Inception [Inception Phase 4]

#1151

[mention]Pawn Lelouch[/mention]
Okay, I've gone through your responses and I'm largely satisfied, so long as you actually return with that Epignosis case.

I have one additional follow-up before I get out of your hair: why are you placing Colin above Sprityo? I get that Colin got forced out of the bottom by Epi falling, and I also get that you don't feel that Sprityo's outburst last EOD is worth much, but my feel of the two of them is that Sprityo has done significantly more to help solve than Colin, especially today - note him pointing out the "but how would they know he was the doublevoter" flaw in my reasoning. That kind of catch takes real thought and analysis: I've seen little of similar depth from Colin. Sort by post count today also backs up my impression. Are you sure you've really thought your current PoE through?

#1152

And I've now read your updated Rabbit case and that looks good too. Scales are definitely tipping towards Epi being the scum in your pair. I don't like that because it means Dom's probably town, but I can deal.

#1153

Evenstar wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:55 pm Pawn Lelouch
Okay, I've gone through your responses and I'm largely satisfied, so long as you actually return with that Epignosis case.

I have one additional follow-up before I get out of your hair: why are you placing Colin above Sprityo? I get that Colin got forced out of the bottom by Epi falling, and I also get that you don't feel that Sprityo's outburst last EOD is worth much, but my feel of the two of them is that Sprityo has done significantly more to help solve than Colin, especially today - note him pointing out the "but how would they know he was the doublevoter" flaw in my reasoning. That kind of catch takes real thought and analysis: I've seen little of similar depth from Colin. Sort by post count today also backs up my impression. Are you sure you've really thought your current PoE through?

I fully admit those are the two float spot players.

Still, my take on it ultimately is that Sprit does have more posts and content certainly, with some decent individual posts. My concern is that when I read through the ISO wholesale it just feels so bleh and lifeless in a way that most of the other players don't. Couple that with the lack of agenda I read from Colin (admittedly likely due to a lack of posts) and it's enough to put him slightly ahead of Sprit.

And planning to if I can. Deadline to show at the court is at 12:45 so I'm assuming that we start at 1ish. And I don't think a mock will take 4 hours to go through so I should have time post mock to properly construct the case before EOD.

#1154

Looks like I've got some reading to do on my way home from work.

#1155

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:07 pm
Evenstar wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:55 pm Pawn Lelouch
Okay, I've gone through your responses and I'm largely satisfied, so long as you actually return with that Epignosis case.

I have one additional follow-up before I get out of your hair: why are you placing Colin above Sprityo? I get that Colin got forced out of the bottom by Epi falling, and I also get that you don't feel that Sprityo's outburst last EOD is worth much, but my feel of the two of them is that Sprityo has done significantly more to help solve than Colin, especially today - note him pointing out the "but how would they know he was the doublevoter" flaw in my reasoning. That kind of catch takes real thought and analysis: I've seen little of similar depth from Colin. Sort by post count today also backs up my impression. Are you sure you've really thought your current PoE through?
I fully admit those are the two float spot players.

Still, my take on it ultimately is that Sprit does have more posts and content certainly, with some decent individual posts. My concern is that when I read through the ISO wholesale it just feels so bleh and lifeless in a way that most of the other players don't. Couple that with the lack of agenda I read from Colin (admittedly likely due to a lack of posts) and it's enough to put him slightly ahead of Sprit.

And planning to if I can. Deadline to show at the court is at 12:45 so I'm assuming that we start at 1ish. And I don't think a mock will take 4 hours to go through so I should have time post mock to properly construct the case before EOD.

Give me the abstract now if you can.

#1156

Evenstar wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:10 pm
Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:07 pm
Evenstar wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:55 pm Pawn Lelouch
Okay, I've gone through your responses and I'm largely satisfied, so long as you actually return with that Epignosis case.

I have one additional follow-up before I get out of your hair: why are you placing Colin above Sprityo? I get that Colin got forced out of the bottom by Epi falling, and I also get that you don't feel that Sprityo's outburst last EOD is worth much, but my feel of the two of them is that Sprityo has done significantly more to help solve than Colin, especially today - note him pointing out the "but how would they know he was the doublevoter" flaw in my reasoning. That kind of catch takes real thought and analysis: I've seen little of similar depth from Colin. Sort by post count today also backs up my impression. Are you sure you've really thought your current PoE through?
I fully admit those are the two float spot players.

Still, my take on it ultimately is that Sprit does have more posts and content certainly, with some decent individual posts. My concern is that when I read through the ISO wholesale it just feels so bleh and lifeless in a way that most of the other players don't. Couple that with the lack of agenda I read from Colin (admittedly likely due to a lack of posts) and it's enough to put him slightly ahead of Sprit.

