Champions 2019 - Crisis on The Syndicate [GAME OVER]

[Dom]

Sabie
Mac
Ted

[MacDougall]

I really think Jack has massive teammate equity with Radishes and would be curious how you've arrived at the opposite conclusion?

Easy. Jack is town. Where is this equity you speak of?

Jack ended both the first days on competing wagons to MR. Few did. MR also didn't vote for Jack when there was ample opportunity. That's more than enough equity. Now you tell me how in spite of that they are not. That is how this works.

[MacDougall]

Sabie
Mac
Ted

You think I am teammates with Sabie? For real?

[Dom]

Bad Jack does not make the moves he made on nutella

[Sloonei]

Sloon--

your post confirms what i'm thinking about sabie.

I'd like to hear more from ted.

Yeah, the sabie stuff was my biggest takeaway there. It also felt good to cross TH off the list after independently arriving at a town read on him earlier, but that only eliminates TH from being a member of one of the teams. It’s still theoretically possible he’s on the other team. I’ll call it unlikely though.

[Dom]

Sabie
Mac
Ted

You think I am teammates with Sabie? For real?

There are two baddie teams, sweetie.

[Dom]

Sloon--

your post confirms what i'm thinking about sabie.

I'd like to hear more from ted.

Yeah, the sabie stuff was my biggest takeaway there. It also felt good to cross TH off the list after independently arriving at a town read on him earlier, but that only eliminates TH from being a member of one of the teams. It’s still theoretically possible he’s on the other team. I’ll call it unlikely though.

Oof. I was not liking TH at all today.

[tedxtr]

g-man and radishes are partners.

Oh boy do I love this read

Because you’re also on their team?

Yes i’m willingly bussing my team mates and nobody even wants to take my helping hand

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

By votes jack is a viable partner for radishes.

By tone he’s probably town.

[Sloonei]

I really think Jack has massive teammate equity with Radishes and would be curious how you've arrived at the opposite conclusion?

Easy. Jack is town. Where is this equity you speak of?

Jack ended both the first days on competing wagons to MR. Few did. MR also didn't vote for Jack when there was ample opportunity. That's more than enough equity. Now you tell me how in spite of that they are not. That is how this works.

The second point is a concern and I mentioned it in the behemoth post above. Why haven’t you read it in its entirety yet?

I don’t care about the first point though. Jack voted counter to Radishes on Day 1 because the counterwagon that day (nutella) was his baby, and it existed prior to the establishment of Radishes as a top lynch candidate. Jack was always voting for nutella Day 1 with or without Radishes as the counterwagon.

It’s also not surprising that he’d opt to vote for you on Day 2 given the tenacity of your exchanges with him (at least on Day 1, but I think I also recall it spilling over into Day 2 as well). Of all the people who voted for not-radishes each day, Jack is probably the name I’m least concerned about both times.

[MacDougall]

Sabie
Mac
Ted

You think I am teammates with Sabie? For real?

There are two baddie teams, sweetie.

So you grouped us for no reason?

[tedxtr]

I called Radishes scum and G-Man scum on N1 check that shit out

Radishes’ push on me rustled my jimmies but the thought only occurred to me in my REM sleep cycle but glad he got lynched tbh

He created a me - Mac dichotomy to point to me scum even though he had no read of Mac and he was also building that at the time I was starting to get heat

I mean it’s not even heat but like people were pushing me whatevs

[Sloonei]

Sloon--

your post confirms what i'm thinking about sabie.

I'd like to hear more from ted.

Yeah, the sabie stuff was my biggest takeaway there. It also felt good to cross TH off the list after independently arriving at a town read on him earlier, but that only eliminates TH from being a member of one of the teams. It’s still theoretically possible he’s on the other team. I’ll call it unlikely though.

Oof. I was not liking TH at all today.

Why?

[tedxtr]

Sloon--

your post confirms what i'm thinking about sabie.

I'd like to hear more from ted.

