DFS Mafia [ENDGAME]

[DharmaHelper]

The flaw in Mac's "Lets lynch the people who aren't playing because then we'll have a much more active thread" plan is pretty glaring.

If you already, as Mac admits, have an active thread to pull pages of information from, why would you advocate lynching someone who isn't part of that pool of information? If, by Mac's own admission, there is an unusually high amount of participation already, then there's an unusually high amount of data, an unusually high chance *already* that an active player is bad, an unusually high chance that player fucked up, an unusually high chance that if you dialed in on that player you could build an unusually tight case for their lynch.

Mac (and to an extent Jay) taking an easy road when they keep bitching and moaning about how much stuff is in the thread already instead of using the stuff in the thread to actually hunt kind of makes me go "Hmmmmmmmmm"

But hey what do I know.

That’s not how POE works. What you’re describing is an information lynch which is... gross.

I do get where you’re coming from though.

Lynching...based on information.....is gross?

I dunno man its been a while since I played the Queens Game, so I'm out of touch with all you new bloods and your lingo and shit but back in my day POE was a writer and we lynched people based on evidence we found in the thread.

[Tangrowth]

Syndicate meetup it’s happening I swear

[Tangrowth]

The flaw in Mac's "Lets lynch the people who aren't playing because then we'll have a much more active thread" plan is pretty glaring.

If you already, as Mac admits, have an active thread to pull pages of information from, why would you advocate lynching someone who isn't part of that pool of information? If, by Mac's own admission, there is an unusually high amount of participation already, then there's an unusually high amount of data, an unusually high chance *already* that an active player is bad, an unusually high chance that player fucked up, an unusually high chance that if you dialed in on that player you could build an unusually tight case for their lynch.

Mac (and to an extent Jay) taking an easy road when they keep bitching and moaning about how much stuff is in the thread already instead of using the stuff in the thread to actually hunt kind of makes me go "Hmmmmmmmmm"

But hey what do I know.

That’s not how POE works. What you’re describing is an information lynch which is... gross.

I do get where you’re coming from though.

Lynching...based on information.....is gross?

I dunno man its been a while since I played the Queens Game, so I'm out of touch with all you new bloods and your lingo and shit but back in my day POE was a writer and we lynched people based on evidence we found in the thread.

I think we are on two completely different pages here.

Hold on I’ll describe it better once I’m less distracted.

[DharmaHelper]

The flaw in Mac's "Lets lynch the people who aren't playing because then we'll have a much more active thread" plan is pretty glaring.

If you already, as Mac admits, have an active thread to pull pages of information from, why would you advocate lynching someone who isn't part of that pool of information? If, by Mac's own admission, there is an unusually high amount of participation already, then there's an unusually high amount of data, an unusually high chance *already* that an active player is bad, an unusually high chance that player fucked up, an unusually high chance that if you dialed in on that player you could build an unusually tight case for their lynch.

Mac (and to an extent Jay) taking an easy road when they keep bitching and moaning about how much stuff is in the thread already instead of using the stuff in the thread to actually hunt kind of makes me go "Hmmmmmmmmm"

But hey what do I know.

That’s not how POE works. What you’re describing is an information lynch which is... gross.

I do get where you’re coming from though.

Lynching...based on information.....is gross?

I dunno man its been a while since I played the Queens Game, so I'm out of touch with all you new bloods and your lingo and shit but back in my day POE was a writer and we lynched people based on evidence we found in the thread.

I think we are on two completely different pages here.

Hold on I’ll describe it better once I’m less distracted.

Well god damn son you're telling me snorting that booger sugar and going Bruce Almighty all over your keyboard has you turned around and confused?

[DharmaHelper]

POE = Process of Elimination, which I wasn't talking about

Information Lynch = Lynching someone purely to collect information? Which I wasn't advocating.

[Tangrowth]

Okay back at a computer. Give me a second.

[ColinIsCool]

POE = Process of Elimination, which I wasn't talking about

Information Lynch = Lynching someone purely to collect information? Which I wasn't advocating.

People are advocating this for Turbo, though

[Tangrowth]

POE = Process of Elimination, which I wasn't talking about

Information Lynch = Lynching someone purely to collect information? Which I wasn't advocating.

Correct.

I see now.

You're not bothered by lynching Turnip Head by POE.

You're bothered by the argument that within the POE pool he's the best choice because of providing information.

Am I understanding better or still off base?

[Tangrowth]

Also I think one of Mac or Jay is scum. I need to figure out why I think this.

[abyssum]

I am usually a proponent of the "give the new players Day 1 pass" standard, but I am not sure that's a responsible strategy when new players account for 27% of the field.

yeah, i can't speak for anybody else, but i don't need a D1 pass. i'm not quite as active here as i usually am on D1, but that's because i'm doing more absorbing and trying to commit things to memory; people can still judge my content as it stands and draw conclusions off of it. if anything i needed the D0 pass but i think i'm more or less oriented now lol

[DharmaHelper]

POE = Process of Elimination, which I wasn't talking about

Information Lynch = Lynching someone purely to collect information? Which I wasn't advocating.

Correct.

I see now.

You're not bothered by lynching Turnip Head by POE.

You're bothered by the argument that within the POE pool he's the best choice because of providing information.

Am I understanding better or still off base?

I'm bothered by the argument "Lynching the quiet players will mean a more active thread which will mean a more likely chance to catch mafia" When Mac's already admitted correctly that this thread is already unusually active which by his own logic means there's already an unusually high chance to catch out mafia, so a better argument would be "Why waste a lynch on someone who isn't active when a better lynch would be someone who is active and suspicious based on the unusually high amount of evidence we have in the thread"

[Tangrowth]

I am usually a proponent of the "give the new players Day 1 pass" standard, but I am not sure that's a responsible strategy when new players account for 27% of the field.

yeah, i can't speak for anybody else, but i don't need a D1 pass. i'm not quite as active here as i usually am on D1, but that's because i'm doing more absorbing and trying to commit things to memory; people can still judge my content as it stands and draw conclusions off of it. if anything i needed the D0 pass but i think i'm more or less oriented now lol

I don't think anyone, or at least I don't, thinks you guys need a pass by any means. You're all playing excellently.

