Phenon Mafia: ENDGAME - Snuffed

[Jackofhearts2005]

Where I come from, it is customary to lynch players on their birthday.

/I think we did it once on accident and joke about doing it every time birthdays are mentioned.

[Quin]

Dizzy's slip options:

B. The slip was on purpose to win town points.

Option B is viable, though a stupid strategy, as we see how well that went.

I literally just said that B was a viable scum move.
C is not really a good town move. It wasn't a great play. Wasn't a good mafia move either.

My point was: Option A doesn't really work. That's my whole point. If you want to lynch Dizzy off of option B, be my guest.

Let's condense this.

You literally just said that it was a stupid strategy, too, based on how things went. Yet if it happened, it worked. Things went really well for Dizzy.

Please explain the discrepancy. What did you mean by "how well that went"?

Dys can't know how well a strategy is going to go until it actually goes. I think it's better to evaluate whether something is stupid or not in theory, not in execution.

[Quin]

Where I come from, it is customary to lynch players on their birthday.

/I think we did it once on accident and joke about doing it every time birthdays are mentioned.

Let's hope we're not in LYLO on the 3rd.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm downloading Firefox now, because I'm not able to login on Chrome and Microsoft Edge makes me want to throw my entire computer out the window. Give me 10 minutes, I'll be reading/skimming through everything from the latter half of Day 1.

3J asked me if my role was tampered with/redirected/whatever, and to that I refuse to answer. It sounds like an attempt to figure out what type of role I have. Why are you asking me in particular?

I don't care what your role is. I have information. If you don't want to answer then don't.

[speedchuck]

People often mafia while drunk here.

I'm generally pretty carefree with my posts, but WOW that seems like a terrible idea
To be fair, I've never had any alcohol in my system.

Thanks for the heads up there, though.

goin thru some ol' posts? that's cool...

Is magic bagging common here? (being like "Have info" or "have power role" and stuff)

[Long Con]

INH. Probably not w/w with LC, which is in his favor since LC looks bad to me. His rigidity on the train direction thing did him no favors. Speed and Silver sure make him look bad (he makes himself look bad). Need to reread his back and forth with LC. I'll get back to you on this one.

What do you mean by "rigidity"?

Also, you can count on me Mafiaing while drunk. Rarely sloshed and sloppy-typing, but maybe a bit sassier and looser-playing!

Maybe... tonight!

[Jackofhearts2005]

Rigid...ness?

[Long Con]

Is magic bagging common here? (being like "Have info" or "have power role" and stuff)

I would say no, mostly that would be against the rules, since most of the games here have historically been 'no infodropping, no roleclaiming' games.

[Long Con]

Rigid...ness?

Like, I don't waver from my point of view? It's not uncommon for me to be stubborn I guess. I think that pressing hard on a matter is more likely to get true-readable reactions than being accomodating.

[Fredwood]

Where the hell is LC?

Fred, Nut, what do you think of LC right now?

He's totally lying about it being his birthday, he just wants free cake.


Light town, but that's based off my scum read on inh, and he was one of the first to challenge him.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Rigid...ness?

Like, I don't waver from my point of view? It's not uncommon for me to be stubborn I guess. I think that pressing hard on a matter is more likely to get true-readable reactions than being accomodating.

Sorry. INH's rigidness was the problem. Continuing to harp on the three map directions, only one direction is good thing.

[Quin]

I'm downloading Firefox now, because I'm not able to login on Chrome and Microsoft Edge makes me want to throw my entire computer out the window. Give me 10 minutes, I'll be reading/skimming through everything from the latter half of Day 1.

3J asked me if my role was tampered with/redirected/whatever, and to that I refuse to answer. It sounds like an attempt to figure out what type of role I have. Why are you asking me in particular?

I don't care what your role is. I have information. If you don't want to answer then don't.

If 'a' baddie asked me what you did, they'd have me answer in one of three ways: Yes, no, or I don't know. Yes tells them that I have either or information or killing role, or else one that has a obvious presence in the thread which has been redirected. No tells them the same thing, except that it was used as intended. I don't know tells them that my role is unclear in it's results without some sort of trigger or relevant post. A doctor or role blocker, things like that. I find it suspicious information collecting.