And planning to if I can. Deadline to show at the court is at 12:45 so I'm assuming that we start at 1ish. And I don't think a mock will take 4 hours to go through so I should have time post mock to properly construct the case before EOD.
Give me the abstract now if you can.

Basically a combo of the misinterpretation of my maintaining the status quo in the #909 post that reads as a drive by. In part that he is the only possible scum player where I think Nook would be the prime target, for the reasons listed.

Once I got into the Epi scum mindset, then his push on iaafr looks a lot worse when coupled with my view of the Nook NK intent. Just attacking to try and chip at the town core and remove clears while avoiding potential docs.

There's likely more once I properly dive into the depths of his ISO but that's all I have time for rn unfortunately.

#1157

Alright I’m caught up and here for the next twenty minutes or so. AMA.

#1158

Also I want to know where [mention]ColinIsCool[/mention] and [mention]Master Radishes[/mention] are at since I’ve barely talked to you today.

#1159

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:14 pm Also I want to know where @ColinIsCool and @Master Radishes are at since I’ve barely talked to you today.

Was at work. Now making dinner. Have finished reading up on Pawn and Eva's...spat. Formulating thoughts.

AMA.

#1160

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:15 pm
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:14 pm Also I want to know where @ColinIsCool and @Master Radishes are at since I’ve barely talked to you today.
Was at work. Now making dinner. Have finished reading up on Pawn and Eva's...spat. Formulating thoughts.

AMA.

Those are exactly the thoughts I’m looking for.

Would also like some thoughts on the Rabbit/Dom/Me exchanges from last night.

#1161

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:19 pm
Master Radishes wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:15 pm
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:14 pm Also I want to know where @ColinIsCool and @Master Radishes are at since I’ve barely talked to you today.
Was at work. Now making dinner. Have finished reading up on Pawn and Eva's...spat. Formulating thoughts.

AMA.
Those are exactly the thoughts I’m looking for.

Would also like some thoughts on the Rabbit/Dom/Me exchanges from last night.

I'll trade you my thoughts for your thoughts.

As for you/Dom/Rabbit, I'll need to reread later. Dinner first.

#1162

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:20 pm
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:19 pm
Master Radishes wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:15 pm
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:14 pm Also I want to know where @ColinIsCool and @Master Radishes are at since I’ve barely talked to you today.
Was at work. Now making dinner. Have finished reading up on Pawn and Eva's...spat. Formulating thoughts.

AMA.
Those are exactly the thoughts I’m looking for.

Would also like some thoughts on the Rabbit/Dom/Me exchanges from last night.
I'll trade you my thoughts for your thoughts.

As for you/Dom/Rabbit, I'll need to reread later. Dinner first.

The spiciest of Pawn thoughts were not exactly Kotomine level mapu tofu. I find myself unmoved.

I found a lot of Eva’s questions to be worthless ie nitpicky about things that wouldn’t be alignment indicative...and then Pawn went along with it anyway. I think that spews Eva town if Pawn is scum (like she needs the help). I’m not 100% sure what it means that Pawn went along with everything so calmly. He’s telling us that his meta is calm and calculated regardless of alignment.

#1163

Okay, so, this may end up jumbled, but,

Regarding the accusations thrown at Pawn, I felt he fended them off well. He clearly has had reasons for all he's said and done this game, which doesn't surprise me given his well-reasoned posts throughout this round and the last. That said, I don't think any of that clears him per se. That seems to be the sort of player he is regardless of alignment.

One thing that made me feel a bit better about Pawn was when I earleir suggested he was a deepwolf and he immediately understood why I thought it. He explained to me what was in my head, which suggests very strongly (and he has said as much) that he has come across these sort of tinfoil thoughts before. Clearly my worries about him are ones other players in other games have had.

So in the end, I think I'm back to where I was with Pawn in the first place - not considering him for a lynch, but with lingering doubts.

As for Evenstar, whilst it's certainly not out of her scum range to do something like this, it does make me feel a bit better about her to see the fangs come out. One of my concerns with her behaviour lately has been how much she's been sitting back rather than pushing. I do think she 'piled on' a bit with illegitimate evidence, and I think she has backed down fairly quickly, but overall I think it's a good look for her.

So basically it feels more v/v to me than v/w. I certainly don't think it's w/w - there's no need for scum!Eva to do that to scum!Pawn considering the positions they were in.

#1164

So who’re your three atm?

I’m seeing a lot of townreads on consensus suspects or your former suspects in your iso.

