DFS Mafia [ENDGAME]

[Infected_alien8_]

And they wouldn't make sense as being for example, top town/top mafia either, so I still don't understand what you mean

[Infected_alien8_]

Anyway, I'll keep doing my thing and scumhunting, but I do feel as though I have some illogical arguments pushing me into a corner here.

"You're not accepting the lies told about you, but when you were Town you admitted the truths about you were true" (which I just don't think makes sense)
"You're hedging and have 0 net suspicions" (which I've just proven false)
"Your neutral/slight reads have points both for town and mafia" (well, yes, they do, why is that weird?)

I just don't understand any of the points being raised against me at all, and I'm sorry if I'm being unreasonable or just not understanding any of it but none of it makes any sense to me

[Infected_alien8_]

Also I can go further into detail to break down russ' '0 net suspicion' thing too if you want, I already broke down 2 of his examples in my response to him but if it helps any of you I'll gladly do the rest

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I would say the most egregious examples in that reads list are Robot, Mac, and abyssum.

They're in 'slight' or 'neutral' for a reason though, it's because I'm conflicted and can see different sides to them.

Do you think it is ordinary for you to only have two secure civilian reads 2,000 posts into a game thread?

Another question:

You have taken issue with Russ's suspicion of you, suggesting that he isn't trying to see both sides. I have adopted a very similar perspective of you to Russ's, but I am one of the two people you're willing to trust at present. Why have I not earned your ire for the same reason Russ has?

[ColinIsCool]

gtg to work will respond when i get back, but in the meantime do your recent posts to me really represent your approach to and motivation behind making reads as a civ?

Are you asking if I'm asking these questions as a civ? Because if so, the answer's yes ... because I'm a civ. I'm not sure what in my posts even has the potential to look false, other than perhaps projecting my behavior onto you — I admit it's dangerous, but patterns in play exist for a reason.

no, it's actually the "townier than thou" attitude that i don't trust

the "everyone should be as civ as possible to avoid being lynched day 1 or 2 thing and the "your behavior doesn't give you townie points" thing.

those are things someone says when they're trying to find and justify lynching someone. they are not things someone says while they're trying to find and lynch mafia.

I don't understand a thing you're trying to say here.

I know I am town. I don't know you are town. Am I supposed to assume that you're more town than I am?

Furthermore, I never said "everyone should be as civ as possible," or anything close. And I also don't understand why you feel my line of inquiry is so illegitimate that it means I must have ulterior motives.

Are you focused on finding scum right now, Kyle, or are you just focused on making me look bad?

"townier than thou" as in being all "hey wow you don't think or act this way? i think and act this way but you don't so you must be a bad guy, check out how good I am though, because of the things I do"

colin I am focused on trying to figure out your motivation and determine if you're mafia or not. to me it looks like you're lying about suspecting me because I don't think your behavior lines up with how I think it would if you were legitinately suspecting me of being mafia. It looks fake to me.

Yeah, that's not what I said. In fact, you attacked me earlier for suggesting you were acting similarly to how I act as scum, but this post ("hey wow you don't think or act this way? i think and act this way but you don't so you must be a bad guy, check out how good I am though, because of the things I do") is ... literally the opposite? You're just saying whatever you can to attempt to discredit my questioning of you.

It's U-Pick all over again. My vote is staying right on you today.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

It's U-Pick all over again.

Please expand on this parallel.

[Infected_alien8_]

I would say the most egregious examples in that reads list are Robot, Mac, and abyssum.

They're in 'slight' or 'neutral' for a reason though, it's because I'm conflicted and can see different sides to them.

Do you think it is ordinary for you to only have two secure civilian reads 2,000 posts into a game thread?

Another question:

You have taken issue with Russ's suspicion of you, suggesting that he isn't trying to see both sides. I have adopted a very similar perspective of you to Russ's, but I am one of the two people you're willing to trust at present. Why have I not earned your ire for the same reason Russ has?

Because I feel like you're trying to sort me, you're interrogating me and engaging with me and listening to me, like right now, like earlier when you thanked me for digging it up and said you'd consider it, like when you were asking M Plus 7 for my meta on postcount. You've seen arguments against me and bought into them - I don't think that makes you scum, because the way russ painted my posts I can see why you'd find it convincing, just like I can see why colin found it convincing. But now that I presented my counter point, it feels like you're listening and reevaluating. Russ isn't. He didn't even respond to my response, he just said it doesn't hold water and said I was only suspecting him because he was suspecting me.

