Mafia: A World Asunder - GAME THREAD [Day 13]

[Epignosis]

I adopted the Karma Chameleon thing because I was the KC for a couple of phases. I kept changing win conditions and powers. I was The Darkness, then The Hunger (allied with Jagged Blade), then KC (who had to survive), then I found a horse, then I was the "Avatar of Long Con" and needed to be dead to win and the civilians needed to win.

Long Con seriously asked me if I had a plan to win.

If you did, it sucked.

I couldn't have a plan. By the time I ended up working for the civilians, the pooch had been screwed.

[MacDougall]

Was this MacDougall's actual role?

Kraken - Movement rate of 6 in the water, and 1 on land. Can still move 1 land square after 4 water squares. Knows who is in any square containing water, and has -5 votes while he is in the water.

Yeah it was.

This in the beginning crippled any hope the civilians could have possibly had from the outset.

Why make a mafia member all but immune to lynches?

There were days I was a revealed member of Mafia, with my role known, that I could have been lynched and wasn't. I was also within the kill range of Mafia many many times.

Oh and also it seemed to have got balanced by the fact that our entire team got infodumped so what does it matter.

You sound like I'm accusing you.

I'm not.

I'm saying it's a badly written role for anybody to have (especially mafia).

Nobody should ever have -5 votes- especially mafia.

The fact that I outed your entire team and you still won should demonstrate that.

I am just saying that there were many opportunities for me to be killed or lynched that were not taken. My role didn't make me impervious to death which means that the in game mechanics only served to make me a difficult mafioso to contend with rather than an impossible one. I should have been lynched as soon as DharmaHelper noticed I was the Kraken.

Also it's not as though it was "oh I have -5 votes this game is gonna be easy". I ended up having to make 950 posts to get the job done. It was a slog.

I don't mean that- what I mean is that once a mafia member is "caught," that mafia member should be able to be removed via the lynch poll.

That was never going to happen, because it meant needing 5(!) more voters on you than someone else in a given lynch. Yes, you could have been killed, but how many people ventured near the water knowing the Kraken was there? I went to the water one time in the very beginning and that was it.

You are almost impossible to lynch, especially as the civilians numbers dropped and the independents had the run of the show. There was no way for you to lose.

Have civilians ever won one of these "A World" games by the way? I know the Circle of Decay won last time. I don't know about games on other sites.

I was in kill range of members of the other team at least 5 or 6 times.

[nutella]

Hahahaha holy shit...

CFD Wolbre?

Do it bitch

...That was this game? It's been.... thirty years.....

[MacDougall]

Epi don't poo on our win.

[DharmaHelper]

If the next game is LMS with six or more maps and utter chaos every phase I'll play.

[Epignosis]

Yeah it was.

This in the beginning crippled any hope the civilians could have possibly had from the outset.

Why make a mafia member all but immune to lynches?

There were days I was a revealed member of Mafia, with my role known, that I could have been lynched and wasn't. I was also within the kill range of Mafia many many times.

Oh and also it seemed to have got balanced by the fact that our entire team got infodumped so what does it matter.

You sound like I'm accusing you.

I'm not.

I'm saying it's a badly written role for anybody to have (especially mafia).

Nobody should ever have -5 votes- especially mafia.

The fact that I outed your entire team and you still won should demonstrate that.

I am just saying that there were many opportunities for me to be killed or lynched that were not taken. My role didn't make me impervious to death which means that the in game mechanics only served to make me a difficult mafioso to contend with rather than an impossible one. I should have been lynched as soon as DharmaHelper noticed I was the Kraken.

Also it's not as though it was "oh I have -5 votes this game is gonna be easy". I ended up having to make 950 posts to get the job done. It was a slog.

I don't mean that- what I mean is that once a mafia member is "caught," that mafia member should be able to be removed via the lynch poll.

That was never going to happen, because it meant needing 5(!) more voters on you than someone else in a given lynch. Yes, you could have been killed, but how many people ventured near the water knowing the Kraken was there? I went to the water one time in the very beginning and that was it.

