Phenon Mafia: ENDGAME - Snuffed

[Fredwood]

Soneji, Quin, and Golden:

Do you think it's likely that there is redundancy in the doctor role in the civ alignment? [Soneji you may not have gotten to the point yet that you understand why I'm asking this]

What do you mean by redundancy?

Two doctor roles that operate on odd nights.

Unlikely. If Epi had a hand in balance, redundancy shouldn't be a thing.

Almost zero percent likely.

If they were alternating nights there would be a less then 0 chance but yeah, I'd never put two doctors in any of my games even with hidden interactions we haven't seen.

[Golden]

Soneji, Quin, and Golden:

Do you think it's likely that there is redundancy in the doctor role in the civ alignment? [Soneji you may not have gotten to the point yet that you understand why I'm asking this]

As far as I'm concerned, clusterfuck means anything goes, so I see no reason why redundancy couldn't be possible within town roles. Neat fits feel more believable, but if I were designing a game like this I'd probably want loose ends and overlaps that make claims seem less believable.

[Strawhenge]

Golden is now firmly in the greenish area of the spectrum for me. That scummy gut-read passed like a bit of overdone potato. I'm curious about your continuing case against me. I can't promise promptness with my answers, but I can answer questions if you have them.

Quin, in the words of a wise and wild individual, 'ur bad.' And soneji is your homie.

I'm down to lynch either of them. I'll place a placeholder vote on Quin

[Soneji]

Soneji, Quin, and Golden:

Do you think it's likely that there is redundancy in the doctor role in the civ alignment? [Soneji you may not have gotten to the point yet that you understand why I'm asking this]

What do you mean by redundancy?

Two doctor roles that operate on odd nights.

I come from a place where the even/odd night thing with power roles is pretty rare. If there were two doctors, one even night and one odd night, the balance/intrigue there would be that you have two chances to get someone good at picking doctor targets and the mafia hitting one of them doesn't take away your doctor protects entirely.

Can't say how likely it is given this game is in a weird place between The Syndicate and Narutoforums in terms of power.

[Quin]

Soneji, Quin, and Golden:

Do you think it's likely that there is redundancy in the doctor role in the civ alignment? [Soneji you may not have gotten to the point yet that you understand why I'm asking this]

What do you mean by redundancy?

Two doctor roles that operate on odd nights.

Unlikely. If Epi had a hand in balance, redundancy shouldn't be a thing.

Almost zero percent likely.

Then, as I said last night, I don't think you are telling the truth about your claim Quin unless the theory JJJ put forth last night is true.

Well, I am. All I can say is 'was all of this really necessary just so I could fake doctor claim?'

Would I make it obvious in my posts that I thought nutella was the cop on Day 2, not kill her that night and risk a cop check, kill her the next night just so I could go back and point out that I thought she was the cop, make a blatant meh moment in having contradictory reads on nutella and claiming doctor after shit hit the fan?

Come on.

[Golden]

PS I don't like that I spent my whole lunch in discussion with Quin either. I'm going to try to move on to other things.

But I just have a big issue in that it felt like a big agenda to me. Like Quin felt like he could seize upon an inconsistency and got lost in an inability to accept my response.

That's all I'll say for now. I'm looking forward to other, not-me perspectives. Especially Jay. I don't like that this happened so close to end of day, it's hard for me to get objective distance.

[Fredwood]

I'm actually bothered by Golden's role mechanically. I have a light scumread based on mechanics, as I said earlier.

As for his actions, I had a townread way back when, and the current crap looks way too much like Jack/Quin for me to read scum in it.

I'll disagree. Jack and Quin was a claim based argument that exploded from there.

This one is less content intensive because most of the back in forth is "I never said that, Show me where I said that." It's like both need to argue but can't figure out what they want to argue about.

Pretty sure Jack and Quin had some of this kind of stuff too.

I mean, Jack went from agreeing with Quin to voting him and disbelieving the claim before it even happened.

Early on:
"I think we should drop the discussion" - Quin
"Quin doesn't want to talk about how scummy he is" - Jack
"As if that's the only interpretation of that"
"Nyan"
etc.

Quin seems to attract these things.