Am I correct to assume that your information is why you asked me what you did?

[speedchuck]

Is magic bagging common here? (being like "Have info" or "have power role" and stuff)

I would say no, mostly that would be against the rules, since most of the games here have historically been 'no infodropping, no roleclaiming' games.

Really? I've never seen the like of that.
I mean, massclaims are always forbidden, yes. But I'm honestly quite surprised by this rule.

In witchhunt-like setups, claiming has always been discouraged by people that can chain kills if they match you to your role.
In closed setups like this, giving away who you are is dangerous because nobody has to believe you.

Anyway, weird. I'll have to reread the mafia rules should I stick around for more games after this.

[Quin]

Why are we assuming Nacho was the mafia kill?

[Quin]

inspiring

Quin, he stole my word!

That word is grossly overused

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Am I correct to assume that your information is why you asked me what you did?

I'm not answering that either.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Why are we assuming Nacho was the mafia kill?

It's the most logical assumption. We can "what if" all day but I have no interest in that. If someone has a reason to suspect otherwise I'm all ears.

[Golden]

Why are we assuming Nacho was the mafia kill?

Flavour text.

[speedchuck]

Why are we assuming Nacho was the mafia kill?

Motive-wise, it makes more sense. Good not to rule anything out, though.

Who knows, there might be a serial killer 3p.

[Quin]

Am I correct to assume that your information is why you asked me what you did?

I'm not answering that either.

If it's not then 'I have information' had no business in your response.

[Quin]

Am I correct to assume that your information is why you asked me what you did?

I'm not answering that either.

If it's not then 'I have information' had no business in your response.

And in that case, my question 'Why did you single me out to ask that question' still stands.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Am I correct to assume that your information is why you asked me what you did?

I'm not answering that either.

If it's not then 'I have information' had no business in your response.

You don't know what has business in my response. We're done here.

[Sloonei]

I still feel behind and am struggling to weigh in on a lot of cases because I simply do not have the full context of a lot or things going on in this game. This is not a complaint, just an update on my status. The prospect of reading the entire thread start to finish is daunting and strikes me as an exhausting waste of time, so instead I'd like to ask you all for a favor. If there are any particular series of events that you'd like me to look at or any specific players deserving of my attention, please point me in the right direction and I'll start digging around. If there's anything you think should be getting more attention than it is right now, I am dancing around and begging you to tell me about it, so please use me to your advantage. I have to work tonight and don't usually have energy for huge case-making afterwards, so I likely won't be doing much until tomorrow morning but I'm better off collecting a checklist of Things To Do ahead of time.

please and thanks

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I still feel behind and am struggling to weigh in on a lot of cases because I simply do not have the full context of a lot or things going on in this game. This is not a complaint, just an update on my status. The prospect of reading the entire thread start to finish is daunting and strikes me as an exhausting waste of time, so instead I'd like to ask you all for a favor. If there are any particular series of events that you'd like me to look at or any specific players deserving of my attention, please point me in the right direction and I'll start digging around. If there's anything you think should be getting more attention than it is right now, I am dancing around and begging you to tell me about it, so please use me to your advantage. I have to work tonight and don't usually have energy for huge case-making afterwards, so I likely won't be doing much until tomorrow morning but I'm better off collecting a checklist of Things To Do ahead of time.

please and thanks

A fresh take on INH would be swell.

[speedchuck]

I'm out until possibly tomorrow, unless I pop in to catch up in 4-5 hours.

[speedchuck]

Oh, and Sloonei, I believe you promised a more detailed look at Scotty, since you (possibly, if I remember correct) know him? I'd be interested.

[Golden]

Am I correct to assume that your information is why you asked me what you did?

I'm not answering that either.

If it's not then 'I have information' had no business in your response.

You don't know what has business in my response. We're done here.

Does this exchange with Quin change your opinion on his affiliation in any way?

[Quin]

Am I correct to assume that your information is why you asked me what you did?

I'm not answering that either.

