Phenon: Origins Mafia [END]

[Echo]

Did I just say qualify instead of quantify? Jeeze. need more coffee.

[Echo]

A rainbow:

Alpha
Bravo
Charlie

Golf

Delta
Juliet

Foxtrot

Echo

[sprityo]

Yeah echo is dead

Night 2 ends in 21 hours or 10pm EST tomorrow

Chat to your hearts content

[Julinook]

Bravo, regarding your interaction analysis of Charlie and Echo, I think it seems pretty unlikely that they're teammates.

Is there a particular moment you could point to which brings you to that conclusion?

[Julinook]

Thanks for pulling that quote. I missed that post originally.

Which quote did you miss, and what impact does this exchange have upon your read of Alpha?

[Julinook]

I like Hotel's content on this page. The combination of a confused approach to the game and to making reads with a willingness to give it a shot anyway and commit to those reads rings as genuine to me. I think it's the right mindset too. This is a challenging setup, but all we can do is give it our best shot with whatever reads we can develop under the circumstances.

[Lunatella]

Also there's a significant difference between being dismayed at there being no info flips and flipping the table over and complaining there was no point in playing because we aren't being rewarded with information.

I'm sorry if you think I was being whiny, I've had discussions with Sprityo behind the scenes and made it clear to him that while my opinion is this is a severely civ handicapping element, I vote for flips but would defer to him if he felt like doing so would break his game. I don't appreciate you going on and on about how awful I and others are for saying outright what we see as a balance issue. I am entitled to my opinion and I have been nothing but supportive of whatever Sprityo believes is best for his game while still being honest about my evaluation of the balance. Clearly others think like you and I am fine with it, but I would appreciate if you would move on from continuing to make it a personal attack on me and any one else who stated what they believed to be a problematic mechanic. I am not a whiner and I don't appreciate you continuing to call me names basically. Stop it, or we can take it to the mod.

I apologize to the players and host for my recent absence in the last 48 hours, I have been extremely busy and not getting enough sleep. I just didn't have the time. But I am back now. Please don't take this personally Sprityo and bear with us, this is the holiday season and it might be hard to be as active as normal.

Where are we at here? Are we actually still in Day 2? If so, I'm self voting.

*votes Golf*

[Lunatella]

Oh wait, I remember now, we have a confirmed baddie in Echo, correct?

*votes Echo*

[Spooky Ghost]

I don't appreciate you going on and on about how awful I and others are for saying outright what we see as a balance issue. Etc. Etc. Etc.

I haven't gone on and on about anything. Juliet was the one who brought it back up, and I needed to clarify things because they were acting like I was making things up.

I've been personally done with the subject since the end of day 1. I brought it up in the first place because I didn't feel like the negativity had any purpose other than to make sprityo feel bad. I probably went a little over the top with hyperbole calling the behavior "whining", and I'm sorry for that, but it seemed like the thread was going down a bad path and I wasn't okay with that. I didn't like that players were saying they weren't going to care about the game or take it seriously because there weren't any flips. I also didn't like that it seemed to be bothering sprityo.

I actually just.... don't really care about this topic, if you're here to play mafia then let's play mafia.

[Lunatella]

I don't appreciate you going on and on about how awful I and others are for saying outright what we see as a balance issue. Etc. Etc. Etc.

I haven't gone on and on about anything. Juliet was the one who brought it back up, and I needed to clarify things because they were acting like I was making things up.

I've been personally done with the subject since the end of day 1. I brought it up in the first place because I didn't feel like the negativity had any purpose other than to make sprityo feel bad. I probably went a little over the top with hyperbole calling the behavior "whining", and I'm sorry for that, but it seemed like the thread was going down a bad path and I wasn't okay with that. I didn't like that players were saying they weren't going to care about the game or take it seriously because there weren't any flips. I also didn't like that it seemed to be bothering sprityo.

I actually just.... don't really care about this topic, if you're here to play mafia then let's play mafia.

Cool. I am indeed here to play mafia, so I am in nothing but agreement with you. I apologize for getting frustrated about it.

Now I'm going to eat lunch and I will try to look over everything in the thread again in light of recent events. Also, sorry I am a little discombobulated from my absence.

[Spooky Ghost]

Honestly, if the people who complained in day one are still here to hunt mafia, despite their misgivings then I have already been proven wrong and that's good enough for me.

