Phenon Mafia: ENDGAME - Snuffed

[Long Con]

Dyslexicon: Is it over? Your fakeslip plan? Should we keep discussing it, or drop it and move on?

What else did you want to talk about?

I wanted to see if, with a little prompting, Dyslexicon would step forward with some results... which is what I would expect to see from a plan like this.

[Marmot]

Dyslexicon's chances of being the Day 1 lynch pre-SlipGate ~~~ low

Dyslexicon's chances of being the Day 1 lynch post-SlipGate ~~~ high

If you suspect Dizzy, please tell me whether you agree with the above assertions.

I agree with the first one.

I think the second one could be split into two parts. Immediately post-Slip, the chances were high. At this moment, I think that's knocked down to medium.

Unvote

Vote Dyslexicon

[Silver Lantern]

Dys has not power claimed, right?

Change vote: Dyslexicon

Tell me more about this expectation.

Sure, but I think JoH covered it pretty well. I'll expand more in my quote of his post.

[Marmot]

Oops, that was JOH that brought up the point of Dizzy's reads, not Nacho.

[Fredwood]

Are power claims "kosher" here. I know they frown on info dumping, wouldn't this just be the reverse info dump?

[Marmot]

-This setup is a Clusterfuck.

[Long Con]

Are power claims "kosher" here. I know they frown on info dumping, wouldn't this just be the reverse info dump?

The kibosh on claiming and infodumping has developed over the course of years, and across several Mafia forums that, in a large part, led to The Syndicate's existence. Too many people were getting butthurt after a well-played baddie game was rendered useless after infodumps and roleclaims led to "the easy way out" to victory. It was a very long, drawn-out process of arguments and definitions and limitations that led to the general rule here.

However, this game bears none of the weight of those years, from what I understand. Power claim your ass off! This game seems to be on the cusp of a new revolution on The Syndicate, where, instead of having a blanket rule against infodumping for the community, different games can have different rules to follow regarding it. Personally, I think it's fantastic, and will spawn a greater diversity in games, pushing us all to broaden our Mafia skill set.

[speedchuck]

Can I compile a basically definitive proof as to why Dizzy's 'slip' was not a real mafia slip? I'm tired of people pretending it is.

If you want to lynch him for his behavior afterwards, then fine. I get that. But I'm off to construct a beautiful argument that consolidates all of the arguments that have been. Maybe throw it in my signature, wear it like a protest sign.

Ciao.

Previeweditishing: Power claims will do little good. In a game like this, everyone probably has power. At least the majority does.

[Silver Lantern]

It's very relevent, and I really don't like your answer. Had it proven helpful to you or the town a month ago, I could see the justification for pulling that stunt again, but as is, you're basically expecting us to buy that it was useless a month ago and so you decided to use it again in front of what I am understanding to be a bunch of mafia strangers to you, for what? The lols? I just don't see that as very believable argument to be honest. It is irrational, and I hate to reward irrational play.

About the only thing going for you right now is that you're here and active and responding to the pressure on you, which is a lot more admirable than the guys with 6 posts, fwiw.

I didn't say it was useless. It isn't useless and it hasn't been this game either. It's something that has the potential of making scum reactions stand out. Sadly, I don't feel I have very strong reads atm (for many reasons, one of them being that I know very few players in the game). Though I am voting Marmot atm because of his lack of interest in the slip. I also didn't like his retort to my vote on him. Anyway, for you to get this I believe you need to attempt a mental shift. It's not like I have this grand "method" I'm using. I'm not that planned out. I like opening up and create on D1 - what exactly is created and what conclusions that can be drawn from that is impossible to predict. I've been reading out all I can from everything in the thread all game day, it shouldn't be hard to see that. If I was using this as scum and getting flack for "not gaining enough reads from it", then surely I could just make shit up and pound on it.

You are playstyle policing here. This is not about reward or your validation. This is about finding scum. I did something, spontanious, out of curiousity, hopeful that it might reveal something - and I've been analyzing that and the rest of the thread to the best of my ability. You can call it bad or irrational all day long, and I can call you close minded and unnuanced, but that is not the relevant thing. What's relevant is, does it make sense for you to react this way as town? Does it make sense for me to do what I'm doing as town? If you're town and trying to fit me in your mold you will clearly fail to read me, it's obvious we don't have the same way of going about things. I'm over this conversation. Honestly my play is pretty obv-town and I'm not sure what's so hard to get about it.

Since you are now voting me, I want you to sum up your case on me. I won't respont to it, but I want it out there.
And no, I'm not going to role claim.

I like your response, and I'm not trying to playstyle police you. I'm cool with you playing however you want. This isn't about playstyle. This is about you making what I feel is a bad play, given your history with it. Had this proven successful in the past I'd probably hqve let you off the hook. That's why I didn't vote for you until you addresssed that, which basically amount to a "that's irrelevant" response when I feel it's extremely relevant.

I do not buy an explanation that amounts to "any irresponsible play no matter how irrational is valid because it has the potential to reveal something."

You can't expect that your actions will have no repercussions, and then try to hide behind "people are playstyle policing me, when your ploy backfires. I clearly voted for you wanting a power claim. If you're gonna dig your heals in the sand I have no problem lynching you. To me that just means you're either too stubborn to cooperate or you have something to hide. Neither of which is helpful to the town IMO.

