Dogs vs. Cats [END]

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Interactions: Rej and Turnip Head -- he's dead but whatever here you go

Rej

Spoiler: show

I am torn between a pressure vote on Michelle/Sprityo and solidifying the lynch on Drago. But if I won't like the flip I will pretty much feel bad.
Another option is voting Turnip Head because I feel they haven't given enough reads this DP to read them back properly.
Turnip do you have some input on others? Votes have been moved to Speedchuck for example. I didn't like how he voted me so I question @speedchuck if his vote on me is locked?


okay addition after Michelles read on me:
@Michelle I would always @ you, sadly we haven't played much games fully together, I often leave in the early stages. xD
I need more reads from you tho, and I sadly know nothing about your scumplay I feel.

This came after TH had already called Rej a cat. Rej never acknowledged that, not even here when he griped about TH's lack of reads. This looks like a spam read forced onto a low poster.

~~~

Turnip Head

Spoiler: show

Drago is town

Rej is cat. "I don't understand the case" is scumtell sometimes

Two firsts. Turnip Head's first reads, and the first person to beef with Rej over this. I doubt TH, as Rej's teammate, decides he's going to do nothing for a while and then randomly drop in and crap on his head.

~~~

Conclusion: I doubt Turnip Head is a cat.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Dragomir
Long Con
novaselinenever
TonyStarkPrime

MacDougall
speedchuck

Dom
nutella

Epignosis

Michelle
sprityo

Fayt

[JaggedJimmyJay]

[VOTE: Fayt] aubergine

I know that's a whole pile of words, and upon seeing it you may be inclined to groan or eyeroll or whatever. I ask that y'all please just read it though. If nothing else, read only the conclusions, and when your interest is piqued read more.

I solved the game with these in Persona 5 on Night 1 and only a few people bothered to read or engage the stuff at all. I feel pretty damned good about these reads again. Y'all may disagree with something. I need to know if and what.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Mad props to [mention]Turnip Head[/mention], who may have done more with 8 posts than anyone in the history of Mafia.

[speedchuck]

I'll look over the details later, just hitting the summary right now due to work and other mafia.

Looks reasonable, but TSP should be lower in the rainbow at the end.

[Dragomir]

Long Con and Epi are Rej's buddies. I'm basing this off of reads. I'll explain in a sec.

[Michelle]

Spoiler: show

size=150]Interactions: Rej and Michelle[/size]

Rej

Spoiler: show

Michelle ok
JJJ ok
Novas ok
Sprityo ok
Macdougall ok

All others bad.
Sry I just start being active from work. Please tag me if something.

Also pardon me. Dunno why people always kill me or lynch me off as civillian. Yesterday I played 3 games at once. Today its just one lmao.

I will play this one with all my might and attention but today I rly need to chillax. I will allow everyone to read me as you pleasure tho.

Dont mind my gth reads I just skimmed through to have a base to work on with.

Okay.

Rather random name to be listed first here.

Spoiler: show

I don't get the scumreads on Dragomir. Sounds a bit forced by JJJ and novas, also it was quite a speedy jump.

Mac is looking OK

There was a thing with Sprityo and Michelle that bothered me. They just quoted each other and then dropped the D0 fluffing. It gave me a "picky" vibe.
I really wait for sprityo and Michelle post to deduct further about their alignment in the game.

Again about the above tizzy I feel like JJJ is town. It fits with his previous townplay of engagin agressively to collect as much data as possible from something, I like it and I wanna see more of it through the course of the game!

I am too tired to read a wolf in Drago or novas, in best case I want them to be town with us.

I will go sleep now, I hope I won't have to catch up that much pages when I am at work after I woke up.

Bleh. Michelle is mentioned here in a manner which invites vague shade, but only by association to sprityo. That association is nigh meaningless, and I don't care for this.

Spoiler: show

Oh and I gave Spirityo and Michelle an okay but this was before my eye picked the real possible intention of fluffdropping there.

Rej felt the need to jump back and qualify this. "Yes I said okay about them before, but but but" -- Kinda yuck.

Spoiler: show

@Dragomir we must be the best mafia players on earth when people always try to get us dayoned.