We just are too nice around here (except Epi), and I personally hate the idea of saying PLAY THIS GAME WITH MEE EEEEEEEEE and then lynching you D1 regardless of what alignment you've randed in-game.

[abyssum]

Hey abyssum, I do have a question re: your reads list. I know you said you're going to bed so whenever you get to it.

How come you docked points from Robot for being in catch-up mode but not Tsaiah?

because Tsaiah hasn't been exclusively in catch-up mode & she hasn't been posting Big Catch-Up Posts (what i consider to be more in catch-up mode than just...catching up. being in catch-up mode isn't inherently scummy, but it does not give as much opportunity to find someone's content towny, if that makes sense

[DharmaHelper]

I am usually a proponent of the "give the new players Day 1 pass" standard, but I am not sure that's a responsible strategy when new players account for 27% of the field.

yeah, i can't speak for anybody else, but i don't need a D1 pass. i'm not quite as active here as i usually am on D1, but that's because i'm doing more absorbing and trying to commit things to memory; people can still judge my content as it stands and draw conclusions off of it. if anything i needed the D0 pass but i think i'm more or less oriented now lol

I don't think anyone, or at least I don't, thinks you guys need a pass by any means. You're all playing excellently.

We just are too nice around here (except Epi), and I personally hate the idea of saying PLAY THIS GAME WITH MEE EEEEEEEEE and then lynching you D1 regardless of what alignment you've randed in-game.

Back when we played mafia on stone tablets it was considered poor form to immediately eliminate new players, which is a courtesy practice I've kept with to the best of my ability as long as I've played. Except possibly in the very rare case a new player was either bad or an asshole.

[Tangrowth]

POE = Process of Elimination, which I wasn't talking about

Information Lynch = Lynching someone purely to collect information? Which I wasn't advocating.

Correct.

I see now.

You're not bothered by lynching Turnip Head by POE.

You're bothered by the argument that within the POE pool he's the best choice because of providing information.

Am I understanding better or still off base?

I'm bothered by the argument "Lynching the quiet players will mean a more active thread which will mean a more likely chance to catch mafia" When Mac's already admitted correctly that this thread is already unusually active which by his own logic means there's already an unusually high chance to catch out mafia, so a better argument would be "Why waste a lynch on someone who isn't active when a better lynch would be someone who is active and suspicious based on the unusually high amount of evidence we have in the thread"

*brain explodes*

If there is no compelling reason to lynch a player due to in-thread content, then the default is to lynch the player in the POE who is least likely to provide information as to whether or not they are town in future periods.

Right now that looks like Marmot or Turnip Head.

Now if you have a compelling reason to NOT lynch any of the low posters, that's what we need to discuss. I agree with you that we shouldn't just auto-lynch the least active player.

[Tangrowth]

I am usually a proponent of the "give the new players Day 1 pass" standard, but I am not sure that's a responsible strategy when new players account for 27% of the field.

yeah, i can't speak for anybody else, but i don't need a D1 pass. i'm not quite as active here as i usually am on D1, but that's because i'm doing more absorbing and trying to commit things to memory; people can still judge my content as it stands and draw conclusions off of it. if anything i needed the D0 pass but i think i'm more or less oriented now lol

I don't think anyone, or at least I don't, thinks you guys need a pass by any means. You're all playing excellently.

We just are too nice around here (except Epi), and I personally hate the idea of saying PLAY THIS GAME WITH MEE EEEEEEEEE and then lynching you D1 regardless of what alignment you've randed in-game.

Back when we played mafia on stone tablets it was considered poor form to immediately eliminate new players, which is a courtesy practice I've kept with to the best of my ability as long as I've played. Except possibly in the very rare case a new player was either bad or an asshole.

Were you one of the players that started that even? I remember S~V~S always making a huge deal about it even when I joined back in 2010.

[Tangrowth]

Hey abyssum, I do have a question re: your reads list. I know you said you're going to bed so whenever you get to it.

How come you docked points from Robot for being in catch-up mode but not Tsaiah?

because Tsaiah hasn't been exclusively in catch-up mode & she hasn't been posting Big Catch-Up Posts (what i consider to be more in catch-up mode than just...catching up. being in catch-up mode isn't inherently scummy, but it does not give as much opportunity to find someone's content towny, if that makes sense

It makes total sense, thanks.

I actually agree with you FWIW but I needed to hear this.

[abyssum]

alien i am not quoting that and spoilering so you'll have to deal with this

[mention]Infected_alien8_[/mention]

But didn't you suspect Colin for doing that? What's the difference?

no, what Colin did was ask a naked question to the thread with no apparent idea in mind who the question was for, and had to be prompted for his own take. what i was referring to Jay doing was waiting for MP7 to respond to something somebody said (i think it was you?) & then dropping his opinion on MP7's play. can dig up either post if you want me to.

i didn't even suspect Colin for it really, considering i have him as slight town; i just think it's a slightly sour look in an otherwise okay ISO. i like pointing out things that could go for or against a read when i think of em

What about his question did you like/why was it generally a good look here? Also do you think the fact that despite feeling pressure he's keeping up and doing his thing makes him Townie, and why?

i don't think he's feeling pressured to post, but is posting and making content anyway. i associate that with town more often than mafia because mafia feels pressured to post, and often feels pressured to post in a particular way.

give me a minute and i'll quote the post in question bc i want to illustrate what i mean with it anyway. this is probably not my Most Popular Read by any means so it'll probably be good to point out to ppl what i'm seeing

Bit confused by your strength of your M Plus 7 read - why does he get strong Town for being enthusiastic and eager to get people to post? Don't you think he'd do that as scum?

i think he'd probably be enthusiastic and post a lot as scum. i don't think that he'd be as eager to get other people to participate as scum. it's not purely a volume read (because pure volume reads are garbage), it's what the content reflects.

essentially, i think high-volume mafia love hearing themselves (and maybe their buddies) talk, and that's what their content will be focused on. i think high-volume town love hearing themselves *and others* talk. this is related to my Jay read in a way--i think that, together, they have been encouraging people to post their opinions and thoughts. it's possible that this is within MP7's scum meta, but i don't really know his scum meta, so i'm doing the best with my personal impressions of the game, i suppose. people with experience with him can certainly weigh in on the topic.