If it's not then 'I have information' had no business in your response.

You don't know what has business in my response. We're done here.

No we ain't.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Does this exchange with Quin change your opinion on his affiliation in any way?

That depends on how much experience Quin has in infodump games of this scale (i.e. not just heists). Sloonei, what do you know about this regarding Quin's pre-Syndicate experience? Quin obviously you can speak for yourself as well.

[Quin]

Gah. sig is suspicious, but Golden's flip flop on the map-having is a big ol' Costco-size box of WIFOM.

I recall talking about this before. I'll say it again just in case. Maybe I said it in a better way last time.

I don't think Golden's flip flop here is suspicious. It feels like someone who realised after 3J's claim he could either protect 3J's claim, or let 3J's claim protect him.

[Quin]

Does this exchange with Quin change your opinion on his affiliation in any way?

That depends on how much experience Quin has in infodump games of this scale (i.e. not just heists). Sloonei, what do you know about this regarding Quin's pre-Syndicate experience? Quin obviously you can speak for yourself as well.

I think long ago we never set rules against info-dumping in the games we hosted/played, but recently (the past one or two years) it's been a rule.

I'm not sure why my experience factors into it though, you'll need to explain that to me.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm not sure why my experience factors into it though, you'll need to explain that to me.

It lends context to your reaction, and that is what I wish to judge.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I've liked speedchuck on Day 2 considerably more than Day 1.

[Quin]

I'm not sure why my experience factors into it though, you'll need to explain that to me.

It lends context to your reaction, and that is what I wish to judge.

Can you tell me exactly what part of our conversation led you to this exercise? Info-dumping was barely a part of it.

[insertnamehere]

RESPONSES IN SARCASTIC ORANGE FOR SELF-EVIDENT REASONS

INH ISO going from earlier posts to later posts:
His first two posts are just fluff. Here is his #3 post:

Didn’t like him throwing shade at 2 folks who appear pretty townie at this point (up top), and I disagree that Golden’s post being flippity flop is bad as protection of the map holder seems ok to me at face value (in the below portion). Putting aside the theory someone mentioned of the mafia doing it to scare off potential other townies from doing it.

I'm the one who mentioned that theory, btw. You later call it scummy, yet you seem to consider it as a possibility in this part. Huh.

Here is his post #4:
I feel it is more likely that mafia would stay quiet and “pretend to have the map” unless the actually got the map. Why draw unnecessary disprovable attention to yourself if you’re scum?

Scum wants to control thread direction. Scum wants to get a reaction out of the person who ACTUALLY has the map, causing them to out themselves. "Scum = quiet, and town = loud" is a fallacious false dichotomy.

Post # 5:
This feels like a really forced argument to me. The kind of thing a scummer would say to validate their questionable play to be honest. Especially when this turned out to be a non issue and when we can openly discuss and see who is voting where on the poll.

First two sentences are bland discrediting that doesn't take into account the actual argument. I also fail to see how public voting discussion makes possible misleading fake claimers a non-issue. Lots of loaded language, little to no actual refutation.

Post # 6:
Why is only 1 destination beneficial? Why is any destination beneficial? Don’t like these leaps of logic (Hi Soneji, what’s an inference) without any evidence or reason to think otherwise. Do we know that 1 site and only 1 site is beneficial? I don’t think so unless I missed something, which is possible, but I will assume it’s not until proven otherwise.

For the map to be a valuable item, it has to factor into the gameplay somehow. Hell, for the whole friggin' travel poll mechanics to matter at all, they have to factor into the gameplay. The easiest way for it to do so, and the way that makes the map the most valuable is by making certain locations good and bad for certain roles.

Sure, it's an inference, but it's one based on logic and not wild speculation.

Post # 7:
Given that I don’t like LC either, this is interesting, but placing an initial vote on a mafia mate is not unheard of if you don’t think the train will gain traction.

Post # 8
Reads like argument for the sake of argument. Don’t like it. I tend to do this, so I can see where this position could come off hypocritical.

Ironically, you calling my post "argument for the sake of argument" feels like a pretty arbitrary-ass argument.

