Mafia: A World Asunder - GAME THREAD [Day 13]

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I think "Mac played a good game and deserved a win" and "the balance of this setup was off" can both be true statements.

true but i think the latter has its own place and it's not 5 minutes after the game ended

That's literally the best time to discuss a game's balance.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

When the balance is off, the Civs don't come within one wrong vig-kill of winning the game.

On the contrary. If vigs are required for the civs to win, it clearly means something is wrong.

Town's main tool is the lynch. If the lynch doesn't work, then town is underpowered.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

LC I hope you don't see this as an attack to you. I really enjoyed playing this game and appreciate your effort in making and hosting it.

But I'm not just gonna sit down and say everything was perfect just to be political. If I have (constructive) criticism to make I will make them.

[Long Con]

When the balance is off, the Civs don't come within one wrong vig-kill of winning the game.

On the contrary. If vigs are required for the civs to win, it clearly means something is wrong.

Town's main tool is the lynch. If the lynch doesn't work, then town is underpowered.

What it means is that any one decision for the whole game previous to that point could have changed the outcome at that point to a victory the Civs were already enjoying.

[Quin]

I think "Mac played a good game and deserved a win" and "the balance of this setup was off" can both be true statements.

true but i think the latter has its own place and it's not 5 minutes after the game ended

That's literally the best time to discuss a game's balance.

Because that's the first thing the winner wants to read after a month of fighting for a win.

[ColinIsCool]

I had no idea what I was doing at any point after the old lady in the witch stuff.

I don’t care about the balance conversation, but it was frustrating to see this become “The civs played a bad game and don’t deserve to get helped” every time I popped in.

1) There is no “deserve” about it — you win or lose per the rules.

2) In a game where 11 of the first 12 deaths are civilian, but there are multiple scumteams, it doesn’t seem like anybody was playing Mafia very well at all (not conventionally, anyway). I’m not trying to take away from the winners, but I don’t know if hunting was a priority until I had been killed.

Thanks for hosting, Long Con and Black Rock!

[ColinIsCool]

That sounds kind of shitty, so let me emphasize: the winners played a good game. I think civs and scum were all playing a different game, though.

I also only had BTSC once, with Mac, so my perception is probably skewed from what really happened, but ah well. Fire Walk With Me was the opposite of that for me, and sometimes that’s just how it goes.

[speedchuck]

also did i just end 2018 with the most wins on the site because cool beans if so

I was miles ahead but this is the first game I won since last July

[Long Con]

LC I hope you don't see this as an attack to you. I really enjoyed playing this game and appreciate your effort in making and hosting it.

But I'm not just gonna sit down and say everything was perfect just to be political. If I have (constructive) criticism to make I will make them.

No, I don't feel attacked, I think we just have different ideas about what is balanced. For me balance is achieved when every faction has a decent chance at Victory, as opposed to something like Doctor Who Mafia, where a viral recruiter had to be killed immediately, or the game was 100% going to be theirs.

[speedchuck]

In fairness to dipshit Enrique, Speedchuck actually killed G-Man not Kyle. So you probably should apologise to Enrique for calling him a dipshit.

Thanks. I wanted to say that, but "I killed G-Man not Kylemii" is a bad defense.

[ColinIsCool]

Everybody go sign up for INH and Turbup’s games now

[speedchuck]

I look forward to analyzing GOC 2018, which is clearly a paragon of balance.

Awesome.

[speedchuck]

I'm very leery of changing win conditions, and I agree that -5 votes might be a little much (Though Mac only ever needed -2 to win the game in the end, victory well deserved regardless).

I also dislike silencing, and only ended up using the role for its vote utility after Mac took over the targeting for me. You guys got 4 days of no silence. Yer welcome.

I spent half the game chasing unicorns, who then (I think) died in the cataclysm. Then I got outted, died, rezzed, died, had surgery, and won the game.

Um. GG guys.

[DharmaHelper]

GOC 2018?

[nutella]

If the Civs had lynched Mac on any number of days, including several where he was outed as the tentacle-slapping Kraken, then they likely would have won.