The best I can do is some isoing individual analysis but you’ll have to bear with me cuz I can’t rn (going to school - then having private lessons) so in like maybe 10 hours or so, hopefully I have PC access and do some analysis of radishes spew and shit and case who I think is scum

[Sloonei]

I called Radishes scum and G-Man scum on N1 check that shit out

Radishes’ push on me rustled my jimmies but the thought only occurred to me in my REM sleep cycle but glad he got lynched tbh

He created a me - Mac dichotomy to point to me scum even though he had no read of Mac and he was also building that at the time I was starting to get heat

I mean it’s not even heat but like people were pushing me whatevs

I hope to get around to ISOing you soon. You were the most difficult name to place in Radishes’ ISO. But you also remind me of another point that I neglected to mention, but that seemed odd to me at the time: when Radishes cast his vote for Turnip Head today, he said he “wasn’t feeling” the votes for Jack or G-man. Mac was also a viable wagon at the time, but he made no acknowledgment of that fact. Idk what it means and all of the rest of my analysis (and the rest of this thread in general) screams that Mac and Radishes are not partners. It was just an odd detail.

This uh, isn’t really directed at you ted, I’m just stuck on a subject right now. Sorry. Keep giving us your post-flip reads.

[tedxtr]

You americans need to start posting in my timezone god damnit

Waking up to 8 additional pages is a curse when you’re playing mobile

Isoing is the way to go for this game it seems

G-man still scum

Bye

[Sloonei]

Sloon--

your post confirms what i'm thinking about sabie.

I'd like to hear more from ted.

The best I can do is some isoing individual analysis but you’ll have to bear with me cuz I can’t rn (going to school - then having private lessons) so in like maybe 10 hours or so, hopefully I have PC access and do some analysis of radishes spew and shit and case who I think is scum

That’s groovy. Whatever you can manage is just groovy.

[tedxtr]

I’m never scum with radishes, read day one polls

I don’t just park on a team mate

[MacDougall]

Jack on Radish Day 1

Jack mention of Radish #1. Echoes a Jay read.

Radish has made a decent number of posts and none of them have inspired any feeling in me, so that's a net negative.

This mirrors my thoughts as well.

#2 asks TH to clarify his Radish suspicion. Goes nowhere with it/drops it.

I for one hate looking terrible but I'd rather lynch radish

I’m unlikely to move my vote today (especially to a player I’ve mostly see play 3p) but talk to me about Radish anyway.

Can't figure out where to vote. Maybe Radishes but provides a weak reason not to and then doesn't.

I have no idea where I’d put my vote now. Maybe on Radishes but that feels like a cop out because I don’t suspect Radishes I just don’t see anything townie in him and he’s probably the player here whose game I have the weakest grasp of.

Wants an explain on Radishes wagon, tries to push Dom instead (that sure went places).

Somebody explain the Radishes wagon.

I kinda want to lynch Dom.

Has Radishes red in a readslist. Apologies if this is just Jay's list copied again lol.

I think this is about where I'm at atm.


Dyslexicon
Epignosis
juliets
Michelle
nutella
S~V~S

Sloonei
tedxtr
TonyStarkPrime
sprityo
Tranq
Turnip Head

ColinIsCool
Dom
Dragomir

G-Man
Jackofhearts2005
JaggedJimmyJay
Master Radishes
NANOOK
sabie12
sig
speedchuck

Ends up voting for Nutella over Radishes in a straight tie.

I see no reason to disqualify them as partners on this evidence.

Night 1 Stuff

Out of time. Okay, let’s do this quickly - no links, soz. But trust me on my interpretation.

After Jack initiated the Nutella vote (bottom of page 11), it gained little traction. In fact, he mostly got flack at first – Mac and Sloonei both dismissed it, especially Mac (who called Nutella town and Jack scum in the space of a few posts.) Nutella counter-votes, and Epi and Sprit both join the Jack vote in their own time. But everyone was focusing on Nanookian satire instead.

Jack wouldn’t let it go, and as the discussion over Nanook wanes, Ted votes Nutella (‘page 12 was yucky’), whilst SVS and Dom vote Jack. It becomes the thread’s main focus for a couple pages. The Radish wagon picks up and kills it off, eventually. (Ted switches off at some point.)

Jack still doesn’t let it go, and some pages later Mac now (despite his earlier stance) declares Jack often right about this and nutella’s defence bad (but doesn’t vote there). Turnip Head, seemingly going off of Mac’s posts, votes Nutella (but only says ‘why not’). Epi questions Jack’s logic, but then a page later also votes Nutella (no reason given). Sig quickly also votes Nutella (‘reactions’). A bit later, Dom (reason unclear, but I think about ‘back peddling’) and Sabie (scum!Jack wouldn’t do this) also vote Nutella.

The wagon goes a bit stale, and Epi and Sig both jump off it.