[speedchuck]

Dizzy's slip options:

A. The slip was an accident. Dizzy covered it up by finding an example from a previous game.

B. The slip was on purpose to win town points.

C. The slip was on purpose, to cause an uproar on D1 and provide actual discussion, as a sacrificial catalyst. AKA For Teh LOLs


In option A, the following would have to be true:

-Dizzy happened to slip, as well as slip twice more in the same post: a. calling for lurker lynches early in the day, and b. claiming reads but not giving them. This is BLATANT slipping, so we'd have to assume Dizzy has no idea how to mafia.

-Dizzy happened to remember an insignificant post among all posts, one that didn't garner much attention. He did this while under pressure.

-Coincidentally, the mafia number in this game would have to be the same as the fakeslip from the other game (which, by the way, didn't reveal the number of mafia either)

-Coincidentally, the slip in this game would have to be the same as the type of fakeslip in the other game, but yet real

Possible? I guess. Not very likely at all. Imagine:
"Oh crap, I messed up. Luckily, I remember a time when I made an almost identical post under similar circumstances, but completely on purpose. WHAT A STROKE OF LUCK!"
This sounds ridiculous.


Option B is viable, though a stupid strategy, as we see how well that went.


Option C allows for the fakeslip to be a plan, without giving Dizzy too much credit for thinking everything out.

[Silver Lantern]

Dizzy hasn't come off smelling like a rose, but Silver Lantern is hurting my brain with their arguments. Every post that they make with a vote change spins my head like a top.
I like Soneji right now, and I'm okay with Dyslexicon for at least another day (His stunt spurred most of my reads). Anyone else that has a vote on them is someone I wouldn't feel bad about lynching.

What are you talking about? I've changed votes once.

[speedchuck]

Also as a note, I doubt Dizzy would feel the need to claim unless we had him above softlynch, which is currently 6 votes. Probably even up to eight votes.
Also note: In this game, it would do literally no good. This is a CF game. Role claims are probably garbage. A third of us probably have role claims that nobody would believe. I am one of them.

Behold my magic bag.


@SL
Oh, well then your initial vote for Soneji and your change vote for Dizzy. I guess it was just the two.

[Silver Lantern]

Dys has not power claimed, right?

Change vote: Dyslexicon

Tell me more about this expectation.

Though I shouldn't make a habit of speaking for others (it always makes me look bad, even if we're both town and even if I'm disagreeing), I'll field this.

It is very common for HCRealms lynches to revolve around believability of a claim.

Playing in an X-Men game and claiming Wolverine? You're gonna get a little slack. Claiming cop but you only have results on dead players (night kills generally flip on our board) or already trusted town? You're gonna get the side eye. It's generally bad form to lynch without allowing for a claim of some sort ("Wth? I'm Wolverine/the cop, you guys! Why didn't you wait before you lynched me?") and it's considered scummy to endure pressure without claiming ("Clearly, he's googling X-Men and trying to find a believable claim. Or else he's just avoiding claiming cause he knows there's a good chance he's be called out for lying").

I don't think claiming is going to be nearly as powerful/standard in this setup as Silver is used to.

Sure it is, it shows a willing to cooperate and having nothing to hide.

You well know the creedence that an early power claim carries. If no one disputes your town RBer claim, it's more likely that you're the town RBer. I know this format is new to most but it seems likely to me that we can expect there aren't a ton of duplicative powers.

[Strawhenge]

Unvote.

Upon catching up, I'm liking Dys's responses, and have truly reconsidered the realslip thing as poppycock. What's our time on the deadline? I haven't had much time to really slam down on this game...

[Jackofhearts2005]

Dizzy's slip options:

A. The slip was an accident. Dizzy covered it up by finding an example from a previous game.

B. The slip was on purpose to win town points.

C. The slip was on purpose, to cause an uproar on D1 and provide actual discussion, as a sacrificial catalyst. AKA For Teh LOLs


In option A, the following would have to be true:

-Dizzy happened to slip, as well as slip twice more in the same post: a. calling for lurker lynches early in the day, and b. claiming reads but not giving them. This is BLATANT slipping, so we'd have to assume Dizzy has no idea how to mafia.

-Dizzy happened to remember an insignificant post among all posts, one that didn't garner much attention. He did this while under pressure.

-Coincidentally, the mafia number in this game would have to be the same as the fakeslip from the other game (which, by the way, didn't reveal the number of mafia either)

-Coincidentally, the slip in this game would have to be the same as the type of fakeslip in the other game, but yet real

Possible? I guess. Not very likely at all. Imagine:
"Oh crap, I messed up. Luckily, I remember a time when I made an almost identical post under similar circumstances, but completely on purpose. WHAT A STROKE OF LUCK!"
This sounds ridiculous.


Option B is viable, though a stupid strategy, as we see how well that went.


Option C allows for the fakeslip to be a plan, without giving Dizzy too much credit for thinking everything out.

Explain how Option B is not a viable scum move.