Yare yare I come and I have to catch up as fuck on mobile.



Ok switch in scenes: I am sitting on the toilette and have time now:
@JaggedJimmyJay I was neither civ nor scum reading Dragomir. Until you bring me a vital slip I wont scumread Dragomir that easily simple as that. Get used it.

Back to JJJ : I feel you are way too agressive to get a clear civ read from me. I dont know how scum profits from this but we got 2 fast wagons started up. And I feel town does not profit from these wagons. We still have time and need to wait for some replies.

So I have 3 votes on me. And I threw soft suspicion on Michelle and Sprityo. I feel like scum is voting me up in hope that my wagon becomes stronger EoD when others join up to generate an easy mislynch.

I will revisit novas post brb.

The highlighed sentence is a mess. The "And I threw soft suspicion on Michelle and sprityo" thing at first looks entirely irrelevant to the premise of the rest of it -- that he has votes and those votes are opportunistic. This brings to light why that bit may be featured though. Rej wants credit for beefing with those two "softly", and moreover he wants the people voting for him to look bad by extension with respect to those two. By attacking Rej they were implicitly defending Michelle/sprityo. Another moment I don't like.

Spoiler: show

OOOOOOOOOOOH, I didn't knew what "spew" means until I read your explanations below. Omg thanks, now I can read the situation better.
This is my bad and a new interaction I should consider.

As for nutella I don't find any scum tells or scummy approaches by her towards some other player.
Now I think Mac and Fayt are getting more interesting for me.

I can't get more reads at this point as I rely on Sprityo and Michelles reads.

I will look at Long Con and then I looked at everyone.

No need for Dom ISO, that guy looks pretty townish since he became active in the Drago suspicion train.
But I ask myself if @Dom has some other reads, like some read on Mac (bringing back Mac because I think Dom was asked about Mac before and he had no read about him back then).

Quite the wet fart at this point.

Spoiler: show

I am torn between a pressure vote on Michelle/Sprityo and solidifying the lynch on Drago. But if I won't like the flip I will pretty much feel bad.
Another option is voting Turnip Head because I feel they haven't given enough reads this DP to read them back properly.
Turnip do you have some input on others? Votes have been moved to Speedchuck for example. I didn't like how he voted me so I question speedchuck if his vote on me is locked?


okay addition after Michelles read on me:
Michelle I would always @ you, sadly we haven't played much games fully together, I often leave in the early stages. xD
I need more reads from you tho, and I sadly know nothing about your scumplay I feel.

"torn"

"pressure vote"

Meh.

The highlighted bit would be relatively creative mafia-mafia chatter at least. That doesn't mean a lot to me, but it's something.

~~~

Michelle

Spoiler: show

I don't get the scumreads on Dragomir. Sounds a bit forced by JJJ and novas, also it was quite a speedy jump.

Mac is looking OK

There was a thing with Sprityo and Michelle that bothered me. They just quoted each other and then dropped the D0 fluffing. It gave me a "picky" vibe.
I really wait for @sprityo and @Michelle post to deduct further about their alignment in the game.

Again about the above tizzy I feel like JJJ is town. It fits with his previous townplay of engagin agressively to collect as much data as possible from something, I like it and I wanna see more of it through the course of the game!

I am too tired to read a wolf in Drago or novas, in best case I want them to be town with us.

I will go sleep now, I hope I won't have to catch up that much pages when I am at work after I woke up.

Sorry about inactivity i was coming back from vacation and had a hard day. Going to catch up asap and @ you with reads.

This exists.

Spoiler: show

Can someone tell me what's up before i start reading? Is close to my sleep hour and i would prefere direct interaction.

Dragomir and Rej are currently the lead wagons, as you can see. You could start by assessing each of them.

Dragomir
Rej

Decide how you feel. If you'd prefer to vote neither, indicate someone you suspect in their stead.

Also about Rej, he pinged me to see me posting. This is not a scum behaviour and that post, the first i've read, sounded okay. Not a Rej scum read yet either. Ftr anytime i was villager i could read him and he knows it. Scum Rej would not @ me.

Welp this is an egg-on-face post. It happens to the best of us. I don't care for it though. An "@" is an extremely frivolous reason to exonerate a player.

Spoiler: show

Also about Rej, he pinged me to see me posting. This is not a scum behaviour and that post, the first i've read, sounded okay. Not a Rej scum read yet either. Ftr anytime i was villager i could read him and he knows it. Scum Rej would not @ me.

Do you have a past with Rej or is this just commenting on general scum behavior, with Rej trying to further conversation instead of letting you stay quiet?

yes. we played few games on my homesite and his homesite. He is a very intuitive and good reader when he's villager. This is not pocketing i saw him as host and i was impressed

Eh.

Spoiler: show

trusting Rej i will vote with him.

This is at least quite brazen -- it came 6 minutes prior to the deadline and helped to make the Long Con wagon a viable counter. By the numbers it's bad. By tone I actually don't find myself that disturbed.