Not following sorry, why is that not fine and feeling like I'm trying to shade instead of solve?

it was one of Lunalee's first posts and probably the first post that you could say had content in it, and instead of trying to engage her on it, you just sort of called it bad and fake and left it at that. there was no attempt to figure out why she thought what she did, you just...painted her red and left. i don't like it.

[abyssum]

Hey abyssum, I do have a question re: your reads list. I know you said you're going to bed so whenever you get to it.

How come you docked points from Robot for being in catch-up mode but not Tsaiah?

because Tsaiah hasn't been exclusively in catch-up mode & she hasn't been posting Big Catch-Up Posts (what i consider to be more in catch-up mode than just...catching up. being in catch-up mode isn't inherently scummy, but it does not give as much opportunity to find someone's content towny, if that makes sense

It makes total sense, thanks.

I actually agree with you FWIW but I needed to hear this.

why did you need to hear this?

[DharmaHelper]

I am usually a proponent of the "give the new players Day 1 pass" standard, but I am not sure that's a responsible strategy when new players account for 27% of the field.

yeah, i can't speak for anybody else, but i don't need a D1 pass. i'm not quite as active here as i usually am on D1, but that's because i'm doing more absorbing and trying to commit things to memory; people can still judge my content as it stands and draw conclusions off of it. if anything i needed the D0 pass but i think i'm more or less oriented now lol

I don't think anyone, or at least I don't, thinks you guys need a pass by any means. You're all playing excellently.

We just are too nice around here (except Epi), and I personally hate the idea of saying PLAY THIS GAME WITH MEE EEEEEEEEE and then lynching you D1 regardless of what alignment you've randed in-game.

Back when we played mafia on stone tablets it was considered poor form to immediately eliminate new players, which is a courtesy practice I've kept with to the best of my ability as long as I've played. Except possibly in the very rare case a new player was either bad or an asshole.

Were you one of the players that started that even? I remember S~V~S always making a huge deal about it even when I joined back in 2010.

Fuck it I may have been. At the very least I kept to the practice. Doesn't mean I always gave new fish a pass or declared them town out the gate or anything. Even when I did suspect new players I gave them a lot more rope in their first game or two before I dug in on them.

Anyway I'll get to your actual point in my next post.

[Tangrowth]

Hey abyssum, I do have a question re: your reads list. I know you said you're going to bed so whenever you get to it.

How come you docked points from Robot for being in catch-up mode but not Tsaiah?

because Tsaiah hasn't been exclusively in catch-up mode & she hasn't been posting Big Catch-Up Posts (what i consider to be more in catch-up mode than just...catching up. being in catch-up mode isn't inherently scummy, but it does not give as much opportunity to find someone's content towny, if that makes sense

It makes total sense, thanks.

I actually agree with you FWIW but I needed to hear this.

why did you need to hear this?

I need to make sure I'm not just projecting my own thoughts onto you and Tsaiah. You should know that already.

[DharmaHelper]

POE = Process of Elimination, which I wasn't talking about

Information Lynch = Lynching someone purely to collect information? Which I wasn't advocating.

Correct.

I see now.

You're not bothered by lynching Turnip Head by POE.

You're bothered by the argument that within the POE pool he's the best choice because of providing information.

Am I understanding better or still off base?

I'm bothered by the argument "Lynching the quiet players will mean a more active thread which will mean a more likely chance to catch mafia" When Mac's already admitted correctly that this thread is already unusually active which by his own logic means there's already an unusually high chance to catch out mafia, so a better argument would be "Why waste a lynch on someone who isn't active when a better lynch would be someone who is active and suspicious based on the unusually high amount of evidence we have in the thread"

*brain explodes*

If there is no compelling reason to lynch a player due to in-thread content, then the default is to lynch the player in the POE who is least likely to provide information as to whether or not they are town in future periods.

Right now that looks like Marmot or Turnip Head.

Now if you have a compelling reason to NOT lynch any of the low posters, that's what we need to discuss. I agree with you that we shouldn't just auto-lynch the least active player.

1, You can't think of a single compelling reason to lynch someone in 30+ pages of content?
2. A compelling reason not to lynch a low poster out of the gate is that you have 30+ pages of actual content to base a real vote on instead.

Glad I could sort that out for you.

[abyssum]

MP7, you want to lynch Marmot?

[Tangrowth]

Spoiler: show

some reads/impressions on the game so far:

ColinIsCool - encouraged people to give extra meta for specifically scum play, which is a +1 in my opinion. the post itself is pretty open-ended and inclusive, which i think indicates more town behavior (attempting to assess a wide range of people in the game + generate content about those players). i feel conflicted about him spelling out that he isn't willing to vote for new players on exactly D1; i think it's a good policy that avoids some of the easier mislynches of the game, but the need to spell it out more than once is so-so. liked his progression on alien.

he's done a couple things that i'm not a fan of: he asks the thread-at-large if sprityo picking apart Mac's reads list was hunting or discrediting without offering his own opinion til prompted, but i'm holding off on really evaluating him on that point since it's the dead end of his ISO.

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DharmaHelper - will not stop talking about the fact that he hasn't read the game, which got annoying about the third time he mentioned it. unfortunately, not reading the game isn't technically AI. he started my ISO but i think he dropped it because i haven't seen anything else. he makes me laugh but unfortunately that isn't AI either. idk call me when he starts playing the game for real and i'll reassess.

