[ENDGAME] - The Fellowship of the Ring Mafia (LoTR I)

#1301

Still struggling with finding the baddie between Juliets, Speedchuck, INH and Epi.

I probably trust Epi the least but I'm not sure if I could see him as teamed with LC.

#1302

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:33 pm
juliets wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:30 pm
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:23 pm I still don't understand who said what in that mess that you guys were posting. I'm ignoring it. If it's important, it should be restated in a way that I can tell who is saying what.
I think mine and Elo's posts are easy enough to understand but LC's is so convoluted I don't know that I can clarify it well. It appears to me that he didn't read the original posts well which makes me think he was just looking for something to jump on. When I get to that part I'll see what I can do. I have to take a break now though.
Who are you thinking of voting for?

I'm thinking of voting LC but I want to take a last look at his most recent posts.

#1303

juliets wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:30 pm
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:23 pm I still don't understand who said what in that mess that you guys were posting. I'm ignoring it. If it's important, it should be restated in a way that I can tell who is saying what.
I think mine and Elo's posts are easy enough to understand but LC's is so convoluted I don't know that I can clarify it well. It appears to me that he didn't read the original posts well which makes me think he was just looking for something to jump on. When I get to that part I'll see what I can do. I have to take a break now though.

I have to agree. It was almost like he was trying to pin something on me or make me stumble. I think if you read mine and juliet's original posts, their meanings are clear. I have thought LC was bad ever since I first read through his posts when Jack asked me to. And LC even tried to find baddieness in me when I did that. He called me out for doing the ISOs in the order that Jack asked. He said it was weird that I would do that and say I was doing that. I thought it was a really odd and petty thing for him to come at me for. I knew I wouldn't get to all the people on Jack's list, so I wanted to start at the top and that's why I told him I would. Though he has tried several times, LC isn't going to trip me up and it's not going to get to me, because I am not bad. I still think he is and that's why he is going hard after me. I think he thinks I'm an easy civ kill.

#1304

Oh my God, you people are all hilarious. Hilarious! Just vote me already Jesus Christ you're not actually discussing doing anything but that. Good game baddies.

#1305

Long Con wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:08 pm Oh my God, you people are all hilarious. Hilarious! Just vote me already Jesus Christ you're not actually discussing doing anything but that. Good game baddies.

Gah, this sounds sincere. Am I crazy?

#1306

Prognosis, just laughing along with all of this. Has he ever been lynched? He's got all your cojones in a vice.

#1307

Epignosis *

#1308

Oh hi there, 40 minutes later, just checking in again ducked into a corner at work so I don't get caught on my phone, wow isn't it interesting that no one has really tried to stop the Elsie bandwagon in any significant way?

I honestly don't understand why the batteries are holding back, throw a vote on me you freaking cowards, let's get this over with

#1309

*baddies

#1310

we just want to make sure we get it right so we don't lose. Your reactional outburst doesn't make me feel better about you. And my opinion of you has nothing to do with Epi.

#1311

Long Con wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:32 pm Prognosis, just laughing along with all of this. Has he ever been lynched? He's got all your cojones in a vice.

Yes, I have been lynched before. Why do you ask?

No, I'm not laughing. My first order of business was to go through your posts to come up with reasons why you are a civilian, but now I may not even bother.

Long Con wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:15 pm Oh hi there, 40 minutes later, just checking in again ducked into a corner at work so I don't get caught on my phone, wow isn't it interesting that no one has really tried to stop the Elsie bandwagon in any significant way?

I honestly don't understand why the batteries are holding back, throw a vote on me you freaking cowards, let's get this over with

How is there a bandwagon when there is not a single vote cast?

#1312

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:19 pm Epi's gonna hate this post but idgaf.

Epi's last few posts are basically exactly what I expect cause Timmer and DF had a pretty small amount of posts. My main concern is that JJJ voice in the back of my head like "Jack is only drawing the most obvious teammate conclusions" but you know what? DF and Timmer are not Jimmy or Wilgy. I'm not gonna have the same WIFOM problems with them. I'll double down. I don't think Juliets and Eloh are teammates.

@Epignosis

I could answer your concerns about me but I don't see a universe where I get lynch today and I'd rather not spend a lolo day defending myself instead of finding baddies. That said, I think you're town and I don't want your suspicions of me to cause you to vote for the wrong player.

Can you assume I'm town just for today?

No can do.

If I refuse to consider you today, and you are bad, then I have increased my chances of lynching a civilian and losing the game. So no. Everybody gets considered.

#1313

LOL you guys are too much. Top drawer humour!

