Care to be specific?

Okay. I've explained why I think one of your voting bloc is bad, and only one. I think the other baddie is one of the lower posters, likely Eloh 2.0 or Daisy. I think starting with one of your more active triumvirate will be more beneficial in terms of information for the civilians.

Quin has put up a spirited self-defense, and has weirded me out with calls to lynch him. I'm not usre a baddie would do this.

Long Con has been giving me generally good vibes all game and has been pretty helpful in terms of content.

You've been a wallflower since after Day 1. You characterize your playstyle as aggressive, but you seem depressed and apathetic. Even now, you seem resigned to your fate when only one vote has come in. Bitter, but not really resisting. You're not really making case son anyone. You only reluctantly came out of the woodwork to participate in the discussion when it became clear you were in danger. You make halfhearted claims about prizes. You seem unwilling to impart information to the civilian cause to be used after your death.

What reason do I have to think you're civ?

Wait, Quin has a "spirited self-defense"? I hardly call "lynch me, go ahead and do it!" a self-defense, let alone spirited. And you mentioned before that if you were in the position of the current baddies (possibly one active baddie with absentee teammates) that you would "also be apathetic and depressed" in the thread, but I don't believe that, and I don't think you really do, either (of most other people). That statement makes me think you're just digging for something against INH.

Your last vote makes you look good, but your recent posts stink to me.

I'm still not off of JJJ, either. That voting record stinks. And sure, most logic would say yes, there's no way he would claim to have an immunity and then allow his teammate to die, only to set himself to be lynched the next day. But this isn't most logic. This is JJJ, who should never be trusted. And now I'm seriously tinfoiling the both of you for now pushing this thread towards INH.

God dangit. I need a moment. And some feedback.

I do agree that Llama looks bad in this nijuu analysis.

Reading this again:

I have decided I don't want to lynch JJJ. While the objective evidence against him is very strong, my heart says he is good. He has remained so calm during all this, and I think a baddie with absentee teammates would be more on edge. His interaction analysis last phase was genuinely helpful. If he is bad, he is playing such a good game that he deserves to live another phase.

This is so damn sketchy and suspicious. If you think it's NOT suspicious, I would like to hear why.

[Long Con]

What are peoples' opinions of nijuu? I can't remember why she's generally seen as Civ. Is it voting records?

[Epignosis]

What would llama's objective be in posting that about 3J? I mean gosh, if you're bad and the pitchforks are raised against 3J, you don't fight that (well, maybe I would, heh). thellama73 could have left that alone (assuming his remarks were influential) and used their Night kill for somebody else.

[Long Con]

What would llama's objective be in posting that about 3J? I mean gosh, if you're bad and the pitchforks are raised against 3J, you don't fight that (well, maybe I would, heh). thellama73 could have left that alone (assuming his remarks were influential) and used their Night kill for somebody else.

(well, maybe I would, heh)

Ok, let's say you would, and pretend you did. What would your objective be?

[Epignosis]

What would llama's objective be in posting that about 3J? I mean gosh, if you're bad and the pitchforks are raised against 3J, you don't fight that (well, maybe I would, heh). thellama73 could have left that alone (assuming his remarks were influential) and used their Night kill for somebody else.

(well, maybe I would, heh)

Ok, let's say you would, and pretend you did. What would your objective be?

I appreciate the competition. The kills we've seen would suggest that the mafia has no time for head games.

[juliets]

What are peoples' opinions of nijuu? I can't remember why she's generally seen as Civ. Is it voting records?

Yes, she voted for both DDL and Wilgy in the early to middle range of votes.

[Long Con]

What would llama's objective be in posting that about 3J? I mean gosh, if you're bad and the pitchforks are raised against 3J, you don't fight that (well, maybe I would, heh). thellama73 could have left that alone (assuming his remarks were influential) and used their Night kill for somebody else.

(well, maybe I would, heh)

Ok, let's say you would, and pretend you did. What would your objective be?

I appreciate the competition. The kills we've seen would suggest that the mafia has no time for head games.

What about the idea that a baddie Llama would have known JJJ was Civ, and seeks cred for trying to save him?

[Epignosis]

What would llama's objective be in posting that about 3J? I mean gosh, if you're bad and the pitchforks are raised against 3J, you don't fight that (well, maybe I would, heh). thellama73 could have left that alone (assuming his remarks were influential) and used their Night kill for somebody else.

(well, maybe I would, heh)

Ok, let's say you would, and pretend you did. What would your objective be?

I appreciate the competition. The kills we've seen would suggest that the mafia has no time for head games.

What about the idea that a baddie Llama would have known JJJ was Civ, and seeks cred for trying to save him?

Has anyone given him any credit for that? Do you think llama would have assumed anyone would give him credit for that?

Your posts are giving me the impression that you are working from a conclusion and trying to find premises that get you there.

[Long Con]

What are peoples' opinions of nijuu? I can't remember why she's generally seen as Civ. Is it voting records?

Yes, she voted for both DDL and Wilgy in the early to middle range of votes.

Thanks, Jules.

Llama, however... I'm sure he's bad. I'm very confident that lynching him is the right move.

Now where have I heard that before?

I have come to believe that JJJ is definitely bad. Voted JJJ.

Oh right.

This is different.