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Infected_alien8_ - ok, so i'm assigning alien the color i chose for "slight scum," but it's mostly because i'm being pulled in a few different directions with him and i don't wanna slap the neutral color down on him bc he's done scummy+towny stuff (not just Nothing). i could see him as either town or scum as of right now, and i'm worried that i'm having some difficulty reading him because of how recently we played together where he was scum, but whatever. he's absolutely the towniest of the 'slight scum' and could probably do with his own color or tier, but eh.

i've already stated that i think alien's entrance to thread is towny. it's a lot more solid and less hedge-y than Alien was in wildcards (where he was scum), and even though i disagree with his points on MP7, i can sort of understand where it's coming from: Alien played two games with a town MP7, and the last game Alien was scum while MP7 was town; if Alien is town in this game, then his last experience of MP7 was seeing him post in a very town-like manner (because Alien knows he is town), and now he can't see his posts at the same level of towniness because he doesn't have that confirmation. i have zero difficulty seeing that post/its proximal follow-up as coming from town.

where i'm not following is where he does things like accuse Lunalee of not being genuine before he ever tries to engage her on where he thinks she's wrong. he says that she is wrong about him being in commentary mode/not having opinions: fine. he says that her thoughts about not only him, but about Turnip Head, are not genuine and make her scummy: not fine. it doesn't feel like he's trying to solve there, it feels like he's trying to shade.

points in favor: seems to be posting more loosely now than in wildcards, seems to want follow-up on his thoughts, invites thread to participate in his thoughts, tone might be good? (i have decent vibes off of his posts but i'm not sure if this is tone or just me being stupid)
points against: strayed a bit more toward overexplaining as the game has gone on, seems laser-focused on MP7 without a lot of willingness to reassess (it feels like every few pages that MP7 posts, Alien pops up to say it's scummy without considering town possibilities), suspicion on Lunalee seems odd, has an "off" feeling about me that he can't seem to get a grasp on even when i engage him about it.

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JaggedJimmyJay - i had a townread form on Jay somewhat early, which is sometimes a bit worrisome for me but i think is probably fine here. he came out of his cage giving opinions on everything, which i like a lot. he seems like he's in Takes Everything Seriously mod & also seems to be encouraging content on a similar level to MP7, but not in the same places (if it was in the same places, i'd feel like Jay might be just following MP7 around and echoing him or vice versa, so that's a bonus). i liked that he suspected me at first and later gave some sensible light aby-could-be-town reasoning; his posting on MP7 has been pretty solid as well.

there are some things i really love in the way he posts, too. like letting people respond to things before responding to them himself/giving his own take, even though he clearly has one--it's a minor thing but i think it reflects a townie's mindset pretty well and also indicates valuing process over appearance IMO. maybe it's a little too minor, but it's something that i really like seeing.

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Kylemii - seems to be posting in a lighthearted way that could probably easily veer into detached, but i don't think it has yet. he posted asking people about their histories, and when Jay responded saying that he thought it reflected poorly on kyle, kyle turned that on its head with a question that i liked. generally a good look. he called me soft good which is better than normal good because it's softer and therefore better fight me. (actual impression: i think his reads list makes sense and doesn't feel like he's padding it or unnecessarily shading anyone).

overall doesn't feel like he's feeling a lot of pressure in particular, but is keeping up and doing his thing anyway. he's not posting in a high-volume/wordcount way but there's thoughts there that i don't have to fight for.

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Lunalee - her first notable post is a reads list that i like the formatting of (i'm a sucker for things that jump out at my face, ok?) and is in reverse alphabetical order, which is fun. there are some sort of empty reads there, though idk if i can fault her for it considering it was D0 and she didn't seem to indicate reading the entire thread. her interaction with Robot on sprityo/Mac is kind of weird; i think it's a worse look for Robot than it is for Luna (obviously it could be bad for both of them). i think her take on it is a little bit too summary-like, but has an interesting take on it that i like (and iirc is not actually in line with the thread consensus).

she doesn't seem to have any issues with her opinions and doesn't seem interested in changing them without a good reason to do so (can be seen pretty easily in alien engaging her on sprityo). she has a couple of things that are a little immediately off-putting to me (like saying "you should trust me, I have been nothing but my usual town self this game" to MP7), but i've seen similar things from MP7, so it may be a cultural difference...? would appreciate somebody who's used to this forum weighing in on that.

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MacDougall - a bit aggressive at times/in directions that i don't always fully understand. a lot of his posts seem like he's just reacting to things that happen in the thread (especially-to-almost-exclusively the ones that pertain to him) instead of producing much of his own content, but it's early so that may be a shit take. i don't like him admitting to trying to adhere to his town meta; i don't intimately know his play history so the context may change that, but i kind of just want to automatically lynch people who make admissions like this.

i like him telling Jay to go back to suspecting him. it's funny and probably comes from town more often than not. i liked his conduct with MP7 post-mutual outburst, too. i'm leaning on the side of him being town that plays in a self-centered way (i really don't know how to word this in a way that doesn't sound rude; i think it's a legitimate way to play for a lot of people) and expresses frustration easily.

some more points in favor: i like him appearing to engage people genuinely once he's calmed down a bit (appears to do this without calling somebody town/giving credit to them, but engages them anyway). if his statements about viewing meticulousness being a mafia trait are accurate (anyone w/ experience with Mac that wants to weigh in on that?), i don't think his posting matches up to that.

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Marmot - i was frankly surprised Marmot had even 8 posts, so i guess my memory sucks.

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M Plus 7 - i am not ISOing MP7 as a whole. bite me. i like his enthusiasm and his eagerness to both post and get other people to post alongside of him (the latter in particular, more strongly than the first point). more recently i like the way he pounced on Mac but then backed off and apologized for his behavior in a way that seemed sorta sheepish (in the sense of "i jumped the gun" not "oops Mac has teeth" since he'd know the latter).