Current players with heavy suspicion of Dizzy: Silver, Marmot, LC
Current players with heavy suspicion of Dizzy that is actually related to slipgate that has not caused others to suspect them: Silver

Current players defending Dizzy: Speedchuck, JJJ
Current players calling it null or giving a slight town read on Dizzy: Quin, Nut, JoH, Golden, Fred, Straw

I call that a net win if Dizzy is scum, especially considering the general trust placed in JJJ, Nut, Quin and Golden.

Additionally, there was never a danger that Dizzy would be lynched for actual slip as he had the exact same move from another game in his back pocket to link to.



Explain how Option C is a good town move.

The only gain the town has gotten from all of this is maaaaybe a lead on LC for going at it when he should have backed off ("It's the dishonesty of it that gets me.") and maaaaaaybe a lead on Marmot for not reacting enough to it. Both of those are fairly large stretches and certainly not definitive without a flip.

Do you think Marmot or LC are scum?

[Scotty]

I'm on page 15 but checking in to say I won't be around today per request of the girl. So if something was said of me after page 15, my apologies!

[speedchuck]

Deadline is in about 10 hours, I think.

We need to get 6 votes on a single person to guarantee a lynch. Preferably more.

We might want to talk about who we should vote to receive the new area's gift tonight, while we square the lynch away.

[Strawhenge]

speedchuck, is your only reason for voting for me because you think I was wrong about Dys? Or do you have something else?

[speedchuck]

Dizzy's slip options:

A. The slip was an accident. Dizzy covered it up by finding an example from a previous game.

B. The slip was on purpose to win town points.

C. The slip was on purpose, to cause an uproar on D1 and provide actual discussion, as a sacrificial catalyst. AKA For Teh LOLs

Option B is viable, though a stupid strategy, as we see how well that went.

Option C allows for the fakeslip to be a plan, without giving Dizzy too much credit for thinking everything out.

Explain how Option B is not a viable scum move.

Current players with heavy suspicion of Dizzy: Silver, Marmot, LC
Current players with heavy suspicion of Dizzy that is actually related to slipgate that has not caused others to suspect them: Silver
Current players defending Dizzy: Speedchuck, JJJ
Current players calling it null or giving a slight town read on Dizzy: Quin, Nut, JoH, Golden, Fred, Straw
I call that a net win if Dizzy is scum, especially considering the general trust placed in JJJ, Nut, Quin and Golden.

Additionally, there was never a danger that Dizzy would be lynched for actual slip as he had the exact same move from another game in his back pocket to link to.


Explain how Option C is a good town move.
The only gain the town has gotten from all of this is maaaaybe a lead on LC for going at it when he should have backed off ("It's the dishonesty of it that gets me.") and maaaaaaybe a lead on Marmot for not reacting enough to it. Both of those are fairly large stretches and certainly not definitive without a flip.
Do you think Marmot or LC are scum?

I literally just said that B was a viable scum move.
C is not really a good town move. It wasn't a great play. Wasn't a good mafia move either.

My point was: Option A doesn't really work. That's my whole point. If you want to lynch Dizzy off of option B, be my guest.

Reads on Marmot and LC:
Marmot: light scum. He hasn't contributed much (as you said, not much reaction, but even related to other things) despite being here a good bit. The whole 'drunk' thing early day one reeked of building up trust (who would trust themselves to post as scum while drunk, I'm totes town), but IDK. I've never seen that sort of thing in a mafia game.
LC is hard to read. I'm honestly going back towards leaning town for him, because most of my issues with him are just disagreeing with his logic. I don't know his meta, but he seems like the type of person that doesn't back off when his logic is challenged. Players agreed early on in game that he was a defensive player in that sense.

Unvote
Yeah Strawhenge, it was pretty close to my feelings toward Long Con. I have trouble differentiating scum behavior from logic that I can't understand. It hurts to look at motives. I'll vote someone in the next few minutes.

[speedchuck]

Dangit UNVOTE

[Jackofhearts2005]

Dizzy's slip options:

B. The slip was on purpose to win town points.

Option B is viable, though a stupid strategy, as we see how well that went.

I literally just said that B was a viable scum move.
C is not really a good town move. It wasn't a great play. Wasn't a good mafia move either.

My point was: Option A doesn't really work. That's my whole point. If you want to lynch Dizzy off of option B, be my guest.

Let's condense this.

You literally just said that it was a stupid strategy, too, based on how things went. Yet if it happened, it worked. Things went really well for Dizzy.

Please explain the discrepancy. What did you mean by "how well that went"?

[Silver Lantern]

Dizzy has not been under enough pressure to force a claim. Claims are a last-ditch effort to avoid lynch. We haven't gotten that close to lynching him. (or anyone, and we probably need to get there)
So yeah, I get the idea, but no, it's a weird reason for SL to vote. As with all of their other votes. I don't get it. There isn't enough support to pressure a claim or a lynch on Dizzy from what I've seen.

And there will never be enough support with that mentality.

I see you are a graduate from Soneji's "why would you want records of the votes even though you don't think mafia will vote together" School of Silly thoughts.

Seriously, I have never understood this mentality of "let's not wipe our butts because we're gonna have to poop again." I do not only place votes on people who are in danger of getting lynched. I place votes as a vehicle to build pressure on someone. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, but that doesn't mean I stop doing it, any more than I stop wiping.