I'll agree there was some elements of that argument to it, but at the very least I understood the impetus. Maybe my cognitive perception is off, but there isn't a clear point they are arguing aside from an interpretation of JJJ's post.

[Golden]

Soneji, Quin, and Golden:

Do you think it's likely that there is redundancy in the doctor role in the civ alignment? [Soneji you may not have gotten to the point yet that you understand why I'm asking this]

What do you mean by redundancy?

Two doctor roles that operate on odd nights.

I'd expect one was bad, if they are literally that identical.

[juliets]

Soneji, Quin, and Golden:

Do you think it's likely that there is redundancy in the doctor role in the civ alignment? [Soneji you may not have gotten to the point yet that you understand why I'm asking this]

What do you mean by redundancy?

Two doctor roles that operate on odd nights.

Unlikely. If Epi had a hand in balance, redundancy shouldn't be a thing.

Almost zero percent likely.

Then, as I said last night, I don't think you are telling the truth about your claim Quin unless the theory JJJ put forth last night is true.

Well, I am. All I can say is 'was all of this really necessary just so I could fake doctor claim?'

Would I make it obvious in my posts that I thought nutella was the cop on Day 2, not kill her that night and risk a cop check, kill her the next night just so I could go back and point out that I thought she was the cop, make a blatant meh moment in having contradictory reads on nutella and claiming doctor after shit hit the fan?

Come on.

I don't know Quin, would you? Because from where I sit either there are two doctors on the odd nights in the civ alignment or your claim is false. And I know I've said it already but I'll say it again, I am not claiming doctor.

[Quin]

No, I wouldn't. My brain would implode arguing that level of WIFOM. Does the second redirecting role that exists factor in to that conclusion?

[juliets]

And I'll also say I'd like to believe your claim is true, and I've tried today to think of ways that it could be true but I just can't come up with anything other than we have a redundancy.

[Golden]

Golden is now firmly in the greenish area of the spectrum for me. That scummy gut-read passed like a bit of overdone potato. I'm curious about your continuing case against me. I can't promise promptness with my answers, but I can answer questions if you have them.

I'm also curious about it. It's gut feeling, and for me it's definitely more a case of wanting to find time to explore your post history and feeling like you are a bit of an enigma in this game than already knowing why I feel this way. Same thing with Soneji.

[juliets]

No, I wouldn't. My brain would implode arguing that level of WIFOM. Does the second redirecting role that exists factor in to that conclusion?

No, it doesn't.

[Quin]

PS I don't like that I spent my whole lunch in discussion with Quin either. I'm going to try to move on to other things.

But I just have a big issue in that it felt like a big agenda to me. Like Quin felt like he could seize upon an inconsistency and got lost in an inability to accept my response.

That's all I'll say for now. I'm looking forward to other, not-me perspectives. Especially Jay. I don't like that this happened so close to end of day, it's hard for me to get objective distance.

When you ended things like that in ASOUE, I wanted to lynch you so bad. If you're civ this time too, you just don't understand me at all.

[Golden]

PS I don't like that I spent my whole lunch in discussion with Quin either. I'm going to try to move on to other things.

But I just have a big issue in that it felt like a big agenda to me. Like Quin felt like he could seize upon an inconsistency and got lost in an inability to accept my response.

That's all I'll say for now. I'm looking forward to other, not-me perspectives. Especially Jay. I don't like that this happened so close to end of day, it's hard for me to get objective distance.

When you ended things like that in ASOUE, I wanted to lynch you so bad. If you're civ this time too, you just don't understand me at all.

Or maybe I do. You were never inherently town aligned in ASOUE. What are you referring to with 'when things ended like that'?

[Quin]

And I'll also say I'd like to believe your claim is true, and I've tried today to think of ways that it could be true but I just can't come up with anything other than we have a redundancy.

If you aren't the doctor yourself, and you're under the impression there are two identical roles, why are you so sure I'm the one who is lying?

[Strawhenge]

Oops, RYM reflexes. I forgot we're emboldening and reddening the votes.

Voting Quin

[Golden]

@speed - what bothers you mechanically about my claim?

