Phenon Mafia: ENDGAME - Snuffed

#1151

nutella wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:Well crap, now there's 5 mafia alive and I have 0 scumreads.

Man this last page or so was painful to read. I'm not liking Silver's attitude/refusal to answer throughout that "clash." When Sloonei first asked why he didn't vote and he responded essentially "why would I" I was like "huh, ok that's another weird culture thing" and had a hard time wrapping my head around his perspective because I'm so used to votes being seen as required (@SL: in the vast majority of games here/that I've played, you can get punished and sometimes even modkilled for missing votes because it is seen as the most important measure of participating in the game)-- and also I just have always felt like it's sort of a moral imperative as well for town players to vote since it's their main tool in the basic mechanics of mafia as a game, and even if your vote is not going to make a difference in the lynch result it's generally expected that you use your vote at least symbolically to show/pressure who you would like to lynch (or even symbolically protest against a bandwagon or something). Deciding to abstain from a lynch vote because it "doesn't matter" is not common and I might dare say generally looked down upon, but I won't necessarily condemn you merely for that cultural difference because as you have said you should have the right to play the way you're accustomed to as long as it's within the rules of this particular game, and not be pressured into other ways of playing just because it's what we're used to.

What I might condemn you for, though, is how you handled the conversation from there on. Sloonei asked you a question, and you deflected it MULTIPLE times when it was really such a simple hypothetical that you could have easily given an answer for (you could have just said you would have voted for [whoever your top suspect was] if you had voted and that would be that). I did not feel good at all about the way you dismissed the question and aggressively kept asking for him to clarify it more when he already had. And I really didn't like when you said that you didn't want to dignify Sloonei with a response because you suspected him, and wouldn't answer him until he proved himself to you somehow. I don't understand why you wouldn't answer a simple question from someone just because you suspect them.

Anyway, I guess I could see this excessive argumentative-ness being your town style, but your assurance that it is your town style (along with your rather overdefensive response to Scotty) didn't entirely sell it to me.

For the record, I have a very good impression of Sloonei so far. I essentially gave him a clean slate because I didn't really think Sorsha was bad -- she never posted enough to get past a null read really; there was a point when she was a bit on the orange side but mostly because I was hoping for her to respond to stuff, and once she asked to be replaced I didn't suspect her for not responding because it was clearly just because she hadn't been able to keep up with the thread and so couldn't respond. Plus I generally tend to think that players who ask to be replaced are much more likely to be civ, so I usually give replacements BOTD. But I also always think Sloonei is town so I'll try to be cautious with my assumptions there and read him critically -- I've just definitely liked what I've seen so far.

Also, I liked all of JJJ's analysis, and might be interested in pursuing JOH for the reasons he's given. Might look at Jack's ISO later and see how I feel about him.

Perfectly fair criticisms regarding me and my play. I'm not ignorant to the fact that the playstyle here is different, but again, it's unreasonable to expect me to adopt to it in one day phase (and a little bit) of my first game here.

#1152

Curious of people's opinions of the kills. Did anyone feel Wigly was acting particularly scummy?

Sloonei to answer a question you asked last night, which I got a little lost in the shuffle over my arguing, I am suspicious of LC and INH and to a lesser extent Soneji. I particularly liked Strawhenge and NM8's playstyle, and I forget which one but one of them had a big issue with LC. I'd need to re ISO INH to recall what I didn't like about him but I tend to lump those two together and I hope it's not cause they both have blue names. I remember LC does.

Color names, confusing mafia reads since 2017...

#1153

I'm finishing up breakfast, but when I get to the office I'll ISO INH and LC.

#1154

Is there an easy way to multi quote for an ISO? I've been hitting the "in topic" link under people's avatar to see all their posts. That's how I've internally ISOed so far. If I'm trying to quote someone history, any suggestions?

#1155

Playing mafia by yourself sucks. All you jobless nerds must sleep in a lot...

#1156

Silver Lantern wrote:Is there an easy way to multi quote for an ISO? I've been hitting the "in topic" link under people's avatar to see all their posts. That's how I've internally ISOed so far. If I'm trying to quote someone history, any suggestions?

None of the fearless mods playing this game are around right now so I'll answer your question. I've never found a way to multi-quote from ISO's. If there is a way JJJ has kept it a super secret. I just open another tab and cut and paste. I apologize for this inconvenience. Let's add it to JJJ's list of things to fix.

#1157

Spoiler: show

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Stuff about the sig votes:

Golden (1st of 10) - First to voice suspicion of sig to my memory and first to vote accordingly. I can't blame him for maintaining his perspective late in the phase when sig's final contribution was essentially to plop a pointless vote on his face. I have no immediate beefs with this vote.

speedchuck (3rd of 10) - I kind of like this post. His comments about sig are more external than personal, but I think they're still meaningful. The approach is rather Slooneian, I think, in a good way. "Are there any good reasons not to lynch sig?" is the premier example of that.

JOH (4th of 10) - In his initial rainbow he had sig in the central yellow sector. Same story in the second rainbow. He questioned Golden for his sig vote when he initially placed it. I don't know why this post exists. He was critical of sig for his late arrival to the map claiming party. He does say there that this "factored in to his sig read already", which wouldn't seem to reflect in the rainbow positions or his brief dialogue with Golden. Compares him to Wilgy when he votes. The transition from "rainbow yellow" to "lynchable" isn't quite clear. The post in which he discusses map claims is the closest representation, which I would still assert results in an unclear transition. So that isn't ideal, and I could see potential for opportunism here.

