Phenon Mafia: ENDGAME - Snuffed

[Dyslexicon]

If someone comes up with a good reason behind the kill, I'll praise Cuthulu.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

unvote

vote speedchuck

What? Are you jabbing me for a reaction? Seems to me like this came out of nowhere.

I tracked you killing Scotty last night. Sorry pal. No use spilling the beans without fostering an environment where people have to solve though. It can help find the other evil-doer.

[Dyslexicon]

unvote

vote speedchuck

What? Are you jabbing me for a reaction? Seems to me like this came out of nowhere.

I tracked you killing Scotty last night. Sorry pal. No use spilling the beans without fostering an environment where people have to solve though. It can help find the other evil-doer.

Oh, god praise, give me the gift of seeing red on Speed. \o/

[speedchuck]

unvote

vote speedchuck

What? Are you jabbing me for a reaction? Seems to me like this came out of nowhere.

I tracked you killing Scotty last night. Sorry pal. No use spilling the beans without fostering an environment where people have to solve though. It can help find the other evil-doer.

Bruh.

I didn't visit scotty last night.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Bruh.

I didn't visit scotty last night.

Clearly something is up then. Who'd you visit?

[Fredwood]

The evidence that they still exist is we had a kill last night and no one seems to have heard of an sk who inherits a mafia kill.

There's definitely a precedent for inherited kills on The Syndicate. It might not be so for sprityo's homeland. It should also be stated that the likely LMS independent here is not a serial killer but instead a marker/demo man. Who knows what kind of mechanical details that entails.

If I'm a LMS I'd rather mark then inherit the kill. The mark is ostensibly more powerful then a NK. NK turns you into something that can be interacted with during the night phase.

Unless they can do both, which would be an answer to the why fire the power at the time they did. (IE they kill all the mafia and still can mark). But I seriously doubt it.

I don't think meta mechanical numbers read is useful. "There can't be x amount of scum because it doesn't makes sense"... The fact is there was a night kill, if the LMS inherited it, again no proof, why does the marker choose to kill that way instead of marking?

If it's a forced inherit, it makes even less sense than before for the marker to off the entire mafia when they did.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

If it's a forced inherit, it makes even less sense than before for the marker to off the entire mafia when they did.

So the marker knew Golden and Quin were scum?

[speedchuck]

Bruh.

I didn't visit scotty last night.

Clearly something is up then. Who'd you visit?

You.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

unvote

[Fredwood]

If it's a forced inherit, it makes even less sense than before for the marker to off the entire mafia when they did.

So the marker knew Golden and Quin were scum?

I'd think they thought there would be a high probability that at least one of them were.

[speedchuck]

You could have asked without giving me bs about scotty

[JaggedJimmyJay]

You could have asked without giving me bs about scotty

It's not just your target I'm interested in. I have no idea what you might have done to me in the night phase. Clearly given prior discussion you're not a protective role.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

To ensure this causes no confusion later: I did not track speedchuck.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

If it's a forced inherit, it makes even less sense than before for the marker to off the entire mafia when they did.

So the marker knew Golden and Quin were scum?

I'd think they thought there would be a high probability that at least one of them were.

That's not the argument you're making. You're talking about the strategy inherent to the marker eliminating the mafia team, something they couldn't have known. Indeed, your argument appears backwards to me. In a scenario where the marker inherits the kill, wouldn't they have more incentive to eliminate the mafia team? Removing other players from the game is the most fundamental means for any anti-town player to move closer to their win condition.

[speedchuck]

There are certain targets in the game that I can visit that are of benefit to me, and by extension town. I was given their names at game start. 3 of them. All but one has flipped already. Unfortunately, one was Marmot. The second was Nutella. You weren't the third.

I get a doublevote the day after I find one.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

There are certain targets in the game that I can visit that are of benefit to me, and by extension town. I was given their names at game start. 3 of them. All but one has flipped already. Unfortunately, one was Marmot. The second was Nutella. You weren't the third.

I get a doublevote the day after I find one.

Are you permitted to reveal the 3 names?

[speedchuck]

Jeremy Bellic
Cara O' Neil
Robert Crawford

[Fredwood]

If it's a forced inherit, it makes even less sense than before for the marker to off the entire mafia when they did.

So the marker knew Golden and Quin were scum?

I'd think they thought there would be a high probability that at least one of them were.

That's not the argument you're making. You're talking about the strategy inherent to the marker eliminating the mafia team, something they couldn't have known. Indeed, your argument appears backwards to me. In a scenario where the marker inherits the kill, wouldn't they have more incentive to eliminate the mafia team? Removing other players from the game is the most fundamental means for any anti-town player to move closer to their win condition.