You are almost impossible to lynch, especially as the civilians numbers dropped and the independents had the run of the show. There was no way for you to lose.

Have civilians ever won one of these "A World" games by the way? I know the Circle of Decay won last time. I don't know about games on other sites.

I was in kill range of members of the other team at least 5 or 6 times.

Doesn't negate my point. Most civilians don't have a kill.

Civilians shouldn't have to depend on mafia eliminating mafia to win.

[DharmaHelper]

Hahahaha holy shit...

CFD Wolbre?

Do it bitch

You did it, bitch

[MacDougall]

If the next game is LMS with six or more maps and utter chaos every phase I'll play.

Just play U-Pick

[Epignosis]

Epi don't poo on our win.

I'm not. I already said this. I'm criticizing the setup.

[Jackofhearts2005]

I wanna know what all the polls and places and secrets did and how come I didn’t see Epi.

[DharmaHelper]

Spoiler: show

This in the beginning crippled any hope the civilians could have possibly had from the outset.

Why make a mafia member all but immune to lynches?

There were days I was a revealed member of Mafia, with my role known, that I could have been lynched and wasn't. I was also within the kill range of Mafia many many times.

Oh and also it seemed to have got balanced by the fact that our entire team got infodumped so what does it matter.

You sound like I'm accusing you.

I'm not.

I'm saying it's a badly written role for anybody to have (especially mafia).

Nobody should ever have -5 votes- especially mafia.

The fact that I outed your entire team and you still won should demonstrate that.

I am just saying that there were many opportunities for me to be killed or lynched that were not taken. My role didn't make me impervious to death which means that the in game mechanics only served to make me a difficult mafioso to contend with rather than an impossible one. I should have been lynched as soon as DharmaHelper noticed I was the Kraken.

Also it's not as though it was "oh I have -5 votes this game is gonna be easy". I ended up having to make 950 posts to get the job done. It was a slog.

I don't mean that- what I mean is that once a mafia member is "caught," that mafia member should be able to be removed via the lynch poll.

That was never going to happen, because it meant needing 5(!) more voters on you than someone else in a given lynch. Yes, you could have been killed, but how many people ventured near the water knowing the Kraken was there? I went to the water one time in the very beginning and that was it.

You are almost impossible to lynch, especially as the civilians numbers dropped and the independents had the run of the show. There was no way for you to lose.

Have civilians ever won one of these "A World" games by the way? I know the Circle of Decay won last time. I don't know about games on other sites.

I was in kill range of members of the other team at least 5 or 6 times.

Doesn't negate my point. Most civilians don't have a kill.

Civilians shouldn't have to depend on mafia eliminating mafia to win.

IDK for sure but I think the votes were on the board when Mac Outted himself and I correctly guessed nobody would care.

[DharmaHelper]

Part of my role was that I saw the secrets/curses associated with items that I found and I found exactly zero items.

[Epignosis]

I had already predicted I would out the Jagged Blade and they would skate by.

[MacDougall]

This in the beginning crippled any hope the civilians could have possibly had from the outset.

Why make a mafia member all but immune to lynches?

There were days I was a revealed member of Mafia, with my role known, that I could have been lynched and wasn't. I was also within the kill range of Mafia many many times.

Oh and also it seemed to have got balanced by the fact that our entire team got infodumped so what does it matter.

You sound like I'm accusing you.

I'm not.

I'm saying it's a badly written role for anybody to have (especially mafia).

Nobody should ever have -5 votes- especially mafia.

The fact that I outed your entire team and you still won should demonstrate that.

I am just saying that there were many opportunities for me to be killed or lynched that were not taken. My role didn't make me impervious to death which means that the in game mechanics only served to make me a difficult mafioso to contend with rather than an impossible one. I should have been lynched as soon as DharmaHelper noticed I was the Kraken.

Also it's not as though it was "oh I have -5 votes this game is gonna be easy". I ended up having to make 950 posts to get the job done. It was a slog.

I don't mean that- what I mean is that once a mafia member is "caught," that mafia member should be able to be removed via the lynch poll.