And before all that, you hadn't responded to any of what Russ had said yet when I was accussing russ of having an agenda, so that's why my posts didn't include you in the post

[Infected_alien8_]

Oh, and to answer your first question, yes, I'd say that's ordinary for me.

[ColinIsCool]

Jay:

I think it's possible Kyle is town, although his argument right now reminds me most of his last-lynch offensive against juliets in U-Pick. It was based on a confirmed-false possibility of her having been recruited that most people didn't pick up on as confirmed false, but Kyle used Olympic-level mental gymnastics to try and get her to look bad ... I feel the same way right now because I truly don't understand what he's accusing me of.

[ColinIsCool]

Kyle's level of focus toward me versus anything else in this monster thread is perhaps forgivable in that a civ is going to notice where they're mentioned more, but it also doesn't feel to me like hunting. It's defense qua offense.

[Lunalee]

I like MP's colossal post outlining his stance on everyone.
I dislike Infected alien's colossal post explaining why he hasn't been hedgy with his opinions.

[Infected_alien8_]

I like MP's colossal post outlining his stance on everyone.
I dislike Infected alien's colossal post explaining why he hasn't been hedgy with his opinions.

Why do you dislike it?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Russ isn't. He didn't even respond to my response, he just said it doesn't hold water and said I was only suspecting him because he was suspecting me.

This is something [mention]Russtifinko[/mention] should talk about. Please describe in greater detail why you weren't sold by alien's responses.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Jay:

I think it's possible Kyle is town, although his argument right now reminds me most of his last-lynch offensive against juliets in U-Pick. It was based on a confirmed-false possibility of her having been recruited that most people didn't pick up on as confirmed false, but Kyle used Olympic-level mental gymnastics to try and get her to look bad ... I feel the same way right now because I truly don't understand what he's accusing me of.

I don't know that I see "Olympic-level mental gymnastics" from Kyle in this thread. I don't entirely know what he's doing either, but this parallel strikes me as a reach.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I like MP's colossal post outlining his stance on everyone.
I dislike Infected alien's colossal post explaining why he hasn't been hedgy with his opinions.

I like Lunalee drawing this distinction between two colossal posts, regardless of which one she likes more.

[ColinIsCool]

Jay:

I think it's possible Kyle is town, although his argument right now reminds me most of his last-lynch offensive against juliets in U-Pick. It was based on a confirmed-false possibility of her having been recruited that most people didn't pick up on as confirmed false, but Kyle used Olympic-level mental gymnastics to try and get her to look bad ... I feel the same way right now because I truly don't understand what he's accusing me of.

I don't know that I see "Olympic-level mental gymnastics" from Kyle in this thread. I don't entirely know what he's doing either, but this parallel strikes me as a reach.

Could be. But how I felt reading him there is how I feel reading him here — it doesn't make sense, and it's distorted, and it feels that Kyle would have to know that.

[Infected_alien8_]

I think M Plus 7 might be changing in my mind. I've quite liked his content as of late and he does seem to be genuinely reassessing people lately. His progression on me didn't feel forced and the apparent meta he has of posting much less as Town is fairly compelling.

I still don't see his dogpees as genuine though. It just doesn't read genuine to me at all. I don't want to tunnel him, especially since new arguments have come up, but I just don't see the fire in them at all.

I don't know, maybe I'm just doing what aby said and his dogpees lack the fire because last time I saw them I knew they were real.

Another hedgy read here but I'm on the fence with him right now.

[Infected_alien8_]

I like MP's colossal post outlining his stance on everyone.
I dislike Infected alien's colossal post explaining why he hasn't been hedgy with his opinions.

I like Lunalee drawing this distinction between two colossal posts, regardless of which one she likes more.

Walk me through why you like it?

[Infected_alien8_]

I think M Plus 7 might be changing in my mind. I've quite liked his content as of late and he does seem to be genuinely reassessing people lately. His progression on me didn't feel forced and the apparent meta he has of posting much less as Town is fairly compelling.

I still don't see his dogpees as genuine though. It just doesn't read genuine to me at all. I don't want to tunnel him, especially since new arguments have come up, but I just don't see the fire in them at all.

I don't know, maybe I'm just doing what aby said and his dogpees lack the fire because last time I saw them I knew they were real.

Another hedgy read here but I'm on the fence with him right now.

posting much less as Mafia*

[Infected_alien8_]

Jay would you say despite his fluff/offtopic posts he's still outside his range as Mafia in terms of post count?

[Lunalee]

I like MP's colossal post outlining his stance on everyone.
I dislike Infected alien's colossal post explaining why he hasn't been hedgy with his opinions.

