Persona 5 Mafia [Game End]

[Epignosis]

Why is epi green tho

I'm the best.

[Creature]

If there's only one scum left I'd guess that scum voted Tony?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

If there's only one scum left I'd guess that scum voted Tony?

That was my initial instinct, though my interactive analyses ended up leading me elsewhere.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

It's a question worth exploring though. If there is a mafioso among Tony's voters, I'd lean toward Rej.

[Epignosis]

I have a few moments if anybody needs me, disposable waste that I am.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I have a few moments if anybody needs me, disposable waste that I am.

My concerns are here and in my following post.

[Epignosis]

I have a few moments if anybody needs me, disposable waste that I am.

My concerns are here and in my following post.

I don't care about your concerns about me. I'm here for a limited time. Use me while I last.

[Epignosis]

I will try to look at Tony and make a smart vote. That's about all I can offer.

[Epignosis]

But I don't mind answering questions if it helps.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don't care about your concerns about me. I'm here for a limited time. Use me while I last.

What else am I to do to "use" you during the night phase?

Who's bad?

[Epignosis]

Jesus, 150 posts. Shit.

[Epignosis]

I don't care about your concerns about me. I'm here for a limited time. Use me while I last.

What else am I to do to "use" you during the night phase?

Who's bad?

I mean that I don't care what you think of me or what you wrote about me. I know your methodology and you are going to lynch me eventually. Fine.

I don't know who is bad. I just sat down. I'm reading. If you have a specific question about me, I don't mind addressing it. I'm not pouring over some interactive shit you wrote when it does nothing for me.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

If you have a specific question about me, I don't mind addressing it.

What inspired your civilian read on Tony?

[Epignosis]

If you have a specific question about me, I don't mind addressing it.

What inspired your civilian read on Tony?

A desire to be contrarian.

And alcohol.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

If you have a specific question about me, I don't mind addressing it.

What inspired your civilian read on Tony?

A desire to be contrarian.

And alcohol.

Okay. Do your thing.

[Epignosis]

Let me ask you something:

well I think I'm dead time to look at my role card

How much stock do you put into this?

[Epignosis]

That "you" is for anybody.

[Jackofhearts2005]

If you have a specific question about me, I don't mind addressing it.

What inspired your civilian read on Tony?

A desire to be contrarian.

[Epignosis]

If you have a specific question about me, I don't mind addressing it.

What inspired your civilian read on Tony?

A desire to be contrarian.

And alcohol. Don't forget alcohol.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Let me ask you something:

well I think I'm dead time to look at my role card

How much stock do you put into this?

Zero.

[Epignosis]

I only ask because I have hosted twice in which that happened- players did not look and said they played better when they didn't. I don't get the logic, but apparently it's a thing. Eh.

[Epignosis]

Tony got bussed. I'm sold. He's waving flags at his accusers and trying to mask which one did it.

[Epignosis]

That was only two instances though.

[MacDougall]

The town core of most mafia reads are townies because TMI(unless their buddy has immense town cred). They give the concrete town reads to townies and the hesitant or slight leans to their buddies. Tell me I'm wrong.

The highlighted bit is the whole deal, innit? When Tony provided a town core of Mac, Jack, and yourself, he left us to answer that question: are any of those three teammates for whom he built off of their strong civilian credit?

My immediate inclination is that the answer is no. If any of them is a bad guy, I probably end up at Mac first.

@MacDougall, if the Jack bus is something you believe in, it'd be swell if you could describe it in more detail (even if you're citing the same posts I cited).

Yeah ok

[Epignosis]

TonyStarkPrime, could you gimme some quick gun-to-head reads on everyone?

-Creature
-Dragomir
-Epignosis
-Jackofhearts2005
-JaggedJimmyJay
-Long Con
-MacDougall
-nutella
-Rej
-sprityo

Since you asked
town
scum
sort out
sort out
sort out
sort out
town unless with Nutella
scum
scum
town

I have no current interest in reading the top three sort outs and LC has no posts

“But that’s not the point of GTH”
“Well I gave you three scum so I guess town town town but I legitimately have very few thoughts”

The red sticks out. That's Mac and nutella Tony is drawing attention to. That's a variant on a mafia trick I've used (although it's poorly executed). If TSP and Mac are bad together, then nutella's reveal solidifies Mac's goodness. If TSP and nutella are bad together, it solidifies nutella's goodness.

MacDougall and nutella are my present suspects.

[MacDougall]

I won't be of much him right now as I got a shitload of homework to do which are all due tomorrow. As of right now, here's my rainbow.

Jay
Epi
Nutella
Sprityo
Long Con
MacDougall

Creature
Jack
Rej

Why am I a different and less green shade of green than everyone else? That seems weird to me...