--

At its peak moment, the voters, by my count and in order, were: Jack, TH, Epi, Sig, Dom, Sabie [6]. It’s at this moment that there is very likely at least one scum on the wagon. The Nutella vote gained momentum fairly quickly, and was a duelling wagon with the one on me. Scum mentality is to nudge these sort of wagons, and I think it’s perfectly reasonable to work under the assumption there is at least one in this group.

All 5 non-Jack voters can appear to be opportunistic. TH, Epi, and Dom gave no reasons, whilst Sig and Sabie gave lacklustre reasons. (Also notable is Mac, who nudged it along without ever landing there.)

Of those names, I’m not sure one in particular stands out. I think Sig’s vote was the most egregious, but his macro play of all those names has been the greenest. At the moment I’m not entirely sure where I’d place a vote (and obviously can’t anyway), but GTH I’d say Sabie. Also not a fan of Mac’s play on this – inconsistent and never landed on the wagon or, conversely, showed progression away from it. Just blew on the sparks a bit.



And off to bed I go.

This is all fair (but I don’t have to give you cred for it cause lolmultiball) and I think Dom and Mac look worst off it.

Can teammates reply like this? Of course.

Day 2 Stuff

Cause town has perverse incentive to cooperate with scum that have good SRs on the opposite team, so you see mac as doing that and think it’s a townie mindset

Would be my guess anyways

I really really really really dislike his flip flop on how he read me and Nutella. He declared me a wolf and Nutella one we should follow after the two of us started battling. Then like 12 hours later, I was town and Nutella was scum because I read her perfectly.

His argument for Nutella being scum exists in its entirety at the time he expressed a strong townread on her. His read change does not come from a town perspective. It comes from a scum perspective mimicking townplay, ie trusting Jack's Nutella read.

Why would baddie Mac express a strong townread on nutella and then flip flop just as soon? Why would a bad guy do that? It's a townie maneuever, just like your exact opposite flip flop was (I assume) townie.

Cause he forgot about his townread on her cause it was fake. Or cause Nutella was suddenly more appealing as a lynch considering she was counterwagon to his buddy Radish (which would be convenient considering our top wagons) than she was when I was the only player voting for her.

My progression is out there for everyone to see. Mac's progression doesn't exist on the thread.

Explains why I am bad through aligning me with Radishes. Fairly thoroughly debunked since I reckon. Null on whether that makes him teammates with Radishes. Probably a slightly good look but really if you have a weakened teammate you're gonna tie anyone you can to them.

Doesn't mention Radishes again the entire day.

[MacDougall]

Like literally Nanook died and flipped town. How you gonna shade him for voting Nutella?

Wtf, this is not the point, and you know it. You hiding behind a flipped town because you made the same action as him? Lol Jack. Lol.

What exactly was the point?

That Dom, Nanook and I were teamed with Radish?

That's stupid.

Look at all this evidence of you not being a teammate

[MacDougall]

anyway if ya'll wanna let Jack cakewalk to a win with charisma again be my guest

[Dom]

Sabie
Mac
Ted

You think I am teammates with Sabie? For real?

There are two baddie teams, sweetie.

So you grouped us for no reason?

....And I'm the one trying to paint everything the other does as bad?

I posted my top scum reads. Hop off.

Sloon--

your post confirms what i'm thinking about sabie.

I'd like to hear more from ted.

Yeah, the sabie stuff was my biggest takeaway there. It also felt good to cross TH off the list after independently arriving at a town read on him earlier, but that only eliminates TH from being a member of one of the teams. It’s still theoretically possible he’s on the other team. I’ll call it unlikely though.

Oof. I was not liking TH at all today.

Why?

I asked Turnip who he'd vote for if his top suspect was not an option. He declined to answer. Later, I asked him if his analysis of something JJack posted actually made Jack bad or if he just didn't like it.
Turnip did not respond, but turned around and used that line on me later.

He says he civ reads me, but isn't engaging in good faith.

[Sloonei]

Mac, I don’t see how the last point in that big post relates to Radishes at all.

Also the reads list is totally jay’s

[Dom]

Like literally Nanook died and flipped town. How you gonna shade him for voting Nutella?

Wtf, this is not the point, and you know it. You hiding behind a flipped town because you made the same action as him? Lol Jack. Lol.

What exactly was the point?

That Dom, Nanook and I were teamed with Radish?

That's stupid.

Look at all this evidence of you not being a teammate

You literally tied Nanook to him when Nanook no longer occupies the same role.
I'm really not sure what you're trying to prove there.

[Sloonei]

[mention]Turnip Head[/mention] care to respond to Dom’s points about you above?