Strawhenge (6th of 10) - Strawhenge voiced some confusion and then some suspicion about sig's behavior in the map claiming scenario. He ended up voting sig to help us reach the required 6 votes for soft lynch, but also voiced a preference for a Long Con vote given his previous ISO effort. I don't think this material looks especially good or bad, and I'll read Strawhenge at face value instead (I think he looks okay).

nutella (7th of 10) - She voiced some concern with sig and soon thereafter listed him very low on her rainbow. Starting here and in her next few posts thereafter she supported my suspicion of sig and expanded on her feelings. I don't think any of this looks alarming, and her content in general looks very town to me.

Dyslexicon (8th of 10) - Gave sig a little credit for a different tone to Dizzy's last experience on the site. He gave me a little crap for my reversal on sig. I think it looks authentic. Not a fan of a sig lynch, but prefers it over Wilgy. The perspective seems to worsen here. They voiced some interest, sort of in a CFD against Elohcin. Sub-null in a late rainbow. Agreed with my beef. I think the progression here looks fine, and I appreciate that Dizzy didn't care about holding consistent to their starting read. It should be noted that there may have been some amount of self-preservation here too; I don't recall the exact tally dynamic at this point.

DrWilgy (9th of 10) - I don't know if he's actually dead, so I'll check him too. His vote was participatory but not seemingly invested. "sig gon be pissed lol". This doesn't inspire confidence.