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RobotNerd277 - Robot seems to be in perpetual catch-up mode so far, which isn't AI, but is a good mode to be in if you want to avoid potential scumslips. says they're trying to get a read particularly on Mac, but i'm not certain as to why; they then ping Mac to ask for a reason to not be at the bottom of their reads list. their worry with MP7 and subsequent clearing-up of that worry is an interesting progression, but i'm not sure if i think it's town or not. like i mentioned briefly in Lunalee's section, Robot leveling a question about sprityo/Mac to Lunalee is weird and almost like they're expecting to be questioned on why they're asking Luna specifically. i might feel better once Robot real-times some more.

some points in their favor: says that strong townreads are good to have early on as long as you reevaluate (caveat: robot/tsaiah could be partners, but their other interactions don't make this the likeliest in my brain). read on Jay seems good and not necessarily conventional (gives a point about liking Jay's read on me specifically; Robot doesn't have a strong townread on me so it's likely not buddying, and w/ Jay being consensus town, they didn't have to give a reason that specific). rather minor points in the long run but i want to keep them in mind.

this read is really one more about conflicting pieces of evidence than anything, and me wanting to keep my eyeballs on Robot because of it. has Robot played here before or something?

they posted this while i was ISOing Russ and i hate it:

Wait why the sudden flip onto Kylemii? I'm willing to join the wagon, but I just don't understand why.

if you don't understand why the wagon is happening, why are you willing to join it?

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Russtifinko - kinda started off with a decent and reasonable analysis of Mac and alien re: the scumslip situation. i like his interactions overall with alien, actually; Russ comes off like he's grilling him, but the logic isn't thin there. him questioning Colin on why he's high up in the reads list is a good look, and he again comes in with reasonable words with Mac and MP7-this-time. seems self-assured and willing to follow his own thoughts and he just seems really nice!

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sprityo - i hate, hate, hate the way that the Mac ISO is formatted. it's hard to read. that's not AI, i just wanted to complain about it.

what i'm getting from reading sprityo's ISO is that it's largely reactionary, which by default makes him hard to read for me. he said that Mac is attempting to distance from Jay, at the same time that Mac is giving Jay a townread--does 'distancing' mean something different in this forum than in mine? because to me, distancing implies that two scumbuddies are attempting to appear like they don't have knowledge of each other's alignment or are putting light suspicion on one another to seem like they aren't teamed. sprityo went into that ISO with the express purpose of dismantling Mac's arguments, regardless of alignment.

points in favor: good ISO of Jay, seems to be going all-out w/ Mac, sprit/Mac are an unlikely team*
points against: quickly dismissive of Mac's posting, apparent bias in assessing Mac (probably 65/35 on this coming from scum though), has two very consensus townreads (and no other townreads)

*this doesn't really matter for D1, it only matters for potential reference later on

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Tsaiah - she's posting pretty easy-breezy this game, and seems to be evaluating and poking in the places that i'd expect her to evaluate/poke. while i like that she was able to give reasoning for me 'getting townier' and the progression makes sense to me, that's only moderate confidence for me on her being town. i think for the most part, the safest way for me to go with Tsaiah is just to gaze at her warily for most of D1 and pick apart what she says and see if any of it rings false/distracting. atm she's following the flow of the thread well and seems authentic and like she's enjoying herself.

-

Turnip Head - first really game-relevant post is just asking if Colin is bad without offering any of his own opinions. does the same thing later on with Lunalee. he's clearly been around and has said almost nothing that could be construed as solving or trying to progress the game forward. i don't really care if it's "too suspicious to be suspicious" or whatever logic is supposed to apply here, he's just not really moving the thread forward or showing off his shiny thoughts and i don't like it.

this is a sad read for me to have to make because i really like TH's name.

arranged more in colorful order for easier viewing:

Spoiler: show

M Plus 7
JaggedJimmyJay
Kylemii
Tsaiah
Russtifinko
MacDougall
ColinIsCool
Lunalee
Marmot
DharmaHelper
(Infected_alien8_)
sprityo
RobotNerd277
Turnip Head

"i've already stated that i think alien's entrance to thread is towny. it's a lot more solid and less hedge-y than Alien was in wildcards (where he was scum), and even though i disagree with his points on MP7, i can sort of understand where it's coming from: Alien played two games with a town MP7, and the last game Alien was scum while MP7 was town; if Alien is town in this game, then his last experience of MP7 was seeing him post in a very town-like manner (because Alien knows he is town), and now he can't see his posts at the same level of towniness because he doesn't have that confirmation. i have zero difficulty seeing that post/its proximal follow-up as coming from town."

This is pretty insightful actually, I like this take. Maybe that is what's happening.

"he says that her thoughts about not only him, but about Turnip Head, are not genuine and make her scummy: not fine. it doesn't feel like he's trying to solve there, it feels like he's trying to shade."

Not following sorry, why is that not fine and feeling like I'm trying to shade instead of solve?

"JaggedJimmyJay - i had a townread form on Jay somewhat early, which is sometimes a bit worrisome for me but i think is probably fine here. he came out of his cage giving opinions on everything, which i like a lot. he seems like he's in Takes Everything Seriously mod & also seems to be encouraging content on a similar level to MP7, but not in the same places (if it was in the same places, i'd feel like Jay might be just following MP7 around and echoing him or vice versa, so that's a bonus). i liked that he suspected me at first and later gave some sensible light aby-could-be-town reasoning; his posting on MP7 has been pretty solid as well."

I like this a lot as a point.

"there are some things i really love in the way he posts, too. like letting people respond to things before responding to them himself/giving his own take, even though he clearly has one--it's a minor thing but i think it reflects a townie's mindset pretty well and also indicates valuing process over appearance IMO. maybe it's a little too minor, but it's something that i really like seeing."

But didn't you suspect Colin for doing that? What's the difference?