I am placing a vote on Dyslexicon, because I am perfectly fine with lynching her for the reasons I have detailed above. And your post really reads as trying to derail from that. Why are you protecting Dys?

[speedchuck]

Dizzy's slip options:

B. The slip was on purpose to win town points.

Option B is viable, though a stupid strategy, as we see how well that went.

I literally just said that B was a viable scum move.
C is not really a good town move. It wasn't a great play. Wasn't a good mafia move either.

My point was: Option A doesn't really work. That's my whole point. If you want to lynch Dizzy off of option B, be my guest.

Let's condense this.

You literally just said that it was a stupid strategy, too, based on how things went. Yet if it happened, it worked. Things went really well for Dizzy.

Please explain the discrepancy. What did you mean by "how well that went"?

I'm defending option A as a stupid option. I don't think of Dizzy as being town. NULL maybe, light town at best (for his more recent posts).
I don't feel that most people (even those defending Dizzy) think of him as town. They just think that his 'slip' doesn't incriminate him.

I could be wrong, and maybe he did gain town points, in which case we should crack down on that.
If I'm right, and he's in the same (or possibly slightly worse) position compared to before the slip, then he didn't execute that grand plan very well. Stupid strategy, as I put it.
But this whole argument is wine in front of me, trying to figure out what Dizzy's intention was so that we can pick the opposite choice.

TL;DR
I don't think things went super good for Dizzy. Mediocre at best. Trying to guess his motive is Wine. Lynch him if you think he looks scummy.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Half rainbow:
GREEN
Jack
JTrips
Nut
Silver
Speedchuck
LIGHT GREEN
Quin
Fred
Golden
YELLOW
Marmot
LC
Scotty
Sig
*basically everyone else who hasn't posted much*
ORANGE
Sorsha
Nacho
Sonjei
Straw
RED
Dizzy

^Previous rainbow with a few gaps filled in

Revised rainbow:
Jack
Quin
Golden (deserves iso)
Nut
Silver
Marmot
JTrips (deserves iso)
Scotty
Fred
Sig
*basically everyone else who hasn't posted much*
Dizzy
Sonjei
Straw
Sorsha
LC (deserves iso)
Nacho
Speedchuck (deserves iso)


Kinda an ugly rainbow. Some players defending Dizzy made them go up. Some players defending Dizzy made them go down. Same for players attacking Dizzy. A lot of this is based on HOW they attacked or defended. So I don't expect this to be an accurate representation of the players in the end cause some of my top suspects are unlikely w/w teammates. It does reflect my willingness to lynch them at this stage of the game. No red because I'm not that confident in my reads, either. Most of the oranges only have a small number of posts that I dislike. Marking a few players to ISO later because they've moved significantly, which means I may be overvaluing certain posts. Anywho.



Anyone care to join me in making rainbows? It's valentine's day after all.

But seriously, day ends soon and a lot of us will be busy. Consensus building at this stage of the game would be good.

[speedchuck]

Dizzy has not been under enough pressure to force a claim. Claims are a last-ditch effort to avoid lynch. We haven't gotten that close to lynching him. (or anyone, and we probably need to get there)
So yeah, I get the idea, but no, it's a weird reason for SL to vote. As with all of their other votes. I don't get it. There isn't enough support to pressure a claim or a lynch on Dizzy from what I've seen.

And there will never be enough support with that mentality.

I see you are a graduate from Soneji's "why would you want records of the votes even though you don't think mafia will vote together" School of Silly thoughts.

Seriously, I have never understood this mentality of "let's not wipe our butts because we're gonna have to poop again." I do not only place votes on people who are in danger of getting lynched. I place votes as a vehicle to build pressure on someone. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, but that doesn't mean I stop doing it, any more than I stop wiping.

I am placing a vote on Dyslexicon, because I am perfectly fine with lynching her for the reasons I have detailed above. And your post really reads as trying to derail from that. Why are you protecting Dys?

My bad, I tend to look at the post with a vote in it for reasoning. I saw: "Vote Dys YOU SHOULD CLAIM, DYS"
Your earlier reasoning, regarding Dys using a strategy that didn't work last time he tried it (and how that points to him possibly trying to gain town points), is not bad.

The reason I am 'protecting' Dys, as you will see if I look through my posts, is that the idea that this was a realslip is bad. I don't appreciate votes based on that logic.
I rescind. Yours is fine. Marmot's, which I think is based on the slip being an accident, is not fine. Thus I will continue to harp on the low odds of the slip being real. It worked with Strawhenge.

Somebody please tell me what an ISO is.

[speedchuck]

Half rainbow:
Some players defending Dizzy made them go up. Some players defending Dizzy made them go down. Same for players attacking Dizzy. A lot of this is based on HOW they attacked or defended.

Dang.

Dizzy, you magnificient bastard. Your plan worked.

[Golden]

I don't think it matters how it went for dizzy. I think more relevant is how he expected it to go. I found him at his most genuine when he indicated surprise at the heat it took - and it makes sense to me that if it's normal in other places he wouldn't expect it to be abnormal here.