Why do you dislike it?

It is very defensive. Scum is more likely to play on the defensive, which makes me think you could be scum.

[Infected_alien8_]

I like MP's colossal post outlining his stance on everyone.
I dislike Infected alien's colossal post explaining why he hasn't been hedgy with his opinions.

Why do you dislike it?

It is very defensive. Scum is more likely to play on the defensive, which makes me think you could be scum.

Jay asked me to do that though.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I like MP's colossal post outlining his stance on everyone.
I dislike Infected alien's colossal post explaining why he hasn't been hedgy with his opinions.

I like Lunalee drawing this distinction between two colossal posts, regardless of which one she likes more.

Walk me through why you like it?

It's a bit of a soul read. Lunalee has been trying to keep the pace in this high-octane thread environment, and I appreciate the brevity and conciseness of her presentation there. It's a take-it-or-leave-it read, and distinguishes one shiny, sparkly Hugh Jass post from a different shiny, sparkly Hugh Jass post.

[Infected_alien8_]

I like MP's colossal post outlining his stance on everyone.
I dislike Infected alien's colossal post explaining why he hasn't been hedgy with his opinions.

I like Lunalee drawing this distinction between two colossal posts, regardless of which one she likes more.

Walk me through why you like it?

It's a bit of a soul read. Lunalee has been trying to keep the pace in this high-octane thread environment, and I appreciate the brevity and conciseness of her presentation there. It's a take-it-or-leave-it read, and distinguishes one shiny, sparkly Hugh Jass post from a different shiny, sparkly Hugh Jass post.

So you think the fact it isn't an elaborate read and just a simple 'this is what I think' is good?

Why?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Jay would you say despite his fluff/offtopic posts he's still outside his range as Mafia in terms of post count?

No, I don't believe MP is outside his range. I might be willing to believe that he believes he is outside his range. I might have felt differently a few weeks ago, but I have to adapt my perspectives for a guy who posted such an insane number of times in those two MU games (even if as a civilian). To put those numbers in perspective, I believe a four-digit post count in a game has only been achieved five times or so on this website (twice by me, once by Ricochet, once by Sloonei, and once by Golden). MP put up two grand twice in a row, and that means the baseline expectation needs to change some undefined amount.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

So you think the fact it isn't an elaborate read and just a simple 'this is what I think' is good?

Why?

Tone. The brief nature of the post seems a deliberate contrast to the topic matter -- a concise post to describe two massive posts.

[Lunalee]

In this case, I'm hedging, I admit that. But my posts don't have a net worth of 0, my slip discussion wasn't derailing the thread, my only read wasn't on you. These points are all factually incorrect.

If you could point to reads you presented in this thread before it was initially pointed out that you were hedging (I believe either MP or I made the first suggestion) in which you took a conclusive stance without a disclaimer -- that'd be something you ought to do. Dig up the quotes. Your read on MP, to my memory, is the glaring exception to that trend.

[mention]Infected_alien8_[/mention] Oh, I see this now. You definitely delivered on this request. I rescind some of my suspicion on you.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Actually Turnip Head did it once too if I recall correctly.

[Infected_alien8_]

So you think the fact it isn't an elaborate read and just a simple 'this is what I think' is good?

Why?

Tone. The brief nature of the post seems a deliberate contrast to the topic matter -- a concise post to describe two massive posts.

So you think Mafia doesn't make a post that isn't about the topic matter? Sorry, I'm not following you here at all

[JaggedJimmyJay]

So you think the fact it isn't an elaborate read and just a simple 'this is what I think' is good?

Why?

Tone. The brief nature of the post seems a deliberate contrast to the topic matter -- a concise post to describe two massive posts.

So you think Mafia doesn't make a post that isn't about the topic matter? Sorry, I'm not following you here at all

It's a tone read. I think she sounded frank. Frank is usually a good thing. it doesn't make her a confirmed civilian, but I appreciated the look.

[Infected_alien8_]

Also Jay can you walk me through your flip on Mac exactly?

[Infected_alien8_]

So you think the fact it isn't an elaborate read and just a simple 'this is what I think' is good?

Why?

Tone. The brief nature of the post seems a deliberate contrast to the topic matter -- a concise post to describe two massive posts.

So you think Mafia doesn't make a post that isn't about the topic matter? Sorry, I'm not following you here at all

It's a tone read. I think she sounded frank. Frank is usually a good thing. it doesn't make her a confirmed civilian, but I appreciated the look.

Okay, thanks

[Kylemii]

it's not important to be town-read until like day 3.