If the Corrupt Remnant had chosen to kill Mac with the many chances they had, then the Civs could have won.

When Epi was the Champion for a couple of days (you know - the part of his role he didn't tell you about that was the Civ vigilante whose kills failed on Civs!) he chose to keep hiding away at the top edge of the map instead of finding a baddie (maybe one who is hard to lynch?) and killing them.

In the first game in the series, Mafia: A World Apart, the Civs would have won if they hadn't allowed themselves to be fooled by a cheap illusion and a fast-talking baddie who convinced them he was unlynchable with only the power of his words.

In Mafia: A World Reborn, the Civs had a fine chance to win. They were just outplayed by the baddies.

The mistakes in this game weren't balance issues. They were: 1. Outting DH early, 2. Allowing the Jagged Blade to choose to out their whole team (I should have host-interfered with that), and 3. Flight rules provided too much valuable info to the fliers.

I look forward to analyzing GOC 2018, which is clearly a paragon of balance.

Boom
the clapback on this lad

[nutella]

@Long Con what was the deal with the multi-D'Abrutsi?

I would also love to know this. Like INH and Tranq my role card said that I was supposed to get lynched Day 3 to achieve the awesome potential of my role. Would have been fun to be around for that chaos.

[DharmaHelper]

When Epi was the Champion for a couple of days (you know - the part of his role he didn't tell you about that was the Civ vigilante whose kills failed on Civs!) he chose to keep hiding away at the top edge of the map instead of finding a baddie (maybe one who is hard to lynch?) and killing them.

To be fair Epi wasn't hiding like a coward he was up there in the mountains building a house made of glass.

[DharmaHelper]

I don't believe civilians "played like shit" or "didn't deserve to win"

What I do believe is that I had no incentive at any point in the game (unrecruited or otherwise) to help the civs with my deeds or words. I was incentivized to help the mafia almost all game. And I believed that having his whole team outted, having one member of his team rage quit as a result, etc, made Mac a more interesting and compelling winner to help.

Which isn't to say me going "Hey guys Mac is the Kraken lynch him before Chuck or you'll lose" was insignificant.

[DharmaHelper]

I also told my whole team "Chill, Mac's shitposting he doesn't have fuck all on any of us" when he started outting Cbob and Timmer but that didn't happen and if it did happen we would've had the numbers to make killing Mac a viable option.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Everybody go sign up for INH and Turbup’s games now

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I'm very leery of changing win conditions, and I agree that -5 votes might be a little much (Though Mac only ever needed -2 to win the game in the end, victory well deserved regardless).

I also dislike silencing, and only ended up using the role for its vote utility after Mac took over the targeting for me. You guys got 4 days of no silence. Yer welcome.

I spent half the game chasing unicorns, who then (I think) died in the cataclysm. Then I got outted, died, rezzed, died, had surgery, and won the game.

Um. GG guys.

Wait those unicorns actually did something?

They were in C8 btw. And yes, they died.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

LC I hope you don't see this as an attack to you. I really enjoyed playing this game and appreciate your effort in making and hosting it.

But I'm not just gonna sit down and say everything was perfect just to be political. If I have (constructive) criticism to make I will make them.

No, I don't feel attacked, I think we just have different ideas about what is balanced. For me balance is achieved when every faction has a decent chance at Victory, as opposed to something like Doctor Who Mafia, where a viral recruiter had to be killed immediately, or the game was 100% going to be theirs.

Well I also think the same, I just don't think the winning chances were that even in this game.

But this is a hard argument to prove since there are so many variables, and I think I already made the main points.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

What were the 2 roles that were not in the game?

[Sloonei]

I believe the word for this game is "wild".

[Enrique]

Long Con, you hosted an incredible game. If there were problems with some roles just being *too much* and letting some problems slip by, I don't care, the game was amazing as it was and I trust you to take any criticism to heart and keep building on the games you design.

