DFS Mafia [ENDGAME]

[JaggedJimmyJay]

That post that said that post of mine was a scumslip was the biggest load of shit and Jay just ate from that load. Jay is either bad or has a scum read on me for poor reasons and desperately wants me to be bad to restore his lost pride when I and my fellow scum streeted him a few games ago.

What was it again?

It was a scumslip because I said that for me to know he is town means I must be Mafia ignored the fact that me as Mafia and he as Mafia would mean I also know he is not town?

I am sorry but either I don't get it AND it's stupid or I do get it and it's the biggest load of shit on God's green Earth. Infected Alien more like Infected Brain.

1. No, you don’t get it.

2. You don’t know my stance on the matter, and you hate it.

[Tangrowth]

I will admit I’m a bit wary that Jay has been asking too many softball questions like “why” and that one he lobbed at colin earlier that I took a legit beef with

That’s why I lowered him on my rainbow list even if I still think he’s very likely town

[MacDougall]

Maybe just enlighten me then Lord Jimmy Jay of the Bullshit Manor.

[Tangrowth]

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show

Just the ease you have with slapping down people as Town, it's very different to how you were in the champs. In champs you'd enter the thread with questions for basically everyone. Any town-reads you had always felt sort of thin, like you respected their ability to fake it, so you leaned Town but always wanted everyone to constantly be wary. This game you're just sort of throwing out town-reads and it feels like you're buddying with people, like when you said to someone 'we can solve this game together in both our town mindsets' or something along those lines.

I know this is a different forum and you know people well here, and that could be the explanation, it's just not something I feel right now, it just feels off to my gut, especially since colin also agreed and he's played before. I asked people who've played with you before if you are like this usually with people you know, though, and if it turns out you are then fair enough, but right now I'm suspicious of you

/butts in

maybe this is a difference in perspectives. one of the reasons that i started townreading MP7 in champs was because the way that he was acting in the thread made sense for a townie to act; he was clearly at a disadvantage meta-wise, regardless of alignment, but what i saw him doing there was peppering people with questions that allowed him to gain back some footing. he was leveling questions that allowed him to gain some of that meta secondhand.

it's not just that he had questions for people, it was the nature of the questions that mattered there. i don't think he'd have the same incentive to constantly throw out questions for the players here since he has a much greater degree of familiarity and personal meta with everybody here. what sort of questions would you expect him to be asking in this arena--the same type of questions?

also, i will say that i think that the ease with which he's been putting people down as town is actually similar to the way he did it with me in WC. that was a special case, but potentially still relevant

Hey aby, what do you make of Alien? And thanks for the perspective here. I do agree the environment is different and that inevitably will affect my approach to the game

so far, i've gotten a much greater sense of alien trying to hunt this game when compared to wildcards

he's hedging a lot less, he's coming out with his suspicions and sticking to his guns somewhat, and i think he's making an attempt to make his thoughts known without worrying overmuch about making those thoughts as palatable as possible

there's a possibility that he's attempting to adjust his play because it was discussed postgame (we specifically discussed hedging and overexplaining as signs postgame iirc), so this is a very conditional take.

This post sounds like an example of the tells you're talking about

Yo Turnip Head give me moreee

Got anything else? What do you think of me or Jay?

This is me firing on all cylinders

That’s a lie and you know it

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Maybe just enlighten me then Lord Jimmy Jay of the Bullshit Manor.

Maybe when I get home. For now you just keep copying my reads.

[Tangrowth]

Alright done shopping then I have to head back to the hotel and actually do more work gone now byeeeee

[MacDougall]

So I am to believe that:

1. My rolecard is incorrect
2. Some guy claims I made a slip from a post that is not a slip (that this other chucklemonkey up here says is "very much not a slip" mind you so thanks breh)
3. I despite being a member of a nation that speaks English as my first language have failed to comphrehend it but
4. Lord Jay's legendary abilities mean that he does and
5. I hate it

No the only thing I hate is the fact that you have a scum read on me.

[MacDougall]

Maybe just enlighten me then Lord Jimmy Jay of the Bullshit Manor.

Maybe when I get home. For now you just keep copying my reads.

Jay McTunnel with his tunnel vision goggles on. Jay, they teach anti-tunneling in Mafia kindergarten breh.

Jay sees Mac have similar reads to him, Mac must be bad. Jay logic.

[MacDougall]

The only way I could copy your reads is to have a self scum read.

[MacDougall]

I am going to do the rest of the game a service and I am going to post limit myself because I feel like there is a high chance that the actual scum are just sitting there playing with their scum genitals at the notion that Jay and I just overwhelm the thread with hate posting each other.

[abyssum]

/popcorn

[MacDougall]

I do have one comment.

The suggestion that I am to have "scum-slipped" while not understanding the how of it rings false to me. I cannot think of a scenario in which I have ever made a clumsy post as scum and not known immediately afterwards in every way that it could be construed as scum, so to claim I don't understand my own scum slip is a fairly adventurous call. I am meticulous with my posting as scum and will draft and redress all my posts constantly so for me even scum slip would be rare let alone scum slip and not know how.

I would have thought that Jay wouldn't entertain the notion that Mafia Mac is that clumsy, hence why I think it reflects worse on him.

[MacDougall]

That post that said that post of mine was a scumslip was the biggest load of shit and Jay just ate from that load. Jay is either bad or has a scum read on me for poor reasons and desperately wants me to be bad to restore his lost pride when I and my fellow scum streeted him a few games ago.

What was it again?

It was a scumslip because I said that for me to know he is town means I must be Mafia ignored the fact that me as Mafia and he as Mafia would mean I also know he is not town?

I am sorry but either I don't get it AND it's stupid or I do get it and it's the biggest load of shit on God's green Earth. Infected Alien more like Infected Brain.

it's very much not a slip.

why is it a worse look for Jay than it is for Alien in your head, though?