That was never going to happen, because it meant needing 5(!) more voters on you than someone else in a given lynch. Yes, you could have been killed, but how many people ventured near the water knowing the Kraken was there? I went to the water one time in the very beginning and that was it.

You are almost impossible to lynch, especially as the civilians numbers dropped and the independents had the run of the show. There was no way for you to lose.

Have civilians ever won one of these "A World" games by the way? I know the Circle of Decay won last time. I don't know about games on other sites.

I was in kill range of members of the other team at least 5 or 6 times.

Doesn't negate my point. Most civilians don't have a kill.

Civilians shouldn't have to depend on mafia eliminating mafia to win.

There were two civilians roles that I basically couldn't find so couldn't kill at all along with two indies I couldn't kill and a Mafia member I couldn't kill. Everyone has their gripes.

[Jackofhearts2005]

This in the beginning crippled any hope the civilians could have possibly had from the outset.

Why make a mafia member all but immune to lynches?

There were days I was a revealed member of Mafia, with my role known, that I could have been lynched and wasn't. I was also within the kill range of Mafia many many times.

Oh and also it seemed to have got balanced by the fact that our entire team got infodumped so what does it matter.

You sound like I'm accusing you.

I'm not.

I'm saying it's a badly written role for anybody to have (especially mafia).

Nobody should ever have -5 votes- especially mafia.

The fact that I outed your entire team and you still won should demonstrate that.

I am just saying that there were many opportunities for me to be killed or lynched that were not taken. My role didn't make me impervious to death which means that the in game mechanics only served to make me a difficult mafioso to contend with rather than an impossible one. I should have been lynched as soon as DharmaHelper noticed I was the Kraken.

Also it's not as though it was "oh I have -5 votes this game is gonna be easy". I ended up having to make 950 posts to get the job done. It was a slog.

I don't mean that- what I mean is that once a mafia member is "caught," that mafia member should be able to be removed via the lynch poll.

That was never going to happen, because it meant needing 5(!) more voters on you than someone else in a given lynch. Yes, you could have been killed, but how many people ventured near the water knowing the Kraken was there? I went to the water one time in the very beginning and that was it.

You are almost impossible to lynch, especially as the civilians numbers dropped and the independents had the run of the show. There was no way for you to lose.

Have civilians ever won one of these "A World" games by the way? I know the Circle of Decay won last time. I don't know about games on other sites.

I was in kill range of members of the other team at least 5 or 6 times.

Doesn't negate my point. Most civilians don't have a kill.

Civilians shouldn't have to depend on mafia eliminating mafia to win.

I agree with that last sentence and I’ve been afraid to run a game with multiple scum factions ever since.

[MacDougall]

Epi don't poo on our win.

I'm not. I already said this. I'm criticizing the setup.

You're basically saying that I shouldn't have even bothered to make any real effort and still would have won, which ... I hope isn't true.

[MacDougall]

I could have been easily lynched several times had Quin and the other Mafia team not decided to help us win.

[Jackofhearts2005]

How did Mac get a wincon back? Cause Epi died?

[MacDougall]

Yes

[MacDougall]

Part of my role was that I saw the secrets/curses associated with items that I found and I found exactly zero items.

There were secrets and curses associated with items?

[Epignosis]

Epi don't poo on our win.

I'm not. I already said this. I'm criticizing the setup.

You're basically saying that I shouldn't have even bothered to make any real effort and still would have won, which ... I hope isn't true.

That isn't true.

Hey Mac:

You're a civilian.

At endgame, you find out one of the 8(!) people you needed to lynch could only be lynched if you pretty much had a unanimous vote in a game with two mafias and some independents.

You'd throw your toys out of the pram.

[Epignosis]

My point is that I wish these games were more balanced. They can be a lot of fun, but has a civilian ever won?

[DharmaHelper]

It's a fair critique of the role. -5 votes is nutty in a game where that starts as ~13% of players. Imagine having a 13% buffer.

[MacDougall]

Yeah but that's literally not true. It was only 8 people because I had allies.