For that reason, I disagree with the assertion that it was likely that dizzy got lynched after slip (in his mind) and so he shouldn't have seen it as risky. Likewise, it doesn't seem likely that he expected to have to defend it and so he shouldn't have seen it as giving him huge town cred.

That's why I come to the view it's a marmot-style 'lols' play he'd do from any affiliation, and my own town read comes from his other content and not in any way the slip.

Because I haven't got a vote down yet:

SIG

[Soneji]

[VOTE: ] aubergine[VOTE:

Out of all the people I've had some suspicion on today, this one is the strongest. I had some doubts about culture clash but the more I see from Silver Lantern and JoH, the less his posts are excusable. They both have been in the thick of things, not using their unfamiliarity with the posters/style here to excuse their activity/opinions. posted his opinion on the Dys situation to then turn around and say his opinion should be ignored in favor of others. He posted that seeming scummy is a town method of surviving longer where he is from, which I can't see much of a town motivation for posting here. He at that point could tell that is not the standard here nor was there any suspicion on him at the time, so mentioning it could only ever serve as a preliminary defense for any future scum behavior from him or SL/JoH's. Preemptive defenses are near the top of my scumtell list.

Could still be culture clash but I'm betting my money that it is attempting to abuse culture clash to gain an edge.] aubergine

[Jackofhearts2005]

No w/w:
LC/Dizzy
Silver/Dizzy
Marmot/Dizzy
Silver/Sonjei
JJJ/Golden

Feel like I'm missing one or two, here.

FYI, everyone else should assume no Silver/Jack as w/w because if that had happened, the universe would have exploded.



Linki: An ISO is isolating a player's posts. That is, you might say you think Silver is bad on day 1 and Silver is good on day 2 with no significant Silver posts and no posts from you about Silver in between. I wouldn't notice normally but if I took your posts outside of the game and saw that you switched opinions based on nothing. This in turn makes you look bad. Alternatively, your last 5 posts might make you look bad but if I go back and look at your earlier posts, I see what looks like genuine scumhunting, which makes you look good.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Half rainbow:
Some players defending Dizzy made them go up. Some players defending Dizzy made them go down. Same for players attacking Dizzy. A lot of this is based on HOW they attacked or defended.

Dang.

Dizzy, you magnificient bastard. Your plan worked.

I mean....sorta.

Not for Dizzy but for me.

I stand by my assertion that there are better ways to get reactions than making yourself look bad.

[speedchuck]

Linki: An ISO is isolating a player's posts. That is, you might say you think Silver is bad on day 1 and Silver is good on day 2 with no significant Silver posts and no posts from you about Silver in between. I wouldn't notice normally but if I took your posts outside of the game and saw that you switched opinions based on nothing. This in turn makes you look bad. Alternatively, your last 5 posts might make you look bad but if I go back and look at your earlier posts, I see what looks like genuine scumhunting, which makes you look good.

Ooh, that's a good idea.

I'm assuming w/w means that they are scumbuddies, and thus w/w means they are not knowingly aligned?
I need to know more terms from here.

[speedchuck]

EBWOP: And I completely agree about there being better ways to get reactions. Hence the sarcasm color.

[Jackofhearts2005]

[VOTE: ] aubergine[VOTE:

Out of all the people I've had some suspicion on today, this one is the strongest. I had some doubts about culture clash but the more I see from Silver Lantern and JoH, the less his posts are excusable. They both have been in the thick of things, not using their unfamiliarity with the posters/style here to excuse their activity/opinions. posted his opinion on the Dys situation to then turn around and say his opinion should be ignored in favor of others. He posted that seeming scummy is a town method of surviving longer where he is from, which I can't see much of a town motivation for posting here. He at that point could tell that is not the standard here nor was there any suspicion on him at the time, so mentioning it could only ever serve as a preliminary defense for any future scum behavior from him or SL/JoH's. Preemptive defenses are near the top of my scumtell list.

Could still be culture clash but I'm betting my money that it is attempting to abuse culture clash to gain an edge.] aubergine

[VOTE:
To be fair, Silver and I are in the leader slots at HCRealms. Fred's in the pack with that skill gap between him and the leaders. No offense, Fred.

What I'm getting at is that in a typical game, you expect me and Silver to be in the thick of it immediately and Fred to not be.

I don't disagree with your evaluation in general. In fact, I like it. It would be a mistake to expect Fred to adjust to the culture clash quite as fast as the other realmsers, though. Not doing so may eventually get him lynched (and perhaps rightly as perhaps he is scum). I don't want to see it happen on day one.

I'd vote Silver right now if I thought he was scum. He's adjusted well enough. I'm not gonna lynch Fred as a "best option" cause he's not helping enough until say...day 3. Earlier of course if there are more concrete reasons to lynch him. Actual timetable depends on my suspect list.] aubergine

[Jackofhearts2005]

I don't think it matters how it went for dizzy. I think more relevant is how he expected it to go. I found him at his most genuine when he indicated surprise at the heat it took - and it makes sense to me that if it's normal in other places he wouldn't expect it to be abnormal here.

For that reason, I disagree with the assertion that it was likely that dizzy got lynched after slip (in his mind) and so he shouldn't have seen it as risky. Likewise, it doesn't seem likely that he expected to have to defend it and so he shouldn't have seen it as giving him huge town cred.