[sprityo]

Tony got bussed. I'm sold. He's waving flags at his accusers and trying to mask which one did it.

I can get behind this theory

[Jackofhearts2005]

I only ask because I have hosted twice in which that happened- players did not look and said they played better when they didn't. I don't get the logic, but apparently it's a thing. Eh.

That is a dumb strategy. As a townie, this can provide no possible advantage except self obscuring a power role.

As a wolf, this will cause you to play a million times worse because you give up vote control and teamwork. That and it would piss off your teammates royally. I do not think Tony would ever do this and nobody seemed angry at eod.

[sprityo]

I won't be of much him right now as I got a shitload of homework to do which are all due tomorrow. As of right now, here's my rainbow.

Jay
Epi
Nutella
Sprityo
Long Con
MacDougall

Creature
Jack
Rej

Why am I a different and less green shade of green than everyone else? That seems weird to me...

You’re puke green while I am a nice broccoli green

[MacDougall]

TonyStarkPrime, could you gimme some quick gun-to-head reads on everyone?

-Creature
-Dragomir
-Epignosis
-Jackofhearts2005
-JaggedJimmyJay
-Long Con
-MacDougall
-nutella
-Rej
-sprityo

Since you asked
town
scum
sort out
sort out
sort out
sort out
town unless with Nutella
scum
scum
town

I have no current interest in reading the top three sort outs and LC has no posts

“But that’s not the point of GTH”
“Well I gave you three scum so I guess town town town but I legitimately have very few thoughts”

The red sticks out. That's Mac and nutella Tony is drawing attention to. That's a variant on a mafia trick I've used (although it's poorly executed). If TSP and Mac are bad together, then nutella's reveal solidifies Mac's goodness. If TSP and nutella are bad together, it solidifies nutella's goodness.

MacDougall and nutella are my present suspects.

Fair enough observation. I had quite a few moments of doubt towards Nutella yesterday tbh. I can assure you that I am not Mafia though. TSP would not have been lynched if I was. Not under any circumstances.

[MacDougall]

I won't be of much him right now as I got a shitload of homework to do which are all due tomorrow. As of right now, here's my rainbow.

Jay
Epi
Nutella
Sprityo
Long Con
MacDougall

Creature
Jack
Rej

Why am I a different and less green shade of green than everyone else? That seems weird to me...

You’re puke green while I am a nice broccoli green

Ah makes sense now!

[Epignosis]

I only ask because I have hosted twice in which that happened- players did not look and said they played better when they didn't. I don't get the logic, but apparently it's a thing. Eh.

That is a dumb strategy. As a townie, this can provide no possible advantage except self obscuring a power role.

As a wolf, this will cause you to play a million times worse because you give up vote control and teamwork. That and it would piss off your teammates royally. I do not think Tony would ever do this and nobody seemed angry at eod.

It is dumb...but as I said, I've hosted it. I've witnessed it.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Tony got bussed. I'm sold. He's waving flags at his accusers and trying to mask which one did it.

Jay’s late vote aside, my problem is that the Tony wagon is exactly all my townreads before Tony flipped.

I agree Tony went into antispew somewhere around the point he voted for Jay.

[Epignosis]

Tony got bussed. I'm sold. He's waving flags at his accusers and trying to mask which one did it.

Jay’s late vote aside, my problem is that the Tony wagon is exactly all my townreads before Tony flipped.

I agree Tony went into antispew somewhere around the point he voted for Jay.

How did Tony's lynch change things for you with regard to other people? If that's your meaning.

[MacDougall]

A brief argument of my innocence before I move on to burying others. From where I sit, I feel like I am the person most responsible for TSP's lynch and that matters on a day 1 in which nobody really got put under all that much duress, meaning that if I and TSP were wolves together the obvious and simple move would have been for us to introduce or push an alternative wagon and with my thread control capacity I would have found it pretty bloody easy to create a mislynch. I introduced the original TSP suspicion and when things were moving towards counter subjects I am the one that reintroduced the TSP wagon. I might have briefly doubted myself, but I ultimately ended up revoting him in a manner that only sought to reduce the credit that I would have gained. I don't think that it makes any sense for wolf me to have chosen to bus at all, let alone not done so thoroughly and convincingly. If there is one thing that is not really part of my scum game it's bussing. I am more of a team win without loss kind of person.

I don't like using wifom defences, but I know that most of you love it so if you choose to ignore it and you are familiar with me you're intentionally ignoring the obvious, or you're forgetting what you know (unless you're Epi who I can forgive for it because he's not really a meta guy).

Obvious argument against this is "wifom" etc. but me not being a busser is something that has held water for years and I am not gonna use a trump card like that in a random game like this sorry.