In hindsight one can say almost anything about inference of an autopsied players guilt. He knew that he marks on Quin and Golden, and that there was a definite possibility that they were mafia. If they were gaming the numbers, that would make the whole 5 mafia thing stuck in their mind.

So if I'm the marker, I activate the kill, there's a better than 50 percent chance, to my estimation that the entire mafia gets eliminated. Yes, 3 players removed is beneficial to them, but not when the removal of all 3 of those players leave you in a 1v7 scenario with no other way to reduce the numbers. I'm not saying that they knew for sure that Quin and Golden were mafia, I'm saying they had to think it was a possibility. With that knowledge it puts them in a distinct advantage in the end game if they have a killswitch on scum. Why sacrifice your advantage when the majority of your success is luck dependent anyway?

To me the only way you make that play is if you don't feel that you are in danger of being lynched in a 1v7 situation or a POE scenario but are in danger of being NK'd.

Additionally I disagree about wanting to inherit a forced NK. The very nature of the role makes it hard to counter by standard methods, especially with my built in counter being dead. A forced NK takes away that advantage and turns the SK into something that can be either prevented, misdirected or seen.

[Fredwood]

If it's a forced inherit, it makes even less sense than before for the marker to off the entire mafia when they did.

So the marker knew Golden and Quin were scum?

I'd think they thought there would be a high probability that at least one of them were.

That's not the argument you're making. You're talking about the strategy inherent to the marker eliminating the mafia team, something they couldn't have known. Indeed, your argument appears backwards to me. In a scenario where the marker inherits the kill, wouldn't they have more incentive to eliminate the mafia team? Removing other players from the game is the most fundamental means for any anti-town player to move closer to their win condition.

In hindsight one can say almost anything about inference of an autopsied players guilt. He knew that he marks on Quin and Golden, and that there was a definite possibility that they were mafia. If they were gaming the numbers, that would make the whole 5 mafia thing stuck in their mind.

So if I'm the marker, I activate the kill, there's a better than 50 percent chance, to my estimation that the entire mafia gets eliminated. Yes, 3 players removed is beneficial to them, but not when the removal of all 3 of those players leave you in a 1v7 scenario with no other way to reduce the numbers. I'm not saying that they knew for sure that Quin and Golden were mafia, I'm saying they had to think it was a possibility. With that knowledge it puts them in a distinct advantage in the end game if they have a killswitch on scum. Why sacrifice your advantage when the majority of your success is luck dependent anyway?

To me the only way you make that play is if you don't feel that you are in danger of being lynched in a 1v7 situation or a POE scenario but are in danger of being NK'd.

Additionally I disagree about wanting to inherit a forced NK. The very nature of the role makes it hard to counter by standard methods, especially with its built in counter being dead. A forced NK takes away that advantage and turns the SK into something that can be either prevented, misdirected or seen.

Edit, decided to change the active pronoun in the first part, missed one on edit.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

To me the only way you make that play is if you don't feel that you are in danger of being lynched in a 1v7 situation or a POE scenario but are in danger of being NK'd.

So what exactly do you propose the marker should have done? We know already that Quin and Golden were definitely marked by some means or another. Maybe they were marked earlier in the game before suspicion began to mount.

What should the marker do with that?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Jeremy Bellic
Cara O' Neil
Robert Crawford

If there's a Jeremy Bellic out there who is not speedchuck himself, then I think he's close to confirmed non-mafia. That Marmot was one of the other two would seemingly break the role in part if speedchuck is mafia as well, because that information can easily be discerned in BTSC.

"Is one of you Robert Crawford?"

"Hey, that's me!"

NOTE: If your character's name is Jeremy Bellic, please don't claim that without first checking with sprityo. That might amount to a "flavor claim" which is discouraged in the OP, depending upon how he defines that.

[Fredwood]

To me the only way you make that play is if you don't feel that you are in danger of being lynched in a 1v7 situation or a POE scenario but are in danger of being NK'd.

So what exactly do you propose the marker should have done? We know already that Quin and Golden were definitely marked by some means or another. Maybe they were marked earlier in the game before suspicion began to mount.

What should the marker do with that?

I would have sat on it. Neither of them were likely dying that phase, Long Con was pretty much dead.

A Mafia NK and another mark makes the numbers 8 people with kill control over 3 of them. I let everyone bicker between Golden and Quin activate bomb late in the phase, leave 5 people and mark/kill another person. Leaving myself in a 1v3 situation.

To me it's a much more manageable situation if I wait one day, because my activation are in no danger of dying before then.