~~~

Conclusion: Michelle has a lot to answer for. It's not difficult to see her as a cat. I am not completely convinced of this, but she's certainly a suspect.

i will answer in the morning more detailed. Reading not all posts wasn't helpful at all.
I am glad for the cat lynch because i have now a strong feeling the CV on Long Con is for a villager (sorry for my vote i really misread Rej) and so we have a base to work with.

I had at the last post of Rej a moment of block and i was like this is TMI, but because i knew is Eod and on phone i don't have speed i was a frozen villager :/

Also i am a dog. I can only prove my towniness by my flip so if you really need it you can punish me for bad reads. I explained at Eod i didn't know when the day started and this was silly because i took as reference the day 0 and i thought the following night has 24 hours. Hence i didn't realise Eod is so close.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'll look over the details later, just hitting the summary right now due to work and other mafia.

Looks reasonable, but TSP should be lower in the rainbow at the end.

I don't blame you for thinking so. I don't see any universe where TSP is a mafioso and only makes two posts Day 1.

[Dragomir]

Interactions: Rej and Long Con

Rej

Spoiler: show

wait, Epignosis is also playing?

just looked at Long Con. He went like -> interaction with JJJ/push against Dragomir -> distancing(?)
Long Con did you distance yourself there?

What do you mean by "distancing" here?

there was a big time span between his last two posts, it could be possible that he gave fuel to the Drago wagon, he also keeps his vote on him and has yet to revisit the cases with new information. this is what you are supposed to do when you place votes and plan to change them.
could be that LC is busy, I also don't know his meta, could be that it's a scumtell, they way he voted and then didn't come back to anything, and he doesn't make it in time to justify probably. the Long Con lynch would be a gamble, but a gamble with justification. you understand me? xd what do you think?

also is TSP a non poster?

Did Long Con distance from himself?

Spoiler: show

Rej, as far as I am concerned your vote is on Dragomir right now. You're exploring ideas and asking questions, but the day is over in less than 40 minutes. Who do you want to lynch?

I have my vote nowhere for exactly such a moment. We can agree on doing the Long Con gamble lynch. Else my lynch would be wasted on others I feel, in a sense that we can't get enough votes maybe.
So my vote on Long Con should be bringing us forward.
[VOTE: Long Con] aubergine

Gonna take a smoke, gonna check all 5 minute instances.

This vote came a moment before I placed a late vote on Dragomir -- I was trying to bait Rej with my own vote, but as it happens he was "baited" to the Long Con wagon first. I don't see many worlds here where Long Con is not a civilian.

> Two wagons: Rej and Dragomir
> A third wagon slowly emerges: Long Con
> Rej never votes Dragomir
> Rej votes Long Con when the wagon becomes viable

Whatever Dragomir's alignment, I highly doubt Rej specifically waits for this opportunity to vote for his own teammate.

~~~

Long Con

Spoiler: show

I think Fayt is Civ. I like that point about calling me a "gamble". Sounds like subconscious baddie-speak for "It's going to be a Civ lynch".

Long Con encourages the Rej wagon right along while he keeps himself cozy on the Dragomir wagon. The thing about "subconscious baddie-speak" just looks like b/s.

Where did I encourage the Rej wagon?

Rej said the gamble thing which you just pooped on.

Oh, that was Rej? I was kind of skimming.

Long Con's skimming error here was probably real. As such, he wasn't paying close attention to the things that Rej specifically was saying. That's nice for him.