Now I don't feel particularly confronted by this, but I have seen a few day 1 mafia lynches end up in tragedy due to townies complacent and the survivors being skilled and not leaving much teammate connections so I feel it is my civ duty to 86 any angles towards me being suspect early and without doubt.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I can assure you that I am not Mafia though. TSP would not have been lynched if I was. Not under any circumstances.

Why not?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Oh, you just made that post.

[MacDougall]

Tony got bussed. I'm sold. He's waving flags at his accusers and trying to mask which one did it.

Jay’s late vote aside, my problem is that the Tony wagon is exactly all my townreads before Tony flipped.

I agree Tony went into antispew somewhere around the point he voted for Jay.

I agree with both of you in that I do think that Tony was bussed, but I do not think that it makes sense to have been a decision that was made before he was placed under pressure. I don't think it makes sense for me to have both introduced the suspicion and then bussed, but at some point I can buy that he and his partner started to feel like it was a lost cause and it turned into a bus, and that is exactly how I felt in the heat of the moment when I belaboured the point that I thought you were doing exactly that.

[Jackofhearts2005]

My biggest weakness as a hunter is admittedly that I take the obvious route. Hard bussing can fool me. A townie that looks inconsistent or frozen or opportunistic or who misreads a wolf and defends him can all find themselves in my crosshairs.

And that I’m subconsciously stubborn out of fear of feeling dumb. Like I would rather lynch a town Jay and say “well he played a crap game defending a wolf on D1. I was justified” than let scum Jay escape and be beaten by a player I had dead to rights.

I’m actually really fine with being fooled if a wolf just plays a damn good game. It’s impressive. It’s fun. I dislike the idea of me having the win in the bag and a wolf or my own self doubt talk me out of a win I should have.

So I’m trying to take that into consideration when looking at Jay. Because while I may feel better being wrong in one way over being wrong in the other, I really want to play my best game.

Which makes Jay’s coaching a good strategy to get me to reconsider him regardless of alignment.

But I really like everyone voting for Tony before Jay. Jay did his patented interactive reads and came out with net positives on all those players.

Epi feels good atm. Maybe I’m being dumb.

LC and Sprityo and Creature just haven’t said much. I have reads on them but I’m far from confident there.

Gonna reread why people think Tony was bussed and see if that’s convincing at all.

[Dragomir]

I will try to look at Tony and make a smart vote. That's about all I can offer.

What do you think about Rej?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

A brief argument of my innocence before I move on to burying others. From where I sit, I feel like I am the person most responsible for TSP's lynch and that matters on a day 1 in which nobody really got put under all that much duress, meaning that if I and TSP were wolves together the obvious and simple move would have been for us to introduce or push an alternative wagon and with my thread control capacity I would have found it pretty bloody easy to create a mislynch. I introduced the original TSP suspicion and when things were moving towards counter subjects I am the one that reintroduced the TSP wagon. I might have briefly doubted myself, but I ultimately ended up revoting him in a manner that only sought to reduce the credit that I would have gained. I don't think that it makes any sense for wolf me to have chosen to bus at all, let alone not done so thoroughly and convincingly. If there is one thing that is not really part of my scum game it's bussing. I am more of a team win without loss kind of person.

Some of this is fine (not being a half-hearted busser), but the notion that you don't/wouldn't bus is not something I take seriously. I specifically remember you saying in a recent game here that in a small game, you would be open to just bussing a teammate Day 1 and riding the credit home -- it only takes a few misses after the bus.

[Dragomir]

My biggest weakness as a hunter is admittedly that I take the obvious route. Hard bussing can fool me. A townie that looks inconsistent or frozen or opportunistic or who misreads a wolf and defends him can all find themselves in my crosshairs.

And that I’m subconsciously stubborn out of fear of feeling dumb. Like I would rather lynch a town Jay and say “well he played a crap game defending a wolf on D1. I was justified” than let scum Jay escape and be beaten by a player I had dead to rights.

I’m actually really fine with being fooled if a wolf just plays a damn good game. It’s impressive. It’s fun. I dislike the idea of me having the win in the bag and a wolf or my own self doubt talk me out of a win I should have.

Well damn. We're much more similar than I thought.

[MacDougall]

In the context of a bus, it makes sense that there was an attempt to introduce a counterwagon before the bussing decision was made. It also would have not occurred until the counterwagon was truly busted. The only counterwagon that was intentionally and ruthlessly thrown out on day 1 that I can recall (because it was me who did it), was the Jack/Nutella push on Jay. So looking into who framed up the counterwagons that manifested after TSP's initial suspicion is probably where to look. That would be Jack/Nut's insistence towards lynching Jay and perhaps Jay's attempt to lynch Rej.