Sorry gonna make one more comment before I ske-daddle.

As I just explained my meta understanding of Jay and Jay's meta understanding of me lends me to hold his gameplay in high regard. I have no idea who Alien is so I can't fault him.

Did you mention it wasn't a slip before this? Or did you wait til I came online to issue this perspective?

[MacDougall]

Okay one more post.

This might make me look bad but fuck it, it's important to be honest. Jay was right. My gut reads were less than inspired in this game compared to the normal. I just got mislynched on day 1 in the Firefly game for not seeming like myself because everyone has such a fixed meta understanding of what "town Mac" looks like that I felt obligated to do it.

[abyssum]

That post that said that post of mine was a scumslip was the biggest load of shit and Jay just ate from that load. Jay is either bad or has a scum read on me for poor reasons and desperately wants me to be bad to restore his lost pride when I and my fellow scum streeted him a few games ago.

What was it again?

It was a scumslip because I said that for me to know he is town means I must be Mafia ignored the fact that me as Mafia and he as Mafia would mean I also know he is not town?

I am sorry but either I don't get it AND it's stupid or I do get it and it's the biggest load of shit on God's green Earth. Infected Alien more like Infected Brain.

it's very much not a slip.

why is it a worse look for Jay than it is for Alien in your head, though?

Sorry gonna make one more comment before I ske-daddle.

As I just explained my meta understanding of Jay and Jay's meta understanding of me lends me to hold his gameplay in high regard. I have no idea who Alien is so I can't fault him.

Did you mention it wasn't a slip before this? Or did you wait til I came online to issue this perspective?

i made a post earlier about thinking alien was town but disagreeing about the slip

i don't seek your approval that hard yet

[Infected_alien8_]

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show

Alright, thanks. That perspective does make sense to me, but I can also see worlds where he does this as Mafia, either because he's aware he might need to come off as more confident, or because he's confident enough to pocket people, so I don't want to give too much credit to that theory personally

Also, although I get your perspective of 'confidence in reads could be coming from confidence after winning those games', personally that isn't my impression, it feels more like he's just town-reading people because he's trying to post content but struggling to genuinely find things suspicious/worthy of questioning as Mafia or wanting to pocket them, the 'confidence from champs' thing isn't something I sense personally either

UGH, STOP. Lol. That is not true. Where are you getting this impression? How can clarify anything I've said so far?

Just the ease you have with slapping down people as Town, it's very different to how you were in the champs. In champs you'd enter the thread with questions for basically everyone. Any town-reads you had always felt sort of thin, like you respected their ability to fake it, so you leaned Town but always wanted everyone to constantly be wary. This game you're just sort of throwing out town-reads and it feels like you're buddying with people, like when you said to someone 'we can solve this game together in both our town mindsets' or something along those lines.

I know this is a different forum and you know people well here, and that could be the explanation, it's just not something I feel right now, it just feels off to my gut, especially since colin also agreed and he's played before. I asked people who've played with you before if you are like this usually with people you know, though, and if it turns out you are then fair enough, but right now I'm suspicious of you

/butts in

maybe this is a difference in perspectives. one of the reasons that i started townreading MP7 in champs was because the way that he was acting in the thread made sense for a townie to act; he was clearly at a disadvantage meta-wise, regardless of alignment, but what i saw him doing there was peppering people with questions that allowed him to gain back some footing. he was leveling questions that allowed him to gain some of that meta secondhand.

it's not just that he had questions for people, it was the nature of the questions that mattered there. i don't think he'd have the same incentive to constantly throw out questions for the players here since he has a much greater degree of familiarity and personal meta with everybody here. what sort of questions would you expect him to be asking in this arena--the same type of questions?

also, i will say that i think that the ease with which he's been putting people down as town is actually similar to the way he did it with me in WC. that was a special case, but potentially still relevant

Well, questions-wise I'd expect him to ask a lot about people's exact thoughts when they post suspicion lists, or just ask people for their thought process, which he did a lot in the other games, but everyone's been pretty clear about their thought process so far, I myself haven't really had many questions at all, so that's not why I find him suspicious, it was just the one case where he didn't ask about that person's read about potential teammates with M Plus 7 I found suspicious because I'd have expected him to have inquired about what was going on in their head there. He's explained that, and his explanation is fair enough.

My main beef is just the ease of his town-reads. He did town-read you pretty easily but I agree that was quite a special case, most of the time, when he was giving opinions that weren't doubts or suspicious, I thought he was putting out more 'this reads genuine' statements and such rather than 'this person is locktown', and he seemed to be more trying to pick people's brains more. It could just be the environment being different and not feeling the need to do that, or him just feeling more confident here or anything like that, I just don't think I *feel* like that's what it is in my gut, it feels more like it's significant and he's trying to buddy with people or struggling to find suspicions or something, and I don't have a logical argument as to why I swing that way over the other explanations, other than just that's what my gut is saying. That feeling might be completely wrong but that's how I feel about him right now.

M Plus 7 you said if you were Mafia you'd easily be able to make suspicions up, what do you think you'd say you found suspicious?

[/spoiler]

*rips hair out*

ALIEN WHYYY LOL

Alright it’s fine.

Maybe the best way for us to proceed here is the way we did in Game 9. If you aren’t sure how I’m arriving at something just poke and prod me with very specific lines of interrogation as you so excellently do until you understand where I’m coming from. I’ll do everything I can to assist.

I’m not sure how exactly these perceptions are arising but I’m determined to help you find me this game assuming you’re town. I’m tired of talking past each other already. Lol.

As for your specific question, YES, that’s a good one and exactly what I’m talking about.

There are various things I could pursue in an LHF fashion for sure. DH, TH, and even Mac are fucking around and I could have drilled any one of them against the wall tone if I really wanted to. I probably could have been harder on aby and Tsaiah as well for not quite getting there on more players yet but that’d be unfair and I wouldn’t believe it makes them scum. (FTR I think they’re both doing amazingly.)