Post #9?
Perfectly valid questions to ask, to his credit.

Post #10:
Non-committal so let’s see if he carries through with the “more analysis” later.

I was going to do so, but then someone posted an ISO on me.

Post #12:
Here they are diffusing the “map holder” argument somewhat. This exchange doesn’t feel particularly useful.

Neither does this criticism.

NEXT Post:
Seems like a townie enough approach, but I can see a scummer making an assertion like that.

I can see a scummer maybe asserting that an assertation is something a scummer would assert.

ANOTHER post:
The “scumbuddies all claim to have the map” argument is so devious that INH is setting off siren gifs... What a scummy thing to say. I had not even fathomed that until he said it. Doesn’t necessarily make him scum, but man, what an evil thought.

It's pretty hard being me, what with my evil thoughts and all, and the fact that I'm not evil.

But seriously, your criticism is what? That because I think about possible scummer tactics that may be in play, I must be scummer myself? Otherwise, why would I be thinking about scummer tactics?

Come on.

Last post of relevance:
I know Sloonei said posting a meaningless vote is useful for something or another, but to me, this seems like, “hey I’m scum and know that Sig isn’t scum, so let me get some town cred by placing a vote on someone else and then cover my tracks by giving a reason of why I am doing it,” which just comes off as forced.

"Hey this guy voted for a dude for a reason! That's exactly what a scummer would do, giving reasoning for his votes. FORCED."

Well, that was a waste of time. At least I learned a new favorite word: "scummer."

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Can you tell me exactly what part of our conversation led you to this exercise? Info-dumping was barely a part of it.

I don't know what you mean by "this exercise"? Which part of this recent exchange?

[Quin]

Can you tell me exactly what part of our conversation led you to this exercise? Info-dumping was barely a part of it.

I don't know what you mean by "this exercise"? Which part of this recent exchange?

Asking Sloonei and me for my history in info-dumping games.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Asking Sloonei and me for my history in info-dumping games.

Your reaction to my question led me to that. You reacted in a particular way that I think can be better understood with that information available to me. I'm hoping Sloonei can give me a quick take before I expand on that.

[Jackofhearts2005]

You guys are so paranoid.

JJJ, my night went great. If you're town, hope that helps.

See how easy that was?

Maybe I'm lying. Maybe that's not useful to JJJ.

Maybe JJJ is a townie reverse tracker and I say I think someone as targeted me and we have a run at them.

Maybe there are things beyond roleblicking that can happen to a guy and a thumbs up or thumbs down won't be the same as claiming info gatherer.

Maybe JJJ is scum pretending to be a tracker or town just throwing up smoke. Maybe when he has to claim later, this exchange saves or sinks him.

I can dismiss most of these maybes but this is the way Realms meta sees it. It's one place I think our meta is strong, even if "How was your night" usually doesn't effect the game.

That said, Realms meta setups looooove trackers and reverse trackers. I'm a big fan of the former.

[Quin]

I eagerly await your elaboration, sir.

[Jackofhearts2005]

INH calls the specific parts of Silver's post where Silver points out useless posts as also useless.

Lolwut?

[Quin]

I want to see more of Dys, and I can't justify leaving it there because of gut.

But it's ok to lynch me in my first game...I'm confused as to wanting to lynch Dys so aggressively but now wanting to see more of them, and then voting for another person you haven't seen before.

You still haven't given any reason for a read, or your "gut" feeling, as amorphous as that terminology is, so there really isn't much chance for one to respond. Really, it all originated from an aside I made publicly stating my tempered reservations of your playstyle. Which I have explained twice, once to you specifically and once as a clarification to someone else that the concern was from general experience from being mislead before and not a statement about you specifically, and yet you still haven't made a rebuttal to further the discussion.

So either you're not paying attention and still taking a confrontational approach or you are now playing the "My gut" card just trying to sway the vote in the 11th hour to an unlikely lynch target. Feels a bit like CYA after pushing so hard on DYS, and now that it has soured and people are starting to get annoyed at people who are still voting for Dys, you're scrambling to get off the train you started.