[Spooky Ghost]

In case I die tonight:

Juliets was suspiciously quick to not only accept that Echo was the real Oracle but also to practically praise Echo for their strategy which involved leveraging possibility of Oracle information in exchange for personal survival. In the light that Echo was a mafia member fake-claiming Oracle, this looks really bad. Juliet was also very quick to drop their suspicion of me and there was also some inconsistency there regarding their reasoning for suspecting me in the first place. The whole thing just felt kinda sketchy I guess. As of right now Juliet is my top scum read.

Bravo and Charlie are probably civ, everyone else I have neutral reads on.

[Principal Skinner]

In case I die tonight:

Juliets was suspiciously quick to not only accept that Echo was the real Oracle but also to practically praise Echo for their strategy which involved leveraging possibility of Oracle information in exchange for personal survival. In the light that Echo was a mafia member fake-claiming Oracle, this looks really bad. Juliet was also very quick to drop their suspicion of me and there was also some inconsistency there regarding their reasoning for suspecting me in the first place. The whole thing just felt kinda sketchy I guess. As of right now Juliet is my top scum read.

Bravo and Charlie are probably civ, everyone else I have neutral reads on.

good post op

Gosh it's quiet in here :\ and I think the night post is (over)due? but add me to the "if I die lynch juliet" club

[Celeste]

In case I die tonight:

Juliets was suspiciously quick to not only accept that Echo was the real Oracle but also to practically praise Echo for their strategy which involved leveraging possibility of Oracle information in exchange for personal survival. In the light that Echo was a mafia member fake-claiming Oracle, this looks really bad. Juliet was also very quick to drop their suspicion of me and there was also some inconsistency there regarding their reasoning for suspecting me in the first place. The whole thing just felt kinda sketchy I guess. As of right now Juliet is my top scum read.

Bravo and Charlie are probably civ, everyone else I have neutral reads on.

Why does this look really bad?

I liked your responses. What did you expect me to do that didn't feel "kinda sketchy". This accussation is trying to fit a narrative son. What would I have to gain as scum by saying these things? Do you feel that your responses were insufficient?

[Celeste]

We could have waited for day two to pull that. Then the oracle would have a choice regarding who to reveal. How unfortunate.

And furthermore, since the oracle is vanilla so long as it lives, I would imagine that the bad guys would avoid killing it. And the good guys would avoid lynching it as well.

So, I don't really want to believe you, Echo. I wonder what your motive is. Bad guy, trying to avoid being lynched? Good guy, trying not to get lynched or killed? Or are you a genuine Oracle, though very short-sighted?

It's not short-sighted, it's a pretty, solid plan,
What would you have done if you were dealt that hand?
Do you have some thoughts on why he took this stand?
I think it's legit, and he/she's a cool little can.

If we accept the scenario where India is the oracle and Echo is the disguiser, this is a funny moment. Juliet protested India's protest of Echo's claim, or more accurately the strategy behind the claim. I'm not sure why Juliet felt the claim-on-day-1 plan was a good one.

Conclusion: it doesn't look great at face value. I'd call them compatible teammates.

Well I feel silly. I just reread the Oracle and realize it reveals one player's role on death. What I thought it meant was it would reveal all players' roles (going forward) upon death.

I'm just going to go sit in a corner now...

[Spooky Ghost]

Well I feel silly. I just reread the Oracle and realize it reveals one player's role on death. What I thought it meant was it would reveal all players' roles (going forward) upon death.

I'm just going to go sit in a corner now...

is this really true?

[Spooky Ghost]

well.... if it is, it at least half explains your agreement with echo's plan, but half unexplains it?

if you really didn't understand how the oracle works then that might have caused you to believe that Echo's bad fake plan was a good real plan. if you thought that the oracle was just a role that we could lynch at any time to have info flips for the rest of the game following that then revealing themselves would have been ideal and we should have voted to lynch Echo on the last day phase.

or if you had everything wrong but the "lynching the oracle does nothing" right then... even then the mafia would have even less reason to target the oracle. the better tactic would have still been to be super town and make themselves a target for the mafia naturally.

there was also a bunch of stuff written in india's posts that you rap-responded back to that should have contradicted your viewpoint of what the oracle did, and prompted you to go back and review the role.

[Lunatella]

Ok, I read over the last four pages to make sure I understood everything that occurred since Echo's death.