"
Kylemii - seems to be posting in a lighthearted way that could probably easily veer into detached, but i don't think it has yet. he posted asking people about their histories, and when Jay responded saying that he thought it reflected poorly on kyle, kyle turned that on its head with a question that i liked. generally a good look. he called me soft good which is better than normal good because it's softer and therefore better fight me. (actual impression: i think his reads list makes sense and doesn't feel like he's padding it or unnecessarily shading anyone).

overall doesn't feel like he's feeling a lot of pressure in particular, but is keeping up and doing his thing anyway. he's not posting in a high-volume/wordcount way but there's thoughts there that i don't have to fight for."

What about his question did you like/why was it generally a good look here? Also do you think the fact that despite feeling pressure he's keeping up and doing his thing makes him Townie, and why?

"M Plus 7 - i am not ISOing MP7 as a whole. bite me. i like his enthusiasm and his eagerness to both post and get other people to post alongside of him (the latter in particular, more strongly than the first point). more recently i like the way he pounced on Mac but then backed off and apologized for his behavior in a way that seemed sorta sheepish (in the sense of "i jumped the gun" not "oops Mac has teeth" since he'd know the latter)."

Bit confused by your strength of your M Plus 7 read - why does he get strong Town for being enthusiastic and eager to get people to post? Don't you think he'd do that as scum?

--

Overall I quite like this post, some of it I find really insightful and agree with. Don't understand the M Plus 7 read though, the read on kyle feels slightly too generous too but I'll wait for a response

--

Okay, I'll do a rainbow reads list this time because a few people keep pointing out that I only have 1 suspicion or something and I think it's because I'm not laying out my order of everyone clearly and so the only way people have to gauge where I'm at is by seeing who I'm pointing at more, which is M Plus 7 due to the sheer amount of content he has that I can address and also because I've wanted to lynch him most. Maybe this clears things up a bit in terms of where my head is at:

Strong Mafia

Moderate Mafia
M Plus 7 - moving this down to moderate for now because aby's take on it is making me doubt myself and maybe I'm just being a tunnelly idiot. His dogpees don't feel real to me at all though
Luna - reads feel forced as I've mentioned already, their tone and lack of panic in general is holding me back from putting them as 'Strong Mafia' though
Russ - his push on me feels agendary, I don't get the sense he's trying to actually sort me at all, but not putting him at Strong yet because I want others' thoughts on this first since I'm likely biased

Slight Mafia
DH - Jay had some good points about him choosing only the weak point in the ISO to respond to and his read of jay being 'I don't know if you're bad' and then suddenly 'you're probably bad' reads as a fake progression to me, but I'm not sure why he'd post the way he's been posting as Mafia because theres 0 attempt to fit in as a Townie at all and I don't think he'd try to rely on a WIFOM like 'why would he do this as Mafia!' to win the game

Neutral
Kyle - don't remember any of their posts, maybe that's a bad thing but my memory does suck
Marmot - I didn't think they'd posted but aby said they have 8 posts
Robot - their meta seemed different to me at first, but their 'I'll sheep the wagon' post actually seemed a lot more like robo was last game I played when they were Town - although they did this right after I pointed out their meta was different so hesitant to award big points for it, but it makes me feel a bit better about them at least. Their read on Luna felt a bit TMI though, but I'm waiting to here their responses to me about that before I look into that further
Sprit - don't remember any of their posts other than when they were attacking Mac and I didn't really feel anything particularly alignment-indicative about it other than it felt like the ratio of defence:figuring Mac's alignment out was a bit biased to defence, so minor point against him for that. M Plus 7 said they're low hanging fruit so I want to give them the benefit of the doubt a bit and wait to see more content from them to form a proper opinion. Out of the neutrals he's probably the closest to being in the Slight Mafia category
Turnip - don't remember any of their posts really, so no opinion here either, I think I saw them say they're not reading the thread properly yet?


Slight Town
Colin - I still don't remember why I feel this way so I should go back and check
Mac - mostly seems authentic and I don't see much agenda for the most part, but his 'annoyance' with M Plus 7 didn't translate into his posts at all for me so I wonder if it's fake, also his push on sprit didn't have any solviness to it but I can also see a world where he does that as an annoyed Townie who just wants to lynch the person. Not sure at all what to make of his 'I lied to fit into my meta' thing, it can swing both ways to me, but it keeps echoing in the back of my mind and making me paranoid. My gut says he's Town despite that stuff so I'm putting him here but out of all the Town reads I have this is probably the lowest.
Aby - my mind is flip-flopping on aby a lot, she felt off all game before her latest reads list, which I like a lot and seems like someone genuinely coming from a point of not knowing anyone's alignments because most of the reads I can relate to. But I find their M Plus 7 read concerning, as well as their early interaction with M Plus 7 feeling awkward and weird. I'll put them in Slight Town for their latest reads post but she's fairly close to neutral and if M Plus 7 turns out to be Mafia she'll likely be my next #1 suspicion.


Moderate Town
Nobody I guess!

Strong Town
Jay - I like most of his points, I read him as genuine, I buy that he's actually trying to solve the game and I find his lines of investigation insightful.
Tsiah - I love their lines of inquiery, it's all very unique and poking into things that everyone else glossed over. It reads very journalisty and investigative y, and I get overall good vibes from them.

[mention]Infected_alien8_[/mention]

I want to talk to you a bit more. Two things for now.

1) Just so it's clear... my read of Tsaiah ISN'T just tone. I have said (but I know I post a lot so I can understand if you overlooked it) that I genuinely can understand how she's coming to her reads, conclusions, and questions pretty much every time. I'm still asking her questions NOW so I can be sure of that, but yeah. That's a form of mindmelding as well. I like to think I'd be able to tell if she's making shit up because her brain works pretty similarly to mine, but I'm going to keep dissecting everything she says to make sure I do that.

2) Regarding Russ, let's talk about that. If he you are town and he is scum, I think that's a universe we need to consider. I did get a slight impression most recently that he just didn't consider your counterarguments, like you said. Can you try to like specifically point to me which parts of the posts of Russ seemed like agenda to you?

[Tangrowth]

Spoiler: show

POE = Process of Elimination, which I wasn't talking about

Information Lynch = Lynching someone purely to collect information? Which I wasn't advocating.