~~~

Conclusion: I doubt Long Con is teamed with Rej.

I think it's clear that Rej wanted to take me down with him by how he read me. He voted LC up knowing that he'd get lynched anyway to distance from his buddy. It's crystal clear that Rej didn't really want to save himself so he votes LC to make his buddy appear more town.

[Michelle]

Long Con and Epi are Rej's buddies. I'm basing this off of reads. I'll explain in a sec.

No. I can't imagine Long Con other than villager.

Epi may be, i am waiting for your explanation

[Dragomir]

Long Con and Epi are Rej's buddies. I'm basing this off of reads. I'll explain in a sec.

No. I can't imagine Long Con other than villager.

Epi may be, i am waiting for your explanation

Why not?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

i will answer in the morning more detailed. Reading not all posts wasn't helpful at all.
I am glad for the cat lynch because i have now a strong feeling the CV on Long Con is for a villager (sorry for my vote i really misread Rej) and so we have a base to work with.

I had at the last post of Rej a moment of block and i was like this is TMI, but because i knew is Eod and on phone i don't have speed i was a frozen villager :/

Also i am a dog. I can only prove my towniness by my flip so if you really need it you can punish me for bad reads. I explained at Eod i didn't know when the day started and this was silly because i took as reference the day 0 and i thought the following night has 24 hours. Hence i didn't realise Eod is so close.

I'll give you time to address things however you want to do so. I will state though that I am not especially concerned with bad reads. Shit happens. There's greater nuance to my suspicions, and you can get to that when you're able.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Do your thing Dragomir and I'll see what you have to say. I have LC as a solid dog based on the analysis I just posted last page.

[Dragomir]

You know, maybe I won't actually explain the reads on LC and Epi so don't get your hopes up about it.

[Dragomir]

I will explain LC though. Guarantee that.

[Dragomir]

More later than sooner though.

[Fayt]

On mobile so if I'm missing something with the case on me, I will respond later on pc.

As I stated before, it's a terrible reach to say I was distancing. Mac's defense at the time was that only Rej is actively saying Dragomir is town when TH who also said the same when I made that post. Does that mean I was distancing from TH (who flipped dog)

As for the bussing argument, the reason I placed my vote on Rej so late at the end because the word gamble triggered many alarms in my head and the long con lynch oddly picking up at the end when the votes are incredibly close. In my small experience with playing mafia, they're trying to save a teammate.

[Michelle]

Long Con and Epi are Rej's buddies. I'm basing this off of reads. I'll explain in a sec.

No. I can't imagine Long Con other than villager.

Epi may be, i am waiting for your explanation

Why not?

I have skimmed his Iso before voting yday with the wrong idea Rej is villager. I came to the conclusion they can't have same AI so i voted LC.
BUT because Rej flipped mafia then i am sure that LC is villager.
Is midnight at me, i can talk more in the morning and answer at any question.

[Michelle]

More later than sooner though.

@me with it please.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think it's clear that Rej wanted to take me down with him by how he read me. He voted LC up knowing that he'd get lynched anyway to distance from his buddy. It's crystal clear that Rej didn't really want to save himself so he votes LC to make his buddy appear more town.

I'd like to know how everyone else feels about LC and the developments of the wagons late in Day 1.

[Michelle]

You know, maybe I won't actually explain the reads on LC and Epi so don't get your hopes up about it.

i want more the Epi reads tbh, don't forget about it. It's not about my hopes it's about your alignament in this game.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Another thing to note is that Rej was the Siamese cat. I would say that role is the weakest of the three cat roles. It's essentially a mafia doctor, which is only relevant in extremely specific cases when a vigilante threatens (or the independent in the original iteration of the game). Otherwise there's a Godfather-roleblocker and a role cop-strongmanner. These have utility every night and are probably more important to keep alive. So if Long Con (or Dragomir) is a mafioso as a Rej counterwagon, then his egging on of the Dragomir wagon and his actual vote in the Long Con wagon would have to threaten a stronger role than his own.

Such strategic insights depend upon optimal play, which we all know isn't always reality, but it's still something that a theory should account for.