And I could have easily capitalized on Colin by now.

There are flaws in everyone’s game so far. When I’m scum I pick them out and drill people for it. That’s not what I’m doing.

What do you mean by 'drilled any one of them against the wall tone'?

What about colin would you capitalize on?

[mention]MacDougall[/mention] Your 'slip' was because you essentially said "the only way for me to know you're Town is if I'm Mafia', because an underlying assumption of that statement is that they're Town, because if you were Mafia you'd know it, as opposed to knowing they were also Mafia, which is a possibility to you if you're Town. We may just have different ways of thinking but if I'm Town and someone says 'you know I'm Town', my natural reaction isn't 'well if I was Mafia I'd know it, but I'm not Mafia so I don't', because that assumes you are in fact Town. I might think 'well, *if you are in fact Town* then the only way for me to know that is if I'm Mafia', and it was the 'if you are Town' bit that you left out, which could be because you're not thinking about it that way, you're assuming they're Town, because you know they are, because you're Mafia. It's very nitpicky but it's possible it reflects your thought process perfectly and you didn't have any doubt about them being Town.

I don't necessarily think it is actually a slip from scum, my gut says it wasn't at least; maybe just you didn't feel the need to add that part of 'if you're town', even though you did think it, or maybe it was an accidental assumption during that specific part of the thread, like you came at it from an angle of 'you're making this accusation that I'm Mafia and I'm showing you why I've identified this by speaking about it from your point of view', but it *could* be a slip, which is why I pointed it out. Hope that makes sense?

[Infected_alien8_]

or maybe it was an accidental assumption during that specific part of the thread, like you came at it from an angle of 'you're making this accusation that I'm Mafia and I'm showing you why I've identified this by speaking about it from your point of view', but it *could* be a slip, which is why I pointed it out. Hope that makes sense?

about your point of view as a townie*

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I do have one comment.

The suggestion that I am to have "scum-slipped" while not understanding the how of it rings false to me. I cannot think of a scenario in which I have ever made a clumsy post as scum and not known immediately afterwards in every way that it could be construed as scum, so to claim I don't understand my own scum slip is a fairly adventurous call. I am meticulous with my posting as scum and will draft and redress all my posts constantly so for me even scum slip would be rare let alone scum slip and not know how.

I would have thought that Jay wouldn't entertain the notion that Mafia Mac is that clumsy, hence why I think it reflects worse on him.

Alien has restated his perceived slip, so you can continue to contend with that notion in that dialogue.

I don't think you slipped. I never claimed otherwise. I am perturbed that you are bringing this poop here now, as it suggests to me that you are reading the thread closely enough to be aware of a general negative atmosphere forming around you, but not closely enough to see the details.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

If I had to place my final Day 1 lynch vote right now, it'd be for DharmaHelper and I wouldn't need to think about it much. I will explain shortly.

[DharmaHelper]

If I had to place my final Day 1 lynch vote right now, it'd be for DharmaHelper and I wouldn't need to think about it much. I will explain shortly.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

More than 24 hours remain in Day 0, and I am doing an ISO on DharmaHelper

Spoiler: show

The good news is I'm here.

Oh great, it's this guy.

Mr. I'm Retired From Mafia.

Let's lynch your ass D1.

Do it.

This post serves little purpose other than to serve as a challenge -- the sort that is more semantically sensible when DH is talking to someone he is not knowingly teamed with.

Spoiler: show

MP is either on something or ..

wait no thats it he's on something.

I already spoke about this post. Not a fan.

Spoiler: show

I have to confess I haven't read a word of the game yet 100% because its two pages of game and 4 pages of MP

I don't believe you.

There are about four people making love to themselves in this thread, and I am being asked to believe that DharmaHelper has not noticed any of that. Nope.

I'm not asking you to believe anything. I'll read this Day 0 when I get to it.

DharmaHelper is well-known for his hubris. It's a fun component of his persona around here, and it tends to show up in his Mafia play to some degree. In this case I have hurled crud at him from the start, and he has barely begun to acknowledge it. There's nothing snide or prideful here, there is only an uneasy pledge to "read when he gets to it". It doesn't look like I'd expect an authentic DH response to Day 0 bullshit to look.

Spoiler: show

Number of defenses and promises: 1 each

Number of snide remarks and jokes: 0

Number of gifs: 0

Number of DharmaHelpers on the mafia team: 1

Yeah well thats like....your opinion man.

Same problem. I appreciate the Big Lebowski reference, but this is still not the character I expected to be faced with when I made that post.

Spoiler: show

@Spacedaisy come get your man he's having a nervous breakdown he's rambled about something called a rainbow list for at least 3 hours and theres no such thing anywhere in sight.

This has now become a trend. This is a negative statement about MP which feeds the climate initially generated by Infected_alien8 against him -- but it's masked under the veil of humor. To imply that MP has been promising a rainbow list and failing to deliver is an accusation, and it carries certain weight. That weight is discarded within the humor presented here by the man who made the comment in the first place. Yuck.

Spoiler: show

MP7 Day 0 Rainbow List -- POE Style

Tsaiah

Infected_alien8
JaggedJimmyJay

abyssum
ColinIsCool
Kylemii
MacDougall
sprityo

DharmaHelper
Lunalee
Marmot
RobotNerd277
Russtifinko
Turnip Head

Alphabetical within groups. There's a lot of GTH here. Feel free to ask me about these.

I need to go, lol. Be back later. Best of luck in your hunting, everyone!

Arbitrary Shiny "I'm A Civ" object to prove civhood.

MP then posts the rainbow, and DH gives him shit based upon the inherent invalidity of rainbow lists (see here). MP can't win.

Spoiler: show

Me: Alrighty fuck it time to buckle in and catch up

MP: I think I'm gonna post eight times in a row now.

