Take Me Out at the Ballgame! [DAY 3]

[Epignosis]

I mean there is literally no reason for me to do this as scum, I just stick to my cop claim and claim my green is on my partner at EOD

Except I totally shit all over that. Hey!

[Epignosis]

There are two mafia role cops in the Matrix.

The entire purpose of these role cops is to find out what universe we are all in so they can fake shit.

This is faked shit.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Epignosis is a civilian. He's wrong about me. I dunno if he's wrong about Nanook with that wack shit. There's a potential claim war there. If not, then it's an unfortunate and unnecessary mess. I doubt he killed MP for the same reason I didn't.

Long Con, I lean civilian. I think he handled the fake peek pretty well. Mafia members tend to freak out about those things or otherwise counterclaim. I've been there, and I didn't behave the way LC did. I also don't count him as likely to kill MP.

Nanook is a civilian unless he is countered.

nutella and Michelle are what's left. I'll have to check again on their compatibility. Bussing isn't crazy in a tiny game like this one.

[Epignosis]

Epignosis is a civilian. He's wrong about me. I dunno if he's wrong about Nanook with that wack shit. There's a potential claim war there. If not, then it's an unfortunate and unnecessary mess. I doubt he killed MP for the same reason I didn't.

Long Con, I lean civilian. I think he handled the fake peek pretty well. Mafia members tend to freak out about those things or otherwise counterclaim. I've been there, and I didn't behave the way LC did. I also don't count him as likely to kill MP.

Nanook is a civilian unless he is countered.

nutella and Michelle are what's left. I'll have to check again on their compatibility. Bussing isn't crazy in a tiny game like this one.

Fuck his ass up nutella. Go girl.

[Epignosis]

And you too Michelle. Bitch at him.

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

I mean there is literally no reason for me to do this as scum, I just stick to my cop claim and claim my green is on my partner at EOD

Except I totally shit all over that. Hey!

Big eye roll

If I were mafia I would’ve claimed my green before EOD2

Beyond that, where’s the second PR if I’m not it? Are you gonna claim it? Otherwise fuck off.

[Epignosis]

I am married to my idea unless anyone can convince me mechanically that I am wrong. I am that resolved.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

There are two mafia role cops in the Matrix.

The entire purpose of these role cops is to find out what universe we are all in so they can fake shit.

This is faked shit.

I'm telling you as the author of the matrix that this is untrue. I don't even think that's a good decision by whatever mafia members. Matrices don't lend themselves well to faking role claims from other setups. Faking claims from within them can make sense.

If you're a doctor, we'll know it when you're dead or when you tell us tomorrow. So fine. But if you're not, then what you're saying does. not. make. sense.

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

Epignosis is a civilian. He's wrong about me. I dunno if he's wrong about Nanook with that wack shit. There's a potential claim war there. If not, then it's an unfortunate and unnecessary mess. I doubt he killed MP for the same reason I didn't.

Long Con, I lean civilian. I think he handled the fake peek pretty well. Mafia members tend to freak out about those things or otherwise counterclaim. I've been there, and I didn't behave the way LC did. I also don't count him as likely to kill MP.

Nanook is a civilian unless he is countered.

nutella and Michelle are what's left. I'll have to check again on their compatibility. Bussing isn't crazy in a tiny game like this one.

Mafia knows there’s no actual red check

[Epignosis]

I mean there is literally no reason for me to do this as scum, I just stick to my cop claim and claim my green is on my partner at EOD

Except I totally shit all over that. Hey!

Big eye roll

If I were mafia I would’ve claimed my green before EOD2

Beyond that, where’s the second PR if I’m not it? Are you gonna claim it? Otherwise fuck off.

Still fishing old man?

Kill me and see.

[Epignosis]

There are two mafia role cops in the Matrix.

The entire purpose of these role cops is to find out what universe we are all in so they can fake shit.

This is faked shit.

I'm telling you as the author of the matrix that this is untrue. I don't even think that's a good decision by whatever mafia members. Matrices don't lend themselves well to faking role claims from other setups. Faking claims from within them can make sense.

If you're a doctor, we'll know it when you're dead or when you tell us tomorrow. So fine. But if you're not, then what you're saying does. not. make. sense.

If.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

If.

For fuck's sake Epignosis. Get off of your semantic bullshit for five seconds, English Teacher Extraordinaire, and listen to what I am saying to you.