[Dom]

I would have to be super, super wrong about Jack for him to be bad.

[Sloonei]

I would have to be super, super wrong about Jack for him to be bad.

Ditto. I’m open to the possibility, and I hope to ISO him myself soon, but I can’t bring myself to shake off my town read.

[TonyStarkPrime]

I would have to be super, super wrong about Jack for him to be bad.

Ditto. I’m open to the possibility, and I hope to ISO him myself soon, but I can’t bring myself to shake off my town read.

this gives me tinglies

[Sloonei]

I would have to be super, super wrong about Jack for him to be bad.

Ditto. I’m open to the possibility, and I hope to ISO him myself soon, but I can’t bring myself to shake off my town read.

this gives me tinglies

tell me about your tinglies, tony

[TonyStarkPrime]

I have no clue if Jack is town or not. My gut reaction would be town, but I think the only evidence to that end is the WIFOM “oh Jack wouldn’t go after Nutella if he were scum” to which I’ll point out that 1) he might and 2) he backed off.

[TonyStarkPrime]

I would have to be super, super wrong about Jack for him to be bad.

Ditto. I’m open to the possibility, and I hope to ISO him myself soon, but I can’t bring myself to shake off my town read.

this gives me tinglies

tell me about your tinglies, tony

I was on board to agree with you and Dom about it — I think Mac was going off little. But the weird mind meld in specifically this post seems to be hedging in a way that I don’t like.

[TonyStarkPrime]

I’m going to float the idea that this game is chaotic because there are two scum teams trying to outdo each other. Anyone want to ask me why this is important?

[Sloonei]

I would have to be super, super wrong about Jack for him to be bad.

Ditto. I’m open to the possibility, and I hope to ISO him myself soon, but I can’t bring myself to shake off my town read.

this gives me tinglies

tell me about your tinglies, tony

I was on board to agree with you and Dom about it — I think Mac was going off little. But the weird mind meld in specifically this post seems to be hedging in a way that I don’t like.

[Sloonei]

I’m going to float the idea that this game is chaotic because there are two scum teams trying to outdo each other. Anyone want to ask me why this is important?

Why is this important?

[TonyStarkPrime]

I’m going to float the idea that this game is chaotic because there are two scum teams trying to outdo each other. Anyone want to ask me why this is important?

Why is this important?

Because it means that — especially for high capacity players, of which everyone in this game is one, there is no incentive to slack off as there can be in a normal mafia game. Thus, our scum will be found not in those who are unusually quiet but rather those who are unusually loud.

[TonyStarkPrime]

The problem is anyone in at least the top six posters could easily be the top poster in any game here.

[TonyStarkPrime]

Juliets and Nutella could too, and I don’t remember who’s after that. Maybe Nanook is too active, but I’m not sure how much of that came Day 1, where we can safely discount that.

[TonyStarkPrime]

The first idea was to look for people who are hunting but avoiding certain cases altogether. That’s good advice in any mafia game, but I think it takes higher prevalence here. But in 25 player mafia, not all cases can be adequately touched on.

[Sloonei]

I’m going to float the idea that this game is chaotic because there are two scum teams trying to outdo each other. Anyone want to ask me why this is important?

Why is this important?

Because it means that — especially for high capacity players, of which everyone in this game is one, there is no incentive to slack off as there can be in a normal mafia game. Thus, our scum will be found not in those who are unusually quiet but rather those who are unusually loud.

I’m not sure I follow.

[TonyStarkPrime]

A question: if we all know what a derp looks like, and we all could reasonably emulate it, why don’t you see it more often? I can’t remember the last time scum town cleated themself with something like that.
The only possible example in this game is Sig going after Radish for saying baddie. Sig might have been right. Ironically, because he might have been right, I need to re-examine Sig.

[TonyStarkPrime]

I’m going to float the idea that this game is chaotic because there are two scum teams trying to outdo each other. Anyone want to ask me why this is important?

Why is this important?

Because it means that — especially for high capacity players, of which everyone in this game is one, there is no incentive to slack off as there can be in a normal mafia game. Thus, our scum will be found not in those who are unusually quiet but rather those who are unusually loud.

I’m not sure I follow.

Basically, the “they look like they’re hunting” argument falls apart.

[TonyStarkPrime]

I think pursuing a “who is teammates with Radish” line is just bad strategically. It’s what the other team wants to happen. Maybe it’s like

Town: 50
Master: 25
Anti-Monitor-25

on average and we change it to

Town: 60
Master: 40

by focusing on one faction, but I think friendly fire works to our advantage.