This was my map game and I really loved the concept, though sadly I didn't really get to talk to people much BTSC lol, which was one of the more exciting things I wanted to do. LoRab was a blast in BTSC that day and I really enjoyed our BTSC trying to figure out what the fuck was going on even if we were basically wrong about everything (mostly me).

Mac you did awesome. It was a deserved win, no buts. I wish I had had map info and been able to spot you and figures out how to avoid you. There was some confusion about how my kills worked and I wanted to take advantage of that (I only ever had one kill and I didn't use it; LC's clarification meant I could kill anywhere with water). But yeah, I didn't know what to do, and those who know me know my level of investment fluctuates a lot day by day because I may hyperfocus on the game one day and have a completely new set of things to do by the next. I just know for sure I wanted to be alive through this game to the end.

The civs got too much shit but I thought it was actually a good game, and I disagreed with SVS throwing the towel and the general sentiment that it was hopeless. A small criticism would be that I really don't think sig was able to read the room when he got lynched and just gave up on an actual defense, which I mean, shit happens, it just cost us a lot. Dana played a great game, but she was always hiding! BTSC is one of the most fun parts of map games @Dana and I wish you had tried it out (I don't know for sure that you didn't but that's what it looked like was happening)!

Gg to DH, Quin. I think nine lives is kind of absurd but I get it, he just wasn't supposed to die. Still would've been hilarious if we killed him nine times. DH I wish I could have recruited you and made up for FWWM, lol. Almost got there.

[juliets]

I think "Mac played a good game and deserved a win" and "the balance of this setup was off" can both be true statements.

true but i think the latter has its own place and it's not 5 minutes after the game ended

That's literally the best time to discuss a game's balance.

Because that's the first thing the winner wants to read after a month of fighting for a win.

Yeah I double triple agree with this and it's not because I'm a winner (I mean I got killed too early to really contribute to the win). If it were me and I had a problem with the balance of a game and my objective was to give feedback to the host so they could improve in their next game I would give them the feedback privately. Why call out the host and winners publicly, what is the objective there?

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I think "Mac played a good game and deserved a win" and "the balance of this setup was off" can both be true statements.

true but i think the latter has its own place and it's not 5 minutes after the game ended

That's literally the best time to discuss a game's balance.

Because that's the first thing the winner wants to read after a month of fighting for a win.

Yeah I double triple agree with this and it's not because I'm a winner (I mean I got killed too early to really contribute to the win). If it were me and I had a problem with the balance of a game and my objective was to give feedback to the host so they could improve in their next game I would give them the feedback privately. Why call out the host and winners publicly, what is the objective there?

We all learn from each others' games. Posting feedback and discussing it helps with that. It's not about complaining about the results, it's about making the best use of whatever knowledge we gained here.

The point here isn't "make Mac feel like a loser". He played amazingly and deserved to win. It's "unlynchable baddies are a bad idea, don't use it".

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Sorry guys I'm insisting on this argument because I'm stubborn like that but I will stop before I offend anyone. I apologize if I already did.

[Dana]

Gotta hide to survive Enri! Sorry you got killed (twice) I was excited to play again with you. But I was scared to talk to people because I didn't want to get manipulated which I know I'm really susceptible to.

[DharmaHelper]

Long Con, you hosted an incredible game. If there were problems with some roles just being *too much* and letting some problems slip by, I don't care, the game was amazing as it was and I trust you to take any criticism to heart and keep building on the games you design.

This was my map game and I really loved the concept, though sadly I didn't really get to talk to people much BTSC lol, which was one of the more exciting things I wanted to do. LoRab was a blast in BTSC that day and I really enjoyed our BTSC trying to figure out what the fuck was going on even if we were basically wrong about everything (mostly me).

Mac you did awesome. It was a deserved win, no buts. I wish I had had map info and been able to spot you and figures out how to avoid you. There was some confusion about how my kills worked and I wanted to take advantage of that (I only ever had one kill and I didn't use it; LC's clarification meant I could kill anywhere with water). But yeah, I didn't know what to do, and those who know me know my level of investment fluctuates a lot day by day because I may hyperfocus on the game one day and have a completely new set of things to do by the next. I just know for sure I wanted to be alive through this game to the end.

