Hogwarts Mafia - END

[Turnip Head]

Grats on the win Dharma, must feel good

[DharmaHelper]

Grats on the win Dharma, must feel good

It's my favorite game in 10 years, my favorite win in 10 years. Feels great.

[Owner of a Lonely Heart]

So remember when I said DH is playing different from last game and you guys didn't believe me?

I only subbed out because my grandfather was awfully sick, and then went on to pass away a few hours after I subbed out.

I guess 1 game meta can be a thing for me or at least I know have an exhibit A.

I guess part of me wants to take some credit for shaping how DH played.

But yeah, he was a bit more aggro or less caring in some ways as compared to the previous game.

[Owner of a Lonely Heart]

Not sure, if I should congratulate you, DH, sure I put you as a light town at some point, but that was to appease the others, I was still hella suspicious of you and that's also why I jailkept you n1.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Disagree on the SKer.

I called DH the sker. I pointed out the kill discrepancy. I laughed about the idea of two odd night vigilantes.

People hear what they want to hear but the answer was right in front of the town the whole time.

I agree with you on the easy clears though. I love endgame when “everyone is obviously town.” That’s when the real paranoia sets in.

Which of course is not to say that DH didn’t earn his win but rather that there were sufficient clues that there was a serial killer for it to be considered.

[DharmaHelper]

So remember when I said DH is playing different from last game and you guys didn't believe me?

I only subbed out because my grandfather was awfully sick, and then went on to pass away a few hours after I subbed out.

I guess 1 game meta can be a thing for me or at least I know have an exhibit A.

I guess part of me wants to take some credit for shaping how DH played.

But yeah, he was a bit more aggro or less caring in some ways as compared to the previous game.

Sorry to hear about your grandfather.

You'll never get me to concede that you understand my meta or that I have a meta. You're still cool though

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think you do clear all of those things if you are in the game tbh. At least until it's too late. We never realised we were at DH LYLO on the day we lynched Jack for instance. I don't think anyone in their right mind could have known that.

You were my top suspect pre-poutanko lynch. I didn't give a shit about the potion.

I agree that no civilian was catching DH. The civilians had two vigilantes and the mafia had one. There were a crapload of kills. A SK wasn't necessary to explain them in the minds of anyone without bonus information. That just wasn't going to happen and I don't think a single civilian made an unforced mistake in this game which got in the way of catching DH. He wasn't getting caught.

[Owner of a Lonely Heart]

I discovered that reverse mind melds don't exist, as Long Con saying he melded with me didn't turn out to be the same alignment.

Poutanko was obvious to me, or just has a stark different playstyle than when town.

Jack and Inh, I couldn't make out if they usually played like that or if that was their personality. I read timmer town for personality thing or something I felt most people would say more often as town than mafia, but idk.

In hindsight, it looks like I had found a slip of the mind from Jack. Inh, I think I kind of ignored him, but I probably should have realized he was bad.

But yeah, you guys need to have graveyards over here when there aren't rez abilities in the game or when all the rez abilities are gone.

I ended up chatting with DDL about what my reads were as I was kind of still following the game near the end.

I guess the picture tell on kara was a personality picture not an alignment indicative thing. But I'm glad the popcorn eating tell might still be legit over here.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I am sorry for your loss, Owner.

[MacDougall]

I think you do clear all of those things if you are in the game tbh. At least until it's too late. We never realised we were at DH LYLO on the day we lynched Jack for instance. I don't think anyone in their right mind could have known that.

You were my top suspect pre-poutanko lynch. I didn't give a shit about the potion.

Yeah well maybe I shouldn't have been given, you know, I was a civ...

[Owner of a Lonely Heart]

So remember when I said DH is playing different from last game and you guys didn't believe me?

I only subbed out because my grandfather was awfully sick, and then went on to pass away a few hours after I subbed out.

I guess 1 game meta can be a thing for me or at least I know have an exhibit A.

I guess part of me wants to take some credit for shaping how DH played.

But yeah, he was a bit more aggro or less caring in some ways as compared to the previous game.

Sorry to hear about your grandfather.