#1165

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:38 pm So who’re your three atm?

I’m seeing a lot of townreads on consensus suspects or your former suspects in your iso.

I'm finding lots of reasons to townread people. That's half the battle!

#1166

In focusing on previous scumreads I'm finding reasons to townread instead. The only person I'm leaning definitely on the scum side right now is sprityo.

You're so null it bothers me. Dom has moved up in my books.

I think I need to reconsider Colin now. And Epi needs a reread too.

#1167

Actually, revised opinion of Jack - if he's a wolf, he's content to slank by, confident we won't end up on him. That world exists too still. But he's not at all trying to manipulate events in the way.

#1168

I mean, ngl, I can't even be confident that the spiny flip that Eva posted was accurate, she could've forged it and I'd be buying it.

but still not gonna sus into that world

#1169

I am also ultimately going to continue to give pawn a pass because he really is my stable rock and making more sense to me on almost everything than everyone else

so the last list of 5 I posted, remove pawn, and that's my 4

#1170

I have thoughts on Dom's posts on the last page but they're postgame thoughts.

#1171

the idiom "can dish it out but can't take it" strongly comes to mind though

#1172

I am at work, and unable to post much. I have meeting coming up soon (that includes a 50-slide Power Point about how to have a meeting

), but...

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:34 am
iaafr wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:26 am but i mean yeah your logics a bit weird

wouldnt keeping him alive to keep sussing the towncore sow suspicion on its own?

why would scum assume people would even remember nooks reads
Yes, but Nook was relatively low impact in the thread so he probably wouldn't make much progress and might even be convinced to change his mind. Better to go for the guarantee rather than a gamble.

Because it's good town play to look back at those who died to try and divine the intent as to why they died. Since there is always a discernible reason behind a scum nightkill. The trick is actually figuring it out. Plus remembering the reads of one of 14 other players is far easier than that of 29 other players. Especially since scum could potentially just point it out themselves in thread as a reason why Nook could have been a silencing kill. So there's a fair chance that town would easily remember the reads or scum would just state it themselves.

I'm basically assuming that Epi is scum based off this as I read into the kill more and more. If I'm right this is a kill that came at it from a methodical view, which fits my mental image of Epi's style and even is something he has stated in previous days.

...this is rubbish. Absolute rubbish.

First, the qualifiers indicate someone who knows what he is saying is rubbish. "Basically assuming" is equivocal language. "As I read into the kill more and more" is a vague way to make it sound as though this perspective bears credibility. It doesn't. This is an attempt to appear analytical. The little lecture that precedes the accusation rings hollow.

Second, Pawn, who knows nothing about me and has no prior experience with me, suggests that he can correctly peg me specifically as killing Nanook. Nonsense. In fact, if you remember, Nanook was among my top suspects coming into Day 2. From my perspective, the incessant posts begging for credit for lynching Dragomir looked too on the nose. If I were mafia, I would have been confident I could have gathered support for a Nanook lynch. No- Nanook would not have been in my top ten choices for a kill.

Third, the accusation is empty. Any victim could be a "methodical" choice for the Night kill. What makes the Nanook kill specifically a methodical choice (as opposed to, say, an Evenstar kill or a Pawn kill)? The accusation is based on multiple assumptions that don't even support it.

Fourth, the basis for this accusation against me is at present non-falsifiable. "If I'm right this is a kill that came at it from a methodical view" is nothing that can be proved or disproved until endgame.

This is rubbish.

#1173

pretty sure you just responded to the one part of pawns worldview that nobody was prone to fully buying anyway

but yea if you're concerned I agree that's pawns weakest case on any read he's made in this day

#1174

but it's so weak and weird that it's hard to imagine being scum agenda

but I can't rule it out as agenda because how else can pawn get to a lockscum read on epi as scum lol

#1175

Evenstar wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:59 pm And I've now read your updated Rabbit case and that looks good too. Scales are definitely tipping towards Epi being the scum in your pair. I don't like that because it means Dom's probably town, but I can deal.

[mention]Evenstar[/mention] why do you have epi/Dom not w/w

#1176

still also don't know if I can trust that pawn wouldn't be bussy in this situation when the mech seems to punish bussing less on multiple levels (no flip, no vote record)

#1177

current paranoid thought is that pawn created a bad push on his partner epi on purpose to reduce the chances epi gets voted off today

#1178

but yea I need pawn in this game to stay sane and if I voted pawn and it turns out he's town that'd be my unequivocal greatest regret of the game so gratz on the pocket hope you're town

#1179

Evenstar wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:55 pm Okay, I've gone through your responses and I'm largely satisfied, so long as you actually return with that Epignosis case.