Me: Oh ok I'll go watch a movie then.

DH has pledged to get involved at some undefined point, and frankly he has. He has 21 posts, but you wouldn't know it given the content therein. Instead of truly digging into this game in a meaningful way, he makes an excuse and blames MP's posting rate.

Spoiler: show

DH give me a read, anything bro

Just ISO someone and get back to me

I'm 100% not going to do that.

Aghhh alright talk to me about anything

You’ve seen enough posts from me or Jay right? What do you think of either of us?

How much have you read? Doesn’t matter just give me a hot take, anything, I don’t care if it’s the weakest shit

I haven't read anything. I've barely read the stuff that has my name in it. Its impossible. I can't even get this post out.

This is an appeal to emotion effort given that some people in this community genuinely do hate highly active games -- I don't buy it.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Okay one more post.

This might make me look bad but fuck it, it's important to be honest. Jay was right. My gut reads were less than inspired in this game compared to the normal. I just got mislynched on day 1 in the Firefly game for not seeming like myself because everyone has such a fixed meta understanding of what "town Mac" looks like that I felt obligated to do it.

Do you have new gut reads of a more authentic variety now, 500 posts later?

[DharmaHelper]

I don't see your point Jay.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I will admit I’m a bit wary that Jay has been asking too many softball questions like “why” and that one he lobbed at colin earlier that I took a legit beef with

That’s why I lowered him on my rainbow list even if I still think he’s very likely town

The day "why" becomes a softball question by the standards of Day 0 is the day hunting becomes impossible. I mean, I could add profanity and make it sound meaner, but it has no semantic value.

I've also arguably been more hardball than anyone in this thread so far except alien.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don't see your point Jay.

Then I guess you're not the target audience anymore.

[DharmaHelper]

What does "unknowingly teamed with" mean.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

What does "unknowingly teamed with" mean.

Within the context I was using, my meaning was that you have known teammates and MP isn't among them.

[DharmaHelper]

What does "unknowingly teamed with" mean.

Within the context I was using, my meaning was that you have known teammates and MP isn't among them.

....


Thats not what you ...


said....

tho..

[JaggedJimmyJay]

What does "unknowingly teamed with" mean.

Within the context I was using, my meaning was that you have known teammates and MP isn't among them.

....


Thats not what you ...


said....

tho..

"This post serves little purpose other than to serve as a challenge -- the sort that is more semantically sensible when DH is talking to someone he is not knowingly teamed with."

M Plus 7

Not among the people you know to be on your team

More importantly, you're poking at the first and least interesting point I made in that review. I once made a picture to depict this phenomenon when mafioso Mac did the same thing in Romance of the Three Kingdoms:



You've focused your immediate response upon the dumb scroll, and left the important scrolls alone.

[MacDougall]

Okay one more post.

This might make me look bad but fuck it, it's important to be honest. Jay was right. My gut reads were less than inspired in this game compared to the normal. I just got mislynched on day 1 in the Firefly game for not seeming like myself because everyone has such a fixed meta understanding of what "town Mac" looks like that I felt obligated to do it.

Do you have new gut reads of a more authentic variety now, 500 posts later?

I think you will find that I have been trying to solve the game and making reads despite the unwarranted scrutiny actually.

[DharmaHelper]

They're all dumb scrolls though is my thing.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

They're all dumb scrolls though is my thing.

Nah

[JaggedJimmyJay]

unwarranted scrutiny

No such thing.

[DharmaHelper]

They're all dumb scrolls though is my thing.

Nah

But you called it Bullshit yourself. Are you a liar? Mafia lie. Are you saying you're mafia? Who are you unknowingly teamed with?

[Infected_alien8_]

@JaggedJimmyJay why did you say that Mac wouldn't like your stance on his slip if you didn't actually think it was a slip?

Also for anyone who's played with Mac, is his response to the slip thing telling at all? Would he have such a strong reaction as a Townie do you think?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

@JaggedJimmyJay why did you say that Mac wouldn't like your stance on his slip if you didn't actually think it was a slip?

Also for anyone who's played with Mac, is his response to the slip thing telling at all? Would he have such a strong reaction as a Townie do you think?

I said he didn't know what my stance is, not that he wouldn't like it. I did say "and you hate it", meaning he hates not knowing, because I'm an asshole.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

They're all dumb scrolls though is my thing.

Nah

But you called it Bullshit yourself. Are you a liar? Mafia lie. Are you saying you're mafia? Who are you unknowingly teamed with?

Well this post is your worst yet. Scramble as you might to turn this on me, you're digging yourself deeper mate.

[MacDougall]

I do have one comment.

The suggestion that I am to have "scum-slipped" while not understanding the how of it rings false to me. I cannot think of a scenario in which I have ever made a clumsy post as scum and not known immediately afterwards in every way that it could be construed as scum, so to claim I don't understand my own scum slip is a fairly adventurous call. I am meticulous with my posting as scum and will draft and redress all my posts constantly so for me even scum slip would be rare let alone scum slip and not know how.

I would have thought that Jay wouldn't entertain the notion that Mafia Mac is that clumsy, hence why I think it reflects worse on him.

Alien has restated his perceived slip, so you can continue to contend with that notion in that dialogue.

I don't think you slipped. I never claimed otherwise. I am perturbed that you are bringing this poop here now, as it suggests to me that you are reading the thread closely enough to be aware of a general negative atmosphere forming around you, but not closely enough to see the details.

Jay, your response to him was literally "I see your point. Interesting." Sure I could read that and not take that as agreement but it reads like agreement especially considering your other posts on the subject of me. Something is clouding your judgement of me. Are you just intentionally taking a fixed position on me to wind me up and see what falls out or something? I am used to you being aggressive but I cannot recall you just coming out of the blocks at me with such flawed logic before.