Striking out the first paragraph, because that's where the misunderstandings came from.

I'm caught up to here, so it's time to revisit Fredwood.

I was explicit in my reason for suspecting you. You might be mistaking my mention of gut, which I was referring to Dys in. You never replied to me, but your response to 3J about it doesn't address my reason for suspicion at all. I felt ignored. It just elaborates on your point while changing your stance from a soft defense while simultaneously deferring based on a lack of info, to straight defense.

only reinforces my point. You defend Dys, but you're also saying at the same time 'But I don't know her, it could just be how she plays'.

[Dyslexicon]

I'm catching up, cause lol sleep schedule what. Might take some time. Please tell me it's not all gif-less.

[Quin]

I guess that's not helpful but I'm really confused by the vote.

Also should I hammer with at 9:59:59 I was going to refrain from voting because of the drama, but since it seems to be a mad dash just put a vote on anybody, not voting seems counter productive.

Golden, you mentioned wanting to look at people who considered throwing the hammer down on sig without actually doing so. What are your thoughts here?

[Quin]

I'm cool with assuming Nacho was the night kill since Wilgy only went missing. My lord Wilgy may live yet!

[Quin]

Or it might be his role to hide it. I'm saying that -------- is not his role/alignment. :P

That would make sense if this was a vig. Wilgy does not seem like a good mafia kill target.

Oh well yea that would be a lousy role.
Gotta really

Read between the lines

This post didn't get as much love as it should.

[Elohcin]

I'm going to vote before I forget. I'm trusting the people...Dyslexicon.

I don't like change in my Mafia culture and this game is very different. So....you are right...this is me... Sorry, Sprit...I can't handle the newness on top of RL.

[Quin]

I think there may be some insight available in this Nacho kill. Yeah, WIFOM, I don't care. Thoughts:

~ He was generally given credit more often than not, but he wasn't given the most credit. There were a few other players, namely nutella and Golden, who were town read more universally. So I don't think that's likely to be the sole motive for a Nacho kill.

~ It was only his second game on the site, and his first as a civilian. If we're in a one-mafia-team scenario here, I think the driving voice behind that kill is more likely to be someone who is not a Syndicate regular. Most Syndicate regulars on this roster would be less inclined to kill a visitor on Night 1. It's technically not "wrong", but it's lame. The reason I distinguish one mafia team specifically is that if that's the case, it's likely a larger team which would by default clue that team a little bit into their solitude. In this situation they know themselves to be mafia and everyone else to not be mafia, or at least they have a reason to believe that. This means Nacho is being offed as a suspected civilian on Night 1 in his first civilian game on this website. I reiterate: lame. People I think would look better in this are Syndicate regulars who played with him last time: Quin, Golden, Scotty, Long Con, Soneji, Wilgy, Marmot, INH, Eloh. That's too many people, but I can reduce it further by focusing on those who I'd expect to have a prominent voice in Mafia BTSC: Quin, Golden, Scotty, and Long Con. Possibily Marmot and INH.

I know that's a crapload of speculation, but it was in my head and now it's in yours. Chew on it and do with it whatever you like.

~ He was not shy about stating confident reads. He might have been on the right track with enough of them to frighten the scum into killing him immediately despite not being the most-town-read player there was.

Jay said this, but remembered about Monkey Island later. I'll put the tinfoil away for once and say that I don't believe he was lying about misremembering. With that in mind, I don't think 3J would support a kill on who he considered a visitor. It's a nice look.

[Quin]

I'm going to vote before I forget. I'm trusting the people...Dyslexicon.

I don't like change in my Mafia culture and this game is very different. So....you are right...this is me... Sorry, Sprit...I can't handle the newness on top of RL.

When you say 'trust the people', were there specific people that you trusted? Or were you going with the majority?

I don't fault you for either, just wanna see where your head is at.

[Quin]

Silver and Sloonei's exchange about reads does feel like a culture clash. I don't get any bad vibes from Sloonei. I'm liking Silver's constant push for more where he doesn't feel like an answer is substantial enough, which isn't exclusive to his interactions with Sloonei.