I have one additional follow-up before I get out of your hair: why are you placing Colin above Sprityo? I get that Colin got forced out of the bottom by Epi falling, and I also get that you don't feel that Sprityo's outburst last EOD is worth much, but my feel of the two of them is that Sprityo has done significantly more to help solve than Colin, especially today - note him pointing out the "but how would they know he was the doublevoter" flaw in my reasoning. That kind of catch takes real thought and analysis: I've seen little of similar depth from Colin. Sort by post count today also backs up my impression. Are you sure you've really thought your current PoE through?

does it really take that much though

that's easily in the realm of stuff any scum player could think about

things that only take essentially pure logic and reasoning are always things I can't give cred for

#1180

I’m tired

#1181

people don't lose their faculties of logic when they roll scum, if anything, the avg player relies more on those things when scum as town

the type of depth of thought it takes to townclear somebody usually involves some level of sophistication or depth in the premises and perspective; the application of logic and reasoning itself is usually more a player thing than an alignment indicative thing

#1182

when scum than when town*

#1183

overreliance on logical consistency and words rationally holding up lead to losses to articulate scum players

so I try to avoid using those types of things

#1184

iaafr wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:11 pm I mean, ngl, I can't even be confident that the spiny flip that Eva posted was accurate, she could've forged it

Wait what

#1185

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:03 pm
iaafr wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:11 pm I mean, ngl, I can't even be confident that the spiny flip that Eva posted was accurate, she could've forged it
Wait what

I can't even remember if I remember the actual flip

true story

#1186

Rabbit, I assumed you knew the post.

#1187

Jfc I just finally closed the Word doc I had all my scum!Eva notes typed up in.

#1188

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:54 pm Actually, revised opinion of Jack - if he's a wolf, he's content to slank by, confident we won't end up on him. That world exists too still. But he's not at all trying to manipulate events in the way.

LeoStare.jpg

I know you’re saying this like “so Jack is probably town” but I still object to a characterization of me as “slanking” and “not trying to manipulate events” by someone with half my post and seemingly no scumreads.

#1189

I hate clutter on my computer and it needed to go and I was just going to follow your lead on that

#1190

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:04 pm Jfc I just finally closed the Word doc I had all my scum!Eva notes typed up in.

wait what

#1191

iaafr wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:05 pm
Master Radishes wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:04 pm Jfc I just finally closed the Word doc I had all my scum!Eva notes typed up in.
wait what

From earlier. I was building a case. Your read convinced me to leave it alone and I finally let it go.

Now you tell me you don't even know if that post is accurate?

#1192

this is hilarious so I regret nothing

#1193

let's just say even if that hardclear is removed I have Eva easily in my top tier above everyone else

but ya y'all can start sussing her again I'm sure thatll help the gamestate XDXD

#1194

#1195

I re-read the post. It doesn't look faked. Or rather, I think it would be faked differently if so.

I'm okay now.

#1196

if it's pawn eva and I'm hard scumsiding this game

can't pretend I'd really regret it, all things considered

#1197

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:05 pm
Master Radishes wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:54 pm Actually, revised opinion of Jack - if he's a wolf, he's content to slank by, confident we won't end up on him. That world exists too still. But he's not at all trying to manipulate events in the way.
LeoStare.jpg

I know you’re saying this like “so Jack is probably town” but I still object to a characterization of me as “slanking” and “not trying to manipulate events” by someone with half my post and seemingly no scumreads.

I had more reads in D1 and D2 than you ever did.

#1198

reads off reads off

post the reads you had d1 and d2, both of you

#1199

will say that one of my strongest points in radishes favor is how strongly he actually seems to believe his own reads

I remember in d2 he reacted to my bottom tier immediately by telling me he had four town in there

and the lingering suspicion of Eva and wanting to do due diligence there is incredibly Towny to me

#1200

iaafr wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:39 pm
Evenstar wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:59 pm And I've now read your updated Rabbit case and that looks good too. Scales are definitely tipping towards Epi being the scum in your pair. I don't like that because it means Dom's probably town, but I can deal.
@Evenstar why do you have epi/Dom not w/w

I don't feel like any sane scumteam just completely commits to trying to body you through the floor today.

Dom and Epi have both been extremely agressive towards you, and I just don't buy that a pair of wolves would be that brazen.

I could be wrong and Dom could just have piled onto his scumleader's case without really thinking about it, but... Frankly, I think Dom actually does think through his actions better than that. Plus, he's been acting weirdly buddyish at Epi, which is additional evidence they're not w/w.

Who threatens the subconscious mind?