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show

Also, although I get your perspective of 'confidence in reads could be coming from confidence after winning those games', personally that isn't my impression, it feels more like he's just town-reading people because he's trying to post content but struggling to genuinely find things suspicious/worthy of questioning as Mafia or wanting to pocket them, the 'confidence from champs' thing isn't something I sense personally either

UGH, STOP. Lol. That is not true. Where are you getting this impression? How can clarify anything I've said so far?

Just the ease you have with slapping down people as Town, it's very different to how you were in the champs. In champs you'd enter the thread with questions for basically everyone. Any town-reads you had always felt sort of thin, like you respected their ability to fake it, so you leaned Town but always wanted everyone to constantly be wary. This game you're just sort of throwing out town-reads and it feels like you're buddying with people, like when you said to someone 'we can solve this game together in both our town mindsets' or something along those lines.

I know this is a different forum and you know people well here, and that could be the explanation, it's just not something I feel right now, it just feels off to my gut, especially since colin also agreed and he's played before. I asked people who've played with you before if you are like this usually with people you know, though, and if it turns out you are then fair enough, but right now I'm suspicious of you

/butts in

maybe this is a difference in perspectives. one of the reasons that i started townreading MP7 in champs was because the way that he was acting in the thread made sense for a townie to act; he was clearly at a disadvantage meta-wise, regardless of alignment, but what i saw him doing there was peppering people with questions that allowed him to gain back some footing. he was leveling questions that allowed him to gain some of that meta secondhand.

it's not just that he had questions for people, it was the nature of the questions that mattered there. i don't think he'd have the same incentive to constantly throw out questions for the players here since he has a much greater degree of familiarity and personal meta with everybody here. what sort of questions would you expect him to be asking in this arena--the same type of questions?

also, i will say that i think that the ease with which he's been putting people down as town is actually similar to the way he did it with me in WC. that was a special case, but potentially still relevant

Well, questions-wise I'd expect him to ask a lot about people's exact thoughts when they post suspicion lists, or just ask people for their thought process, which he did a lot in the other games, but everyone's been pretty clear about their thought process so far, I myself haven't really had many questions at all, so that's not why I find him suspicious, it was just the one case where he didn't ask about that person's read about potential teammates with M Plus 7 I found suspicious because I'd have expected him to have inquired about what was going on in their head there. He's explained that, and his explanation is fair enough.

My main beef is just the ease of his town-reads. He did town-read you pretty easily but I agree that was quite a special case, most of the time, when he was giving opinions that weren't doubts or suspicious, I thought he was putting out more 'this reads genuine' statements and such rather than 'this person is locktown', and he seemed to be more trying to pick people's brains more. It could just be the environment being different and not feeling the need to do that, or him just feeling more confident here or anything like that, I just don't think I *feel* like that's what it is in my gut, it feels more like it's significant and he's trying to buddy with people or struggling to find suspicions or something, and I don't have a logical argument as to why I swing that way over the other explanations, other than just that's what my gut is saying. That feeling might be completely wrong but that's how I feel about him right now.

M Plus 7 you said if you were Mafia you'd easily be able to make suspicions up, what do you think you'd say you found suspicious?

[/spoiler]

*rips hair out*

ALIEN WHYYY LOL

Alright it’s fine.

Maybe the best way for us to proceed here is the way we did in Game 9. If you aren’t sure how I’m arriving at something just poke and prod me with very specific lines of interrogation as you so excellently do until you understand where I’m coming from. I’ll do everything I can to assist.

I’m not sure how exactly these perceptions are arising but I’m determined to help you find me this game assuming you’re town. I’m tired of talking past each other already. Lol.

As for your specific question, YES, that’s a good one and exactly what I’m talking about.

There are various things I could pursue in an LHF fashion for sure. DH, TH, and even Mac are fucking around and I could have drilled any one of them against the wall tone if I really wanted to. I probably could have been harder on aby and Tsaiah as well for not quite getting there on more players yet but that’d be unfair and I wouldn’t believe it makes them scum. (FTR I think they’re both doing amazingly.)

And I could have easily capitalized on Colin by now.

There are flaws in everyone’s game so far. When I’m scum I pick them out and drill people for it. That’s not what I’m doing.

What do you mean by 'drilled any one of them against the wall tone'?

What about colin would you capitalize on?

@MacDougall Your 'slip' was because you essentially said "the only way for me to know you're Town is if I'm Mafia', because an underlying assumption of that statement is that they're Town, because if you were Mafia you'd know it, as opposed to knowing they were also Mafia, which is a possibility to you if you're Town. We may just have different ways of thinking but if I'm Town and someone says 'you know I'm Town', my natural reaction isn't 'well if I was Mafia I'd know it, but I'm not Mafia so I don't', because that assumes you are in fact Town. I might think 'well, *if you are in fact Town* then the only way for me to know that is if I'm Mafia', and it was the 'if you are Town' bit that you left out, which could be because you're not thinking about it that way, you're assuming they're Town, because you know they are, because you're Mafia. It's very nitpicky but it's possible it reflects your thought process perfectly and you didn't have any doubt about them being Town.

I don't necessarily think it is actually a slip from scum, my gut says it wasn't at least; maybe just you didn't feel the need to add that part of 'if you're town', even though you did think it, or maybe it was an accidental assumption during that specific part of the thread, like you came at it from an angle of 'you're making this accusation that I'm Mafia and I'm showing you why I've identified this by speaking about it from your point of view', but it *could* be a slip, which is why I pointed it out. Hope that makes sense?

I understand.

I am being completely unbias when I say that if I read that post of mine and somebody else had made it and I had have added the "if you're town" like you said it would have come across worse by virtue of it being overly self conscious and track covering. There's nothing about not adding that part that makes it a scumslip, it'd be more of a scumslip if I had have.