Quin (10th of 10) - He started by prodding his way into the discussion of sig, and soon after admitted he hadn't read the case. "sig is starting to feel like a runaway wagon". He participated in it 10 minutes later. This stuff makes me shrug, which is less good than some others.

~~~

Beyond the specific appearances of each vote relative to prior sig-related content, the positions of the votes within the wagons must also be considered. I tend to hate gigantic wagons like this because they're such a cozy place for scum to nestle their little heads, but I grant that it's a necessary component of a hammer game. I would call the votes that came after #6 essentially meaningless, because the soft lynch was secured. They're comparable in value to votes that weren't placed.

The sig votes that do the least for me are JOH, Wilgy, and Quin. The former two are more of an active problem though, while Quin is, like I said, a shrug.

I feel like this post displays a fair and understandable level of suspicion against me so I will address it in that light.

"This post" exists because I was trying to determine how serious Golden was. At the time, Sig had 1 or 2 short posts and little suspicion had been leveled against him. The deadline was approaching on Valentines Day. I took the Golden vote to be a "hey Sig" which I found potentially inappropriate because Sig might not answer. So then what? Unanswered iirc.

The map Spartacus thing was factored into my Sig read, making him slightly worse than a non poster. That's where I had him and why.

Sig transitioned from low yellow to orange with his non responses and Golden vote. He became like Wigly. Few posts. No posts that I liked. As stated in my rainbow, no red reads, making orange players acceotable. HCRealms tends to have votes time out for no lynch, which I loathe. So my Sig vote was opportunistic, but not in the way you mean. When my higher suspects (LC, Nacho) seemed unavailable, I pushed in the next best thing. This play style is evident in my "this post" as well as my early attempt to lynch Quin in Unfortunate Events.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:This is the most legible assembling of Nacho's reads available, that I can find. He worked off of my POE and eliminated further:

Spoiler: show
Nachomamma8 wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Bad Guys R In Here:

Quin
Long Con
JOH
DrWilgy
Sorsha
speedchuck
Scotty
Elohcin
DFaraday
Dyslexicon
Nachomamma

Yeah it's a huge list. Don't care.
Remove me and speedchuck and maaaaaybe Quin and you're three steps closer to solving the game!
Why is Marmot a townread?
Quin
Long Con
JOH
DrWilgy
Sorsha/Sloonei
Scotty
Elohcin
DFaraday
Dyslexicon

This is the list reduced to his recommendations. It is important to state that I don't think Nacho's reads were God's Gift to Our Mafia Game and all perfect, but given my belief that there might be discernible kill motive, it's a decent way to explore that.

I've taken my prior assertions and removed some more names. Quin's color is "fading" given the "maaaaybe", and I remove him yet per my spilled brain matter. Scotty and Long Con too. I dropped Elohcin and DFaraday because if they're bad I Then given my sig vote checks, I highlight the overlapping potential problem area (orange). I'd call those two prominent suspects right now when I coalesce all of my brain goop into one bubbling soup.

I feel like this post is not a fair one and it further degrades my early confidence in you.

The theory you are presenting is "Nacho was confident in his reads so maybe he correctly read a scummer and the mafia silenced him." This is followed up with not a list of Nacho's scum reads, but a list of YOUR scum reads, which includes Nacho, which Nacho then takes himself and a few others off of and jokingly declares the game closer to being solved.

So if your theory is that I killed Nacho because he was "confident" that I was scum based on one joke response to your self described "huge" list of suspects for which you then crossed out half of...why didn't I just kill you instead? Indeed, you caught me fair and square in Christmas Mafia when you replaced in for Sock. Additionally, your town credit was waining at the end of the day, making you an unlikely doctor target. So again, if I'm killing players who I'm worried are on to me and my scumbuddies, why would I kill Nacho instead of you?

Let's dig a little deeper. At the time of your post declaring me potential scum, I had no posts. Do you think your read on me prior to me making any posts holds weight? Do you think Nacho's jokey agreement with it holds weight?

You crossed off several players from your early scum list as not likely to kill Nacho (lol) on night 1 for meta reasons. I'm doing so, you've also POEd them from the list of Nacho's (your) suspects. Yet in truth, it is an 11 suspect list in a 21 player game. Do you think that anyone would be rightly worried about being on an 11 player suspect list? Or an 8 player one?

Let's look at Nacho's actual reads and interactions with me, which you've presumably read.

Spoiler: show

Actual scum reads from Nacho? Scotty and Sonjei. He also expresses confidence in the Dizzy train. Later, he walks back from Dizzy and Sonjei.

I give Nacho grief for the above post and we have a bit of back and forth during which Nacho expresses no real suspicion of either me or Wigly and admits that his overconfidence is in part an act/tactic and not necessarily a representation of his read confidence.

Spoiler: show

Based on all of the above, JJJ, I consider you placing me as your "top suspect" and your reasons for doing so to be disingenuous.

#1158

juliets wrote:
Silver Lantern wrote:Is there an easy way to multi quote for an ISO? I've been hitting the "in topic" link under people's avatar to see all their posts. That's how I've internally ISOed so far. If I'm trying to quote someone history, any suggestions?
None of the fearless mods playing this game are around right now so I'll answer your question. I've never found a way to multi-quote from ISO's. If there is a way JJJ has kept it a super secret. I just open another tab and cut and paste. I apologize for this inconvenience. Let's add it to JJJ's list of things to fix.

And copy and paste into word/notes.

The Syndicate is better about reloading what you typed than HCRealms but better safe than losing twenty paragraphs of reads/answers/questions.

#1159

juliets wrote:
Silver Lantern wrote:Is there an easy way to multi quote for an ISO? I've been hitting the "in topic" link under people's avatar to see all their posts. That's how I've internally ISOed so far. If I'm trying to quote someone history, any suggestions?
None of the fearless mods playing this game are around right now so I'll answer your question. I've never found a way to multi-quote from ISO's. If there is a way JJJ has kept it a super secret. I just open another tab and cut and paste. I apologize for this inconvenience. Let's add it to JJJ's list of things to fix.

I believe juliets is correct here. I also just open other tabs and cut/paste. But Spacedaisy and the tech mods should be able to look into whatever you all think will improve the site, especially once GoC is complete, and I'll be trying to assist primarily with technical stuff in whatever limited capacity as well because that's high on the priority list right now.

Please don't hesitate to send the Tech Mods a PM with these questions or any requests you have as well.

#1160