That's why I come to the view it's a marmot-style 'lols' play he'd do from any affiliation, and my own town read comes from his other content and not in any way the slip.

Because I haven't got a vote down yet:

SIG

Loving this evaluation of Dizzy's motivation. Makes me feel better about putting you green.

Why Sig?

[nutella]

Dys has not power claimed, right?

Change vote: Dyslexicon

Tell me more about this expectation.

Though I shouldn't make a habit of speaking for others (it always makes me look bad, even if we're both town and even if I'm disagreeing), I'll field this.

It is very common for HCRealms lynches to revolve around believability of a claim.

Playing in an X-Men game and claiming Wolverine? You're gonna get a little slack. Claiming cop but you only have results on dead players (night kills generally flip on our board) or already trusted town? You're gonna get the side eye. It's generally bad form to lynch without allowing for a claim of some sort ("Wth? I'm Wolverine/the cop, you guys! Why didn't you wait before you lynched me?") and it's considered scummy to endure pressure without claiming ("Clearly, he's googling X-Men and trying to find a believable claim. Or else he's just avoiding claiming cause he knows there's a good chance he's be called out for lying").

I don't think claiming is going to be nearly as powerful/standard in this setup as Silver is used to.

This is pretty weird to me. Of course I can't speak for what Dys is used to, but at least here this is not particularly common practice. Sometimes role claims happen in desperate situations, but often they're not even allowed/encouraged, so they're certainly not expected as a normal defense. And even if they were, I don't get why Silver expected as much from Dys now, since (a) there are only a few votes on them, so even if it was normal practice to claim when in danger of being lynched, it wouldn't make sense yet because they're not even really close to the danger zone, and (b) claiming makes very little sense in this game because it is a closed setup, we don't even know what the available abilities are. I mean as you (Silver) said above it could be worth it if you happen to have an easily recognizable ability to claim, but I'm expecting that most of the roles in this game are fairly unique (my only data points are my own and the gimmick Scotty hinted at having, but I get the feeling there are a lot of obscure abilities in this game). It just seems to me that there would be little utility in revealing your power if nobody will recognize it -- sure maybe we'd believe it wasn't just made up, but we'd have no way of corroborating it as a civvie role rather than a scum one. Idk, I could be wrong and there could be plenty of "normal" abilities in this game that would be worthwhile to claim if nobody else could counterclaim them, but it just seems odd that you'd so strongly expect Dys to claim at this stage (again with so few votes) so much that the lack of claim is vote-worthy to you. Probably just a culture thing, but Dys isn't from the same site as silver, right?

Or perhaps I misread the intent of your vote, and you were merely adding another vote so as to attempt to pressure Dys into claiming? I'm still so not used to this style of voting and I usually think of voting as a stronger committment/ultimate expression of suspicion and less used to it just being a temporary way of pressuring someone. I guess I have played several games with changeable votes now, and have tried to get into the practice of voting early to express suspicion that's subject to change to pressure people into defending, but in the past I was so used to saving my vote for as late as possible to ensure I went with my most confident choice. Anyway, was that the intent of your vote? Do you want Dys to be more in danger of a lynch so as to pressure a claim?

I just still can't see it being helpful. Again, as speedchuck said, maybe if Dys had enough votes to be getting worried, but that's not the case, and even then the closed setup means a claim is not a particularly foolproof defense.

Deadline is in about 10 hours, I think.

We need to get 6 votes on a single person to guarantee a lynch. Preferably more.

We might want to talk about who we should vote to receive the new area's gift tonight, while we square the lynch away.

A little less than 8 hours now actually. 10pm eastern (for me, 7pm pacific, idk where you are but that's in ~7.5 hours).

I'm still in favor of a Wilgy lynch.

Don't know about the item, but I certainly wouldn't turn one down. Though I am pretty afraid for my life given the amount of trust there seems to be in me :\

[Jackofhearts2005]

Linki: An ISO is isolating a player's posts. That is, you might say you think Silver is bad on day 1 and Silver is good on day 2 with no significant Silver posts and no posts from you about Silver in between. I wouldn't notice normally but if I took your posts outside of the game and saw that you switched opinions based on nothing. This in turn makes you look bad. Alternatively, your last 5 posts might make you look bad but if I go back and look at your earlier posts, I see what looks like genuine scumhunting, which makes you look good.

Ooh, that's a good idea.

I'm assuming w/w means that they are scumbuddies, and thus w/w means they are not knowingly aligned?
I need to know more terms from here.

w/w is wolf/wolf aka scumbuddies. They'd know they are aligned. I mean, the concept is based upon them knowing.

So if I say LC and Dizzy aren't w/w, that means that even if both are suspects, I don't think they are teammates. Expect one to shoot up my list into the green area if the other flips as mafia.

[speedchuck]

I'm assuming w/w means that they are scumbuddies, and thus w/w means they are not knowingly aligned?
I need to know more terms from here.

w/w is wolf/wolf aka scumbuddies. They'd know they are aligned. I mean, the concept is based upon them knowing.