You'll never get me to concede that you understand my meta or that I have a meta. You're still cool though

Oddly enough, you aren't the first 3p/indie that I've caught day 1 before. You are maybe the 4th one. But it does explain why you more in my face about defending yourself, as no one else particularly had your back. And since you were pressured so early, that might have prevented you from slipping up later. Or it's kind of like when a mafia dies day 1, but the team pulls together and wins later on, as that had no more room for error.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think you do clear all of those things if you are in the game tbh. At least until it's too late. We never realised we were at DH LYLO on the day we lynched Jack for instance. I don't think anyone in their right mind could have known that.

You were my top suspect pre-poutanko lynch. I didn't give a shit about the potion.

Yeah well maybe I shouldn't have been given, you know, I was a civ...

That you were. Had I been alive you'd have found the late game even more frustrating than you already did.

[Owner of a Lonely Heart]

Or it could be forum bias? Well, whatever it is, congrats on nearly fooling everyone.

[Sloonei]

I was certain Colin was bad right until the end.

[DharmaHelper]

Or it could be forum bias? Well, whatever it is, congrats on nearly fooling everyone.

Thanks, and I look forward to finding out the reason you suspect me the next game we play together

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think that catching an independent player purely on behavioral data is a very muddy endeavor since the primary motivator of behavioral change between games is the presence or lack of extra information (known teammates or unknown). The capacity to genuinely hunt for mafia is one of the most important benefits anti-civilian roles can enjoy -- it's as pronounced in games with multiple mafia teams (and in many cases renders those games outright unbalanced, which I would not say this game was).

[DharmaHelper]

I think that catching an independent player purely on behavioral data is a very muddy endeavor since the primary motivator of behavioral change between games is the presence or lack of extra information (known teammates or unknown). The capacity to genuinely hunt for mafia is one of the most important benefits anti-civilian roles can enjoy -- it's as pronounced in games with multiple mafia teams (and in many cases renders those games outright unbalanced, which I would not say this game was).

As a civ I want to catch the baddies so they don't kill me and I win. As an SK, like this game, I want to catch the baddies so they can't kill me and I win.

[Owner of a Lonely Heart]

I still couldn't believe all those cop checks that weren't questioned in "closed setup mafia game". I don't care what the check says; the game should not be mechanically solvable.

And there shouldn't be a way to be immune to death. (I guess Harry Potter lore would argue with me, but still, it doesn't feel right in a mafia game...imo.)

[Owner of a Lonely Heart]

I think that catching an independent player purely on behavioral data is a very muddy endeavor since the primary motivator of behavioral change between games is the presence or lack of extra information (known teammates or unknown). The capacity to genuinely hunt for mafia is one of the most important benefits anti-civilian roles can enjoy -- it's as pronounced in games with multiple mafia teams (and in many cases renders those games outright unbalanced, which I would not say this game was).

I didn't think he was an indie at the time. But he was playing differently in some regard. Generally, when I have caught 3p in the past, it has been for reading far into something that is generally read differently than how others are reading it. It is like they are trying too hard to push a world. Sometimes there is some proof or reason to it, but one first read through, no one else is seeing it that way.

[Owner of a Lonely Heart]

Or it could be forum bias? Well, whatever it is, congrats on nearly fooling everyone.

Thanks, and I look forward to finding out the reason you suspect me the next game we play together

I don't know if I'm playing here again. Yeah, I could have talked to dunya about it, but I was thinking of quitting a few times before the family emergency. I guess I'm of the opinion that I shouldn't need to talk to someone to get through a game.

[MacDougall]

I think you do clear all of those things if you are in the game tbh. At least until it's too late. We never realised we were at DH LYLO on the day we lynched Jack for instance. I don't think anyone in their right mind could have known that.

You were my top suspect pre-poutanko lynch. I didn't give a shit about the potion.

Yeah well maybe I shouldn't have been given, you know, I was a civ...

That you were. Had I been alive you'd have found the late game even more frustrating than you already did.

At what point did you realise I was a civ for sure?

[DharmaHelper]

I think you do clear all of those things if you are in the game tbh. At least until it's too late. We never realised we were at DH LYLO on the day we lynched Jack for instance. I don't think anyone in their right mind could have known that.

You were my top suspect pre-poutanko lynch. I didn't give a shit about the potion.

Yeah well maybe I shouldn't have been given, you know, I was a civ...

That you were. Had I been alive you'd have found the late game even more frustrating than you already did.

At what point did you realise I was a civ for sure?

Part 2 of the last host post.

[DharmaHelper]

Or it could be forum bias? Well, whatever it is, congrats on nearly fooling everyone.