[Fredwood]

Let me recheck the numbers There was 11 at the start of Day 5? Long Con Lynch makes it 10, Mafia kill makes it 9 with another mark. So if 9 players left with a 33 percent kill control. Kill 3, leaves 6, kill one more next night phase leaves 5...so it's a 1v4, but it's still better then a 1v7.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I would have sat on it. Neither of them were likely dying that phase, Long Con was pretty much dead.

A Mafia NK and another mark makes the numbers 8 people with kill control over 3 of them. I let everyone bicker between Golden and Quin activate bomb late in the phase, leave 5 people and mark/kill another person. Leaving myself in a 1v3 situation.

To me it's a much more manageable situation if I wait one day, because my activation are in no danger of dying before then.

Problems immediately arising here:

1. Your argument is built around your pursuit of a superior numbers scenario, like the 1 vs. 3 situation. This still relies entirely upon the marker knowing that Golden and Quin are scum. If even one of them is not, then instead of 3 town vs. 1 rogue it's 2 town vs. 1 scum vs. 1 rogue. If neither of them are, then it's 1 town vs. 2 scum vs. 1 rogue. The best case in those is a kingmaker scenario where the townies vote on the winner against their will. Consider the current scenario again under the same circumstances:

If the mafia are eliminated, then right now it is presumably 6 town vs. 1 rogue. The marker couldn't know the mafia would be eliminated. If one of Quin and Golden is scum, it's 5 town vs. 1 scum vs. 1 rogue. If neither of them are scum, it's 4 town vs. 2 scum vs. 1 rogue. These aren't terrible situations for an LMS player either.

2. Quin and Golden were almost certainly not the only players marked. The marker could have expected someone else to die too, perhaps a town read, but that player had been demarked by Jack or otherwise redirected by one of the bus drivers.

3. This again hinges on the notion that the marker has a choice regarding when the detonation occurs. I have personally written a demo man role where there was no element of choice -- Strawhenge mentioned it earlier today.

[Fredwood]

Best case scenario would have been hoping for a mislynch today after activating the marks for a 1v3 on Day 7...so my math is still possible.

[Fredwood]

I would have sat on it. Neither of them were likely dying that phase, Long Con was pretty much dead.

A Mafia NK and another mark makes the numbers 8 people with kill control over 3 of them. I let everyone bicker between Golden and Quin activate bomb late in the phase, leave 5 people and mark/kill another person. Leaving myself in a 1v3 situation.

To me it's a much more manageable situation if I wait one day, because my activation are in no danger of dying before then.

Problems immediately arising here:

1. Your argument is built around your pursuit of a superior numbers scenario, like the 1 vs. 3 situation. This still relies entirely upon the marker knowing that Golden and Quin are scum. If even one of them is not, then instead of 3 town vs. 1 rogue it's 2 town vs. 1 scum vs. 1 rogue. If neither of them are, then it's 1 town vs. 2 scum vs. 1 rogue. The best case in those is a kingmaker scenario where the townies vote on the winner against their will. Consider the current scenario again under the same circumstances:

If the mafia are eliminated, then right now it is presumably 6 town vs. 1 rogue. The marker couldn't know the mafia would be eliminated. If one of Quin and Golden is scum, it's 5 town vs. 1 scum vs. 1 rogue. If neither of them are scum, it's 4 town vs. 2 scum vs. 1 rogue. These aren't terrible situations for an LMS player either.

2. Quin and Golden were almost certainly not the only players marked. The marker could have expected someone else to die too, perhaps a town read, but that player had been demarked by Jack or otherwise redirected by one of the bus drivers.

3. This again hinges on the notion that the marker has a choice regarding when the detonation occurs. I have personally written a demo man role where there was no element of choice -- Strawhenge mentioned it earlier today.

3. So did I. The reason I have a hard time digesting the time of detonation is when it occurred. Why does spirit make it more difficult for himself to put a random time on it. Second, why do both activation go off at the same time? If it's random, wouldn't they have gone off separately based on when they were marked not together?


As for the rest.

1. No, it does not. My point is that there had to be a pretty good idea in their head that they were both scum. If I think there's a 50 percent chance that Quin, Golden or LongCon are all scum, I'm happy to let day 5 play out without interference. It's too big of a risk to eliminate the NK, imo.

In the scenario you posited, yes, they're not bad, but they're also not better then a scenario if you wait a day. If they wait a day and one of them is town and one is scum, they're in an even better situation, because then you're in a 2 v 1 v 1 scenario the next day or at worst a 3 v 1 v 1 because it's definitely MYLO at that point.

2. Jack posted all of his targets in thread, so there's no reason for one to expect other marks to go off if Jack visited people he marked earlier, or they're already dead. It would have been very easy for him to know who was marked based off of the information shared in thread.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Do you feel like you've been productive with the role you do have, Fred?

[Fredwood]

Do you feel like you've been productive with the role you do have, Fred?