[Quin]

PS I don't like that I spent my whole lunch in discussion with Quin either. I'm going to try to move on to other things.

But I just have a big issue in that it felt like a big agenda to me. Like Quin felt like he could seize upon an inconsistency and got lost in an inability to accept my response.

That's all I'll say for now. I'm looking forward to other, not-me perspectives. Especially Jay. I don't like that this happened so close to end of day, it's hard for me to get objective distance.

When you ended things like that in ASOUE, I wanted to lynch you so bad. If you're civ this time too, you just don't understand me at all.

Or maybe I do. You were never inherently town aligned in ASOUE. What are you referring to with 'when things ended like that'?

I was completely pro-town. That doesn't have a lot of weight right now, but you should get it after my flip.

You ended things like this too, making some comment about how I've 'lost my own argument'. It's just completely false.

[Scotty]

Hey all, sorry once again, I've been off the grid.

I'm like 4 pages behind. I just got to the part where Sloonei shot Jack. That's a real bummer at the result.

I'm gonna have to put in a vote and scram before EoD. Show starts in 5. Where we at in votals? I'd be down with a Soneji lynch.

[Scotty]

Lynch Soneji

I'll try and Check again when I have downtime in act 2

[juliets]

And I'll also say I'd like to believe your claim is true, and I've tried today to think of ways that it could be true but I just can't come up with anything other than we have a redundancy.

If you aren't the doctor yourself, and you're under the impression there are two identical roles, why are you so sure I'm the one who is lying?

There are two things that could be true here and you not be lying: 1.) it's a redundancy. 2.) my lack of experience with this type of game set up is precluding me from seeing a way what I know to be true and you being an odd night doctor could simultaneously be true. I tried to clarify what I know to be true further with the hosts but as I said earlier today, they said it would be cheating for them to clarify any further than they've done.

[Quin]

And I'll also say I'd like to believe your claim is true, and I've tried today to think of ways that it could be true but I just can't come up with anything other than we have a redundancy.

If you aren't the doctor yourself, and you're under the impression there are two identical roles, why are you so sure I'm the one who is lying?

There are two things that could be true here and you not be lying: 1.) it's a redundancy. 2.) my lack of experience with this type of game set up is precluding me from seeing a way what I know to be true and you being an odd night doctor could simultaneously be true. I tried to clarify what I know to be true further with the hosts but as I said earlier today, they said it would be cheating for them to clarify any further than they've done.

If you don't go balls to the wall against this second doctor after my flip, you are bad.

[Golden]

Theory:

Quin is mafia odd night doctor. It was intended as a mechanic against the odd night vig, but that's gone. Mafia odd night doctor doesn't prevent mafia kill, so the mafia risk my watching nutella in the hope that, if I do, I hard clear Quin's doctor claim.

[Fredwood]

See, this is where my brain breaks.

I get Quin's argument that it is incredibly dumb way to claim doctor if he wasn't. It is a popular gambit, but the fact that we have an info that the claim is redundant, specific to the day...

Which is more likely, Quin made a huge ass mistake, or are our mechanics meta balance arguments false?

I've existed my entire mafia career to follow the information until the information is proved to be incorrect, but while I believe juliets knows of another odd night doctor, we're lynching on meta based on limited information, or at least I would be. I'm much less comfortable with that, because I really can't think of a good reason for scum to play the claim like they did (Goes back to my read on Dys on day 1 that ironically Quin attacked me for).


Am I FUCKING WIFOM???? I DONT KNOW WHAT IT MEANS...INCONCIEVABLE.

[juliets]

And I'll also say I'd like to believe your claim is true, and I've tried today to think of ways that it could be true but I just can't come up with anything other than we have a redundancy.

If you aren't the doctor yourself, and you're under the impression there are two identical roles, why are you so sure I'm the one who is lying?

There are two things that could be true here and you not be lying: 1.) it's a redundancy. 2.) my lack of experience with this type of game set up is precluding me from seeing a way what I know to be true and you being an odd night doctor could simultaneously be true. I tried to clarify what I know to be true further with the hosts but as I said earlier today, they said it would be cheating for them to clarify any further than they've done.

If you don't go balls to the wall against this second doctor after my flip, you are bad.