Scotty wrote:I have a feeling Silver is doing a lot of showing and could be putting on a show. I don't read him/her as town right now.

I wanted to suspect Golden or JJJ or something for talking a bunch, since it's always a nightmare of mine in trying to ISO them. I ain't nailing them on anything since I'm rather indisposed in Canada right now with limited wifi, but I feel as though some of the big talkers are circumventing. If my dad talked all the time about his beliefs when I was a child, I'd probably be in Juvie by 13 for doing something dangerous. I wouldn't know better.

Don't worry, my parents got divorced early on so I rarely see him now.

But hey, ya know? I think the most suspicious person here is Elo. reasons easily assumable.

Lynch: Elohcin

Yuck at all the content in this post.

Sorry bout yer dad.

#1161

JOH:

I don't interpret Nacho's reception of my POE reads to be a joke at all. Indeed he is accustomed to playing in an environment where that kind of methodology is very typical. I think he and I were on a similar wavelength in that regard. I didn't only want to present his suspects, I wanted to present a larger framework for his theory of the game. I think that's more likely to have driven his being killed.

Where you're correct is that Nacho did not state a confident scum read on you; I don't believe he stated one at all. It was his mindset of POE that I was working with, not his specific declared suspects. You were highlighted because of the overlap with my assessment of the sig votes. Based upon those two angles combined I see reason to suspect you, and I grant still that it's speculative work. I intend to do more.

Golden:

I didn't realize Nacho played in Monkey Island, so that's an important detail that changes a lot of what I had been thinking. However, this might help you to understand where my mind was at: do you believe I intentionally omitted that? I certainly didn't. And regarding the notion of a contradiction in my assessment of kill meta: I said it depends on the person; it also depends on the circumstance. What I was describing was a circumstance that'd be likely to influence the mindset of a vocal Syndicate regular on the mafia team.

One more point that I think you'll be more likely to resonate with than most: I would never kill Nacho on Night 1 in this game. I was really looking forward to playing with him, because in our only other game together (the MU hydra game) our GJJ hydra was vig-shot on N1. That's why I groaned to see him get offed so early in this one. He plays a lot like I do and I wanted to see more this time.

The Dry Flood · #1162

Golden wrote:Quin, you reminded me of something I found interesting at the time. Why did no one put down the hammer on sig?

It would have been easy to justify given dizzy was essentially asking someone to. I feel like this could be noteworthy. Eg, did anyone express suspicion of sig but hold back from the hammer?

A couple of instincts at play. The first is that a civilian would have been more likely willing to drop the hammer from an optics perspective, I think, because a mafia would be more wary of standing out. Does this make sense? People with more hammer experience than I, what seems likely?

I think the answer is dependent upon hammer experience too. A hammer veteran on the mafia team wouldn't care, and a hammer novice might. However, I think we arrived at the 10th vote within the final hour, and nobody placed the hammer because I asked for them not to. I don't think the civilians benefit from shaving 40 minutes from the day. It was still possible for sig to appear with defenses, legacy reads, or even a role claim.

#1163

Sloonei wrote:What were your personal feuds, SL? Who were you feuding with and how do you read those people?

I've been cattle raiding Silver for years and blaming it on the Badger clan.

Nobody gets my jokes.

#1164

Damnit.

#1165

2016 GOC wrote:
Golden wrote:Quin, you reminded me of something I found interesting at the time. Why did no one put down the hammer on sig?

It would have been easy to justify given dizzy was essentially asking someone to. I feel like this could be noteworthy. Eg, did anyone express suspicion of sig but hold back from the hammer?

A couple of instincts at play. The first is that a civilian would have been more likely willing to drop the hammer from an optics perspective, I think, because a mafia would be more wary of standing out. Does this make sense? People with more hammer experience than I, what seems likely?
I think the answer is dependent upon hammer experience too. A hammer veteran on the mafia team wouldn't care, and a hammer novice might. However, I think we arrived at the 10th vote within the final hour, and nobody placed the hammer because I asked for them not to. I don't think the civilians benefit from shaving 40 minutes from the day. It was still possible for sig to appear with defenses, legacy reads, or even a role claim.

Who is this? Were they here d1?

Answering your questions in a moment, Sloonei

#1166

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:My immediate perspective of Sloonei is positive for a reason I will share later.

I'll expand now that Golden has responded: I appreciated Sloonei's willingness to provide thoughts like these about Golden, against the grain. To jump into the game and express a few pings about someone who is generally trusted in this thread is decent evidence of Sloonei's genuine concern about those points and his desire to state them. Mafia are generally just less likely to behave that way, especially Sloonei who I would qualify as a very careful player.

I don't agree with the pings though. I think Golden is typically willing to invoke WIFOM to explain himself; it's a mindset I understand because I share it. I don't think WIFOM is inherently suspicious, and indeed I think many players are too quick to ignore that stuff.

#1167

speedchuck wrote:Who is this? Were they here d1?

That's me. It's a sock account I'm using to host the other game; I just posted with it in here by mistake.

#1168

I also want to explore the votes that stayed put on Dyslexicon through the end of the day:

Long Con, Marmot, Elohcin, INH

Could you all at least briefly explain why you felt comfortable leaving your votes there? I am inclined to view it with some suspicion because I don't know that you all were fair in your treatment of Dizzy in the post-Slip era. The "slip" itself caused a bit of an uproar, and then it was explained, and then Dizzy went on what I would call a lengthy and productive hunt through the remainder of Day 1. Their content was thicker and more substantive than the majority of other players in this game -- so what was it that warranted this vote if the slip was granted to not be a slip?

Elohcin, you said you were following the pack. I am pretty sure I have seen you do this exact thing before in a game where you didn't keep up, though I can't remember which one or what your alignment was. I'll try to find it.

#1169

Sloonei wrote:
speedchuck wrote: Dyslexicon gave us a subtle fakeslip that I, Golden, JJJ, Strawhenge, Long Con, and a few others argued vehemently about. Lots of reads to go about there.
What was your argument in all this? Who agreed/disagreed with you? I saw Dyslexicon's fake slip but didn't dig into all the discussion it spurred.

My argument was consistently that Dizzy's post was a fakeslip. Some people thought it was real. I got adamant about it.