Considering it was a one shot that I used on scum with an even night power on an odd night...not likely.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Do you feel like you've been productive with the role you do have, Fred?

Considering it was a one shot that I used on scum with an even night power on an odd night...not likely.

If it's over with then is there anything to stop you from claiming it now? I don't recall seeing a claim from you.

[Fredwood]

Do you feel like you've been productive with the role you do have, Fred?

Considering it was a one shot that I used on scum with an even night power on an odd night...not likely.

If it's over with then is there anything to stop you from claiming it now? I don't recall seeing a claim from you.

I'm a Seducer, once per game I can target a player that I lure back to my room, removing them from the game for that night. Additionally I could ask a yes or no question. I asked if Soneji was town and got a "no"

I seduced Soneji on N3 and asked if he was town, got a no. Why is why I was saying I wouldn't vote for anyone but Soneji on Day 4.

[Fredwood]

Oops, messed up the formatting.

[Fredwood]

I take that back, I would have voted Scotty as well, but that's just because he was also on my bad list because of his D3 pressuring of Sloonei and Speed, which I thought was a bit scummy because they were pushing hard for the lynch on him previously. Didn't feel like a strong case and reeked a bit too much of desperation.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm a Seducer, once per game I can target a player that I lure back to my room, removing them from the game for that night. Additionally I could ask a yes or no question. I asked if Soneji was town and got a "no"

I seduced Soneji on N3 and asked if he was town, got a no. Why is why I was saying I wouldn't vote for anyone but Soneji on Day 4.

Let's put that to the test then. Your treatment of Soneji on Day 4:

Your two suspects are Soneji and Scotty

Soneji is red in your rainbow, alongside Scotty.

You thought we were giving Soneji a pass "because we learn nothing from his lynch"

Spoiler: show

No, I meant if the deciding factor in your reason to lynch Quin...I wasn't agreeing with what was said, was explaining it. There are other reasons to suspect Quin then the claim, but the claim makes them hard to ignore.

Also, I don't know if anyone else thinks quin is genuine, I'm the only one really having a hard time connecting the cognitive dots for a reason for the claim.

Right now I think we have what 4 votes on Soneji (Sloonei, Speed, JJJ Scotty)

and 3 on quin? (Straw, Golden, and you? Did you vote)

2 on Golden (Soneji, Quin)...

I hope more people don't just jump on Soenji like Scotty did with hard lynch being only 7.

You tallied the votes on Soneji, and none of them were your votes. You then said that last sentence, cautioning people against "jumping on Soneji" given the hammer situation.

More play-by-play announcing of the tally

Again "who even likes Soneji anyway"

After the day ended and Soneji was lynched:

Spoiler: show

Fred wood, I see you lurking,

Why didn't you vote yesterday?

Who would you have voted?

Was going to vote Soneji. The prime times that I could have voted him would have stalemated the vote or hammered the vote, that last minute was ridiculous and was trying to vote but got linki'd to death before the day ended.