So if I say LC and Dizzy aren't w/w, that means that even if both are suspects, I don't think they are teammates. Expect one to shoot up my list into the green area if the other flips as mafia.[/quote]
Gotcha.
Haven't played werewolf much online. Mostly mafia/witchhunt.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Left off Wigly

Jack
Quin
Golden (deserves iso)
Nut
Silver
Marmot
JTrips (deserves iso)
Scotty
Fred
Sig
*basically everyone else who hasn't posted much* aka Eloh and DFaraday?
Dizzy
Sonjei
Straw
Sorsha
LC (deserves iso)
Nacho
Wigly
Speedchuck (deserves iso)

[Silver Lantern]

[VOTE: ] aubergine[VOTE:

Out of all the people I've had some suspicion on today, this one is the strongest. I had some doubts about culture clash but the more I see from Silver Lantern and JoH, the less his posts are excusable. They both have been in the thick of things, not using their unfamiliarity with the posters/style here to excuse their activity/opinions. posted his opinion on the Dys situation to then turn around and say his opinion should be ignored in favor of others. He posted that seeming scummy is a town method of surviving longer where he is from, which I can't see much of a town motivation for posting here. He at that point could tell that is not the standard here nor was there any suspicion on him at the time, so mentioning it could only ever serve as a preliminary defense for any future scum behavior from him or SL/JoH's. Preemptive defenses are near the top of my scumtell list.

Could still be culture clash but I'm betting my money that it is attempting to abuse culture clash to gain an edge.] aubergine

[VOTE:

That makes sense in my mind because Fred, by default, plays sorta scummy. He's quiet, he holds his cards close to the vest, and I am guessing that his post style here is trying counter act that somewhat, though I agree his content has probably been a little lacking.

@Jack, green is townread, light green is townish? Yellow null read? And orange suspicious?] aubergine

[nutella]

Dizzy's slip options:

B. The slip was on purpose to win town points.

Option B is viable, though a stupid strategy, as we see how well that went.

I literally just said that B was a viable scum move.
C is not really a good town move. It wasn't a great play. Wasn't a good mafia move either.

My point was: Option A doesn't really work. That's my whole point. If you want to lynch Dizzy off of option B, be my guest.

Let's condense this.

You literally just said that it was a stupid strategy, too, based on how things went. Yet if it happened, it worked. Things went really well for Dizzy.

Please explain the discrepancy. What did you mean by "how well that went"?

I'm defending option A as a stupid option. I don't think of Dizzy as being town. NULL maybe, light town at best (for his more recent posts).
I don't feel that most people (even those defending Dizzy) think of him as town. They just think that his 'slip' doesn't incriminate him.

I could be wrong, and maybe he did gain town points, in which case we should crack down on that.
If I'm right, and he's in the same (or possibly slightly worse) position compared to before the slip, then he didn't execute that grand plan very well. Stupid strategy, as I put it.
But this whole argument is wine in front of me, trying to figure out what Dizzy's intention was so that we can pick the opposite choice.

TL;DR
I don't think things went super good for Dizzy. Mediocre at best. Trying to guess his motive is Wine. Lynch him if you think he looks scummy.

I, for one, do think Dizzy is town, based on their style/contributions. I do acknowledge there's possibly some WIFOM going on or I could just be easily fooled into trusting based on style, so they could be very confident scum, but for now Dys is on the green side for me.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

This is fine. Go ahead and lynch me it'll give you a new bump in the road when you try to read my meta.

If you really looked into me, you should notice that my all around posting has decreased over the past few days. Both in this game and others that I'm in. This is fine though and definitely not a sign that I'm busy.

This is an easy mislynch for baddies if anything. Regardless, don't have time to hint/defend atm. Looooooove y'all <33

Highlighted portion annoys me. I wouldn't call it suspicious, just annoying. Screw your meta, are you a civilian? Meh.

I don't care about your post count. You haven't done anything with the posts you've made. If you're civilian then I agree you're an easy mislynch. Make it hard.

[Jackofhearts2005]

[VOTE: ] aubergine[VOTE:

Out of all the people I've had some suspicion on today, this one is the strongest. I had some doubts about culture clash but the more I see from Silver Lantern and JoH, the less his posts are excusable. They both have been in the thick of things, not using their unfamiliarity with the posters/style here to excuse their activity/opinions. posted his opinion on the Dys situation to then turn around and say his opinion should be ignored in favor of others. He posted that seeming scummy is a town method of surviving longer where he is from, which I can't see much of a town motivation for posting here. He at that point could tell that is not the standard here nor was there any suspicion on him at the time, so mentioning it could only ever serve as a preliminary defense for any future scum behavior from him or SL/JoH's. Preemptive defenses are near the top of my scumtell list.

Could still be culture clash but I'm betting my money that it is attempting to abuse culture clash to gain an edge.] aubergine

[VOTE:

That makes sense in my mind because Fred, by default, plays sorta scummy. He's quiet, he holds his cards close to the vest, and I am guessing that his post style here is trying counter act that somewhat, though I agree his content has probably been a little lacking.

@Jack, green is townread, light green is townish? Yellow null read? And orange suspicious?] aubergine

[VOTE:
Yeah, basically. With Red being "I'm pretty sure this dude's mafia."