For a while, I think Long Con, Strawhenge, and (for a very short time) Golden thought it was real.
Strawhenge disappeared for a while and came back with the opposite opinion.
Long Con gradually made more sense.
Marmot came in late, might still belive that this was a fakeslip?

Results: Some of these people came off smelling prettier than others. I'm still not entirely sold on Strawhenge, but I have good feels about Long Con at the moment.
Golden's short tension with me over the slip led to the next point.

JJJ and Golden got into an interesting spat, then JOH jumped in after to interact in interesting ways.
This is intriguing. Where did this happen? Golden gave me my first ping or two when I started reading the thread this morning.

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 80#p334787

This link has Golden pinging me for a post I made. We got it resolved, but the spat between JJJ and Golden started based on that. Definitely recommend reading that.

Fredwood was suspected by some people for no reason, blew up a bit about it. Towny-ish response in most estimations, I think.
I also remember slapping a town read on him.

Sig was lynched over inconsistency with early posts, general non-towny responses, and probably mostly because of low activity. Golden and JJJ led the lynch for the most part I think. I was an earlyish voter as well. Then others piled on.
This is called Syndicate 101.

Nachomomma was considered town, I think. He was probabvly a mafia kill target.
Wilgy was considered possible scum. He was probably a ??? target. (Not sure)

I recommend looking at the highlights above, at the very least. It's what I remember without a reread. A little vague, but good starting points.

JOH, we have had janitors as roles before, to deny town information. It's rare, and I forget which game I saw it in. I can try to look up the example later.
In more open setups, the whole game is usually janitor'd.
That's my experience.
It's standard practice on the Syndicate for nightkilled roles to be withheld, but like I think others have said, sprityo has incorporated much of this setup from a community that is not The Syndicate. So normal Syndicate rules aren't gonna be the norm here.

Thanks for the notes, speedchuck. Now, if you don't mind, I'd like to also ask you for a suspect or two. Who are you focusing your attention on to start the day today?

Scotty and Marmot are two that come to mind immediately. I need to ISO them before voting, right now it's just a gut feeling and a general bad feeling towards posts (especially Scotty's most recent [sorry about familty stuff, Scotty

]). Also happy to look at insertnamehere or Eloh (if they ever show up again).

There's probably at least one scum between JOH, JJJ, Strawhenge, and Golden, but I'm gonna wait until I have a little more info to try to ferret that out. The amount of anti-alignment in these is palpable, in my eyes. I will also be looking at this later in the day.

Will be providing more concrete reasons along with a vote pretty soon, one way or another.
Also, holy crap, are 48-hr days customary on this forum? I'm used to 120 hour days and 48 hour nights.

#1170

INH ISO going from earlier posts to later posts:
His first two posts are just fluff. Here is his #3 post:

insertnamehere wrote:
Scotty wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:North-east because I like a little of everything.

Lynch: Scotty

His support of me in the map business looked fake. Also I appreciate those who entrusted the map to me, I will do my best to live up the appropriate standard.
I'm sorry it looked fake.

It's because it was.

I voted for INH to receive the map
Cheers, although it was ultimately in vain as I am 100% mapless.

I will say that I dislike very much the fact that three different people all claimed to possess the map. I voted for MM, so his claim at least has some legitimacy in my eyes.

Going into Day 1, 3J and Golden both get the squinty-raised-eyebrow treatment from me. I'm not willing to vote for them yet (as we have 60 GODDAMN HOURS to do so), but I'm gonna be watching their posts.

Golden wrote:No map for me

I've never been voted to get anything like that. Maybe one day.

Golden wrote:I wouldn't have chosen to say this in a vacuum, but since I already said I didn't get the map...

I did get the map. I was just impatient and assumed the PM had gone elsewhere.

It doesn't feel massively helpful, but it does enable me to turn the compass directions on this poll (and others) into specific locations. If we go to a location that turns out to be favourable, I might be able to help us get back there. It looks like you can't get everywhere from everywhere, though. For now, it's meaningless to me.

Thanks to those who trusted me. It genuinely is the first time I've been elected to get one of these! I assumed it had gone to Jay.
This little flippity flop especially struck me the wrong way.

Didn’t like him throwing shade at 2 folks who appear pretty townie at this point (up top), and I disagree that Golden’s post being flippity flop is bad as protection of the map holder seems ok to me at face value (in the below portion). Putting aside the theory someone mentioned of the mafia doing it to scare off potential other townies from doing it.
Here is his post #4:

insertnamehere wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:INH:

What do you suspect may have been the nefarious motivations for three people (now four) all claiming to have the map? In particular, what worries you about Golden's flip-flop in that discussion?
I feel like the reason is patently obvious: to control the conversation and influence where people go. I don't think it's too big of a leap to think that the mafia has info about certain destinations leading to certain effects. I could see at the very least one scummeister fake-claiming just to gain credibility.

3 out of the 4 top posters have claimed to have special info, and we know only one is telling the truth. That's enough to make me start to sweat a little about some possible misleading.

As far as Golden's flippity-floppity is concerned, if he was being honest about the chain of events, I would have done the same thing. It's just not something I'm prepared to take at face value right off the bat, when he could be lying, once again, for credibility or because someone in BTSC advised him to change up his story.

I'm not calling it a slip-up, but it is as Golden said, a series of unfortunate events. I'm just open to the possibility of it being a fictional one.

I feel it is more likely that mafia would stay quiet and “pretend to have the map” unless the actually got the map. Why draw unnecessary disprovable attention to yourself if you’re scum?
Post # 5:

insertnamehere wrote:I have no problem with people lying in order to protect the person with the actual map.

The part I have a problem with is fake-claimers taking votes away from the person with the REAL map, causing us to go places we don't want to go.

This feels like a really forced argument to me. The kind of thing a scummer would say to validate their questionable play to be honest. Especially when this turned out to be a non issue and when we can openly discuss and see who is voting where on the poll.
Post # 6:

insertnamehere wrote:MM, Golden, and 3J all want us to go to a different destination.

Only one of them will benefit the civilians (assuming whoever has the map is a civilian).

That's a problem.