You were present with 9 minutes prior to the deadline, and we all know Soneji was only hammered at the very last second by some quick work from MP and Dizzy. You had opportunities, particularly given the lynch was tied between Soneji and Quin for some time.

~~~

Most importantly, I don't see any moment where you declare that Soneji is the only vote you'd make, or where you cast severe and confident suspicion on Soneji, or you do anything to hint that you know based upon your night action that Soneji is not town. Show me what I am missing.

[Fredwood]

Last post. I did...when Jack was pressuring to make a commitment to him or Quin. Juliets even asked who I wanted to lynch instead.

I said like Scotty did...Scotty jumped in, said he hadn't read anything and then voted for Soneji with no concern for the vote situation or discussion at the time. When warning against the hammers had been prevalent to that point. Just thought it was concerning that he voted at that time and had no idea what the situation was.

The vote count was an estimation, it turned out to be wrong.

9 minutes left, a vote for Soneji would have resulted in a tied lynch between him and LongCon. Just because I would have only voted for someone didn't mean I was going to take a chance of the lynch being stalled...the only reason there would have been a mislynch was because Quin Self voted, and opened the door for Soneji to force a tie between him and Quin. Those votes were moving back and forth rather rapidly, with Soneji being one away from hammer at times, to Quin and LonCon being away at hammer at certain times. I was just beaten to the punch by Diz. That's a lesson learned about EoD here, that holding your vote til the end isn't always the best, I should have voted with an hour to go, that's on me and if I get lynched for it, so be it.

As to the giving him a pass thing, I believe it was posted somewhere that we were going after the active scum first, and I had been bringing up Soneji's name for days at that point and everyone wanted to argue about Quin.

[Fredwood]

Also, I believe I was still concerned about info dumping being a modkillalbe offense, so I wasn't sure how to say I had information without saying I had information, so I kept bringing up his name as much as I could in order to get people to not forget about him.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm less concerned about your voting behavior, Fred. What I'm trying to understand is why there is no real indicator in your posts on Day 4 that you knew Soneji was not a member of the town faction. That is a very significant claim you have made -- you literally knew through information derived from your role that Soneji was not to be trusted -- I'd expect that to show up in your posts. You needn't have necessarily claimed it outright, but it should have been very clear that you wanted to lynch Soneji and only Soneji. No other suspicion could have possibly contended with what you knew.

Especially in that final EOD sequence when Quin, Long Con, and Soneji were all under so much pressure and it became clear that one of them would die -- why didn't you do everything in your power to ensure it was Soneji who was lynched? You didn't have the same advantage of information about Quin or Long Con, so there's no feasible reason you could have been okay with lynching either of them when you knew the Soneji option would result in a non-town flip. Please just walk me through what you were doing there, because it isn't making sense to me.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Also, I believe I was still concerned about info dumping being a modkillalbe offense, so I wasn't sure how to say I had information without saying I had information, so I kept bringing up his name as much as I could in order to get people to not forget about him.

?

By that point in the game, I had openly claimed tracker. Golden had openly claimed watcher. Silver Lantern had openly claimed vigilante. nutella had openly claimed one-shot day cop. What was there to be concerned about?

[Fredwood]

I'm less concerned about your voting behavior, Fred. What I'm trying to understand is why there is no real indicator in your posts on Day 4 that you knew Soneji was not a member of the town faction. That is a very significant claim you have made -- you literally knew through information derived from your role that Soneji was not to be trusted -- I'd expect that to show up in your posts. You needn't have necessarily claimed it outright, but it should have been very clear that you wanted to lynch Soneji and only Soneji. No other suspicion could have possibly contended with what you knew.

Especially in that final EOD sequence when Quin, Long Con, and Soneji were all under so much pressure and it became clear that one of them would die -- why didn't you do everything in your power to ensure it was Soneji who was lynched? You didn't have the same advantage of information about Quin or Long Con, so there's no feasible reason you could have been okay with lynching either of them when you knew the Soneji option would result in a non-town flip. Please just walk me through what you were doing there, because it isn't making sense to me.

I thought it was clear that I only wanted to lynch Soneji. I would have been okay with Scotty, and when I would mention, I would mention Soneji more at that point Scotty wasn't a serious consideration. I mean short of bolding it and saying LISTEN HERE MOTHER FUCKERS[/b] what else should have I done? I kept warning about wasting more time and resources on Jack and Quin, pretty sure I told Sloonei that it was better to kill Soneji because he was a better choice.

Again...the final sequence it wasn't clear that Soneji would be lynched, It was Quin and Long Con, then there were a couple of votes back up to Soneji that if I had voted for him would have caused a tie. Then all the vote swapping, like I said, to do it over again I would have voted earlier...I agree I fucked up, and there was moments of confusion. But I do recall being that late in and saying if I vote soneji I tie the vote and the last thing we needed was a no lynch.