I don't understand what this means. As I said, it could be that my inexperience with this set up is blinding me to an alternative I can't think of.

linki

[Quin]

Theory:

Quin is mafia odd night doctor. It was intended as a mechanic against the odd night vig, but that's gone. Mafia odd night doctor doesn't prevent mafia kill, so the mafia risk my watching nutella in the hope that, if I do, I hard clear Quin's doctor claim.

lol

[Fredwood]

And I'll also say I'd like to believe your claim is true, and I've tried today to think of ways that it could be true but I just can't come up with anything other than we have a redundancy.

If you aren't the doctor yourself, and you're under the impression there are two identical roles, why are you so sure I'm the one who is lying?

There are two things that could be true here and you not be lying: 1.) it's a redundancy. 2.) my lack of experience with this type of game set up is precluding me from seeing a way what I know to be true and you being an odd night doctor could simultaneously be true. I tried to clarify what I know to be true further with the hosts but as I said earlier today, they said it would be cheating for them to clarify any further than they've done.

If you don't go balls to the wall against this second doctor after my flip, you are bad.

I don't understand what this means. As I said, it could be that my inexperience with this set up is blinding me to an alternative I can't think of.

linki

Quin is saying that because of your stance that there can be no redundancies, and Quin autopsies as the town odd night doctor, that then you must lynch the town odd night doctor that you are claiming to know the existence of, because the same argument would hold true for them.

[Soneji]

juliets, are you more concerned with the likelihood of two town doctors pointing to Quin being scum or Golden not watching obvious mafia kill targets?

[Quin]

If I don't protect, and instead kill nutella in the hopes that you watch her, I'm the only person who's going to show up. How pointless.

[Golden]

If I don't protect, and instead kill nutella in the hopes that you watch her, I'm the only person who's going to show up. How pointless.

That's not what I said.

[Sloonei]

Theory:

Quin is mafia odd night doctor. It was intended as a mechanic against the odd night vig, but that's gone. Mafia odd night doctor doesn't prevent mafia kill, so the mafia risk my watching nutella in the hope that, if I do, I hard clear Quin's doctor claim.

Work Sloonei likes this post.

[Fredwood]

If I don't protect, and instead kill nutella in the hopes that you watch her, I'm the only person who's going to show up. How pointless.

That's not what I said.

YAY, here we go again!!!

[Quin]

If I don't protect, and instead kill nutella in the hopes that you watch her, I'm the only person who's going to show up. How pointless.

That's not what I said.

Then explain.

[Quin]

No, I get it. A doctor that can't block their own kill.


lol

[Quin]

This is tinfoil. This right here.

[Strawhenge]

No, I get it. A doctor that can't block their own kill.


lol

Dunno if you're being sarcastic because them letters ain't orangelike, but...aren't doctors of any alignment usually unable to self-target?

[juliets]

And I'll also say I'd like to believe your claim is true, and I've tried today to think of ways that it could be true but I just can't come up with anything other than we have a redundancy.

If you aren't the doctor yourself, and you're under the impression there are two identical roles, why are you so sure I'm the one who is lying?

There are two things that could be true here and you not be lying: 1.) it's a redundancy. 2.) my lack of experience with this type of game set up is precluding me from seeing a way what I know to be true and you being an odd night doctor could simultaneously be true. I tried to clarify what I know to be true further with the hosts but as I said earlier today, they said it would be cheating for them to clarify any further than they've done.

If you don't go balls to the wall against this second doctor after my flip, you are bad.

I don't understand what this means. As I said, it could be that my inexperience with this set up is blinding me to an alternative I can't think of.

linki

Quin is saying that because of your stance that there can be no redundancies, and Quin autopsies as the town odd night doctor, that then you must lynch the town odd night doctor that you are claiming to know the existence of, because the same argument would hold true for them.

Oh ok, thanks for the explanation. Actually, my stance isn't that there can be no redundancies. I think Soneji and Golden said in a CF game anything is possible including overlap that screws with claiming. So, that looks like it's possible.

Soneji, I have been more concerned with whether or not Quin is falsifying his claim because the Golden stuff just came up this afternoon and I've not had a chance to read over Golden's posts. The Quin information has been with me since yesterday when I clarified a point with the hosts.