Why is only 1 destination beneficial? Why is any destination beneficial? Don’t like these leaps of logic (Hi Soneji, what’s an inference) without any evidence or reason to think otherwise. Do we know that 1 site and only 1 site is beneficial? I don’t think so unless I missed something, which is possible, but I will assume it’s not until proven otherwise.
Post # 7:

insertnamehere wrote:
Long Con wrote:
insertnamehere wrote:MM, Golden, and 3J all want us to go to a different destination.

Only one of them will benefit the civilians (assuming whoever has the map is a civilian).

That's a problem.
I think you're inventing a problem where there isn't likely to be one, and you're suspecting people for it. This seems like a false way to have an opinion.

[VOTE: ] aubergine
[VOTE:
Would you care to be specific in your complete discrediting of my posts, or do you expect to just say "nuh-uh," throw a vote my way and hope someone else bites?] aubergine

[VOTE:
Given that I don’t like LC either, this is interesting, but placing an initial vote on a mafia mate is not unheard of if you don’t think the train will gain traction.
Post # 8] aubergine

insertnamehere wrote:
Golden wrote:
insertnamehere wrote:[VOTE: MM, Golden, and 3J all want us to go to a different destination.

Only one of them will benefit the civilians (assuming whoever has the map is a civilian).

That's a problem.] aubergine
[VOTE:

I don't see any reason to presume that particular options will benefit a particular faction at this stage.] aubergine
[VOTE:
I don't see any reason to presume that the direction poll is completely irrelevant and cannot benefit either the civilians or the baddies.] aubergine

[VOTE:
Reads like argument for the sake of argument. Don’t like it. I tend to do this, so I can see where this position could come off hypocritical.
Post #9?] aubergine

insertnamehere wrote:
nutella wrote:[VOTE: I trust JJJ the most, so I'm voting for northeast.] aubergine
[VOTE:
Yes, 3J is a great civilian. In general.

What makes you think he's civilian in this specific game? What makes you think Golden and MM are less clearly civilian?] aubergine

[VOTE:
Perfectly valid questions to ask, to his credit.
Post #10:] aubergine

insertnamehere wrote:[VOTE: Caught up.
Not sure whether I find the people jumping on Dys for his "slip-up" or the people letting Dys slide on through more suspicious.
More analysis needed there.] aubergine

[VOTE:
Non-committal so let’s see if he carries through with the “more analysis” later.

Post 11 is inconsequential.
Post #12:] aubergine

insertnamehere wrote:
Long Con wrote:
insertnamehere wrote:[VOTE: Would you care to be specific in your complete discrediting of my posts, or do you expect to just say "nuh-uh," throw a vote my way and hope someone else bites?] aubergine
[VOTE:
Does it have to be one or the other?

If you need me to explain further, I can do that. Your first real post of the game was to cast doubt on the map-claimers. I happen to think that, if any map-claiming is going to happen, then it's a good thing to have a couple of other dudes covering the claimer's tracks. So, right away, you're going after guys I thought looked more townish.

Then I thought about your reason. They're suspicious now for something you imagined they might try to do in the future. WTF? Does not compute. How about waiting to see if one of them tries to do what you say before squinting at them with your eyebrow thing?

And why so hesitant to cast a vote?] aubergine
[VOTE:
All three claimers chose a different direction to go, and we're all voting on that subject, so I thought it was relevant to point out that only one of them is being honest about the correct direction. This is something which all three claimers have already done, not something in the future.
I also expressed a little worry that the fake claimers could simply be aiming for credibility. I assume this is the part that made you glitch out and stop computing.
I'm always hesitant to cast a vote, especially on Day 1, the bane of my mafia existence.] aubergine

[VOTE:
Here they are diffusing the “map holder” argument somewhat. This exchange doesn’t feel particularly useful.
NEXT Post:] aubergine

insertnamehere wrote:
Long Con wrote:
Quin wrote:[VOTE: If he's referring to 3J, marmot and Golden specifically, all of them had already claimed. I don't think controlling the conversation is something baddies 'will do', rather I think it's just a constant approach to the game. I don't really see it.] aubergine
[VOTE:
He's not talking about claiming, he's talking about them controlling/influencing the direction we take based on them being the map holder. Which, if it were going to happen... well, it would make more sense to keep quiet about it and catch them in the act, rather than blurting it outright and making sure it doesn't happen.] aubergine
[VOTE:
I'm like Tom Cruise in Minority Report. I'm trying to stop crimes BEFORE THEY EVEN HAPPEN.

But seriously, if I suspect civilians are being misled, I'm gonna say so. I'm not one to hold back until someone screws up, and complain after the fact.] aubergine

[VOTE:
Seems like a townie enough approach, but I can see a scummer making an assertion like that.
ANOTHER post:] aubergine

insertnamehere wrote:
Nachomamma8 wrote:[VOTE: There was some concern that claiming to have the map could paint a target on people's backs, so a civilian claiming map when they don't have it obscures who has it and thus protects the civilian with a map. I don't like your push on JJJ/Golden for a couple reasons: 1) it's likelier than both of them have the map than Marmot even though you talked about voting Marmot; multiple people talked about voting JJJ and Golden makes a good target by rep alone, 2) it's an extraordinarily shallow thing to hammer on that has nothing to do with alignment which is something I think you're aware of.] aubergine
[VOTE:
Once again, yes, a person with the map could theoretically provide cover from the real map holder. They could also draw in-thread credibility away from that person.

Look at it from this theoretical perspective: let's say that a bunch of scumbuddies decide to all claim the map in order to "protect the real map-holder," when they're really discouraging everyone but the real map-holder from stepping forward. Then they can dispose of him/her. Not saying that's what's happening, but it's an example of ulterior motives for claimers.

1) The only vote that I for sure know is my own, and I voted for MM. Therefore, he's the one I'm disposed towards believing. I believe it was Scotty who said that he stated in-thread he was voting for 3J, but later took it back and said he really voted for someone else. Yes, 3J and Golden seem like the obvious SUPATOWN (translation = tryhard) choices, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're the ones with the map.

2) You're an extraordinary shallow thing to hammer on. I think it's a game-relevant fact which could mean something down the road. I pointed out as much, but people kept harping (or hammering) on my posts about it, and even suspecting me for it. So, I had to discuss it even more. Frankly, I'd like to move onto other topics. But, if people keep asking me about it, that's where my attention is going.] aubergine

[VOTE:
The “scumbuddies all claim to have the map” argument is so devious that INH is setting off siren gifs... What a scummy thing to say. I had not even fathomed that until he said it. Doesn’t necessarily make him scum, but man, what an evil thought.
Last post of relevance:] aubergine