Bravo you commented on Echo's post about this crap about Juliet being Wilgy. It was me that posted, but it was not what I actually said. What I had originally said was that Juliet's posts in rap gave my the impression of Juliet possibly being Wilgy. And if it was true it would make me inclined to see Juliet as more town, because the behavior in my mind was more in line with how a town Wilgy would act. But if it were not Wilgy it would make me feel like someone was trying to look like a town leaning Wilgy. Juliet came in and clarified some of what made me think all this and it is no longer relevant. I've dismissed that line of thought as a result.

So it was me he was talking about. I assume he didn't say anything about me specifically because he didn't remember who said it. However, that would make me feel like they may have discussed it in BTSC. Otherwise he would have commented on it when he first read it, if it stood out to him. Which makes me wonder why that might be the case.

[Lunatella]

I doubt I will be the one to die tonight, because I haven't done any hunting in the last cycle at all so I'm not a threat and I have drawn some attention. But if I do die, I think I would also say, lynch Juliet. I'm thinking the reason it might have come up in BTSC was because it was about one of them.

[Julinook]

Why does this look really bad?

I liked your responses. What did you expect me to do that didn't feel "kinda sketchy". This accussation is trying to fit a narrative son. What would I have to gain as scum by saying these things? Do you feel that your responses were insufficient?

This relates to a question I'd asked you before as well. Was it the post you missed that Alpha brought up which changed your mind, or the total collection of responses Alpha gave to your accusations?

[sprityo]

AGH im sorry i missed day start, been getting into the holiday rhythm

FOXTROT HAS BEEN KILLED DURING THE NIGHT.

Day 3 ends in approx 34 hours

[Principal Skinner]

RIP foxtrot.

I'm voting for Juliet, at least for now. Don't want to fall into a tunnel though so I am open to other possibilities.

[Julinook]

Well I feel silly. I just reread the Oracle and realize it reveals one player's role on death. What I thought it meant was it would reveal all players' roles (going forward) upon death.

I'm just going to go sit in a corner now...

I am willing to believe you misinterpreted the role. There is a little ambiguity in its wording. Given the interpretation you did have though, can you describe the expectation you had for it in the scenario where Echo was really the oracle? This is what is important: not merely your interpretation of what the role meant, but your perspective for why you felt Echo's claimed usage of it was good.

[Julinook]

The day phase is going to be a bit shorter apparently given the elongated night, so hopefully we can engage as much communication as possible before making a decision. We've no way of knowing what the ratios are presently, and I think we're better off exercising caution in all pursuits.

[mention]Delta[/mention], I'd like to hear more of your thoughts especially moving forward.

[Julinook]

Under the circumstances, I feel that process of elimination is more important than it usually would be in the typical heist game because we don't have the luxury of assessing players relative to each alignment flip. With that in mind, perhaps it would be a good idea for everyone to try to spell out why each remaining player could be read as a civilian.

[Principal Skinner]

...Yeah, if it meant that, claiming would just ensure that the mafia would avoid killing the claimer so as to prevent us from getting all that info. Still, either way, especially in light of what happened with the disguiser getting revealed, the mafia wouldn't have wanted to kill the oracle no matter what. So, the only possible civ reasons to claim the oracle would be as a measure against having a target on one's own back and as a fake claim to possibly keep the real oracle vulnerable (so at least a civ night death could have the benefit in providing info). It's a little messy, but even if you misunderstood the oracle role in the way you described, it seems a little odd that you defended Echo's claim.

[Julinook]

Echo is in the poll. [mention]sprityo[/mention], letting you know in case it's accidental. Otherwise, shenanigans.

[Spooky Ghost]

I am actually surprised at the kill choice, Foxtrot was far off from a townread for me. RIP foxtrot but thank you for dying and helping us narrow things down.

[Julinook]

Reasons why each player can be a civ:

Alpha - Has been the most active player, hasn't seemed disingenuous in their efforts, doesn't look like a teammate of Echo to me

Charlie - Sincere appearance at face value, consistently involved, is inquisitive and seems to have discernible direction in their effort, received opportunistic vote on Day 1 from Echo

Delta - Only suspicion stated apart from Echo was for Foxtrot, who was just killed. One cannot suggest there was an effort to set up a lynch there.

Golf - Seemed sincere when protesting Alpha's comments about people complaining about game mechanics and when answering questions/accusations

Hotel - Unafraid of providing reads without concern for the challenge of the setup or having fully caught up.