Jay said I know he is town.
The only way for me to know he is town is if I am Mafia.
I would add the "if you're town" only to try to come across more town. I would probably have said it the way you said I should have said it if I was scum.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Would he have such a strong reaction as a Townie do you think?

Yes, probably. I think he'd react strongly either way.

[DharmaHelper]

They're all dumb scrolls though is my thing.

Nah

But you called it Bullshit yourself. Are you a liar? Mafia lie. Are you saying you're mafia? Who are you unknowingly teamed with?

Well this post is your worst yet. Scramble as you might to turn this on me, you're digging yourself deeper mate.

Turn how? Scramble how?

[MacDougall]

@JaggedJimmyJay why did you say that Mac wouldn't like your stance on his slip if you didn't actually think it was a slip?

Also for anyone who's played with Mac, is his response to the slip thing telling at all? Would he have such a strong reaction as a Townie do you think?

I said he didn't know what my stance is, not that he wouldn't like it. I did say "and you hate it", meaning he hates not knowing, because I'm an asshole.

I will reiterate that the only thing I hate is that you have a scum read on me. The logistics of it do not affect my emotions. There are certain players that when their eye turns towards you, your lifespan in the game immediately becomes shorter so forgive me for being immediately in fight or flight mode under duress from you.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Jay, your response to him was literally "I see your point. Interesting."

You see it's times like these when we need to be careful with a word like "literally", because I did not say that at all. I told him I understood his meaning, and that I'd let you have a go at it before saying my piece.

Sure I could read that and not take that as agreement but it reads like agreement especially considering your other posts on the subject of me. Something is clouding your judgement of me. Are you just intentionally taking a fixed position on me to wind me up and see what falls out or something? I am used to you being aggressive but I cannot recall you just coming out of the blocks at me with such flawed logic before.

I am pointing out any little thing I don't like and hammering the point home until I am satisfied (if ever). If you expect anything less than that after Ass Class, then you need to seriously re-orient your assumptions.

[Infected_alien8_]

More than 24 hours remain in Day 0, and I am doing an ISO on DharmaHelper

Spoiler: show

The good news is I'm here.

Oh great, it's this guy.

Mr. I'm Retired From Mafia.

Let's lynch your ass D1.

Do it.

This post serves little purpose other than to serve as a challenge -- the sort that is more semantically sensible when DH is talking to someone he is not knowingly teamed with.

Spoiler: show

MP is either on something or ..

wait no thats it he's on something.

I already spoke about this post. Not a fan.

Spoiler: show

I have to confess I haven't read a word of the game yet 100% because its two pages of game and 4 pages of MP

I don't believe you.

There are about four people making love to themselves in this thread, and I am being asked to believe that DharmaHelper has not noticed any of that. Nope.

I'm not asking you to believe anything. I'll read this Day 0 when I get to it.

DharmaHelper is well-known for his hubris. It's a fun component of his persona around here, and it tends to show up in his Mafia play to some degree. In this case I have hurled crud at him from the start, and he has barely begun to acknowledge it. There's nothing snide or prideful here, there is only an uneasy pledge to "read when he gets to it". It doesn't look like I'd expect an authentic DH response to Day 0 bullshit to look.

Spoiler: show

Number of defenses and promises: 1 each

Number of snide remarks and jokes: 0

Number of gifs: 0

Number of DharmaHelpers on the mafia team: 1

Yeah well thats like....your opinion man.

Same problem. I appreciate the Big Lebowski reference, but this is still not the character I expected to be faced with when I made that post.

Spoiler: show

@Spacedaisy come get your man he's having a nervous breakdown he's rambled about something called a rainbow list for at least 3 hours and theres no such thing anywhere in sight.

This has now become a trend. This is a negative statement about MP which feeds the climate initially generated by Infected_alien8 against him -- but it's masked under the veil of humor. To imply that MP has been promising a rainbow list and failing to deliver is an accusation, and it carries certain weight. That weight is discarded within the humor presented here by the man who made the comment in the first place. Yuck.

Spoiler: show

MP7 Day 0 Rainbow List -- POE Style

Tsaiah

Infected_alien8
JaggedJimmyJay

abyssum
ColinIsCool
Kylemii
MacDougall
sprityo

DharmaHelper
Lunalee
Marmot
RobotNerd277
Russtifinko
Turnip Head

Alphabetical within groups. There's a lot of GTH here. Feel free to ask me about these.

I need to go, lol. Be back later. Best of luck in your hunting, everyone!

Arbitrary Shiny "I'm A Civ" object to prove civhood.

MP then posts the rainbow, and DH gives him shit based upon the inherent invalidity of rainbow lists (see here). MP can't win.

Spoiler: show

Me: Alrighty fuck it time to buckle in and catch up

MP: I think I'm gonna post eight times in a row now.

Me: Oh ok I'll go watch a movie then.

DH has pledged to get involved at some undefined point, and frankly he has. He has 21 posts, but you wouldn't know it given the content therein. Instead of truly digging into this game in a meaningful way, he makes an excuse and blames MP's posting rate.

Spoiler: show

DH give me a read, anything bro

Just ISO someone and get back to me

I'm 100% not going to do that.

Aghhh alright talk to me about anything

You’ve seen enough posts from me or Jay right? What do you think of either of us?

How much have you read? Doesn’t matter just give me a hot take, anything, I don’t care if it’s the weakest shit

I haven't read anything. I've barely read the stuff that has my name in it. Its impossible. I can't even get this post out.

This is an appeal to emotion effort given that some people in this community genuinely do hate highly active games -- I don't buy it.

"This post serves little purpose other than to serve as a challenge -- the sort that is more semantically sensible when DH is talking to someone he is not knowingly teamed with."

Are you basically saying this doesn't look like they're teamed because it's inviting his partner to attack him? Why don't you think it's more likely he'd do that to a partner than to a Town? Sorry, not quite following

"I already spoke about this post. Not a fan."