I am going to officially scold you for saying this. You are scolded. Bad Kyle. *whacks with newspaper roll*

This doesn't make you more suspicious. I just recoil from this strategy as though it's spotted with smallpox.

doesn't bother me. i'll stop being the second mouse when it stops getting me cheese

i'd also like to point out that I'm not even really even filtering in this game. winning this game is more important to me than living a long time. if I get killed early for sticking out then i can spend more time playing smash bros, and if my actions lead to a victory i will be rank one again and i can finally retire from mafia forever

[Infected_alien8_]

Kyle and Colin feel like town vs town

[ColinIsCool]

Easter Mafia lasted until Day 6 and had roughly 4,300 posts. Day 1 has yet to end yet here and we're at just under 2,000. Oof.

[abyssum]

colin...... are those really things that you believe?

This also pings me because it's like asking a question for the sake of it. I don't understand what answer he'd get from that that would be useful.

i think there are pretty obvious reasons why you would ask something like this.

What reasons?

if you think something could potentially not be genuine, trying to get somebody to defend and validate their own thoughts is a good way to further assess that. i'm kind of confused as to why you think there isn't merit to these kinds of questions

[abyssum]

yikes that's a lot of new posts

i need to stop doing things

[Lunalee]

I don't feel good about an Infected Alien lynch today. He has been engaging the thread and seems to be trying to learn the tone of this site while attempting to figure out who may be bad. And I don't blame him for it. [mention]M Plus 7[/mention] , [mention]JaggedJimmyJay[/mention] [mention]Russtifinko[/mention] do you have any suspicions other than Alien?

[Infected_alien8_]

colin...... are those really things that you believe?

This also pings me because it's like asking a question for the sake of it. I don't understand what answer he'd get from that that would be useful.

i think there are pretty obvious reasons why you would ask something like this.

What reasons?

if you think something could potentially not be genuine, trying to get somebody to defend and validate their own thoughts is a good way to further assess that. i'm kind of confused as to why you think there isn't merit to these kinds of questions

I guess I just think, if I want someone to defend themself, I make a case against them and expect one. Asking the question essentially "are you lying?" feels like a pointless question, but I guess it can be used to trigger a defence. Just felt weird to me to do that.

[Infected_alien8_]

I don't feel good about an Infected Alien lynch today. He has been engaging the thread and seems to be trying to learn the tone of this site while attempting to figure out who may be bad. And I don't blame him for it. @M Plus 7 , @JaggedJimmyJay @Russtifinko do you have any suspicions other than Alien?

Not gonna lie this defence of me wins you over a bit to me lol

[Lunalee]

I don't feel good about an Infected Alien lynch today. He has been engaging the thread and seems to be trying to learn the tone of this site while attempting to figure out who may be bad. And I don't blame him for it. @M Plus 7 , @JaggedJimmyJay @Russtifinko do you have any suspicions other than Alien?

Not gonna lie this defence of me wins you over a bit to me lol

That wasn't my intent, but thanks.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Also Jay can you walk me through your flip on Mac exactly?

It's difficult to describe without telling the full tale of the history of MacDougall and JaggedJimmyJay in Mafia games (a tale stretching back about seven years now), but I will try to be brief:

Mac has a pretty keen understanding of the things that I look for and the strategies that I favor when I am a civilian, certainly better than most. Indeed, he has said more than once as a mafioso that his primary strategic objective was to fool me, because where I go the game tends to follow. A recent example can be seen in the side mission Assassination Classroom, a game which may have been my worst ever and simultaneously one of Mac's best on The Syndicate. He deserves a ton of credit for that. When my reads are shite and/or my strategic motions aren't leading me somewhere productive while Mac is not aligned with me, I have every expectation that he'd want to capitalize on that. He has said himself in this game that when my eye of suspicion falls upon players, their lifespans shorten:

@JaggedJimmyJay why did you say that Mac wouldn't like your stance on his slip if you didn't actually think it was a slip?

Also for anyone who's played with Mac, is his response to the slip thing telling at all? Would he have such a strong reaction as a Townie do you think?

I said he didn't know what my stance is, not that he wouldn't like it. I did say "and you hate it", meaning he hates not knowing, because I'm an asshole.

I will reiterate that the only thing I hate is that you have a scum read on me. The logistics of it do not affect my emotions. There are certain players that when their eye turns towards you, your lifespan in the game immediately becomes shorter so forgive me for being immediately in fight or flight mode under duress from you.