[Fredwood]

Also, I believe I was still concerned about info dumping being a modkillalbe offense, so I wasn't sure how to say I had information without saying I had information, so I kept bringing up his name as much as I could in order to get people to not forget about him.

?

By that point in the game, I had openly claimed tracker. Golden had openly claimed watcher. Silver Lantern had openly claimed vigilante. nutella had openly claimed one-shot day cop. What was there to be concerned about?

Power claiming is a little bit different then info dumping I think. No one had used any of the info to lynch anybody. So there was a distinction between the two in my mind at that point. I don't see how I get to one without explaining the other.

Additionally, if I could have gotten him lynched without spilling everything it's a much better situation to be in, no more information is released to mafia then is needed.

[Fredwood]

Anyway night.

“My tomb shall be in a spot where the north wind may scatter roses over it.”

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Additionally, if I could have gotten him lynched without spilling everything it's a much better situation to be in, no more information is released to mafia then is needed.

But!

But but but... one shot!



I'll think over what you've said Fred. In any case thank you for dealing with my interrogation. I don't quite understand the way you've played it, but that doesn't mean you're dishonest. Sometimes civilians are the most confusing players there are. I'll see what others think.

[Fredwood]

I lied and ruined my poetic sendoff, but I caught that at the end.

I know it's a one-shot, they don't know it's a one shot. Even if I say it's a one shot, how likely are they to believe me anyway?

NP, it's pretty damning for me any way I slice it. So it's not as if my hole is any deeper than it was before, I'm just the best target right now based off POE and really don't have a lot to defend myself with. If I wasn't me I'd be inclined to lynch me too.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I lied and ruined my poetic sendoff, but I caught that at the end.

I know it's a one-shot, they don't know it's a one shot. Even if I say it's a one shot, how likely are they to believe me anyway?

So they kill you while you're vanilla and the active roles press on. That's a good thing!

At this point it's strategic critique which isn't the greatest determinant of alignment. So we'll see how I feel in the morning. Maybe I will solve the game in a dream and all of you will witness my great epiphany.

[Golden]

I lied and ruined my poetic sendoff, but I caught that at the end.

I know it's a one-shot, they don't know it's a one shot. Even if I say it's a one shot, how likely are they to believe me anyway?

So they kill you while you're vanilla and the active roles press on. That's a good thing!

At this point it's strategic critique which isn't the greatest determinant of alignment. So we'll see how I feel in the morning. Maybe I will solve the game in a dream and all of you will witness my great epiphany.

last night I dreamed I worked for a large private law firm. More of a nightmare really.

[juliets]

I'm not understanding the fear of info-dumping. There's nothing in the rules about info-dumping and I thought it was always allowed in closed set ups. I do understand the issue of not wanting to say the role power even if it's one shot due to the mafia potentially not believing the claim.

Is the MP power issue solved to everyone's satisfaction?

I'm off to read Fred's posts to see what I think about the Soneji knowledge.

[juliets]

Fred, can you explain this seeming discrepancy? When Jack flipped as a marker and the subject of demo man came up you said:

Damn. Oh, God...though I have to write down this role for my future games if I run any. As a mod I love the idea for a neutral killer, as a player it's fucking terrifying lol.

and this:

My first thought when I see something about marking is a demolition man.

Could you explain what that is?

<snipped gif>

No idea what a marker is or what a Demolition Man is.

Yet last night in the discussion with JJJ you said this (see underlined comment by JJJ and underlined corresponding comment by you):

Spoiler: show

I would have sat on it. Neither of them were likely dying that phase, Long Con was pretty much dead.

A Mafia NK and another mark makes the numbers 8 people with kill control over 3 of them. I let everyone bicker between Golden and Quin activate bomb late in the phase, leave 5 people and mark/kill another person. Leaving myself in a 1v3 situation.

To me it's a much more manageable situation if I wait one day, because my activation are in no danger of dying before then.

Problems immediately arising here:

1. Your argument is built around your pursuit of a superior numbers scenario, like the 1 vs. 3 situation. This still relies entirely upon the marker knowing that Golden and Quin are scum. If even one of them is not, then instead of 3 town vs. 1 rogue it's 2 town vs. 1 scum vs. 1 rogue. If neither of them are, then it's 1 town vs. 2 scum vs. 1 rogue. The best case in those is a kingmaker scenario where the townies vote on the winner against their will. Consider the current scenario again under the same circumstances:

If the mafia are eliminated, then right now it is presumably 6 town vs. 1 rogue. The marker couldn't know the mafia would be eliminated. If one of Quin and Golden is scum, it's 5 town vs. 1 scum vs. 1 rogue. If neither of them are scum, it's 4 town vs. 2 scum vs. 1 rogue. These aren't terrible situations for an LMS player either.

2. Quin and Golden were almost certainly not the only players marked. The marker could have expected someone else to die too, perhaps a town read, but that player had been demarked by Jack or otherwise redirected by one of the bus drivers.