The civs got too much shit but I thought it was actually a good game, and I disagreed with SVS throwing the towel and the general sentiment that it was hopeless. A small criticism would be that I really don't think sig was able to read the room when he got lynched and just gave up on an actual defense, which I mean, shit happens, it just cost us a lot. Dana played a great game, but she was always hiding! BTSC is one of the most fun parts of map games @Dana and I wish you had tried it out (I don't know for sure that you didn't but that's what it looked like was happening)!

Gg to DH, Quin. I think nine lives is kind of absurd but I get it, he just wasn't supposed to die. Still would've been hilarious if we killed him nine times. DH I wish I could have recruited you and made up for FWWM, lol. Almost got there.

I was sad to learn you were the one the mafia was going to kill to recruit me.

[timmer]

Thx for the game LC /BR!

[MacDougall]

I felt like the remnant played very well in this game. Timmer and Bob were so hard to read as Mafia in the end I had my own POE and that's the only reason I figured them out. DDL got stitched up by info. TH killed n1.

[sabie12]

Well that's the longest I've ever lived in a mafia game. I felt like even though I basically knew sorsha was bad and was iffy on tranq I had a weird uneasy alliance where she didnt kill me and gave me useful protective stuff and I didnt lynch her. By the time I escaped from them and went off to do my own thing she had died or whatever.

[Epignosis]

I am apologizing to LC and Mac privately. Without going into it, yesterday was a wildly shitty day (both figuratively and literally ) and I spoke uncharitably here and took that avenue to channel my frustrations. I will do better.

[juliets]

I am apologizing to LC and Mac privately. Without going into it, yesterday was a wildly shitty day (both figuratively and literally ) and I spoke uncharitably here and took that avenue to channel my frustrations. I will do better.

I heard the details about your day and it sounded horrid. Sorry you had to go through that.

[Epignosis]

I am apologizing to LC and Mac privately. Without going into it, yesterday was a wildly shitty day (both figuratively and literally ) and I spoke uncharitably here and took that avenue to channel my frustrations. I will do better.

I heard the details about your day and it sounded horrid. Sorry you had to go through that.

Thanks juliets.

In case anybody cared to know:

Spoiler: show

I rarely buy breakfast, but I did yesterday, and someone stole my half-eaten breakfast while I was assisting a student. Then a sewer pipe burst, so the whole school smelled of shit and other nastiness, and everybody had to use only a few available toilets, except there was no toilet paper, but that didn't stop one boy from shitting all over (and I mean all over) one of the stalls, so then the building smelled like shit. The exams took longer than expected. One girl began losing her mind because she couldn't have her phone immediately after the exam and almost broke a window and I had to calm her down. Then there were two fights, and two boys I had helped make it to their senior year with some prospect for a future after high school are in jeopardy of expulsion and criminal charges.

[DharmaHelper]

I am apologizing to LC and Mac privately. Without going into it, yesterday was a wildly shitty day (both figuratively and literally ) and I spoke uncharitably here and took that avenue to channel my frustrations. I will do better.

Ay bud if you need anything hit me up.

[sabie12]

That all sounds horrible I'm sorry to hear

[Turnip Head]

Can't believe someone stole the rest of your breakfast

[Turnip Head]

Shits fucked up

[DharmaHelper]

Have a snickers, Epignosis. You're not yourself when you're hungry.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I felt like the remnant played very well in this game. Timmer and Bob were so hard to read as Mafia in the end I had my own POE and that's the only reason I figured them out. DDL got stitched up by info. TH killed n1.

Thanks, man. You guys did pretty well too. I thought you were very civ-like at the start.

[Quin]

Long Con, you hosted an incredible game. If there were problems with some roles just being *too much* and letting some problems slip by, I don't care, the game was amazing as it was and I trust you to take any criticism to heart and keep building on the games you design.

This was my map game and I really loved the concept, though sadly I didn't really get to talk to people much BTSC lol, which was one of the more exciting things I wanted to do. LoRab was a blast in BTSC that day and I really enjoyed our BTSC trying to figure out what the fuck was going on even if we were basically wrong about everything (mostly me).