And if he knows my eye of suspicion is pointed in the wrong direction, he will attempt to reap the benefits. So I return to this post:

I changed my vote because I didn’t want a runaway on sprit for baddies to easily latch onto. I’m more comfortable with Kyle as an option too.

I at least agree with the first sentence here. I still have suspicions of sprityo, but don't care to see any single player dominating this poll right now. Competing wagons facilitate the best construction of data.

I agree, but I also am not used to seeing it play out.

Jay here's a proposition for you before you bounce.

In my opinion we have a larger than normal volume of active participation in this game. In my view active participation is good because it forces the scum to continue to refine their perspectives which eventually leads to a collapse in logic that's visible, sooner. Basically "they can't hide forever".

With that in mind, I am very tempted to lead us towards removing the lower participants sooner so that we can maintain this high level of participation and remove those who are not giving us the ability to leverage the aforementioned perspective. ie. Marmot, Dharmahelper and to a lesser extent Colin and Turnip Head.

and the follow-up directed against Turnip head, I find myself narrowing my gaze. The rationale for lynching Turnip Head looks like shit to me. Mac expects a red flip, and thinks that red flip will clear a bunch of people. The reasons he provided for those clears are weak. The more important problem is that if Turnip Head flips civilian, the promise of information is nill, and Mac doesn't care. So, the entire exercise looks bogus to me.

And I have to note that when he brought up the idea in the first place, he specifically brought it to my attention. This is important because in recent memory I have tended to favor POE lynches of this variety on Day 1 instead of the larger cases against larger contributors, because I don't believe civilians are good enough (any of them) to make effective Day 1 cases against active players on a consistent basis. Mac is well aware of my tendencies, and probably expects that I'd be willing to accept a Turnip Head lynch purely for POE. In many games he wouldn't be wrong about that.

If Turnip Head gets lynched though based upon a MacDougall and JaggedJimmyJay-driven charge, but then flips civilian -- which of the two of us takes more shit for it? It'd probably be me, because I'm the louder player and I draw tinfoil like turds draw flies. This is a scenario Mac would like to create.

I recognize the tinfoil nature of all this, as a lot of pieces have to come together for it to be sensible. I probably don't care about the idea for most players, but with MacDougall I am hyper-aware.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Easter Mafia lasted until Day 6 and had roughly 4,300 posts. Day 1 has yet to end yet here and we're at just under 2,000. Oof.

Easter was also by far the most active heist we've had on this site.

Welp.

[ColinIsCool]

essay about Mac

This makes too much sense.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don't feel good about an Infected Alien lynch today. He has been engaging the thread and seems to be trying to learn the tone of this site while attempting to figure out who may be bad. And I don't blame him for it. M Plus 7 , JaggedJimmyJay Russtifinko do you have any suspicions other than Alien?

I do. Add MacDougall to the red pile here and tell me what you think of these red folks.

[DharmaHelper]

On the one hand my dudes:

InfectedAlien is bad and despite the Mercy Rule, should be lynched.


On the other hand, my dudes:

InfectedAlien is good, and the mafia are foregoing the Mercy Rule to fuck him out of a game.

Which is it?

[Kylemii]

This posts pings me. It's like he's trying so hard to act like he doesn't care about being town-read that he's going too far the other way. I don't get why a Townie doesn't think it matters to be town-read until day 3. As a townie surely you care about being mislynched?

no, that's not really it.

i mean you don't get mislynched on day 1 or 2 just for looking a little suspicious that's incorrect.

you get lynched for being the most suspicious (typically), but you get nightkilled for being the least suspicious (also typically) the only times I remember ever being killed early were games in which I'd been widely town-read for one reason or another. enforcing a meta that keeps me within the light orange to light green space means reducing death anxiety and allows me to focus on the actual gameplay. that all gets thrown out around the end of phase 2 when shit gets real and there's tangible evidence to work with.

for the most part if i die in any game within the first two phases i take that as a sign of a personal gameplay failure.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

essay about Mac

This makes too much sense.

Too much sense to be accurate, or too much sense, damn that's insightful maaaaaaaan?

[ColinIsCool]

essay about Mac

This makes too much sense.

Too much sense to be accurate, or too much sense, damn that's insightful maaaaaaaan?

It's the rare case of a tinfoil done by someone else that I find myself agreeing with. I can see Mac doing all of that shit, and I'm not sure how to approach him here.

[Kylemii]

colin...... are those really things that you believe?

This also pings me because it's like asking a question for the sake of it. I don't understand what answer he'd get from that that would be useful.

i was asking the question for the sake of pointing out that i think that Colin was being disengenous, friendo.