Thanks, and I look forward to finding out the reason you suspect me the next game we play together

I don't know if I'm playing here again. Yeah, I could have talked to dunya about it, but I was thinking of quitting a few times before the family emergency. I guess I'm of the opinion that I shouldn't need to talk to someone to get through a game.

I hope its not anything I did. You're a fun player. All the best

[Owner of a Lonely Heart]

Or it could be forum bias? Well, whatever it is, congrats on nearly fooling everyone.

Thanks, and I look forward to finding out the reason you suspect me the next game we play together

I don't know if I'm playing here again. Yeah, I could have talked to dunya about it, but I was thinking of quitting a few times before the family emergency. I guess I'm of the opinion that I shouldn't need to talk to someone to get through a game.

I hope its not anything I did. You're a fun player. All the best

At this point, I don't know what triggered it. It could be you and inh, or it could have been something else. I guess somewhere I felt belittled or that my reads didn't matter or no one was listening or who knows what.

I guess it just seemed a bit rougher than what I'm used to or something.

[Owner of a Lonely Heart]

[mention]DharmaHelper[/mention] one thing to be aware of you were far too happy or not phased by multiple townies dying. Nutella had the correct townie response to multiple townies dying, but then you on the other hand "thought it to be good news". It's one thing to say it's good news about narrowing down suspicions, but when there's 1 to none mafia deaths and like 3 townies die, your mood is a dead give away.

Luckily for you, that didn't matter this game. But if I was alive and hadn't subbed out, that would have been maybe something I might have seen or looked at.

[Sloonei]

Or it could be forum bias? Well, whatever it is, congrats on nearly fooling everyone.

Thanks, and I look forward to finding out the reason you suspect me the next game we play together

I don't know if I'm playing here again. Yeah, I could have talked to dunya about it, but I was thinking of quitting a few times before the family emergency. I guess I'm of the opinion that I shouldn't need to talk to someone to get through a game.

I hope its not anything I did. You're a fun player. All the best

At this point, I don't know what triggered it. It could be you and inh, or it could have been something else. I guess somewhere I felt belittled or that my reads didn't matter or no one was listening or who knows what.

I guess it just seemed a bit rougher than what I'm used to or something.

Obviously you and I were never in this game at the same time and I’m sorry this was your experience of the game, and it’s unfortunate to have subbed in under these circumstances. I hope that you’ll give us another chance. I can only speak for myself, but in my time on the Syndicate I’ve felt like this community is one of the most respectful and inclusive of any I’ve come across, online or otherwise.

From a purely philosophical/strategic point of view, every single player’s voice and opinions matter just the same in the balance of the game. Things can’t be solved in full if we’re not all weighing in and hearing each other out, ideally speaking.

And I hope that your emergency has cleared up and all is well.

[Sloonei]

@DharmaHelper one thing to be aware of you were far too happy or not phased by multiple townies dying. Nutella had the correct townie response to multiple townies dying, but then you on the other hand "thought it to be good news". It's one thing to say it's good news about narrowing down suspicions, but when there's 1 to none mafia deaths and like 3 townies die, your mood is a dead give away.

Luckily for you, that didn't matter this game. But if I was alive and hadn't subbed out, that would have been maybe something I might have seen or looked at.

This was not a thing I paid any attention to, so things might have gone better if you stayed.

I never gave any thought to lynching DH because there was no chance at all he was a Death Eater. I wanted to catch them, and he was not one of them. Then I easentially gave myself up by opting to protect him rather than use my Thestral the night I died.

[poutanko]

I discovered that reverse mind melds don't exist, as Long Con saying he melded with me didn't turn out to be the same alignment.

Poutanko was obvious to me, or just has a stark different playstyle than when town.

Jack and Inh, I couldn't make out if they usually played like that or if that was their personality. I read timmer town for personality thing or something I felt most people would say more often as town than mafia, but idk.

In hindsight, it looks like I had found a slip of the mind from Jack. Inh, I think I kind of ignored him, but I probably should have realized he was bad.

But yeah, you guys need to have graveyards over here when there aren't rez abilities in the game or when all the rez abilities are gone.

I ended up chatting with DDL about what my reads were as I was kind of still following the game near the end.

I guess the picture tell on kara was a personality picture not an alignment indicative thing. But I'm glad the popcorn eating tell might still be legit over here.