#1314

Oh, we have until tomorrow. Thank goodness. I'm signing off for the night. Don't vote without me yo.

LC honestly sounds genuine here. I'll probably ISO him tomorrow and actually read all of his posts for once.

#1315

Holy moses i thought it was done tonight

#1316

Look, I'm sorry I was a crappy player but I swear to fucking god I'm Civ

#1317

Okay, one thing I was just thinking about and I need to get into this thread immediately before I forget or whatever... When Jack made his plea that epignosis just denied, and I posted the Lord of the Rings YouTube clip, I thought that was a very real sounding plea from Jack. I believe it.

If Jack were bad, then he doesn't need to make that kind of post, he just needs to stay the course and Lynch long con. Baddie Jack doesn't need epignosis to just trust that he is Civ. I really don't think that scum Jack needs to make that post at that time.

#1318

Every game will go smoother for me if everyone just assumes I'm town.

If LC is town, Epi is bad. It's that simple. The mafia is not Eloh, Juliets, Speedchuck, INH.

So anyone who thinks maybe LC is town now, convince me why Epi is bad.

Cause I genuinely don't see townie LC. He can genuinely not want to get lynched and still be bad.

#1319

Here's the other problem.

If LC is town, and I'm town and INH is town, only one of Juliets and Speedchuck can possibly be town. So why are two of you trying to save him? He'd be the obvious sacrifice for the easy win. Why turn back?

Maybe Juliets and/or Speedchuck is town and having legit doubts on LC. But the three of you? You can't all be town.

#1320

Fire Emblem is sapping the life out of me tonight.

This one will sap the life out of me tomorrow.

#1321

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:06 am Here's the other problem.

If LC is town, and I'm town and INH is town, only one of Juliets and Speedchuck can possibly be town. So why are two of you trying to save him? He'd be the obvious sacrifice for the easy win. Why turn back?

Maybe Juliets and/or Speedchuck is town and having legit doubts on LC. But the three of you? You can't all be town.

I am having serious doubts about LC and speed seems to be having serious doubts as well. So where does that leave me? With a bad INH? I don't really like that either, his Frodo claim sounded legit, though I don't know INH's game very well. (All I remember is that in one game he said he invented an algorithm or something to tell positively if people were bad which was hilarious.).

Well, tomorrow is another day.

#1322

juliets wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:53 am
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:06 am Here's the other problem.

If LC is town, and I'm town and INH is town, only one of Juliets and Speedchuck can possibly be town. So why are two of you trying to save him? He'd be the obvious sacrifice for the easy win. Why turn back?

Maybe Juliets and/or Speedchuck is town and having legit doubts on LC. But the three of you? You can't all be town.
I am having serious doubts about LC and speed seems to be having serious doubts as well. So where does that leave me? With a bad INH? I don't really like that either, his Frodo claim sounded legit, though I don't know INH's game very well. (All I remember is that in one game he said he invented an algorithm or something to tell positively if people were bad which was hilarious.).

Well, tomorrow is another day.

If INH was bad, he'd have been counterclaimed.

For instance, say I was the real Frodo. I'd know that an INH lynch is a guaranteed scum lynch. I'd be all over that. Additionally, the longer INH's claim goes uncontested, the more likely people are to believe him over me when it comes down to it so I should counterclaim immediately.

But nobody counterclaimed. Cause INH is town.

I'm more okay with an LC lynch by the minute.

#1323

That is such an ugly conclusion. The whole post was legit, ending with a flop. DUDE I believed in you. Believe in me.

#1324

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:03 am
juliets wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:53 am
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:06 am Here's the other problem.

If LC is town, and I'm town and INH is town, only one of Juliets and Speedchuck can possibly be town. So why are two of you trying to save him? He'd be the obvious sacrifice for the easy win. Why turn back?

Maybe Juliets and/or Speedchuck is town and having legit doubts on LC. But the three of you? You can't all be town.
I am having serious doubts about LC and speed seems to be having serious doubts as well. So where does that leave me? With a bad INH? I don't really like that either, his Frodo claim sounded legit, though I don't know INH's game very well. (All I remember is that in one game he said he invented an algorithm or something to tell positively if people were bad which was hilarious.).

Well, tomorrow is another day.
If INH was bad, he'd have been counterclaimed.

For instance, say I was the real Frodo. I'd know that an INH lynch is a guaranteed scum lynch. I'd be all over that. Additionally, the longer INH's claim goes uncontested, the more likely people are to believe him over me when it comes down to it so I should counterclaim immediately.

But nobody counterclaimed. Cause INH is town.

I'm more okay with an LC lynch by the minute.