3. This again hinges on the notion that the marker has a choice regarding when the detonation occurs. I have personally written a demo man role where there was no element of choice -- Strawhenge mentioned it earlier today.

3. So did I. The reason I have a hard time digesting the time of detonation is when it occurred. Why does spirit make it more difficult for himself to put a random time on it. Second, why do both activation go off at the same time? If it's random, wouldn't they have gone off separately based on when they were marked not together?


As for the rest.

1. No, it does not. My point is that there had to be a pretty good idea in their head that they were both scum. If I think there's a 50 percent chance that Quin, Golden or LongCon are all scum, I'm happy to let day 5 play out without interference. It's too big of a risk to eliminate the NK, imo.

In the scenario you posited, yes, they're not bad, but they're also not better then a scenario if you wait a day. If they wait a day and one of them is town and one is scum, they're in an even better situation, because then you're in a 2 v 1 v 1 scenario the next day or at worst a 3 v 1 v 1 because it's definitely MYLO at that point.

2. Jack posted all of his targets in thread, so there's no reason for one to expect other marks to go off if Jack visited people he marked earlier, or they're already dead. It would have been very easy for him to know who was marked based off of the information shared in thread.

So in one place you're saying you never heard of a demo man and in another place you are saying you have put it in a game before. Is there something here I am misunderstanding?

[juliets]

Ok, I read through the vote for the Soneji lynch and it seems to me there were prime opportunities for Fred to vote for Soneji. This was the count at 10:34 pm:

It's that time AAAAAAAAAAAAAA

VOTALS:

Soneji (4): speedchuck, Sloonei, Scotty, juliets
Quin (5): Golden, Strawhenge, MP, Long Con, JJJ
Long Con (3): Quin, Soneji, Dyslexicon,


With 13 Alive it takes 7 to Lynch, 3 to Soft Lynch

Day ends in 25 minutes

After this JJJ voted Soneji at 10:37 pm putting the vote at 5. The hammer was 7 so there was still an opportunity to vote after JJJ voted.

The 6th vote didn't come until 10:42 pm when MP voted for Soneji.

Then MP unvoted Soneji at 10:48 bringing the vote back down to 5 presenting another opportunity to vote.

AT 10:52 the totals were presented so there should have been no confusion about what the vote was:

It's Dare

VOTALS:

Soneji (5): speedchuck, Sloonei, Scotty, juliets, JJJ,
Quin (4): Golden, Strawhenge, Long Con, MP
Long Con (3): Quin, Soneji, Dyslexicon,


With 13 Alive it takes 7 to Lynch, 3 to Soft Lynch

Day ends in 15 minutes

MP had voted for Quin and then Quin voted for Quin and at 10:56 the totals were presented again still showing Soneji at 5 and Quin now at 4. Another good opportunity to vote for Soneji.

At 10:58 Soneji votes to Lynch Quin, tying it.

At 10:59 MP and Dyslexicon vote to Lynch Soneji.

Fred posted at 10:43, 10:47, 10:50, and 10:51 but none of those were votes for Soneji.

I'm just having a hard time seeing this as someone who knew Soneji was bad and didn't vote, especially between 10:52 and 10:59. I understand we were experiencing major linki but that was a 7 minute span.

I will think about this some more and I'm interested to see where JJJ's head is this morning.

[Fredwood]

Fred, can you explain this seeming discrepancy? When Jack flipped as a marker and the subject of demo man came up you said:

Damn. Oh, God...though I have to write down this role for my future games if I run any. As a mod I love the idea for a neutral killer, as a player it's fucking terrifying lol.

and this:

My first thought when I see something about marking is a demolition man.

Could you explain what that is?

We were talking about the demo man being a random detonation based ability, not what it is.

<snipped gif>

No idea what a marker is or what a Demolition Man is.

Yet last night in the discussion with JJJ you said this (see underlined comment by JJJ and underlined corresponding comment by you):

Spoiler: show

I would have sat on it. Neither of them were likely dying that phase, Long Con was pretty much dead.

A Mafia NK and another mark makes the numbers 8 people with kill control over 3 of them. I let everyone bicker between Golden and Quin activate bomb late in the phase, leave 5 people and mark/kill another person. Leaving myself in a 1v3 situation.

To me it's a much more manageable situation if I wait one day, because my activation are in no danger of dying before then.

Problems immediately arising here:

1. Your argument is built around your pursuit of a superior numbers scenario, like the 1 vs. 3 situation. This still relies entirely upon the marker knowing that Golden and Quin are scum. If even one of them is not, then instead of 3 town vs. 1 rogue it's 2 town vs. 1 scum vs. 1 rogue. If neither of them are, then it's 1 town vs. 2 scum vs. 1 rogue. The best case in those is a kingmaker scenario where the townies vote on the winner against their will. Consider the current scenario again under the same circumstances:

If the mafia are eliminated, then right now it is presumably 6 town vs. 1 rogue. The marker couldn't know the mafia would be eliminated. If one of Quin and Golden is scum, it's 5 town vs. 1 scum vs. 1 rogue. If neither of them are scum, it's 4 town vs. 2 scum vs. 1 rogue. These aren't terrible situations for an LMS player either.

2. Quin and Golden were almost certainly not the only players marked. The marker could have expected someone else to die too, perhaps a town read, but that player had been demarked by Jack or otherwise redirected by one of the bus drivers.

3. This again hinges on the notion that the marker has a choice regarding when the detonation occurs. I have personally written a demo man role where there was no element of choice -- Strawhenge mentioned it earlier today.