That's legit, your pic tell too

I'm sorry to hear about your grandpa see ya in other game, Owner ~

[Owner of a Lonely Heart]

Obviously you and I were never in this game at the same time and I’m sorry this was your experience of the game, and it’s unfortunate to have subbed in under these circumstances. I hope that you’ll give us another chance. I can only speak for myself, but in my time on the Syndicate I’ve felt like this community is one of the most respectful and inclusive of any I’ve come across, online or otherwise.

From a purely philosophical/strategic point of view, every single player’s voice and opinions matter just the same in the balance of the game. Things can’t be solved in full if we’re not all weighing in and hearing each other out, ideally speaking.

And I hope that your emergency has cleared up and all is well.

My grandfather passed away at 91 years old. He had pneumonia, a stroke, and got a little bit better. But then landed back the hospital with double pneumonia and died in the evening of the same day. I got to see him some before he died. I went to his funeral, and I know he is in a better place right now.

I felt bad for you. Generally, I don't like to replace out as I know the chaos that I'll leave behind, and most times whoever subs into my slot can't fill the shoes as well or defend against whatever I previously said. I'm thankful that you didn't get mislynched though.

[Sloonei]

I’m pretty sure I was originally supposed to replace nova. I appreciate him being killed before that could happen because I did not want to be bad.

[DharmaHelper]

@DharmaHelper one thing to be aware of you were far too happy or not phased by multiple townies dying. Nutella had the correct townie response to multiple townies dying, but then you on the other hand "thought it to be good news". It's one thing to say it's good news about narrowing down suspicions, but when there's 1 to none mafia deaths and like 3 townies die, your mood is a dead give away.

Luckily for you, that didn't matter this game. But if I was alive and hadn't subbed out, that would have been maybe something I might have seen or looked at.

I'll take your word for it.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

At this point, I don't know what triggered it. It could be you and inh, or it could have been something else. I guess somewhere I felt belittled or that my reads didn't matter or no one was listening or who knows what.

I guess it just seemed a bit rougher than what I'm used to or something.

Something I have experienced a number of times when playing my first or second game on another site is the feeling that nobody is listening to a word I say. Indeed, it might on some level reflect reality -- not that nobody is listening, but that the regulars on the site don't think my reads are as informed as they need to be based upon whoever's metas to be trusted as valid (and on multiple occasions it has been to their detriment: I was right and they were wrong). I think you might have been in a very similar position in this case. Nearly everyone else has played with DharmaHelper many times over, and in that time there has developed nuanced ideas about how he plays and who he is as a player. And sometimes that can be blinding instead of informative, as it may have been here. Perhaps the regulars were blinded to a detail that you were able to pick up because you haven't already built years of biases.

With repetition these frustrations tend to subside though, because people become more accustomed to the approach of the newcomer. Indeed, when I was new to The Syndicate nobody listened to a damned thing I had to say. I remember feeling like I was talking to brick walls in Economics Mafia.

Please know though that it there is never an intent to disrespect or belittle you. I have seen first hand the kind of great Mafia play you are capable of, and I don't think it would surprise anyone here to see you do more great things. I hope you can find the energy to give us another try, because we're a better community for having you a part of it. Every new idea and perspective enriches a game, and every new friend enriches a site.

[Sloonei]

Obviously you and I were never in this game at the same time and I’m sorry this was your experience of the game, and it’s unfortunate to have subbed in under these circumstances. I hope that you’ll give us another chance. I can only speak for myself, but in my time on the Syndicate I’ve felt like this community is one of the most respectful and inclusive of any I’ve come across, online or otherwise.

From a purely philosophical/strategic point of view, every single player’s voice and opinions matter just the same in the balance of the game. Things can’t be solved in full if we’re not all weighing in and hearing each other out, ideally speaking.

And I hope that your emergency has cleared up and all is well.

My grandfather passed away at 91 years old. He had pneumonia, a stroke, and got a little bit better. But then landed back the hospital with double pneumonia and died in the evening of the same day. I got to see him some before he died. I went to his funeral, and I know he is in a better place right now.

I felt bad for you. Generally, I don't like to replace out as I know the chaos that I'll leave behind, and most times whoever subs into my slot can't fill the shoes as well or defend against whatever I previously said. I'm thankful that you didn't get mislynched though.

I’m sorry for your loss.