insertnamehere wrote:[VOTE: vote dys

ah humbug. Thought I would have more time to look more heavily into Dys and Sig than I ultimately did, so this is more of a last second "Hey, I'm here too" vote.] aubergine

[VOTE:
I know Sloonei said posting a meaningless vote is useful for something or another, but to me, this seems like, “hey I’m scum and know that Sig isn’t scum, so let me get some town cred by placing a vote on someone else and then cover my tracks by giving a reason of why I am doing it,” which just comes off as forced.
Okay tahts basically it. This may be the first and last cut/paste ISO I do. This is for the birds…

Heh, looking at the preview post my responses seem real small but w/e.] aubergine

#1171

speedchuck wrote:There's probably at least one scum between JOH, JJJ, Strawhenge, and Golden, but I'm gonna wait until I have a little more info to try to ferret that out. The amount of anti-alignment in these is palpable, in my eyes. I will also be looking at this later in the day.

Is there a particular reason you place these names together in this group?

speedchuck wrote:Also, holy crap, are 48-hr days customary on this forum? I'm used to 120 hour days and 48 hour nights.

Holy sweet Jesus.

Oh, to see how cultures differ. 48 hours are the standard here for games under the "Jobs" and "Heist" categories. We also have "speed games/side missions" which are 24/24 cycles. I have never played in a game with 120 hour days (so one cycle is a whole week!). That sounds nice for people pressed for time, or for townies who just love to keep gushing out that delicious content. I think if it was tried here though there'd be a revolt by about the 80th hour of the day.

#1172

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:
Sloonei wrote:What were your personal feuds, SL? Who were you feuding with and how do you read those people?
I've been cattle raiding Silver for years and blaming it on the Badger clan.

Nobody gets my jokes.

Yeah including you...

#1173

A quick

for Silver Lantern compiling an ISO without multi-quote.

I'll read up, stand by.

#1174

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:
Sloonei wrote:What were your personal feuds, SL? Who were you feuding with and how do you read those people?
I've been cattle raiding Silver for years and blaming it on the Badger clan.

Nobody gets my jokes.

This is a fantastic joke, Mr Fox. I think. Right?

#1175

I appreciate the effort in assessing INH, Silver Lantern. I think the points you make are understandable, though I'd prefer to allow INH to respond before I say much more than that. Most importantly I think your work is authentic and that you mean what you're saying.

#1176

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
speedchuck wrote:There's probably at least one scum between JOH, JJJ, Strawhenge, and Golden, but I'm gonna wait until I have a little more info to try to ferret that out. The amount of anti-alignment in these is palpable, in my eyes. I will also be looking at this later in the day.
Is there a particular reason you place these names together in this group?

1. It is my experience that, in most mafia games (esp. when town is struggling to get strong scumreads), at least one Mafioso will be very engaged. Others try to stay out of his way a bit more, or directly engage him. Either way, these selected are active players, strawhenge on the slightly lesser side because of his disappearance and sudden reversal on the fakeslip.
2. I have seen a lot of argument between JOH/JJJ, JJJ/Strawhenge, Golden/JJJ, and some other pairs. Basically, these all look to be engaged players, and none of them look particularly aligned.
3. The arguments that I've seen look very anti-aligned, but they still weasel out into being differences in gameplay style, and apologies go around. The defensive twists that turn everything on end like that worry me. It would surprise me to have THAT MUCH of this type of conflict among town. More of a correlation thing for me then causation, but enough for me to want to look at it today.
4. (Biggest reason) Gut. I do have decent townreads on these four. That probably needs to change, for me at least. That's how I feel. I'm going to try to find out what my gut is telling me before calling for lynch wagons or anything.

An idea, or a question, really:
JOH, JJJ, Strawhenge, and Golden: Who is most likely to be scum out of the other three in this group?
You're the ones that have been debating/disputing a bit, so your opinions probably matter to me.

#1177

Long Con wrote:I don't really feel like lynching dyslexic on. So I'll unvote. Sorry, I don't have another strong idea for a vote, I go with JJJ possibly silver, or you

It appears LC intended to unvote Dizzy, though it was never made official. A clear, alternative vote wasn't placed though. Please talk about that, LC, and how you intended your final Day 1 vote to be.

More I'd like to remind you, LC, you address this ISO presented by Strawhenge when time permits.

#1178

Sloonei wrote:
Jackofhearts2005 wrote:
Sloonei wrote:What were your personal feuds, SL? Who were you feuding with and how do you read those people?
I've been cattle raiding Silver for years and blaming it on the Badger clan.

Nobody gets my jokes.
This is a fantastic joke, Mr Fox. I think. Right?

It's a King of Dragon Pass reference.

#1179

Thanks for the answer, speedchuck. I follow your thought process. To answer your question:

speedchuck wrote:An idea, or a question, really:
JOH, JJJ, Strawhenge, and Golden: Who is most likely to be scum out of the other three in this group?
You're the ones that have been debating/disputing a bit, so your opinions probably matter to me.

I don't think there has to be a scum in this group. If there is one I think the most likely candidate is JOH.

#1180

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:
Based on her one post, Eloh is probably mafia.

JOH, did you receive a night PM of some sort that led you to this post? Answer however the rules allow. I ask because of Epi's avatar.

#1181

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
Jackofhearts2005 wrote:
Sloonei wrote:What were your personal feuds, SL? Who were you feuding with and how do you read those people?
I've been cattle raiding Silver for years and blaming it on the Badger clan.

Nobody gets my jokes.
This is a fantastic joke, Mr Fox. I think. Right?
It's a King of Dragon Pass reference.

Same thing

#1182

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I appreciate the effort in assessing INH, Silver Lantern. I think the points you make are understandable, though I'd prefer to allow INH to respond before I say much more than that. Most importantly I think your work is authentic and that you mean what you're saying.

I don't know if you're being nice to me cause you're being nice to the new people or because you're scum and trying to keep my trust.

#1183

What is your read on JJJ Sloonei?

#1184

I looked at the player list and asked myself, on gut level, who I have no reason at all to town read. I ended up with these names:

Marmot
Long Con
Scotty
Elohcin
DFaraday
JOH
DrWilgy

I considered removing Wilgy because I technically did receive that annoying "self meta" comment of his as being a potential town indicator. I've lost interest in that though and won't give him a pass for something so tiny. There was some cognitive dissonance with JOH, as I could say that his productivity is a reasonable town indicator -- I just haven't actually felt anything like that from him for whatever reason. I might need to do a more complete ISO on him to qualify that if I can find the time today. There's also the fact that Nacho having played as a civilian in Monkey Island disrupts the framework I'd previously been drawing.