How is this different?

I believed JJJ was bad because of something he didn't do. I still don't understand, and I will not until the end of the game. I believe Llama is bad because he looks really bad to me. The Llama sureness is based on much more than the JJJ sureness.

[Long Con]

What would llama's objective be in posting that about 3J? I mean gosh, if you're bad and the pitchforks are raised against 3J, you don't fight that (well, maybe I would, heh). thellama73 could have left that alone (assuming his remarks were influential) and used their Night kill for somebody else.

(well, maybe I would, heh)

Ok, let's say you would, and pretend you did. What would your objective be?

I appreciate the competition. The kills we've seen would suggest that the mafia has no time for head games.

What about the idea that a baddie Llama would have known JJJ was Civ, and seeks cred for trying to save him?

Has anyone given him any credit for that? Do you think llama would have assumed anyone would give him credit for that?

Your posts are giving me the impression that you are working from a conclusion and trying to find premises that get you there.

Credit doesn't have to be spoken/typed. It can live in the hearts of people who remember the way Llama tried to save a Civ without it being spelled out. And just because he seeked cred doesn't mean he got it. I never said he was successful - I was judging based on his desires, not on the outcome.

I have already come to the conclusion that Llama is bad, yes. And going back over nijuu's post strengthened that conclusion, instead of diminishing it. There is nothing illogical about that, you seem to be implying that I'm using some sort of backward reasoning.

[Epignosis]

Okay. So LC:

May as well make one.

*votes thellama73*

So...

You think the Day 1 lynch was between a pair of teammates, and Wilgy chose to try to save their protector instead of either their blocker or Overalls.

I am inclined to believe that a mafia protector role exists for a reason. There is a secret for the civilians, there is a secret role, and there are prizes going out. It only makes sense that there is a threat to the mafia in another form than lynches, unless the protection extends to lynches the following Day, which, given that Mongoose is giving those out like Halloween candy, makes sense to me.

So is that what you believe happened Day 1?

[Long Con]

You think the Day 1 lynch was between a pair of teammates, and Wilgy chose to try to save their protector instead of either their blocker or Overalls.

Wilgy WAS their blocker.

[Epignosis]

You think the Day 1 lynch was between a pair of teammates, and Wilgy chose to try to save their protector instead of either their blocker or Overalls.

Wilgy WAS their blocker.

You are correct. I got Jhorts and Skorts mixed up.

That does weaken my defense of the llama significantly.

[Long Con]

You think the Day 1 lynch was between a pair of teammates, and Wilgy chose to try to save their protector instead of either their blocker or Overalls.

Wilgy WAS their blocker.

You are correct. I got Jhorts and Skorts mixed up.

That does weaken my defense of the llama significantly.

Oh! Should I keep poring over Day 1 posts or is the point lost?

I should probably keep it up.

[Epignosis]

Well, I just noticed llama has three votes now. I don't have any interest in defending him when I had the role abilities wrong. I don't think I'll vote for him though. If he's bad, he's got a partner in one of you.

[Epignosis]

Let's do it this way: llama's bad. Who's his partner?

[Epignosis]

Damn I just realized too that I missed juliets' big ass post up there.

[Epignosis]

Apparently I missed more than that. I don't know how that happened.

[Scotty]

Damn I just realized too that I missed juliets' big ass post up there.

ass post

[Epignosis]

I mistook one of juliets' posts for another, that's why I missed a few in between.

I like nijuu's confidence there. I suppose I take a different interpretation of llama's posts, but I'm interested to see where this goes.

[Long Con]

Damn I just realized too that I missed juliets' big ass post up there.

ass post

juliets' big ass

[Long Con]

I mistook one of juliets' posts for another, that's why I missed a few in between.

Guess they all look the same when you don't really read them.

[Scotty]

Damn I just realized too that I missed juliets' big ass post up there.

ass post

juliets' big ass

i missed juliets' big ass

[Epignosis]

I mistook one of juliets' posts for another, that's why I missed a few in between.

Guess they all look the same when you don't really read them.

I read them.

Also, sorry juliets.

[juliets]

Damn I just realized too that I missed juliets' big ass post up there.

ass post

juliets' big ass

i missed juliets' big ass

[Epignosis]

If it's llama's ass y'all want, take it. I'm not going to vote there, but I'm not going to obstruct it. If he's bad, great. If he's not, then you lynched a silenced person who can't say one thing in his favor and should stand in the corner. I don't mind lynching someone who is silenced if there is good evidence to do so and/or only one mafia left, but I don't feel like I can check either box.

[Scotty]

So to @Sorsha and @Boomslang is a big reason you aren't looking to vote llama because you have a proclivity to not vote presumably silenced players?

I don't think llama could say anything here that would make me reach into my baseball bag and put on my practice glove any more. I kinda think I'm ready for the majors, tbh.

[Scotty]

If it's llama's ass y'all want, take it. I'm not going to vote there, but I'm not going to obstruct it. If he's bad, great. If he's not, then you lynched a silenced person who can't say one thing in his favor and should stand in the corner. I don't mind lynching someone who is silenced if there is good evidence to do so and/or only one mafia left, but I don't feel like I can check either box.

how non-committal of you.

I just want to make sure one or the other gets more a wider margin of votes in the case of vote manip