No sweat at all on the legacy. I only received suspicion late in the game when the suspect pool was wearing thin, and I hadn’t done a whole lot to clear my own name. You done good.

[DharmaHelper]

At this point, I don't know what triggered it. It could be you and inh, or it could have been something else. I guess somewhere I felt belittled or that my reads didn't matter or no one was listening or who knows what.

I guess it just seemed a bit rougher than what I'm used to or something.

Something I have experienced a number of times when playing my first or second game on another site is the feeling that nobody is listening to a word I say. Indeed, it might on some level reflect reality -- not that nobody is listening, but that the regulars on the site don't think my reads are as informed as they need to be based upon whoever's metas to be trusted as valid (and on multiple occasions it has been to their detriment: I was right and they were wrong). I think you might have been in a very similar position in this case. Nearly everyone else has played with DharmaHelper many times over, and in that time there has developed nuanced ideas about how he plays and who he is as a player. And sometimes that can be blinding instead of informative, as it may have been here. Perhaps the regulars were blinded to a detail that you were able to pick up because you haven't already built years of biases.

With repetition these frustrations tend to subside though, because people become more accustomed to the approach of the newcomer. Indeed, when I was new to The Syndicate nobody listened to a damned thing I had to say. I remember feeling like I was talking to brick walls in Economics Mafia.

Please know though that it there is never an intent to disrespect or belittle you. I have seen first hand the kind of great Mafia play you are capable of, and I don't think it would surprise anyone here to see you do more great things. I hope you can find the energy to give us another try, because we're a better community for having you a part of it. Every new idea and perspective enriches a game, and every new friend enriches a site.

It can be tough to get your foot in the door and jarring to play with people who have established a tone/style/flavor/routine/culture of how they play. I have no doubts if Owner sticks around and hangs a bit, they'll find their groove.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

At what point did you realise I was a civ for sure?

When the game ended.

[MacDougall]

At what point did you realise I was a civ for sure?

When the game ended.

Lol surely you must have at least realised when Poutanko died?

[Owner of a Lonely Heart]

@DharmaHelper one thing to be aware of you were far too happy or not phased by multiple townies dying. Nutella had the correct townie response to multiple townies dying, but then you on the other hand "thought it to be good news". It's one thing to say it's good news about narrowing down suspicions, but when there's 1 to none mafia deaths and like 3 townies die, your mood is a dead give away.

Luckily for you, that didn't matter this game. But if I was alive and hadn't subbed out, that would have been maybe something I might have seen or looked at.

This was not a thing I paid any attention to, so things might have gone better if you stayed.

I never gave any thought to lynching DH because there was no chance at all he was a Death Eater. I wanted to catch them, and he was not one of them. Then I easentially gave myself up by opting to protect him rather than use my Thestral the night I died.

The night in question was the night you died so maybe or maybe not.

Yikes. although that is good news since it actually narrows who could be Jack's teammate pretty significantly.

The yikes was good, but the rest of it was not a "defeated townie" or "depressed voice". DH did say though that was just about untouchable at this point.

Well. I was wrong about Quin then. At least I was right about Kara.

I assume vigs killed Quin and Kara and Mafia killed Sloonei because he had his solving hat on maybe. Or a redirection.

Leaves Colin standing out pretty starkly now.

This seemed okay from Mac. I was maybe giving him a slight town read for it.

on another tangent, I kind of thought this seemed scummy.

Forest of Death

The students formed searching parties to find Jack. Someone saw the vapor-thing which was what was left of him go to the Forbidden Forest.

(Actually this is the kind of thing teachers should be doing, but have adults ever been useful in this universe?)

The search parties entered the forest. It was full of the most interesting magical creatures, from centaurs, to giant spiders, to unicorns. But the most dangerous creatures in there were certainly the humans.

It wasn't long before a scream was heard. One of the nearby search parties, formed by two students, moved to the direction of the scream. In there, they saw the body of Kara.

- What... just happened?
- You are about to join her. Avada Kedavra.

Sloonei fell to the ground, dead.

Quin, who had heard the scream, grabbed his invisibility cloak. He had to hide away and escape. If whoever was killing people was looking for the cloak, he had to protect it.

But someone had seen him first. And his artifact was something worth killing for.

Quin disappeared for the last time.

karavalenge, Quin and Sloonei (Hogwarts Students) were killed during the night.

Day 6 Begins!

....Well fuck.