I understand your perspective on it, although it wasn't my initial interpretation of it, I just saw it as a joke and that's basically it, I don't necessarily think there's some agenda behind it, though I do agree it's compatible with having an agenda behind it as well.

"DharmaHelper is well-known for his hubris. It's a fun component of his persona around here, and it tends to show up in his Mafia play to some degree. In this case I have hurled crud at him from the start, and he has barely begun to acknowledge it. There's nothing snide or prideful here, there is only an uneasy pledge to "read when he gets to it". It doesn't look like I'd expect an authentic DH response to Day 0 bullshit to look."

What sort of level of hubris would you expect, or specifically talking what response would you expect from him?

The implication that he's yet to read the thread seems like it'd do the job at protecting his ego from missing something if that's what you think is lacking?

"Same problem. I appreciate the Big Lebowski reference, but this is still not the character I expected to be faced with when I made that post."

What exactly would you expect from him?

"This has now become a trend. This is a negative statement about MP which feeds the climate initially generated by Infected_alien8 against him -- but it's masked under the veil of humor. To imply that MP has been promising a rainbow list and failing to deliver is an accusation, and it carries certain weight. That weight is discarded within the humor presented here by the man who made the comment in the first place. Yuck."

I think this is the most compelling point in my opinion, it is a bit of an attack covered in a joke so that he can point it out but not be the one to push it and hopes others will instead so that they take the blame for the lynch/make an enemy with M Plus 7. Could also just be purely a joke and he didn't actually care about the rainbow reads list at all but I get your interpretation, and slightly lean towards agreeing.

"MP then posts the rainbow, and DH gives him shit based upon the inherent invalidity of rainbow lists (see here). MP can't win."

Assuming he was in fact serious about the rainbow reads list yeah this seems like he's targetting M Plus 7 a bit here, in an unfair way, possibly Mafia-agenda

"DH has pledged to get involved at some undefined point, and frankly he has. He has 21 posts, but you wouldn't know it given the content therein. Instead of truly digging into this game in a meaningful way, he makes an excuse and blames MP's posting rate."

Would you say it's out of character for him to do something like that as Town then?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Turn how? Scramble how?

Turn how? Well that's an easy one. I just posted a book report about why I don't like your Day 0 content, and instead of even trying to deal with it you gave me this shit:

But you called it Bullshit yourself. Are you a liar? Mafia lie. Are you saying you're mafia? Who are you unknowingly teamed with?

This is incredibly week, like actually feeble, to the point that it made me wince. You're returning the assault upon me, and it's just yikes.

Scramble how?

Well, it's the second move you've made after my ISO, preceded only by wasting time on the dumbest point in it.

[Infected_alien8_]

I do have one comment.

The suggestion that I am to have "scum-slipped" while not understanding the how of it rings false to me. I cannot think of a scenario in which I have ever made a clumsy post as scum and not known immediately afterwards in every way that it could be construed as scum, so to claim I don't understand my own scum slip is a fairly adventurous call. I am meticulous with my posting as scum and will draft and redress all my posts constantly so for me even scum slip would be rare let alone scum slip and not know how.

I would have thought that Jay wouldn't entertain the notion that Mafia Mac is that clumsy, hence why I think it reflects worse on him.

Alien has restated his perceived slip, so you can continue to contend with that notion in that dialogue.

I don't think you slipped. I never claimed otherwise. I am perturbed that you are bringing this poop here now, as it suggests to me that you are reading the thread closely enough to be aware of a general negative atmosphere forming around you, but not closely enough to see the details.

Jay, your response to him was literally "I see your point. Interesting." Sure I could read that and not take that as agreement but it reads like agreement especially considering your other posts on the subject of me. Something is clouding your judgement of me. Are you just intentionally taking a fixed position on me to wind me up and see what falls out or something? I am used to you being aggressive but I cannot recall you just coming out of the blocks at me with such flawed logic before.

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show

UGH, STOP. Lol. That is not true. Where are you getting this impression? How can clarify anything I've said so far?

Just the ease you have with slapping down people as Town, it's very different to how you were in the champs. In champs you'd enter the thread with questions for basically everyone. Any town-reads you had always felt sort of thin, like you respected their ability to fake it, so you leaned Town but always wanted everyone to constantly be wary. This game you're just sort of throwing out town-reads and it feels like you're buddying with people, like when you said to someone 'we can solve this game together in both our town mindsets' or something along those lines.

I know this is a different forum and you know people well here, and that could be the explanation, it's just not something I feel right now, it just feels off to my gut, especially since colin also agreed and he's played before. I asked people who've played with you before if you are like this usually with people you know, though, and if it turns out you are then fair enough, but right now I'm suspicious of you

/butts in

maybe this is a difference in perspectives. one of the reasons that i started townreading MP7 in champs was because the way that he was acting in the thread made sense for a townie to act; he was clearly at a disadvantage meta-wise, regardless of alignment, but what i saw him doing there was peppering people with questions that allowed him to gain back some footing. he was leveling questions that allowed him to gain some of that meta secondhand.

it's not just that he had questions for people, it was the nature of the questions that mattered there. i don't think he'd have the same incentive to constantly throw out questions for the players here since he has a much greater degree of familiarity and personal meta with everybody here. what sort of questions would you expect him to be asking in this arena--the same type of questions?

also, i will say that i think that the ease with which he's been putting people down as town is actually similar to the way he did it with me in WC. that was a special case, but potentially still relevant

Well, questions-wise I'd expect him to ask a lot about people's exact thoughts when they post suspicion lists, or just ask people for their thought process, which he did a lot in the other games, but everyone's been pretty clear about their thought process so far, I myself haven't really had many questions at all, so that's not why I find him suspicious, it was just the one case where he didn't ask about that person's read about potential teammates with M Plus 7 I found suspicious because I'd have expected him to have inquired about what was going on in their head there. He's explained that, and his explanation is fair enough.