Correct.

I see now.

You're not bothered by lynching Turnip Head by POE.

You're bothered by the argument that within the POE pool he's the best choice because of providing information.

Am I understanding better or still off base?

I'm bothered by the argument "Lynching the quiet players will mean a more active thread which will mean a more likely chance to catch mafia" When Mac's already admitted correctly that this thread is already unusually active which by his own logic means there's already an unusually high chance to catch out mafia, so a better argument would be "Why waste a lynch on someone who isn't active when a better lynch would be someone who is active and suspicious based on the unusually high amount of evidence we have in the thread"

*brain explodes*

If there is no compelling reason to lynch a player due to in-thread content, then the default is to lynch the player in the POE who is least likely to provide information as to whether or not they are town in future periods.

Right now that looks like Marmot or Turnip Head.

Now if you have a compelling reason to NOT lynch any of the low posters, that's what we need to discuss. I agree with you that we shouldn't just auto-lynch the least active player.

1, You can't think of a single compelling reason to lynch someone in 30+ pages of content?
2. A compelling reason not to lynch a low poster out of the gate is that you have 30+ pages of actual content to base a real vote on instead.

Glad I could sort that out for you.

No, I'm not saying that at all. We were talking about Mac's argument. I'm not arguing this.

[Tangrowth]

MP7, you want to lynch Marmot?

No.

It appears I've been unclear.

I've said before that I don't particularly want to lynch Marmot because he's IMO clutch in the lategame. There's also nothing to judge. And Marmot can be very active, but he has lurked or been inactive before due to IRL as either alignment enough to give me pause here. It'd be basically a coin flip at this point.

[Tangrowth]

Personally I'm actually starting to zoom back in on Mac v. sprityo, and I'm wondering if maybe I was right about Mac after all. I need to chew on it some more and dig into both of their ISOs. I looked at sprityo last night and came out very torn but thinking he still might be town.

[abyssum]

Maybe I just like that post about abyssum because Alien defends me in it, lol

aye, the valiant defense against the slight townread

[Tangrowth]

If we have to lynch someone in a boring "by default" fashion I would prefer to lynch Turnip Head.

I don't particularly want to do that though. I'm still thinking.

Let me post an updated reads list.

[Tangrowth]

I actually feel like... I don't know, something is off about Mac and Jay. I can't put my finger on it. But after sleeping on it last night I keep thinking all morning that maybe at least one if not both of them are scum. Their interactions with each other are weird.

[Tangrowth]

Maybe I ought to not really engage all of that though. I have plenty of reasons to think Jay is town, and at least some reason to think Mac is town even if I have some serious doubts there.

[Tangrowth]

I don't like that I don't know where Jay's head is at. THAT's the problem. He's like... going too much with the tides of the thread. That's something I associated with scum Jay. Especially last night Jay just came in and said 'oh Russ is town'. He's been sort of doing that all game. He's more consensus than normal.

THAT'S what is bothering me about Jay.

[Tangrowth]

Like Jay maybe we just need to talk more and I need a rainbow list. I haven't been fully in your brain in too long.

[mention]JaggedJimmyJay[/mention]

Thanks.

[Tangrowth]

I really need to take a break from this game, or I will explode.

Reads list, then I'm gone.

[abyssum]

were you under the impression that my regularly asking people about their past mafia experiences was some kind of scum-hunting tactic? JaggedJimmyJay

this is a real question I want answered btw

[mention]Infected_alien8_[/mention] this is the post i was talking abt with the question aimed at Jay

there's a process that i can't explain super well but it's something i've seen town do a lot, where they get suspected or poked & they use it as an opportunity to try to fish out the thought process of the person doing the suspecting/poking. it's a thing where they grab onto a situation and try to use it to their advantage and try to get a quick read on the person engaging them. it's not impossible for mafia to do, i've just...seen it more out of town and i think it's more advantageous to town

and i don't believe this is a shading attempt because kyle actually townreads Jay pretty confidently

[Tangrowth]

aby, that reminds me. I also don't like Jay's treatment of Kyle. I actually think Kyle looks townier in all of that.

I feel like Jay is almost "fishing" for a suspect at times.

[abyssum]

aby, that reminds me. I also don't like Jay's treatment of Kyle. I actually think Kyle looks townier in all of that.

I feel like Jay is almost "fishing" for a suspect at times.

an interesting possibility

is this out of more recent pages or just the earlier ones?

[Tangrowth]

aby, that reminds me. I also don't like Jay's treatment of Kyle. I actually think Kyle looks townier in all of that.

I feel like Jay is almost "fishing" for a suspect at times.

an interesting possibility

is this out of more recent pages or just the earlier ones?

His treatment of Kyle specifically.

his read of Russ seems too undeveloped, could be TMI.

I really just need to ISO him, but yeah.

I'll get back to you either way. Give me a minute.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don't like that I don't know where Jay's head is at. THAT's the problem. He's like... going too much with the tides of the thread. That's something I associated with scum Jay. Especially last night Jay just came in and said 'oh Russ is town'. He's been sort of doing that all game. He's more consensus than normal.

THAT'S what is bothering me about Jay.

I am not going with the tides of the thread. I am the tides of the thread.

That is not meant to be a token KOFM statement. That is a statement of reality.

[Tangrowth]

Here's what it is. I somewhat get the impression that Jay and Mac are looking for scum. I'm looking for town.

I feel like that's normal for Mac. Not for town Jay. Normal for scum Jay.

That said, these are all just like... impressions from percolations of thoughts in my mind. I'm not casing Jay, nor am I saying we should lynch him. We shouldn't blindly trust him as town though. Town has been burned by scum Jay way too many times here for that.

[Tangrowth]

I don't like that I don't know where Jay's head is at. THAT's the problem. He's like... going too much with the tides of the thread. That's something I associated with scum Jay. Especially last night Jay just came in and said 'oh Russ is town'. He's been sort of doing that all game. He's more consensus than normal.