[Michelle]

I think it's clear that Rej wanted to take me down with him by how he read me. He voted LC up knowing that he'd get lynched anyway to distance from his buddy. It's crystal clear that Rej didn't really want to save himself so he votes LC to make his buddy appear more town.

This ia too much of a strech to think Rej was voting a scumbuddy in a small game. Rej tried hard to save himself by pocketing me and i was blind enough to vote his counter vagon (CV).
He could attract other undecise townie in that.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

On mobile so if I'm missing something with the case on me, I will respond later on pc.

As I stated before, it's a terrible reach to say I was distancing. Mac's defense at the time was that only Rej is actively saying Dragomir is town when TH who also said the same when I made that post. Does that mean I was distancing from TH (who flipped dog)

As for the bussing argument, the reason I placed my vote on Rej so late at the end because the word gamble triggered many alarms in my head and the long con lynch oddly picking up at the end when the votes are incredibly close. In my small experience with playing mafia, they're trying to save a teammate.

I'll give you the chance to answer more fully when you can get to your computer. Until then this leaves me with arguments already present in the thread -- I'm just left to mull over that as I already would be. I appreciate the initial response in any event.

[Michelle]

JJJ can i see somewhere the timing of the votes ? i guess not being a poll but i have to ask.
I wish to know when the Drago wagon appeard and when and who started to vote Long Con. Or maybe soemone can tell me this.

[Michelle]

i can't stay awake anymore my brain needs sleep
see you in the mornimg

[JaggedJimmyJay]

JJJ can i see somewhere the timing of the votes ? i guess not being a poll but i have to ask.
I wish to know when the Drago wagon appeard and when and who started to vote Long Con. Or maybe soemone can tell me this.

We're only able to account for the timing of votes that people called in the thread (by searching for the word "aubergine", tagged along every vote). Many votes may have been uncalled, so we're forced to piece it together uncertainly.

[Epignosis]

Got caught up during the quiet Night phase.

I might have known I'd get two pages of 3J by the time my ass sat down in my chair to check out Day 2.

[MacDougall]

I voted for Fayt because

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Let's please do something with this time.

[Epignosis]

I won't be available until probably after nine or ten o'clock.

[MacDougall]

I won't be available until probably after nine or ten o'clock.

Same

[TonyStarkPrime]

I won’t be able to be around from 9 to 5 yesterday and probably not again from now until maybe 8 tomorrow morning I will participate In this as much as I can starting after that but for now I’d really like it if I could have a few summaries by tomorrow morning

[nutella]

I think it's clear that Rej wanted to take me down with him by how he read me. He voted LC up knowing that he'd get lynched anyway to distance from his buddy. It's crystal clear that Rej didn't really want to save himself so he votes LC to make his buddy appear more town.

I'd like to know how everyone else feels about LC and the developments of the wagons late in Day 1.

I don't want to discount the possibility that they were w/w wagons. It seems unlikely on the surface, but I have no reason to clear LC.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'll see what Long Con has to say for himself.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Spoiler: show

Rej, as far as I am concerned your vote is on Dragomir right now. You're exploring ideas and asking questions, but the day is over in less than 40 minutes. Who do you want to lynch?

I have my vote nowhere for exactly such a moment. We can agree on doing the Long Con gamble lynch. Else my lynch would be wasted on others I feel, in a sense that we can't get enough votes maybe.
So my vote on Long Con should be bringing us forward.
[VOTE: Long Con] aubergine

Gonna take a smoke, gonna check all 5 minute instances.

This vote came a moment before I placed a late vote on Dragomir -- I was trying to bait Rej with my own vote, but as it happens he was "baited" to the Long Con wagon first. I don't see many worlds here where Long Con is not a civilian.

> Two wagons: Rej and Dragomir
> A third wagon slowly emerges: Long Con
> Rej never votes Dragomir
> Rej votes Long Con when the wagon becomes viable

Whatever Dragomir's alignment, I highly doubt Rej specifically waits for this opportunity to vote for his own teammate.

This is the core of my read. I grant that Rej has shown the tendency to do Unusual Things™ so we'll see.