My main beef is just the ease of his town-reads. He did town-read you pretty easily but I agree that was quite a special case, most of the time, when he was giving opinions that weren't doubts or suspicious, I thought he was putting out more 'this reads genuine' statements and such rather than 'this person is locktown', and he seemed to be more trying to pick people's brains more. It could just be the environment being different and not feeling the need to do that, or him just feeling more confident here or anything like that, I just don't think I *feel* like that's what it is in my gut, it feels more like it's significant and he's trying to buddy with people or struggling to find suspicions or something, and I don't have a logical argument as to why I swing that way over the other explanations, other than just that's what my gut is saying. That feeling might be completely wrong but that's how I feel about him right now.

M Plus 7 you said if you were Mafia you'd easily be able to make suspicions up, what do you think you'd say you found suspicious?

[/spoiler]

*rips hair out*

ALIEN WHYYY LOL

Alright it’s fine.

Maybe the best way for us to proceed here is the way we did in Game 9. If you aren’t sure how I’m arriving at something just poke and prod me with very specific lines of interrogation as you so excellently do until you understand where I’m coming from. I’ll do everything I can to assist.

I’m not sure how exactly these perceptions are arising but I’m determined to help you find me this game assuming you’re town. I’m tired of talking past each other already. Lol.

As for your specific question, YES, that’s a good one and exactly what I’m talking about.

There are various things I could pursue in an LHF fashion for sure. DH, TH, and even Mac are fucking around and I could have drilled any one of them against the wall tone if I really wanted to. I probably could have been harder on aby and Tsaiah as well for not quite getting there on more players yet but that’d be unfair and I wouldn’t believe it makes them scum. (FTR I think they’re both doing amazingly.)

And I could have easily capitalized on Colin by now.

There are flaws in everyone’s game so far. When I’m scum I pick them out and drill people for it. That’s not what I’m doing.

What do you mean by 'drilled any one of them against the wall tone'?

What about colin would you capitalize on?

@MacDougall Your 'slip' was because you essentially said "the only way for me to know you're Town is if I'm Mafia', because an underlying assumption of that statement is that they're Town, because if you were Mafia you'd know it, as opposed to knowing they were also Mafia, which is a possibility to you if you're Town. We may just have different ways of thinking but if I'm Town and someone says 'you know I'm Town', my natural reaction isn't 'well if I was Mafia I'd know it, but I'm not Mafia so I don't', because that assumes you are in fact Town. I might think 'well, *if you are in fact Town* then the only way for me to know that is if I'm Mafia', and it was the 'if you are Town' bit that you left out, which could be because you're not thinking about it that way, you're assuming they're Town, because you know they are, because you're Mafia. It's very nitpicky but it's possible it reflects your thought process perfectly and you didn't have any doubt about them being Town.

I don't necessarily think it is actually a slip from scum, my gut says it wasn't at least; maybe just you didn't feel the need to add that part of 'if you're town', even though you did think it, or maybe it was an accidental assumption during that specific part of the thread, like you came at it from an angle of 'you're making this accusation that I'm Mafia and I'm showing you why I've identified this by speaking about it from your point of view', but it *could* be a slip, which is why I pointed it out. Hope that makes sense?

I understand.

I am being completely unbias when I say that if I read that post of mine and somebody else had made it and I had have added the "if you're town" like you said it would have come across worse by virtue of it being overly self conscious and track covering. There's nothing about not adding that part that makes it a scumslip, it'd be more of a scumslip if I had have.

Jay said I know he is town.
The only way for me to know he is town is if I am Mafia.
I would add the "if you're town" only to try to come across more town. I would probably have said it the way you said I should have said it if I was scum.

Alright, I think that's fair. I still think it's possible you just left it out because it wasn't in your thought process but this makes more sense to me, I'm inclined to believe you on that.

[DharmaHelper]

Turn how? Scramble how?

Turn how? Well that's an easy one. I just posted a book report about why I don't like your Day 0 content, and instead of even trying to deal with it you gave me this shit:

But you called it Bullshit yourself. Are you a liar? Mafia lie. Are you saying you're mafia? Who are you unknowingly teamed with?

This is incredibly week, like actually feeble, to the point that it made me wince. You're returning the assault upon me, and it's just yikes.

Scramble how?

Well, it's the second move you've made after my ISO, preceded only by wasting time on the dumbest point in it.

"Turn how? Its a thing you did. You said words."

"Scramble how? You said words in a thing you said."

[DharmaHelper]

I dunno man believe what you want my dude. I haven't read any (Or I guess at this point 99.5%) of Day 0 and I don't really intend to at least until Day 1 starts. I'm busting MP's balls for posting a million times per page because its fun, and we're friends, and the fact that he's posting a million times per page makes me want to catch up 100% less.

What else did you take issue with? My lack of hubris? I dunno man, that's like...your opinion man.

[DharmaHelper]

Like people are all on each others jock about this Mac slip or whatever and I'm like... what even is that.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

What sort of level of hubris would you expect, or specifically talking what response would you expect from him?

What exactly would you expect from him?

Playful arrogance, or a hardball answer, or something befitting a proud man.

Would you say it's out of character for him to do something like that as Town then?

It's not what I expected to see. I won't pretend I have played a ton of games with DharmaHelper, but I have still been around the site a long time and know well the persona he carries around. It's part of his charm, a charm which is nowhere to be found in this game so far.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I dunno man believe what you want my dude. I haven't read any (Or I guess at this point 99.5%) of Day 0 and I don't really intend to at least until Day 1 starts. I'm busting MP's balls for posting a million times per page because its fun, and we're friends, and the fact that he's posting a million times per page makes me want to catch up 100% less.

What else did you take issue with? My lack of hubris? I dunno man, that's like...your opinion man.

Am I bad?