Juliet - Jumped into the rap gimmick after India's proposal of using a style which is harder for the disguiser to mimick, is making an effort to answer accusations

[Julinook]

Rough order for how confident I felt typing those things, from least to most:

Juliet
Delta
Golf
Charlie
Hotel
Alpha

[Spooky Ghost]

aw fuck all the vowels are dead, no we can't spell ANYTHING

[Spooky Ghost]

.........................


i am a vowel

[sprityo]

Echo is in the poll. @sprityo, letting you know in case it's accidental. Otherwise, shenanigans.

Whoops

[Julinook]

Bad, Cad, Hag, Jag, Had, Cab, Jab, Chad, Ah, Ha, Ad, Ab

[Spooky Ghost]

We can still do cabbage.

[Echo]

Foxtrot was killed? Weird. I don't get that at all.

Unfortunately, this Day cycle is going to be especially troublesome for my participation. Sorry, fellow players. I'll see what I can do though.

[Echo]

I'm okay with voting Juliet as well, so I will go ahead and do that now, though I will admit I am rather nervous about it.

That said, I do agree with Bravo that POE is the way to go. The thing is: I'm feeling that most of the players currently in the game are town. Juliet, Foxtrot, and Delta were the only three I didn't feel compelled to read as particularly town, and now Foxtrot is gone, a choice which I can't wrap my head around.

I'd be fine lynching either Delta or Juliet, frankly. If that doesn't end the game though, I'm not sure what to do.

[Spooky Ghost]

I'm okay with voting Juliet as well, so I will go ahead and do that now, though I will admit I am rather nervous about it.

What is the cause of your nervousness?

[Lunatella]

My concern is there isn't much opposition to thislynch. Unless she is a lone baddie left now or her team mate is bussing her.

[Echo]

I'm okay with voting Juliet as well, so I will go ahead and do that now, though I will admit I am rather nervous about it.

What is the cause of your nervousness?

Precisely the words that Golf stole from my mouth:

My concern is there isn't much opposition to thislynch. Unless she is a lone baddie left now or her team mate is bussing her.

[Spooky Ghost]

The only way J could be a lone baddie is if we got extremely lucky with K on day 1.

[Spooky Ghost]

Gonna think out loud for a second.

Delta hasn't expressed any thoughts on Juliet, positive or negative. though to be fair they've only posted 3 times and only talked about echo, india, and foxtrot.

Golf voted for Juliet on day one, I don't see them being teammates. Without flips there's less incentive for distancing, so there'd be no reason to pull such a risky vote with things so close. i think that if Juliet is mafia then Golf probably isn't.

Hotel could be a potential 3rd teammate, assuming Juliets is mafia, early on hotel listed echo as a townread, later voted echo "because why not"

these are the posts where those things happened

Spoiler: show

Not sure what to think of J. Would prefer to avoid that but will vote there if necessary. I'll vote C for now.

Reads after quickly skimming the thread:

Town:
A
G
E

Mafia:
C
F

I'll vote to save G.

Okay, voting Echo because why not. Need to finish catching up and then hopefully can provide some reads. This has been a tough setup to get my mind around.

I think hotel could be a reasonable pick for a mafia team member of Juliet and Echo. I also think that agreeing that 'this lynch seems too easy' and 'there's no opposition to it' is ironically a pretty good way to passively oppose it without being too obvious about it. i'm pretty sure the first 5 posts before and after the night post included the phrase 'we should lynch juliet' in some form. a player other than juliet themself starting a counter wagon would seem obvious and probably result in that players death soon after

i guess what i'm saying is that lack of resistance isn't necessarily a sign that juliet isn't mafia in this circumstance

[Spooky Ghost]

but that's definitely not to say we shouldn't also talk about other players as well

[Julinook]

I have a ton going on today for the holidays and stuff, so I am not sure I'll be around. I'm voting Juliet now. I'll try to pop in closer to the deadline to see any further developments in the continuing dialogue, but I can't make any promises.

[Lunatella]

Placing a vote on Juliet, going to go back and read through Delta because I have no impression of them whatsoever.

[Lunatella]

No wonder I have no impression of him, he only has three posts.

[Principal Skinner]

Dang it's been quiet.

[Celeste]

So um, been traveling yesterday, and a bit busy with family things today.

Looks like y'all took care of everything. See you next game!

[Spooky Ghost]

There's 20 hours left, why not try to defend yourself or submit an alternative suspect?

[Lunatella]

Uh was that a baddie concession?