If people for the most part feel like Quin is genuine then I think it's safest to assume there is redundancy or there's an alternative I'm not thinking of because of my lack of experience with this. I don't want someone to be lynched based on my lack of experience.

[Quin]

No, I get it. A doctor that can't block their own kill.


lol

Dunno if you're being sarcastic because them letters ain't orangelike, but...aren't doctors of any alignment usually unable to self-target?

He's saying this in relation to the nutella kill, so not sure what self-targeting has to do with it.

[Golden]

If I don't protect, and instead kill nutella in the hopes that you watch her, I'm the only person who's going to show up. How pointless.

That's not what I said.

Then explain.

I'd see you and the killer, in theory.

[Quin]

And I'll also say I'd like to believe your claim is true, and I've tried today to think of ways that it could be true but I just can't come up with anything other than we have a redundancy.

If you aren't the doctor yourself, and you're under the impression there are two identical roles, why are you so sure I'm the one who is lying?

There are two things that could be true here and you not be lying: 1.) it's a redundancy. 2.) my lack of experience with this type of game set up is precluding me from seeing a way what I know to be true and you being an odd night doctor could simultaneously be true. I tried to clarify what I know to be true further with the hosts but as I said earlier today, they said it would be cheating for them to clarify any further than they've done.

If you don't go balls to the wall against this second doctor after my flip, you are bad.

I don't understand what this means. As I said, it could be that my inexperience with this set up is blinding me to an alternative I can't think of.

linki

Quin is saying that because of your stance that there can be no redundancies, and Quin autopsies as the town odd night doctor, that then you must lynch the town odd night doctor that you are claiming to know the existence of, because the same argument would hold true for them.

Oh ok, thanks for the explanation. Actually, my stance isn't that there can be no redundancies. I think Soneji and Golden said in a CF game anything is possible including overlap that screws with claiming. So, that looks like it's possible.

Soneji, I have been more concerned with whether or not Quin is falsifying his claim because the Golden stuff just came up this afternoon and I've not had a chance to read over Golden's posts. The Quin information has been with me since yesterday when I clarified a point with the hosts.

If people for the most part feel like Quin is genuine then I think it's safest to assume there is redundancy or there's an alternative I'm not thinking of because of my lack of experience with this. I don't want someone to be lynched based on my lack of experience.

You heavily implied you don't believe that there are redundancies. You rekindled your idea that I'm lying because of my answer as to whether it was a possibility.

[Strawhenge]

No, I get it. A doctor that can't block their own kill.


lol

Dunno if you're being sarcastic because them letters ain't orangelike, but...aren't doctors of any alignment usually unable to self-target?

He's saying this in relation to the nutella kill, so not sure what self-targeting has to do with it.

Misunderstood 'block their own kill' as 'block themselves from being killed'. Carry on.

[juliets]

[
You heavily implied you don't believe that there are redundancies. You rekindled your idea that I'm lying because of my answer as to whether it was a possibility.

I think I responded based on the people who said that it was highly unlikely or 0% possible. The other posts were separate.

[Quin]

No, I get it. A doctor that can't block their own kill.


lol

Dunno if you're being sarcastic because them letters ain't orangelike, but...aren't doctors of any alignment usually unable to self-target?

He's saying this in relation to the nutella kill, so not sure what self-targeting has to do with it.

Misunderstood 'block their own kill' as 'block themselves from being killed'. Carry on.

I'm running out of energy. The baddies are absolutely loving today.

[Tangrowth]

MP07 will be filling in for Eloh. He is of course very busy and is mostly going to just submit night actions

Sup folks?

So I really shouldn't be playing any mafia right now, but this game looks amazing and sprityo badly needed a replacement for Elo. Tried to help him find one to no avail.

Slank cover: Obviously I'm preoccupied with RL stuff and on mafia break. So I'm around to at least make sure this role doesn't go to waste. I will try to contribute however I can, but it's going to be at like less than 1% normal MP levels. Sorry, but it is what it is. I still figure that's better than the 0% that was being put forth without a replacement.