[MacDougall]

Can someone make a list of ISO links please?

[nutella]

Can someone make a list of ISO links please?

They're in the op no?

[MacDougall]

Yes they are.

Btw I think Epi and Fayt are both Mafia.

[MacDougall]

Pretty sure the game is over. [mention]Epignosis[/mention] do you want to give up again?

[Epignosis]

I didn't "give up" the last time. I was caught. Doing anything else would have wasted everyone's time. I do not believe in wasting people's time.

If you want something to chew on, how about this: I would not condone the killing of Turnip Head Night 1. I don't kill the ones I've missed so soon.

[MacDougall]

[mention]JaggedJimmyJay[/mention] so take away your empirical analysis for a second and tell me if there is anyone/s in your green pile that are scummy regardless of their status being improved by the Rej flip. If you can express why that'd also be helpful. If your POE is accurate I think that Epi/Fayt are scummy and I can ping clear everyone else below the middle.

[MacDougall]

I didn't "give up" the last time. I was caught. Doing anything else would have wasted everyone's time. I do not believe in wasting people's time.

If you want something to chew on, how about this: I would not condone the killing of Turnip Head Night 1. I don't kill the ones I've missed so soon.

I know I was just being cheeky haha.

Fair fair. I'll take it under advisement.

Do you think Jay is town?

[Epignosis]

I didn't "give up" the last time. I was caught. Doing anything else would have wasted everyone's time. I do not believe in wasting people's time.

If you want something to chew on, how about this: I would not condone the killing of Turnip Head Night 1. I don't kill the ones I've missed so soon.

I know I was just being cheeky haha.

Fair fair. I'll take it under advisement.

Do you think Jay is town?

I do, but I have grievances.

[nutella]

I didn't "give up" the last time. I was caught. Doing anything else would have wasted everyone's time. I do not believe in wasting people's time.

If you want something to chew on, how about this: I would not condone the killing of Turnip Head Night 1. I don't kill the ones I've missed so soon.

I know I was just being cheeky haha.

Fair fair. I'll take it under advisement.

Do you think Jay is town?

I do, but I have grievances.

Epi's fine.

[MacDougall]

I didn't "give up" the last time. I was caught. Doing anything else would have wasted everyone's time. I do not believe in wasting people's time.

If you want something to chew on, how about this: I would not condone the killing of Turnip Head Night 1. I don't kill the ones I've missed so soon.

I know I was just being cheeky haha.

Fair fair. I'll take it under advisement.

Do you think Jay is town?

I do, but I have grievances.

Any different to the ones you always do?

[MacDougall]

I didn't "give up" the last time. I was caught. Doing anything else would have wasted everyone's time. I do not believe in wasting people's time.

If you want something to chew on, how about this: I would not condone the killing of Turnip Head Night 1. I don't kill the ones I've missed so soon.

I know I was just being cheeky haha.

Fair fair. I'll take it under advisement.

Do you think Jay is town?

I do, but I have grievances.

Epi's fine.

I agree, I hate defenses like "I'd not kill TH" but it's true lol.

The noose slips tighter around Fayt's throat.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

JaggedJimmyJay so take away your empirical analysis for a second and tell me if there is anyone/s in your green pile that are scummy regardless of their status being improved by the Rej flip. If you can express why that'd also be helpful. If your POE is accurate I think that Epi/Fayt are scummy and I can ping clear everyone else below the middle.

If I had to name one green that would not be green absent Rej, it'd be Long Con. Dragomir and speedchuck had their moments earlier, but I think they're fine even at face value now.

I could expand it to the pseudo-greens and say Dom. He and nutella are similar in my eyes here; nutella strikes me as more authentic overall. Dom doesn't necessarily ping me, but I also can't conclusively clear him with much.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

There was the bit that I talked about in Michelle's and sprityo's analyses that I thought made them a decent one-or-the-other pairing. I emerged from the night with a world view of Fayt and sprityo/Michelle as the most likely team. Michelle seems okay by tone; sprityo isn't here -- I'd call the latter a bigger suspect.

[MacDougall]

I agree that Michelle reads quite good tonally. She used meta to defend Rej which... for some reason made me feel better about her.