Ah right someone would have counterclaimed because we know all the flips not just the lynches so I can count on INH to be Frodo. That's at least one person I can count on in this game.

Long Con, tell me again who is bad and why and it better not be me because just like in GOC I am good. If I remember correctly the last time you named baddies you named Epi, speed and someone else along with me. Even if you just pick one person tell me again who is bad but most importantly why. Remember, I have not played this whole game and I haven't completely read everyone so as bea would say, pretend I'm 5 and explain it to me. If you are not bad I need to believe in others who are.

#1325

juliets wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:35 am
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:03 am
juliets wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:53 am
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:06 am Here's the other problem.

If LC is town, and I'm town and INH is town, only one of Juliets and Speedchuck can possibly be town. So why are two of you trying to save him? He'd be the obvious sacrifice for the easy win. Why turn back?

Maybe Juliets and/or Speedchuck is town and having legit doubts on LC. But the three of you? You can't all be town.
I am having serious doubts about LC and speed seems to be having serious doubts as well. So where does that leave me? With a bad INH? I don't really like that either, his Frodo claim sounded legit, though I don't know INH's game very well. (All I remember is that in one game he said he invented an algorithm or something to tell positively if people were bad which was hilarious.).

Well, tomorrow is another day.
If INH was bad, he'd have been counterclaimed.

For instance, say I was the real Frodo. I'd know that an INH lynch is a guaranteed scum lynch. I'd be all over that. Additionally, the longer INH's claim goes uncontested, the more likely people are to believe him over me when it comes down to it so I should counterclaim immediately.

But nobody counterclaimed. Cause INH is town.

I'm more okay with an LC lynch by the minute.
Ah right someone would have counterclaimed because we know all the flips not just the lynches so I can count on INH to be Frodo. That's at least one person I can count on in this game.

Long Con, tell me again who is bad and why and it better not be me because just like in GOC I am good. If I remember correctly the last time you named baddies you named Epi, speed and someone else along with me. Even if you just pick one person tell me again who is bad but most importantly why. Remember, I have not played this whole game and I haven't completely read everyone so as bea would say, pretend I'm 5 and explain it to me. If you are not bad I need to believe in others who are.

You could just believe no one is bad. I don't think that's advisable.

INH is Civ because he is Frodo.

Jack is Civ because I believe he's good. My post about that makes it clear why. Do you agree?

I am Civ.

If you are Civ, then the baddies are Epignosis, Elohcin, and speedchuck. I don't need to convince you they're bad, they're all that's left. The only thing I need to be convinced of is that you aren't bad, and this game belongs to the Civs.

#1326

LC let me look up Jack's plea and see if I agree with your argument there.

#1327

LC, how can you speak with such certainty?

#1328

Ok LC I do see what you mean on the Jack issue. But on speed, what about Jack's point re:what is in it for a bad speed to back off of you? Surely if he's bad it's in his best interest to just go ahead with your lynch.

#1329

Elohcin wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:02 pm LC, how can you speak with such certainty?

Because I rolechecked you.

#1330

juliets wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:04 pm Ok LC I do see what you mean on the Jack issue. But on speed, what about Jack's point re:what is in it for a bad speed to back off of you? Surely if he's bad it's in his best interest to just go ahead with your lynch.

I get that, but LITERALLY at least one of you or speed are guaranteed to be bad. So those kinds of arguments are moot. Baddies do things to look Civvie. One of the Long Con back-offers is doing that. Case closed.

#1331

Long Con wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:13 pm
juliets wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:04 pm Ok LC I do see what you mean on the Jack issue. But on speed, what about Jack's point re:what is in it for a bad speed to back off of you? Surely if he's bad it's in his best interest to just go ahead with your lynch.
I get that, but LITERALLY at least one of you or speed are guaranteed to be bad. So those kinds of arguments are moot. Baddies do things to look Civvie. One of the Long Con back-offers is doing that. Case closed.

There is no need to be so hostile, I'm just asking for help to work through this. I want to believe you.

#1332

I don't think I was being hostile. Just blunt.

#1333

Long Con wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:12 pm
Elohcin wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:02 pm LC, how can you speak with such certainty?
Because I rolechecked you.

You're so silly.

This is serious.

#1334

Elohcin wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:22 pm
Long Con wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:12 pm
Elohcin wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:02 pm LC, how can you speak with such certainty?
Because I rolechecked you.
You're so silly.

This is serious.

Both statements are correct. Just being silly about the rolecheck of course.

I think I made it very clear why I speak with such certainty in this post.