The Kraken role is literally known to exist. It's an open non secret role. There were all sorts of roles, huge amounts of BTSC, abilities for people to see who is moving around the map. If people had their shit together they'd have made identifying the kraken a sub plot of the game. There was more than enough at the disposal of the other 30 odd players in the game to work around a Mafia player with -5 votes notwithstanding that there were also several Mafia killed in this game and I had no way of protecting myself at night.

I wouldn't throw my toys out of the pram at all. This is a game with an insane amount of potential scenarios. If by the end of the game it seemed like my role was OP it was because of the paths taken to get here. There are innumerable outcomes that result in my demise.

[DharmaHelper]

I don't even care TBH I'm the Demigod of Chaos now so I'm gonna be eternally dunking on nerds.

[MacDougall]

At the end of the last game I was furious because Golden basically played the entire game as a civilian and then got recruited into a Mafia team that was already coasting to victory so got to pick up a win as a result of being fooled. The nature of the LC game. Few people go home happy.

[Epignosis]

Yeah but that's literally not true. It was only 8 people because I had allies.

The Kraken role is literally known to exist. It's an open non secret role. There were all sorts of roles, huge amounts of BTSC, abilities for people to see who is moving around the map. If people had their shit together they'd have made identifying the kraken a sub plot of the game. There was more than enough at the disposal of the other 30 odd players in the game to work around a Mafia player with -5 votes notwithstanding that there were also several Mafia killed in this game and I had no way of protecting myself at night.

I wouldn't throw my toys out of the pram at all. This is a game with an insane amount of potential scenarios. If by the end of the game it seemed like my role was OP it was because of the paths taken to get here. There are innumerable outcomes that result in my demise.

I don't agree with that at all.

[MacDougall]

Every single day there was random map movements, night actions, kills, vote manipulation, day actions, items, portals, night polls that create cataclysms, interactive dungeon master host bullshit. Of course there are an insane amount of potential scenarios.

[Epignosis]

In four games on this site, 3 mafia wins and 2 independent wins, but never any civilian wins.

[Epignosis]

Every single day there was random map movements, night actions, kills, vote manipulation, day actions, items, portals, night polls that create cataclysms, interactive dungeon master host bullshit. Of course there are an insane amount of potential scenarios.

All of which civilians had to deal with too.

Civilians were fucked.

[MacDougall]

I am only engaging in this debate because I was literally in this role and at no point until the end game did I ever feel overpowered.

[DharmaHelper]

If Long Con hadn't accidentally revealed my identity I wouldn't have told DDL/Jack fuck all when I met them. Instead I told Jack, DDL, and by proxy DDL's whole team how to recruit me and where to find the pieces, which ultimately led to Enrique getting clapped on.

So if I had shut my mouth I would have been recruited by Enrique and had zero motivation to let Mac skate (but also zero way to stop him once the numbers dipped)

[MacDougall]

Every single day there was random map movements, night actions, kills, vote manipulation, day actions, items, portals, night polls that create cataclysms, interactive dungeon master host bullshit. Of course there are an insane amount of potential scenarios.

All of which civilians had to deal with too.

Civilians were fucked.

I just don't agree with, nor appreciate the idea that this game was easy for me lol.

[MacDougall]

If Long Con hadn't accidentally revealed my identity I wouldn't have told DDL/Jack fuck all when I met them. Instead I told Jack, DDL, and by proxy DDL's whole team how to recruit me and where to find the pieces, which ultimately led to Enrique getting clapped on.

So if I had shut my mouth I would have been recruited by Enrique and had zero motivation to let Mac skate (but also zero way to stop him once the numbers dipped)

There were four players alive at the end of the game I basically couldn't kill. That two of you had spent the previous several phases trying to help me without even being factionally aligned with me was a matter out of my control.

[DharmaHelper]

If Long Con hadn't accidentally revealed my identity I wouldn't have told DDL/Jack fuck all when I met them. Instead I told Jack, DDL, and by proxy DDL's whole team how to recruit me and where to find the pieces, which ultimately led to Enrique getting clapped on.