Mac you did awesome. It was a deserved win, no buts. I wish I had had map info and been able to spot you and figures out how to avoid you. There was some confusion about how my kills worked and I wanted to take advantage of that (I only ever had one kill and I didn't use it; LC's clarification meant I could kill anywhere with water). But yeah, I didn't know what to do, and those who know me know my level of investment fluctuates a lot day by day because I may hyperfocus on the game one day and have a completely new set of things to do by the next. I just know for sure I wanted to be alive through this game to the end.

The civs got too much shit but I thought it was actually a good game, and I disagreed with SVS throwing the towel and the general sentiment that it was hopeless. A small criticism would be that I really don't think sig was able to read the room when he got lynched and just gave up on an actual defense, which I mean, shit happens, it just cost us a lot. Dana played a great game, but she was always hiding! BTSC is one of the most fun parts of map games @Dana and I wish you had tried it out (I don't know for sure that you didn't but that's what it looked like was happening)!

Gg to DH, Quin. I think nine lives is kind of absurd but I get it, he just wasn't supposed to die. Still would've been hilarious if we killed him nine times. DH I wish I could have recruited you and made up for FWWM, lol. Almost got there.

i guess the thing about my role was that it didn't even really require I play mafia. If I wanted to I could've cat claimed Day 1, probably gotten lynched to test it, and then ridden towards end-game hoping it lasted long enough for me to get where I needed to go. While you were all scum hunting I was on a scavenger hunt, basically.

[colonialbob]

I felt like the remnant played very well in this game. Timmer and Bob were so hard to read as Mafia in the end I had my own POE and that's the only reason I figured them out. DDL got stitched up by info. TH killed n1.

Appreciate you saying so.

[timmer]

I felt like the remnant played very well in this game. Timmer and Bob were so hard to read as Mafia in the end I had my own POE and that's the only reason I figured them out. DDL got stitched up by info. TH killed n1.

I think that's partly why I snapped, lol. I came into this with a plan to play my best game ever. I wanted to last to the end and have people be like wow, timmer was bad? And it was working really really well. And then info after v info after info just turned everything on its head because I had no time to play when I had to wait out the info chaos each day.

And then I had a very bad day and showed up to That Day and just walked, which I apologize for again. But it was like, this is it, the last chance of playing a normal game is gone. I don't actually think there was anything wrong with the game, we play with info on my movie site all the time. It just clashed with my expectations in a way that became a problem.

[timmer]

Ultimately you figured out how to adapt in the game s environment and I didn't, and that alone is reason enough for you to get the win.

[Tranq]

@Long Con what was the deal with the multi-D'Abrutsi?

I would also love to know this. Like INH and Tranq my role card said that I was supposed to get lynched Day 3 to achieve the awesome potential of my role. Would have been fun to be around for that chaos.

This was a very weird role to play early in the game. I didn't know there were three of us so nutella's death was very confusing. Then INH very obviously tried to get himself lynched aswell and that's when it started to click.
I think the three D'Abrutsi's would've gained btsc had one of us succeeded in getting lynched on Day 3. Correct me if i'm wrong about this, LC.

Then once INH died i received this message:
INH has died. Your memories come flooding back to you. How could you have forgotten? The rigors of dimensional travel do take their toll.
You grieve for your lost brothers, Altus and Bedanzo D'Abrutsi, for together you were the Musketeers, winners of Recruitment Mafia III.
As Cyrillian D'Abrutsi, your grief at the loss of your brothers has driven you to evil.
You have joined the Jagged Blade.

[Long Con]

D’Abrutsi Triplets - Three players share the same role, shown only as ‘D’Abrutsi’ in the roles. Altus, Bedanzo, and Cyrillian, none know of the others’ existence. On Day 3, each must try to get lynched, and the one(s) who win will survive the lynch and learn of their brothers, and will know their locations from that point on.