There's no way I'll be able to read this thing. So please be patient with me regarding my familiarity with in-thread content, even days out. I've popped in occasionally and I've read maybe 1/20-1/15 of the thread overall, but I really don't know what's going on, and I have no intention of reading backwards since I won't even be able to keep caught up I'm sure. So some quick summaries on major events would be appreciated.

I won't really be able to do anything until d5, assuming I'm still alive, but I may cast a vote if I can quickly become acclimated enough to feel comfortable doing so. I'll be around for a little bit off and on until d4 EoD while I continue working.

What immediate concerns or questions can I address?

[Jackofhearts2005]

Am I FUCKING WIFOM???? I DONT KNOW WHAT IT MEANS...INCONCIEVABLE.

I'm so glad you're in this game.

[Fredwood]

Quin is saying that because of your stance that there can be no redundancies, and Quin autopsies as the town odd night doctor, that then you must lynch the town odd night doctor that you are claiming to know the existence of, because the same argument would hold true for them.

Oh ok, thanks for the explanation. Actually, my stance isn't that there can be no redundancies. I think Soneji and Golden said in a CF game anything is possible including overlap that screws with claiming. So, that looks like it's possible.

Soneji, I have been more concerned with whether or not Quin is falsifying his claim because the Golden stuff just came up this afternoon and I've not had a chance to read over Golden's posts. The Quin information has been with me since yesterday when I clarified a point with the hosts.

If people for the most part feel like Quin is genuine then I think it's safest to assume there is redundancy or there's an alternative I'm not thinking of because of my lack of experience with this. I don't want someone to be lynched based on my lack of experience.[/quote]


No, I meant if the deciding factor in your reason to lynch Quin...I wasn't agreeing with what was said, was explaining it. There are other reasons to suspect Quin then the claim, but the claim makes them hard to ignore.

Also, I don't know if anyone else thinks quin is genuine, I'm the only one really having a hard time connecting the cognitive dots for a reason for the claim.

Right now I think we have what 4 votes on Soneji (Sloonei, Speed, JJJ Scotty)

and 3 on quin? (Straw, Golden, and you? Did you vote)

2 on Golden (Soneji, Quin)...

I hope more people don't just jump on Soenji like Scotty did with hard lynch being only 7.

[Golden]

What immediate concerns or questions can I address?

Who did Eloh target night one. Fredwood, Jay, or other?

[Strawhenge]

What immediate concerns or questions can I address?

1. Are you scum? If so, who are your friends?

2. Do you have any comment as to the political unrest in Fuck Mountain during your absence, your majesty?

[Fredwood]

Quin is saying that because of your stance that there can be no redundancies, and Quin autopsies as the town odd night doctor, that then you must lynch the town odd night doctor that you are claiming to know the existence of, because the same argument would hold true for them.

Oh ok, thanks for the explanation. Actually, my stance isn't that there can be no redundancies. I think Soneji and Golden said in a CF game anything is possible including overlap that screws with claiming. So, that looks like it's possible.

Soneji, I have been more concerned with whether or not Quin is falsifying his claim because the Golden stuff just came up this afternoon and I've not had a chance to read over Golden's posts. The Quin information has been with me since yesterday when I clarified a point with the hosts.

If people for the most part feel like Quin is genuine then I think it's safest to assume there is redundancy or there's an alternative I'm not thinking of because of my lack of experience with this. I don't want someone to be lynched based on my lack of experience.

No, I meant if the deciding factor in your reason to lynch Quin...I wasn't agreeing with what was said, was explaining it. There are other reasons to suspect Quin then the claim, but the claim makes them hard to ignore.

Also, I don't know if anyone else thinks quin is genuine, I'm the only one really having a hard time connecting the cognitive dots for a reason for the claim.

Right now I think we have what 4 votes on Soneji (Sloonei, Speed, JJJ Scotty)

and 3 on quin? (Straw, Golden, and you? Did you vote)

2 on Golden (Soneji, Quin)...

I hope more people don't just jump on Soenji like Scotty did with hard lynch being only 7.

I HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO PROPERLY EDIT THAT POST I got carried away with editing it and actually took away a quote tag.