So I would say Jack/Nutella are very much worth looking into. That Epi has narrowed it down to me/Nutella, leans me towards thinking that it was Nutella sheeping Jack who is the guilty one, rather than Jack actually coming up with El Capitano del Civiliana as a legitimate day 1 mislynch candidate out of nowhere.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Tony got bussed. I'm sold. He's waving flags at his accusers and trying to mask which one did it.

Jay’s late vote aside, my problem is that the Tony wagon is exactly all my townreads before Tony flipped.

I agree Tony went into antispew somewhere around the point he voted for Jay.

I agree with both of you in that I do think that Tony was bussed, but I do not think that it makes sense to have been a decision that was made before he was placed under pressure. I don't think it makes sense for me to have both introduced the suspicion and then bussed, but at some point I can buy that he and his partner started to feel like it was a lost cause and it turned into a bus, and that is exactly how I felt in the heat of the moment when I belaboured the point that I thought you were doing exactly that.

Yeah but I’m town.

I get that Tony was a lost cause at some point so maybe that’s a good look for Epi not voting for him.

But why is Tony’s partner not one of the players absent at EOD?

[MacDougall]

A brief argument of my innocence before I move on to burying others. From where I sit, I feel like I am the person most responsible for TSP's lynch and that matters on a day 1 in which nobody really got put under all that much duress, meaning that if I and TSP were wolves together the obvious and simple move would have been for us to introduce or push an alternative wagon and with my thread control capacity I would have found it pretty bloody easy to create a mislynch. I introduced the original TSP suspicion and when things were moving towards counter subjects I am the one that reintroduced the TSP wagon. I might have briefly doubted myself, but I ultimately ended up revoting him in a manner that only sought to reduce the credit that I would have gained. I don't think that it makes any sense for wolf me to have chosen to bus at all, let alone not done so thoroughly and convincingly. If there is one thing that is not really part of my scum game it's bussing. I am more of a team win without loss kind of person.

Some of this is fine (not being a half-hearted busser), but the notion that you don't/wouldn't bus is not something I take seriously. I specifically remember you saying in a recent game here that in a small game, you would be open to just bussing a teammate Day 1 and riding the credit home -- it only takes a few misses after the bus.

Meh it's wifom either way. I like TSP and have played as scum with him before and we did very well. If I rolled wolf with him my strategy would always be to work with him and just push mislynches. But yeah wifom, moving on.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

“well he played a crap game defending a wolf on D1. I was justified”

I have played an excellent civilian game to this point, and no I am not joking.

Gonna reread why people think Tony was bussed and see if that’s convincing at all.

My initial instinct with regard to this is contextual. There were exactly zero minutes in all of Day 1 in which Tony was truly safe. Until the very last moment with Epignosis, nobody read him as a civilian -- not me, not Mac, not anyone. There were little points here and there that gave people doubts as is often the case with people checking every angle they can, but he was never safe.

So why does a mafioso protect him? What? That's nonsense. The only reason I can see Epignosis doing it is his disdain for bussing. Otherwise I find it much easier to associate the Tony lynch with either a bus or with teammate(s) who were on sideline wagons.

[Dragomir]

I won't be of much him right now as I got a shitload of homework to do which are all due tomorrow. As of right now, here's my rainbow.

Jay
Epi
Nutella
Sprityo
Long Con
MacDougall

Creature
Jack
Rej

Why am I a different and less green shade of green than everyone else? That seems weird to me...

Cause you're my weakest town read.

[Epignosis]

I will try to look at Tony and make a smart vote. That's about all I can offer.

What do you think about Rej?

Hate the bastard. Kidding.

But I have to reread. We have a dead mafia member. I'll chime in. Promise.

[Jackofhearts2005]

In the context of a bus, it makes sense that there was an attempt to introduce a counterwagon before the bussing decision was made. It also would have not occurred until the counterwagon was truly busted. The only counterwagon that was intentionally and ruthlessly thrown out on day 1 that I can recall (because it was me who did it), was the Jack/Nutella push on Jay. So looking into who framed up the counterwagons that manifested after TSP's initial suspicion is probably where to look. That would be Jack/Nut's insistence towards lynching Jay and perhaps Jay's attempt to lynch Rej.

So I would say Jack/Nutella are very much worth looking into. That Epi has narrowed it down to me/Nutella, leans me towards thinking that it was Nutella sheeping Jack who is the guilty one, rather than Jack actually coming up with El Capitano del Civiliana as a legitimate day 1 mislynch candidate out of nowhere.

And yet I vetoed Rej and Creature wagons.

I really don’t see scum Nutella so far either.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Three seconds into Day 1, Tony had three votes on his face.

Who protects that teammate?