I’m more interested in who is scum without Radish.

[TonyStarkPrime]

That said if you think someone is scum with Radish you should point that out tonight so mafia will see it and kill them.

[Sloonei]

I think pursuing a “who is teammates with Radish” line is just bad strategically. It’s what the other team wants to happen. Maybe it’s like

Town: 50
Master: 25
Anti-Monitor-25

on average and we change it to

Town: 60
Master: 40

by focusing on one faction, but I think friendly fire works to our advantage.

I’m more interested in who is scum without Radish.

This is a good point to keep in mind, but at the same time my mindset is always to try to lynch the player who I think is most likely to flip scum, and we now have a clearer path to hunt Radishes team. But focusing exclusively on that for several days is a big advantage to the other team.

The case against Mac still stands and he is almost definitely not on Radishes' team.

[Sloonei]

I’m going to float the idea that this game is chaotic because there are two scum teams trying to outdo each other. Anyone want to ask me why this is important?

Why is this important?

Because it means that — especially for high capacity players, of which everyone in this game is one, there is no incentive to slack off as there can be in a normal mafia game. Thus, our scum will be found not in those who are unusually quiet but rather those who are unusually loud.

I’m not sure I follow.

Basically, the “they look like they’re hunting” argument falls apart.

I definitely do not follow.

[Sloonei]

But I need to go be asleep now anyway. bae wants to hit up the aquarium bright and early for her birthday, if ya know what i mean

[sprityo]

Not that I suspect Mac but I’ll be voting him anyways [VOTE: mac] aubergine

Absolute scenes as sprityo outs himself as scum

Let's talk about how Sprityo voted for someone he says he didn't suspect over someone who flipped scum and then count the ways how this makes him scum.

Way number 1. He actually did suspect me.

ColinIsCool green
Dom green
Dragomir green
Dyslexicon green
Epignosis green
JaggedJimmyJay green
juliets green
Michelle green
sabie12 green
Sloonei green
tedxtr green
TonyStarkPrime green
Tranq green

G-Man red
Jackofhearts2005 red
MacDougall red
Master Radishes red
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME 2.0 red
S~V~S red
sig red
speedchuck red
Turnip Head red

I’m comfortable with this personal GTH

By default I put anyone I had no opinion on due to lack of voting as green

Way number 2. He also suspected MR. See above. So if he actually didn't suspect me, he did suspect MR, but he voted me who didn't suspect over MR who he did.

Way number 3. This post, along with the rest of the Jack tunnel.

I see the reasons for voting speedchuck, radishes, Nutella and they all work, I guess.

I just really want to vote jack.

Sprityo has been attacking Jack for much of the game, but in this post he "sees the reason" for voting radishes, yet finds his vote on me at the end of the day. His Jack sus is not legitimate because he's not genuinely pushed it, he's just repeatedly said "Jack is scum". When Jack was near to tying me, Sprityo wasn't pushing his Jack suspicion at all. Just took a back seat until the Jack wagon disappeared enough for him to vote for me instead. The only way his Jack sus could read as illegitimate is if they are teammates. Guess who was on non MR wagons both days. Jack.

Each of these are enough to suspect Sprityo in their own right. Too much smoke. The guy is bad.

Weak reasons, but go off

[MacDougall]

I think pursuing a “who is teammates with Radish” line is just bad strategically. It’s what the other team wants to happen. Maybe it’s like

Town: 50
Master: 25
Anti-Monitor-25

on average and we change it to

Town: 60
Master: 40

by focusing on one faction, but I think friendly fire works to our advantage.

I’m more interested in who is scum without Radish.

This is a good point to keep in mind, but at the same time my mindset is always to try to lynch the player who I think is most likely to flip scum, and we now have a clearer path to hunt Radishes team. But focusing exclusively on that for several days is a big advantage to the other team.

The case against Mac still stands and he is almost definitely not on Radishes' team.

Oh yeah that case that isn't actually a case at all. Cool.

[MacDougall]

I'd like to hear some non Mac talk from people who haven't said much. [mention]Epignosis[/mention] and [mention]JaggedJimmyJay[/mention] you guys have been unusually low key. Care to express yourselves?

[MacDougall]

I’m going to float the idea that this game is chaotic because there are two scum teams trying to outdo each other. Anyone want to ask me why this is important?

How is this game any more or less chaotic than any other games? It hasn't felt chaotic to me at all.