So if I had shut my mouth I would have been recruited by Enrique and had zero motivation to let Mac skate (but also zero way to stop him once the numbers dipped)

There were four players alive at the end of the game I basically couldn't kill. That two of you had spent the previous several phases trying to help me without even being factionally aligned with me was a matter out of my control.

I can't speak for Cbob but I helped you because

A. it was funny
B. At that point the numbers were against us if you died
C. Epi outting your whole team felt like a dumb way to win

[Epignosis]

I am only engaging in this debate because I was literally in this role and at no point until the end game did I ever feel overpowered.

You don't have to feel overpowered for your role to be overpowered.

It was overpowered.

I outed you and your entire team...and you still won. In a game (Mafia) in which the entire point is to figure out who is bad, someone comes in and say who half the bad guys are, and they win...how do you not have an overpowered role?

I personally didn't like my role. I hated being The Darkness, and then I kept changing win conditions (You want to complain about having no win condition? I had no win condition. Mine kept changing every two fucking phases). Then I got stuck latched on to winning with the civilians who had no chance because there weren't enough to lynch you at any point, AND (!) I had to be dead, which further meant I couldn't win.

There was no universe in which I could win. None. Zero. If the author would like to paint one, I'm willing to listen, but I had zero chance from the beginning.

So don't complain about your circumstances just because you felt you had to work to win. At least you had a chance to work.

[Epignosis]

Every single day there was random map movements, night actions, kills, vote manipulation, day actions, items, portals, night polls that create cataclysms, interactive dungeon master host bullshit. Of course there are an insane amount of potential scenarios.

All of which civilians had to deal with too.

Civilians were fucked.

I just don't agree with, nor appreciate the idea that this game was easy for me lol.

It may not have been easy for you.

It was easy for your role.

[Dana]

Wait so Mac was actually on a water square and DH died? But we still had more civs than mafia so why did the game end? Or was it the "who should win" poll/tribunal vote that decided

[DharmaHelper]

Wait so Mac was actually on a water square and DH died? But we still had more civs than mafia so why did the game end? Or was it the "who should win" poll/tribunal vote that decided

I was the last mafia and there weren't 5+ votes that could have lynched Mac.

[Epignosis]

I'm off to bed.

I'm not angry- not at all. I'm just passionate about game balance. If civilians are never winning your games, then you have to address that. If civilians have little chance of winning your games, then why bother?

[Dana]

Wait so Mac was actually on a water square and DH died? But we still had more civs than mafia so why did the game end? Or was it the "who should win" poll/tribunal vote that decided

I was the last mafia and there weren't 5+ votes that could have lynched Mac.

So Mac could have hopped on land

[Dana]

Or killed one of us

[MacDougall]

I am only engaging in this debate because I was literally in this role and at no point until the end game did I ever feel overpowered.

You don't have to feel overpowered for your role to be overpowered.

It was overpowered.

I outed you and your entire team...and you still won. In a game (Mafia) in which the entire point is to figure out who is bad, someone comes in and say who half the bad guys are, and they win...how do you not have an overpowered role?

I personally didn't like my role. I hated being The Darkness, and then I kept changing win conditions (You want to complain about having no win condition? I had no win condition. Mine kept changing every two fucking phases). Then I got stuck latched on to winning with the civilians who had no chance because there weren't enough to lynch you at any point, AND (!) I had to be dead, which further meant I couldn't win.

There was no universe in which I could win. None. Zero. If the author would like to paint one, I'm willing to listen, but I had zero chance from the beginning.

So don't complain about your circumstances just because you felt you had to work to win. At least you had a chance to work.

I don't mean to sound like I am complaining about my circumstances. I am not saying that I had it more difficult than others. I am telling you from the person sitting in this role seat that it was not as easy as you dreamed of it being. Especially after having to navigate being literally a revealed Mafia for several phases when there were easily more than enough people to lynch me. The game mechanics caused that outcome btw. Not just your whim. The game literally handed you that information. There were many mechanics built into this game to deal with the strength of our faction.

Every single day there was random map movements, night actions, kills, vote manipulation, day actions, items, portals, night polls that create cataclysms, interactive dungeon master host bullshit. Of course there are an insane amount of potential scenarios.