THAT'S what is bothering me about Jay.

I am not going with the tides of the thread. I am the tides of the thread.

That is not meant to be a token KOFM statement. That is a statement of reality.

Oh lower your ego for once Christ's sake.

[Tangrowth]

Spoiler: show

One note: given the generally positive vibes I am getting from the most active core of play so far, I am finding the "null" players to be, by default, more suspicious than null. At this point if I have no concrete reason to see someone as a civilian or a mafioso, that's a bad thing.

I'll agree with that although I am actively searching for a deepwolf.

That's fair. I'd expect at least one.

This is the second post now that you've made that pinged me, Jay.

Why would you expect at least one?

This doesn't sound like something town!Jay would say at all.

I hate it.

You don't always have the clearest perception of what a "town!Jay" would say. I am not a press-button plastic toy with some revolving cycle of statements. We're all dynamic here.

The game has been active enough, and with a diverse enough set of contributors to that activity, that probability alone suggests at least one of them isn't a civilian. It's pretty unlikely the mafia team is exactly "DharmaHelper, Turnip Head, and Marmot" for example. There aren't many people left who've given little discernible effort.

What are you, discrediting me now?

I disagree somewhat. Why can't the scum team just be DH, TH, or Marmot? Or DH, Russ, and Luna? Why is that so unlikely, Mr. POE?

No, I'm telling you why your mindset is wrong and why you should adapt it.

To the spectator, the scum team "can" be anything. It's a question of math. It simply isn't likely to be that exact set of people, already isolated with complete perfection right here in Day 0/1, by mere production of post count or reads. If it is, then that's great. We'll definitely win. It's rarely so easy as that.

I'm returning to this.

I think Jay was right here, but upon reflection, I still feel like he was discrediting me here. He said "you don't always have the clearest perception of what a town!Jay would say".

And to that I say I was the ONLY one that knew you were scum too late in Phenon: Origins.

And that's not the only example.

Yes I suspect you at points in games when we're both town but you can certainly understand why. You steamroll town when you're scum. You need to be evaluated as thoroughly as I do if not more so.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

aby, that reminds me. I also don't like Jay's treatment of Kyle. I actually think Kyle looks townier in all of that.

I feel like Jay is almost "fishing" for a suspect at times.

I'm not comfortable giving Kyle civilian credit for the content he has put in this thread. Apart from defending himself and making his typical alignment-neutral sillies, his relevant play has been very limited. We can play "that's Kyle being Kyle" all day, but I don't stand for that terrible mindset. It's exactly the mindset which deliberately pursues with the strategy he has openly employed for his duration on this website (the second time). He's approaching 100 posts, and I have certain expectations for 100 posts. There hasn't been anything that I can grab and say "okay, this is the civilian I have been looking for".

[Tangrowth]

aby, that reminds me. I also don't like Jay's treatment of Kyle. I actually think Kyle looks townier in all of that.

I feel like Jay is almost "fishing" for a suspect at times.

I'm not comfortable giving Kyle civilian credit for the content he has put in this thread. Apart from defending himself and making his typical alignment-neutral sillies, his relevant play has been very limited. We can play "that's Kyle being Kyle" all day, but I don't stand for that terrible mindset. It's exactly the mindset which deliberately pursues with the strategy he has openly employed for his duration on this website (the second time). He's approaching 100 posts, and I have certain expectations for 100 posts. There hasn't been anything that I can grab and say "okay, this is the civilian I have been looking for".

But his tone is pure AF, look at his back and forth with Colin this morning.

If you think that's scum Kyle I don't know what to say.

I feel like this is scum Jay autopilot hunting. Not town Jay trying to figure out whether someone is REALLY town or not hunting.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don't like that I don't know where Jay's head is at. THAT's the problem. He's like... going too much with the tides of the thread. That's something I associated with scum Jay. Especially last night Jay just came in and said 'oh Russ is town'. He's been sort of doing that all game. He's more consensus than normal.

THAT'S what is bothering me about Jay.

I am not going with the tides of the thread. I am the tides of the thread.

That is not meant to be a token KOFM statement. That is a statement of reality.

Oh lower your ego for once Christ's sake.

I know I'm annoying and that's great. I don't give a flying fuck. I don't give a flying fuck.

If I am being called a follower for making reads which in many cases started with me, then I am going to say my piece. Suffer it.

[Tangrowth]

[VOTE: JAGGEDJIMMYJAY] aubergine

[Tangrowth]

I don't like that I don't know where Jay's head is at. THAT's the problem. He's like... going too much with the tides of the thread. That's something I associated with scum Jay. Especially last night Jay just came in and said 'oh Russ is town'. He's been sort of doing that all game. He's more consensus than normal.

THAT'S what is bothering me about Jay.

I am not going with the tides of the thread. I am the tides of the thread.

That is not meant to be a token KOFM statement. That is a statement of reality.

Oh lower your ego for once Christ's sake.

I know I'm annoying and that's great. I don't give a flying fuck. I don't give a flying fuck.

If I am being called a follower for making reads which in many cases started with me, then I am going to say my piece. Suffer it.

Give me a new rainbow list.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

But his tone is pure AF, look at his back and forth with Colin this morning.

I just woke up. I don't know what you're referring to. I'll see it soon enough.

I feel like this is scum Jay autopilot hunting. Not town Jay trying to figure out whether someone is REALLY town or not hunting.

I am playing POE. I am not focusing my suspicions upon people who I think look like civilians. There's a group of people I trust the least right now, and I have spent all of Day 1 systematically working on all of those reads. You can see it in my votes, in my interrogations, and in my progressions.

[Tangrowth]

If Jay and/or Mac are scum we NEED to really start considering that now. I'm making sure this gets done.

There are reasons to town read nearly everyone right now except Marmot and Turnip Head maybe.

I'm fucking wrong about at least somebody, and I'm determined to figure out who it is.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Give me a new rainbow list.

You'll get it when I am damned well ready to give it.