#1335

Long Con wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:13 pm
juliets wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:04 pm Ok LC I do see what you mean on the Jack issue. But on speed, what about Jack's point re:what is in it for a bad speed to back off of you? Surely if he's bad it's in his best interest to just go ahead with your lynch.
I get that, but LITERALLY at least one of you or speed are guaranteed to be bad. So those kinds of arguments are moot. Baddies do things to look Civvie. One of the Long Con back-offers is doing that. Case closed.

No. If you're good, Speed or Juliets remains "unconvinced" by your pleas because
A) You have townies ready to lynch you right now
B) INH, Jack and Juliets/Speed will not likely be lynched over Eloh, Epi or Juliets/Speed if we correctly determine you are town
C) It wasn't that convincing anyway. Basically pretty please I don't want to die. Scum genuinely don't want to die either.

You are bad.

#1336

Bitching with my computer was not how I expected to spend my Saturday.

I wanted to read through everybody twice but that isn't happening.

#1337

Okay Jack, keep saying I'm bad, it's never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever going to make it true. I'm going to work right now, so I will be at very least sticking my nose into vote before the deadline, but my posting will be minimal for the next few hours. Good luck.

#1338

Long Con wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:31 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:22 pm LC has responded to each of the four votes that were cast against them. To rabbit and myself, he responded by throwing suspicion back in our faces. But to Epi and nutella he said thisL
Long Con wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:09 pm Thanks for the response, nutella, and to Epi for the look back at previous somewhat similar stuff. I don't suspect you for it any more. I just need to pay more attention.
And has not moved his vote off nutella.

LC, what's up? Have you paid more attention yet? why are you still voting for nutella? what's your read on rabbit?
Not too impressed with rabbit's play so far. Putting down phony pressure votes just to not look like a "no vote weirdo" is something I have done in the past, and I got called out for it, and I was bad. We might be seeing that here with rabbit8, and it's an easy play to fall back on when you're a little rusty.

I no longer consider myself as voting for nutella, I just haven't decided another place to put it yet. Short list, I have Jack and rabbit. Jackrabbit. I'll go rabbit.

Long Con, what made you go rabbit instead of Jack?

#1339

Long Con said he's going to work, so I may not get a response there.

I want to put this out there right now: If LC is bad, nobody is getting any credit for lynching him. Including Jack. Especially Jack.

Jack is hellbent on seeing Long Con lynched. First off, I don't know how he can be so confident in this setup and at this juncture. He can be only one of two things: A recklessly confident civilian, or someone who is certain Long Con will be revealed to be Mordor.

Consider the dynamic:

Jack is going HAM on Long Con, but Long Con isn't even pushing back. Indeed, LC said this:

Long Con wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:55 pm Okay, one thing I was just thinking about and I need to get into this thread immediately before I forget or whatever... When Jack made his plea that epignosis just denied, and I posted the Lord of the Rings YouTube clip, I thought that was a very real sounding plea from Jack. I believe it.

If Jack were bad, then he doesn't need to make that kind of post, he just needs to stay the course and Lynch long con. Baddie Jack doesn't need epignosis to just trust that he is Civ. I really don't think that scum Jack needs to make that post at that time.

Typical distancing in this scenario involves both teammates going HAM against each other, but I believe Jack and LC are both smart enough to know that and recognize that. Rather than go that route, LC takes his licks and calls Jack good.

Something else about this post is the urgency LC seems to feel: "I need to get into this thread immediately before I forget or whatever..."

First, I don't know how you would forget your own opinion, and second, I don't understand the urgency when Jack has probably taken the least amount of suspicion this entire time (someone feel free to disagree with me if you feel that isn't the case).

So it looks phony to me.

The post LC was referencing was this one:

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:19 pm
I could answer your concerns about me but I don't see a universe where I get lynch today and I'd rather not spend a lolo day defending myself instead of finding baddies. That said, I think you're town and I don't want your suspicions of me to cause you to vote for the wrong player.

Can you assume I'm town just for today?

If Jack is bad, then he is trying to gain my trust enough to get me to lynch Long Con. If I go along with him and Long Con isn't bad, then it's game over, the mafia notched a clean sweep, and I will feel like a dummy.

If they are both bad, then Jack knows what the outcome of the LC lynch would be, and it makes it incredibly difficult to lynch Jack Day 7, who would "survive the Night" as a "civilian" because there's an outed civilian mafia need to deal with.

All of this said, I am not calling Jack bad if LC is bad. I want the civilians to be aware of the connections I've pointed out if Long Con is bad and we have to do this all over again. That's all.

The rule is this: No credit for anybody if this lynch is successful. None.

#1340

Epi like "Here are all the reasons why Jack and LC are bad together. Conclusion: Jack may or may not be bad and nobody gets credit for this lynch."