All of which civilians had to deal with too.

Civilians were fucked.

I just don't agree with, nor appreciate the idea that this game was easy for me lol.

It may not have been easy for you.

It was easy for your role.

This is quite mean dude. If you can't see how what you are saying is mean spirited and rude to me perhaps you should just take it as given from the person on the receiving end of it and rethink how you are raising these concerns of yours. As soon as the game ended you started shitting on the victory, didn't even give us a chance to be happy about winning what was an extremely challenging game before you rained on the parade. That's not nice at all. Perhaps rather than shitting all over it publicly you could have addressed these concerns with Long Con more constructively.

[MacDougall]

Anyway thanks Quin.

[MacDougall]

Also thanks Tranq and Juliets for staying by our side for days after you died. Speedchuck for fighting through near death to stay around for so long. Sorsha despite rage quitting you were a great teammate too.

[MacDougall]

Also thanks Bob and DharmaHelper for choosing us to win instead of the civilians lol.

[DharmaHelper]

Anyway thanks Quin.

Uh excuse you bruv I lied and told everyone you were lynchable just to get slam fucking dunked into the actual ether.

[Epignosis]

I am only engaging in this debate because I was literally in this role and at no point until the end game did I ever feel overpowered.

You don't have to feel overpowered for your role to be overpowered.

It was overpowered.

I outed you and your entire team...and you still won. In a game (Mafia) in which the entire point is to figure out who is bad, someone comes in and say who half the bad guys are, and they win...how do you not have an overpowered role?

I personally didn't like my role. I hated being The Darkness, and then I kept changing win conditions (You want to complain about having no win condition? I had no win condition. Mine kept changing every two fucking phases). Then I got stuck latched on to winning with the civilians who had no chance because there weren't enough to lynch you at any point, AND (!) I had to be dead, which further meant I couldn't win.

There was no universe in which I could win. None. Zero. If the author would like to paint one, I'm willing to listen, but I had zero chance from the beginning.

So don't complain about your circumstances just because you felt you had to work to win. At least you had a chance to work.

I don't mean to sound like I am complaining about my circumstances. I am not saying that I had it more difficult than others. I am telling you from the person sitting in this role seat that it was not as easy as you dreamed of it being. Especially after having to navigate being literally a revealed Mafia for several phases when there were easily more than enough people to lynch me. The game mechanics caused that outcome btw. Not just your whim. The game literally handed you that information. There were many mechanics built into this game to deal with the strength of our faction.

Every single day there was random map movements, night actions, kills, vote manipulation, day actions, items, portals, night polls that create cataclysms, interactive dungeon master host bullshit. Of course there are an insane amount of potential scenarios.

All of which civilians had to deal with too.

Civilians were fucked.

I just don't agree with, nor appreciate the idea that this game was easy for me lol.

It may not have been easy for you.

It was easy for your role.

This is quite mean dude. If you can't see how what you are saying is mean spirited and rude to me perhaps you should just take it as given from the person on the receiving end of it and rethink how you are raising these concerns of yours. As soon as the game ended you started shitting on the victory, didn't even give us a chance to be happy about winning what was an extremely challenging game before you rained on the parade. That's not nice at all. Perhaps rather than shitting all over it publicly you could have addressed these concerns with Long Con more constructively.

I'm not shitting on your win.

I mean I wasn't gonna win anyway, pushing Mac across the finish line was the least I could do.

I personally don't mind that outcome.

I think the setup needed some play testing.

(Also I figured we'd lose anyway so helping Mac win was fun)

I don't hate it.

The big letters is what I am arguing against. And information is stupid when you can't do anything about it. I am complaining about the setup. If you can't see that and instead choose to take it personally, I don't know what to tell you.

[MacDougall]

Saying the role I had was invincible makes me feel like all of the effort I put in was worthless and there is nothing worse than being made to feel like your effort is not valued.

[MacDougall]

I take pride in playing this game well and felt like this win was very hard earned. You are taking that feeling away. Of course I am going to be pissed off about that.