[VOTE: colin] aubergine

Clear sign of defeat or frustration vs. DH's post that seems kind of happy

[DharmaHelper]

Fair

[Owner of a Lonely Heart]

Aww, I just realized I could have used the 3p make a lot of posts tell...derp...missed opportunity.

[DharmaHelper]

Aww, I just realized I could have used the 3p make a lot of posts tell...derp...missed opportunity.

Nutella was 3P all along

[DharmaHelper]

Mega Man, Outpost and now Hogwarts mafia. Ya boi out here GRINDING. This is the DH Era

[DharmaHelper]

Oh and DFS mafia. Praise be to laid back shitpost mode

[poutanko]

Aww, I just realized I could have used the 3p make a lot of posts tell...derp...missed opportunity.

There will be another opportunity (hopefully not me as the 3p, I like the popcorn too much)

[mention]Lunalee[/mention]You played well for 1st time cop. Checking those not high on sus list is okay. Less likely for them (if they're scum) to use an "active" to fool your result if they think they're not under a threat of getting copped. It's understandable too why people sussed you for not clearing up those high on sus list as it could be seen as an attempt to keep the confusion high. Just do what you think is the best decision and ignore the rest. Tell them to take it or leave it No one will always be right. Sometimes what you did is the right one, sometimes it's the other one who's right. If you think you're right, just do it.

[DharmaHelper]

Yeah being a cop is hard. Having to balance who you suspect with the popular suspects can be challenging but Luna played the role well.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

At what point did you realise I was a civ for sure?

When the game ended.

Lol surely you must have at least realised when Poutanko died?

No. I still thought six mafia members was reasonably possible, and you had pushed the counterwagon.

[poutanko]

Ye, if people being like
"Why didn't you do it like xxxxxxx??"
"You should do xxxxx"
"That's weird"

Instead of trying to justify your action, be more like
"Sit down kids"

[MacDougall]

At what point did you realise I was a civ for sure?

When the game ended.

Lol surely you must have at least realised when Poutanko died?

No. I still thought six mafia members was reasonably possible, and you had pushed the counterwagon.

I wish you were right. It would have been impressive haha.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Ok so I believe I have dumped all information you guys might want to know. I'm tired so I'll wait until tomorrow to respond to questions and do game comentary.

Feel free to make praises and criticizes to the game, I don't think there is a perfectly balanced role madness game, but I tried. I will reply to everything tomorrow.

you did an amazing job!!! just looking at the list of night actions I'm stressed out lol, it's really an incredible feat that you handled this game by yourself and sorted everything out.

I've been through worse. Favorites 4, one of my first games, had 58 players, bigger roles, 24 hour phases and some very poor communication between me and the other host ( @Soneji ). After that mayhem, everything feels like a cakewalk. It's just a matter of having a template and being organized.

Will I ever escape the shame of this?

It's not a shame brah, that game was super fun.

For me it's more like the initial action scene of a movie where the hero tries to invade the villain's lair but gets his ass kicked. So he has to start over and train so he has a chance of going there again some day.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Dragon D. Luffy What would have happened if a civ or a member of the mafia had gotten all 3 hallows?


Also, mid-late to late game, everyone forgot about the Hallows in the thread which was pretty chill for me as far as not having to explain shit.

Nothing. Having all hallows doesn't do anything unless you are the kind of edgelord character who believes they do. Hence the master of death thing being based on "confidence".

Also I was facepalming hard on the later. He last mention of the word "hallow" in the thread was before Quin's death. Town played well in some senses, but you guys kind of botchered on game speculation. You didn't care who killed Quin, you didn't care about hallows, you didn't wonder who had killed poutanko. That cryptic text in the setup about hallows wasn't just for show, you know.

Also I found it weird how nobody ever asked me about a 3P. In Fire Emblem, the game this is inspired on, people asked on like Day 0, so we knew there was no indie. If you had asked me here, I wouldn't have said "yes", but I'd be forced to give an evasive answer that would have given it away. And I was expecting that to happen. I wasn't joking when I said I don't lie: the entire setup is written to allow room for an indie. The use of "guilty" instead of "mafia", the civilian wincon saying "eliminate all threats to Hogwarts" (implying there could be more than one threat), even Quin's death implies he was killed for the cloak.

[MacDougall]

I think we all assumed there was an indie but overlooked the fact that it might have been a last man standing one.