This is dumb. Cause if me, Epi, LC and INH are town, neither Speed nor Juliets is town and they're both giving up the easy win with a LC mislynch because....they suddenly don't want to win?

Gimmie a break.

#1341

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:03 pm Epi like "Here are all the reasons why Jack and LC are bad together. Conclusion: Jack may or may not be bad and nobody gets credit for this lynch."

This is dumb. Cause if me, Epi, LC and INH are town, neither Speed nor Juliets is town and they're both giving up the easy win with a LC mislynch because....they suddenly don't want to win?

Gimmie a break.

It isn't dumb. You asked me to trust you today of all Days. If LC gets lynched and is bad, am I supposed to say, "Hot damn, Jack nabbed LC. This is in the Baggins!"

No.

It would be unwise.

#1342

I'd like to know what INH is thinking. Where are you INH, you're so quiet.

#1343

juliets wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:14 pm I'd like to know what INH is thinking. Where are you INH, you're so quiet.

He misses a vote, gives a pep talk, and misses a vote, and gives a pep talk.

He's the only cleared person. Drives me insane.

#1344

Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:26 pm
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:03 pm Epi like "Here are all the reasons why Jack and LC are bad together. Conclusion: Jack may or may not be bad and nobody gets credit for this lynch."

This is dumb. Cause if me, Epi, LC and INH are town, neither Speed nor Juliets is town and they're both giving up the easy win with a LC mislynch because....they suddenly don't want to win?

Gimmie a break.
It isn't dumb. You asked me to trust you today of all Days. If LC gets lynched and is bad, am I supposed to say, "Hot damn, Jack nabbed LC. This is in the Baggins!"

No.

It would be unwise.

You're arguing against a position no one has taken. I don't care about civ cred. I'm a civ and I'm not getting mislynched.

What are your thoughts for how to proceed tomorrow if we get the obvious lynch result and nightkill?

#1345

Jack, I don't suspect you outside of your interactions with Long Con, whom you want dead. I have to consider all angles. I am not arguing against a position no one has taken. I'm raising a concern I have.

How are you so sure of yourself?

#1346

Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:32 pm Jack, I don't suspect you outside of your interactions with Long Con, whom you want dead. I have to consider all angles. I am not arguing against a position no one has taken. I'm raising a concern I have.

How are you so sure of yourself?

Cause mathematically, Speed, Juliets and LC cannot all be town.

If Speed and Juliets are both town then LC is the correct choice because he has to be bad.

If one or both of Speed and Juliets are not town, LC could be town but they would not both back off him because that's trading an easy mislynch and win for freaking nothing.

Ergo, there is no universe where LC is good.

Why are you not drawing the same conclusion. Don't you know you are good? This math should hold from your perspective.

#1347

Only a few hours to go. Let's do this.

#1348

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:49 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:32 pm Jack, I don't suspect you outside of your interactions with Long Con, whom you want dead. I have to consider all angles. I am not arguing against a position no one has taken. I'm raising a concern I have.

How are you so sure of yourself?
Cause mathematically, Speed, Juliets and LC cannot all be town.

If Speed and Juliets are both town then LC is the correct choice because he has to be bad.

If one or both of Speed and Juliets are not town, LC could be town but they would not both back off him because that's trading an easy mislynch and win for freaking nothing.

Ergo, there is no universe where LC is good.

Why are you not drawing the same conclusion. Don't you know you are good? This math should hold from your perspective.

You gave me a lot of "ifs."

So that doesn't mean ther's no universe where LC is good.

I want to hear what other people have to say, but nobody else is talking.

I'm watching a TV program and I'll be back.

#1349

What does everyone think of Elo? Is she bad in your book (whoever the "you" is who answers this)?

#1350

Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:08 pm
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:49 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:32 pm Jack, I don't suspect you outside of your interactions with Long Con, whom you want dead. I have to consider all angles. I am not arguing against a position no one has taken. I'm raising a concern I have.

How are you so sure of yourself?
Cause mathematically, Speed, Juliets and LC cannot all be town.

If Speed and Juliets are both town then LC is the correct choice because he has to be bad.

If one or both of Speed and Juliets are not town, LC could be town but they would not both back off him because that's trading an easy mislynch and win for freaking nothing.

Ergo, there is no universe where LC is good.

Why are you not drawing the same conclusion. Don't you know you are good? This math should hold from your perspective.
You gave me a lot of "ifs."

So that doesn't mean ther's no universe where LC is good.

I want to hear what other people have to say, but nobody else is talking.

I'm watching a TV program and I'll be back.

I gave you all possible ifs.

So... what did you think?