Easier to get 4/5s with Realms setups, you know? Plus our font colors on buggy.] aubergine

[Jackofhearts2005]

This is fine. Go ahead and lynch me it'll give you a new bump in the road when you try to read my meta.

If you really looked into me, you should notice that my all around posting has decreased over the past few days. Both in this game and others that I'm in. This is fine though and definitely not a sign that I'm busy.

This is an easy mislynch for baddies if anything. Regardless, don't have time to hint/defend atm. Looooooove y'all <33

Highlighted portion annoys me. I wouldn't call it suspicious, just annoying. Screw your meta, are you a civilian? Meh.

I don't care about your post count. You haven't done anything with the posts you've made. If you're civilian then I agree you're an easy mislynch. Make it hard.

That's what she said?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Voted North. I'm not caught up yet... you guys post way to much.

Please point out to me anything specific I need to address because I'm not sure I'll be reading everything in this thread

A response to this would be appreciated:

Spoiler: show

Returning to Sorsha:

I think some of the discussion of her content has become more specific than is necessary to qualify a meaningful read. That's not critical, as it's sometimes a natural result of deliberate, intensive digging in an environment of minimal content (as the thread was at the time). I would describe her post history as follows:

I see no immediate reason to judge her posts as being town-inclined. None of them have nudged me in that direction for any small reason. I do believe that there is space to describe her posts as mafia-inclined though, even if it isn't necessarily compelling. I would say that she has kept herself at a bit of a distance, even when she has been speaking directly to people (primarily to me). She has received questions and she has answered them, and she has made observations of game events -- but always with a tone of neutrality that does not readily promote further dialogue. This has her trending in the negative direction for me.

link for reference

[Silver Lantern]

Can we start to zero in on another target or two, besides Dys? It seems most people buy his play as sincere. I do like his answers to an extent and his presence after being questioned; his actions do seem townish. I just dislike his reasoning for the play, given his history with it, and I don't like the play in general.

But I am trying hard not to playstyle police over here...

I am leaning towards Sorcha for poor activity and I believe he's the one who made a comment about not bothering to read all of the thread.

[Golden]

I don't think it matters how it went for dizzy. I think more relevant is how he expected it to go. I found him at his most genuine when he indicated surprise at the heat it took - and it makes sense to me that if it's normal in other places he wouldn't expect it to be abnormal here.

For that reason, I disagree with the assertion that it was likely that dizzy got lynched after slip (in his mind) and so he shouldn't have seen it as risky. Likewise, it doesn't seem likely that he expected to have to defend it and so he shouldn't have seen it as giving him huge town cred.

That's why I come to the view it's a marmot-style 'lols' play he'd do from any affiliation, and my own town read comes from his other content and not in any way the slip.

Because I haven't got a vote down yet:

SIG

Loving this evaluation of Dizzy's motivation. Makes me feel better about putting you green.

Why Sig?

His early posts weren't inspiring and I'm waiting for him to come back.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

inspiring

Quin, he stole my word!

[Jackofhearts2005]

I don't think it matters how it went for dizzy. I think more relevant is how he expected it to go. I found him at his most genuine when he indicated surprise at the heat it took - and it makes sense to me that if it's normal in other places he wouldn't expect it to be abnormal here.

For that reason, I disagree with the assertion that it was likely that dizzy got lynched after slip (in his mind) and so he shouldn't have seen it as risky. Likewise, it doesn't seem likely that he expected to have to defend it and so he shouldn't have seen it as giving him huge town cred.

That's why I come to the view it's a marmot-style 'lols' play he'd do from any affiliation, and my own town read comes from his other content and not in any way the slip.

Because I haven't got a vote down yet:

SIG

Loving this evaluation of Dizzy's motivation. Makes me feel better about putting you green.

Why Sig?

His early posts weren't inspiring and I'm waiting for him to come back.

If he doesn't come back, are you gonna try to lynch him?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

This exchange with sig is giving me problems:

Spoiler: show

This little flippity flop especially struck me the wrong way.

What am I to do? I said something that was true to me at the time, and then when it was wrong I wanted to correct it.

In the same circumstance, what would you do?

I do agree with INH, those posts did seem strange, but would it be something the mafia would do? I don't think so.

What was strange about them?

The fact you said you didn't have the map then you said you did.

It could have been a PM slip true, but I'm not convinced that's the case. However, I don't see any reason why a mafia member would do this, I view it more as you trying to make it harder to narrow down the map holder and as of right now we have four(?) people claiming the map. Myself, MM, Golden, and JJJ.

So I wouldn't lynch vote you on that and I would find it suspicious for people to use that as a reason to vote for you.

Speaking of voting I should totally get an item tonight. Vote for me then.

Also I voted East since Philadelphia is on a east coast.

That he bothered to qualify Golden's map PM/no PM thing as "strange" while also batting it away as something not suspicious strikes me a pointless combination of thoughts -- i.e. I don't know why "strange" needed to be stated. At the same time I can't tell if this is one of this things with sig and words where he just voices a perspective a little awkwardly or if there's something to be concerned about.

If there's a separate beef to be stated about sig it's that his posts were item-centric when he was around. Hunting was nil/limited.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Yeah, that whole "strange" comment is very...interesting. Could be nothing, though.

*ducks*