3. So did I. The reason I have a hard time digesting the time of detonation is when it occurred. Why does spirit make it more difficult for himself to put a random time on it. Second, why do both activation go off at the same time? If it's random, wouldn't they have gone off separately based on when they were marked not together?


As for the rest.

1. No, it does not. My point is that there had to be a pretty good idea in their head that they were both scum. If I think there's a 50 percent chance that Quin, Golden or LongCon are all scum, I'm happy to let day 5 play out without interference. It's too big of a risk to eliminate the NK, imo.

In the scenario you posited, yes, they're not bad, but they're also not better then a scenario if you wait a day. If they wait a day and one of them is town and one is scum, they're in an even better situation, because then you're in a 2 v 1 v 1 scenario the next day or at worst a 3 v 1 v 1 because it's definitely MYLO at that point.

2. Jack posted all of his targets in thread, so there's no reason for one to expect other marks to go off if Jack visited people he marked earlier, or they're already dead. It would have been very easy for him to know who was marked based off of the information shared in thread.

So in one place you're saying you never heard of a demo man and in another place you are saying you have put it in a game before. Is there something here I am misunderstanding?

[juliets]

Does speedchuck's role claim make sense? Does it sound like a reasonable role for this game? It's not a role I am familiar with.

Fred did you mean to add something to my post or am I just not seeing it?

[Fredwood]

Fred, can you explain this seeming discrepancy? When Jack flipped as a marker and the subject of demo man came up you said:

Damn. Oh, God...though I have to write down this role for my future games if I run any. As a mod I love the idea for a neutral killer, as a player it's fucking terrifying lol.

and this:

My first thought when I see something about marking is a demolition man.

Could you explain what that is?

We were talking about the demo man being a random detonation based ability, not what it is.

<snipped gif>

No idea what a marker is or what a Demolition Man is.

Yet last night in the discussion with JJJ you said this (see underlined comment by JJJ and underlined corresponding comment by you):

Spoiler: show

I would have sat on it. Neither of them were likely dying that phase, Long Con was pretty much dead.

A Mafia NK and another mark makes the numbers 8 people with kill control over 3 of them. I let everyone bicker between Golden and Quin activate bomb late in the phase, leave 5 people and mark/kill another person. Leaving myself in a 1v3 situation.

To me it's a much more manageable situation if I wait one day, because my activation are in no danger of dying before then.

Problems immediately arising here:

1. Your argument is built around your pursuit of a superior numbers scenario, like the 1 vs. 3 situation. This still relies entirely upon the marker knowing that Golden and Quin are scum. If even one of them is not, then instead of 3 town vs. 1 rogue it's 2 town vs. 1 scum vs. 1 rogue. If neither of them are, then it's 1 town vs. 2 scum vs. 1 rogue. The best case in those is a kingmaker scenario where the townies vote on the winner against their will. Consider the current scenario again under the same circumstances:

If the mafia are eliminated, then right now it is presumably 6 town vs. 1 rogue. The marker couldn't know the mafia would be eliminated. If one of Quin and Golden is scum, it's 5 town vs. 1 scum vs. 1 rogue. If neither of them are scum, it's 4 town vs. 2 scum vs. 1 rogue. These aren't terrible situations for an LMS player either.

2. Quin and Golden were almost certainly not the only players marked. The marker could have expected someone else to die too, perhaps a town read, but that player had been demarked by Jack or otherwise redirected by one of the bus drivers.

3. This again hinges on the notion that the marker has a choice regarding when the detonation occurs. I have personally written a demo man role where there was no element of choice -- Strawhenge mentioned it earlier today.

3. So did I. The reason I have a hard time digesting the time of detonation is when it occurred. Why does spirit make it more difficult for himself to put a random time on it. Second, why do both activation go off at the same time? If it's random, wouldn't they have gone off separately based on when they were marked not together?


As for the rest.

1. No, it does not. My point is that there had to be a pretty good idea in their head that they were both scum. If I think there's a 50 percent chance that Quin, Golden or LongCon are all scum, I'm happy to let day 5 play out without interference. It's too big of a risk to eliminate the NK, imo.

In the scenario you posited, yes, they're not bad, but they're also not better then a scenario if you wait a day. If they wait a day and one of them is town and one is scum, they're in an even better situation, because then you're in a 2 v 1 v 1 scenario the next day or at worst a 3 v 1 v 1 because it's definitely MYLO at that point.

2. Jack posted all of his targets in thread, so there's no reason for one to expect other marks to go off if Jack visited people he marked earlier, or they're already dead. It would have been very easy for him to know who was marked based off of the information shared in thread.

So in one place you're saying you never heard of a demo man and in another place you are saying you have put it in a game before. Is there something here I am misunderstanding?

Oops. We were talking about the potential for the role to be randomly activated, not about if I'd heard of it before.

About the voting, hindsight is 20/20, I remember the EOD being a lot more hectic and flipfloppy then your summary suggests. I fully admit to fucking up and is probably the best case to lynch me. I also don't think it will have a lot to do with why I'm lynched either (Most likely lynched either way), if I ever play again I'll know not to bother waiting to vote.