If all three brothers end up on the same square, they realize they are the Musketeers from Recruitment Mafia III (http://forum.revolutionmafia.com/viewto ... 14#p213514), and Altus gets the power to add two votes to a poll, Bedanzo can subtract two, and Cyrillian has votes cast for him cut in half.

If one of the brothers is killed, the remaining two become Indy, with survival win conditions. As long as they remain within two squares of each other, they will automatically protect each other.

The last brother left alive will turn evil and join a random baddie team, acquiring their win condition. If he outlives the rest of the team, he will become a Serial Killer who must be the Last Man Standing.



In order to obfuscate the D'Abrutsi brothers, there had to be some extra roles thrown in that weren't in the game. I threw a couple of extras in, the original idea being some sort of roleclaiming possibility for the really bad-sounding baddies, but then I relaxed it and just let them be. For a fun mystery for the astute observer.

Waresman - Has various items for sale, for the right price. Any information sold to the Waresman will be truth-verified. He cannot use his own wares.

Dark Worshipper - Can sacrifice another player three times in the game. Each kill will grant him extra, permanent powers. The role that he kills determines what the gained powers are.

Hollow Man - All targeting will fail when targeting Hollow Man. Hollow Man will appear as a random Civilian role if rolechecked or lynched.

Random Animal - Randomly becomes a copy of another role each phase, and assumes that role’s Win Condition at the time.


The Waresman was an early role idea that I rejected in the end. I think the same thing happened in A World Reborn. Sounds good, but it's too sloppy and prone to abuse.

Dark Worshipper... loved this idea when I had it, then stopped loving it. Maybe it will appear in a future game.

Hollow Man is a perfect role to not exist. Holloow, right? Also easily poisons the mind if you assume he's out there.

The Random Animal is pretty meh. I guess it did work itself in, many thought Tranq must be that role.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Lmao so the random animal didn't even exist?

I think I also kept speculating a lot about Dark Worshipper, then later kind of forgot about him.

[Tranq]

Fun fact: LC's christmas lynch post listed all the roles that were still alive at the time, and even hinted at the 2 D'Abrutsi's:

Spoiler: show

A Realm Story

'Twas the night before Christmas, and all through the Realm
A lynch was beginning, Long Con at the helm

Sakana Sashimi carolled with his gills
The Frost Knight made snowflakes, while feeling no chills
The Kraken wrapped presents, eight tentacles taping
The Pixie hung garland, with thoughts of escaping

Chevuschade Voidwing helped light up the sky
While Thaddeus Mechaspark made toys on the fly
D'Abrutsi worked double, and pulled an all-nighter
The Seer lit a candle, rememb'ring Lamplighter

When all of a sudden, there arose such a clatter
And Civvies and baddies alike went to scatter
He burst through the clouds, hooves pounding the air
Santa Claus in his sleigh, drawn by reindeer in pair

He leapt out as he landed, boots cracking the ice
And he brought out a list, which he checked over twice
Cleared his throat, "Now, don't see me as overly haughty,
But it seems DDL is especially naughty!"

"I'd normally leave him a handful of coal,
But the crimes he's committed - he forfeits his soul!
Pour me a hot chocolate, cinnamon, just a pinch,
And let's go about finalizing this lynch!"

DDL squirmed and sweat, his mortality waning
The votes piled up, and no one was complaining!
"Time to leave!" he decided, and he opened a door
From the square he was in, to some place from before

Toxic Frog ribbited, "He's gone through a Portal!"
But the kindly old elf, with a wink and a chortle
Said "The magic of Christmas will prevail yet
I hope DDL doesn't mind getting wet!"

A magical sparkle, and a twitch of his nose,
And the portal's egress became one that he chose
Coming out on A10, with no ground to land on
He sputtered and drowned, and then he was gone.

Santa laughed, and a sparkle did dance in his eye
as he said, "Now it's time for ol' Santa to fly
I hope that you Civvies can just get things right
Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night!"

Dragon D Luffy has been lynched! He was Portalman, a member of the Corrupt Remnant.

It's now a Christmas-extended Night 6. Merry Christmas!