#1185

Silver Lantern wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I appreciate the effort in assessing INH, Silver Lantern. I think the points you make are understandable, though I'd prefer to allow INH to respond before I say much more than that. Most importantly I think your work is authentic and that you mean what you're saying.
I don't know if you're being nice to me cause you're being nice to the new people or because you're scum and trying to keep my trust.

Judge for yourself. I'll at least take some pride in the fact that there will come a time where you and others know for sure that I really was just being nice.

I encourage productivity and effort, and when I get it I like it.

#1186

Silver Lantern wrote:Curious of people's opinions of the kills. Did anyone feel Wigly was acting particularly scummy?

Putting this out there again, feel free to address it, unless you're avoiding it for some reason...

#1187

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I looked at the player list and asked myself, on gut level, who I have no reason at all to town read. I ended up with these names:

Marmot
Long Con
Scotty
Elohcin
DFaraday
JOH
DrWilgy

I considered removing Wilgy because I technically did receive that annoying "self meta" comment of his as being a potential town indicator. I've lost interest in that though and won't give him a pass for something so tiny. There was some cognitive dissonance with JOH, as I could say that his productivity is a reasonable town indicator -- I just haven't actually felt anything like that from him for whatever reason. I might need to do a more complete ISO on him to qualify that if I can find the time today. There's also the fact that Nacho having played as a civilian in Monkey Island disrupts the framework I'd previously been drawing.

You would also add Sig to this list, no? Post autopsy obviously.

#1188

Silver Lantern wrote:
Silver Lantern wrote:Curious of people's opinions of the kills. Did anyone feel Wigly was acting particularly scummy?
Putting this out there again, feel free to address it, unless you're avoiding it for some reason...

My thoughts

#1189

I mean Pre-autopsy... Sheesh.

#1190

Silver Lantern wrote:You would also add Sig to this list, no? Post autopsy obviously.

He'd have made the same list on Day 1, if that's what you mean. I do have a reason to town read him post-autopsy -- I can look at his role card.

Addendum: Yeah. Sometimes townies don't do anything to show themselves. Them's the breaks. I still think people who fit that description are more likely to be bad than people who don't.

#1191

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Silver Lantern wrote:
Silver Lantern wrote:Curious of people's opinions of the kills. Did anyone feel Wigly was acting particularly scummy?
Putting this out there again, feel free to address it, unless you're avoiding it for some reason...
My thoughts

That is your thoughts on who may have done it. I am asking thoughts on Wigly in general and Sig in general too. Which I think you did address afterwards.

#1192

Did Dyslexicon ever explain the strategic benefit of the fake slip on Day 1? Was it just a reaction grab?

#1193

Sloonei wrote:Did Dyslexicon ever explain the strategic benefit of the fake slip on Day 1? Was it just a reaction grab?

He can speak for himself, but basically this colored above from what I gathered.

#1194

speedchuck wrote:http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 80#p334787

This link has Golden pinging me for a post I made. We got it resolved, but the spat between JJJ and Golden started based on that. Definitely recommend reading that.

I've read this. I continue to have a less positive read on Golden than I usually do. It's something I'll be keeping my eye on as I continue to work my way into this game.

What were you thoughts on that whole exchange? You urged me to read it, which I appreciate, but I don't believe I've seen your own interpretation of the events yet.

#1195

Silver Lantern wrote:
Sloonei wrote:Did Dyslexicon ever explain the strategic benefit of the fake slip on Day 1? Was it just a reaction grab?
He can speak for himself, but basically this colored above from what I gathered.

If this is the case then I'd be very interested to hear what he thinks about all the various reactions to it. I'll go look to see if he's given those.

#1196

Sloonei wrote: What were you thoughts on that whole exchange? You urged me to read it, which I appreciate, but I don't believe I've seen your own interpretation of the events yet.

I didn't like Golden a huge amount before the exchange, but afterwards he came off looking better and JJJ looking worse. It seemed like JJJ was pushing Golden over a reaction and accidentally pushed too far, got in too deep. (I'm not the only one who thinks that, but I forget who else.)

It's possible that Golden just had a really good reactive defense, and is still scum, but that's not the feel I had afterwards.

Hard to read JJJ still, because he's a large part of ongoing discussion, but that's one of his worse-looking points. He also tried to pull me into the argument at the end and deflect toward me for not addressing it, which I didn't like. Though my thing started it, the whole argument clearly wasn't about me.

#1197

Dyslexicon wrote:Somewhat casual observations

- Quin posts 2min after slip. Don't see much wrong with the response.

- Golden doesn't think I'm very good at mafia.

- Strawhenge flags it, but doesn't vote me.

- Nutella is impressed and joins the vote. Nothing wrong with this it feels like.

- Scotty joins vote, say "watch this just being an arbitrary number". I find this curious.

- Quin seems pleased with himself.

- JJJ warns that I shouldn't be hammered (that would've been lol though). Still not calling me outright mafia.

- Silver indicates that it's "suspicious enough for a vote".

- Fredwood is the first one to suggest the post doesn't make sense. Unsure of mafia motive for doing this.

Some players comments later, but I'm unsure how much can be read into that as it's not as immediate.
I was going to ask why JJJ did not declare me scum or town, but didn't contest anyone who declared me sure or almost sure scum. But it was answered later with his long post. The fact that he held on to it is probably town indicative. Which is a shame, cause I really wanted to scum read JJJ for some reason. Also, the last time I played here the player I was suspicious towards in the start, but then grew to be everyone's top town read turned out to be scum, and I felt like crying. Fact is, the early JJJ stuff did not make me confident in him being town, but the later is better, I think. It would be very helpful if players who has meta on JJJ can tell me if this is very typical of his town play (as I understand nobody really knows what his scum play is like (?)).

This is something, though none of these reads are definitive really. I dig it though. I'm not scum reading Dyslexicon at the moment.

#1198

Do we have any votes yet today?

#1199

Hey JOH, please tell me about your perspective of Quin.

#1200

Sloonei wrote:Do we have any votes yet today?

I don't believe so. Go crazy.

How would you Rate this game?