I am telling you why your argument is mechanically broken. I am telling you that right now. You're not listening to me.

[nutella]

There are two mafia role cops in the Matrix.

The entire purpose of these role cops is to find out what universe we are all in so they can fake shit.

This is faked shit.

We know we're in one of the universes with a tracker. Both of those have mafia role cops. They both also have the two-shot doctor, which Nanook -- and nobody else claimed. Roles flip on death so we know he's not fakeclaiming someone who was killed off. Jay is right -- unless you're the doctor, your theory doesn't make sense.

[nutella]

Epignosis is a civilian. He's wrong about me. I dunno if he's wrong about Nanook with that wack shit. There's a potential claim war there. If not, then it's an unfortunate and unnecessary mess. I doubt he killed MP for the same reason I didn't.

Long Con, I lean civilian. I think he handled the fake peek pretty well. Mafia members tend to freak out about those things or otherwise counterclaim. I've been there, and I didn't behave the way LC did. I also don't count him as likely to kill MP.

Nanook is a civilian unless he is countered.

nutella and Michelle are what's left. I'll have to check again on their compatibility. Bussing isn't crazy in a tiny game like this one.

I'm not scum. I don't know what to tell you but I think you are clearing LC too easily. I think it's him and Michelle.

[Epignosis]

If.

For fuck's sake Epignosis. Get off of your semantic bullshit for five seconds, English Teacher Extraordinaire, and listen to what I am saying to you.

I am telling you why your argument is mechanically broken. I am telling you that right now. You're not listening to me.

Now you're talking about the fact that I'm an English Teacher?

I'm talking about a Matrix YOU wrote and made fun of people for not understanding.

I'm talking about a "cop" who said bullshit and you allowed it and now you're entertaining more bullshit for Day 3.

I'm saving this game from you and Nanook. My argument is not mechanically broken. My argument is mechanically sound.

You keep ignoring Mafia role cops. Nanook has bullshitted two roles and you're okay with it. With two mafia role cop possibilities.

You would behave differently if you were a civilian.

I'm sorry I didn't roll over and let you and Nanook have this one, but fuck that:

I'm BATTING A THOUSAND THIS YEAR.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Epignosis is a civilian. He's wrong about me. I dunno if he's wrong about Nanook with that wack shit. There's a potential claim war there. If not, then it's an unfortunate and unnecessary mess. I doubt he killed MP for the same reason I didn't.

Long Con, I lean civilian. I think he handled the fake peek pretty well. Mafia members tend to freak out about those things or otherwise counterclaim. I've been there, and I didn't behave the way LC did. I also don't count him as likely to kill MP.

Nanook is a civilian unless he is countered.

nutella and Michelle are what's left. I'll have to check again on their compatibility. Bussing isn't crazy in a tiny game like this one.

I'm not scum. I don't know what to tell you but I think you are clearing LC too easily. I think it's him and Michelle.

I will consider it.

[nutella]

Oof I missed the second dash on my appositive. Yeah, yeah, I know, no prescriptivism, but that is ugly.

[Epignosis]

There are two mafia role cops in the Matrix.

The entire purpose of these role cops is to find out what universe we are all in so they can fake shit.

This is faked shit.

We know we're in one of the universes with a tracker. Both of those have mafia role cops. They both also have the two-shot doctor, which Nanook -- and nobody else claimed. Roles flip on death so we know he's not fakeclaiming someone who was killed off. Jay is right -- unless you're the doctor, your theory doesn't make sense.

Am I the doctor?

And if I'm not, what universes make sense?

[nutella]

There are two mafia role cops in the Matrix.

The entire purpose of these role cops is to find out what universe we are all in so they can fake shit.

This is faked shit.

We know we're in one of the universes with a tracker. Both of those have mafia role cops. They both also have the two-shot doctor, which Nanook -- and nobody else claimed. Roles flip on death so we know he's not fakeclaiming someone who was killed off. Jay is right -- unless you're the doctor, your theory doesn't make sense.

Am I the doctor?

And if I'm not, what universes make sense?

If you're the doctor and haven't said so then you have lost this game for the civilians.

[Epignosis]

Can't wait to see what that mafia kill is going to be!

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Now you're talking about the fact that I'm an English Teacher?

It's a rib. Good natured even if driven by irritation.

I'm talking about a Matrix YOU wrote and made fun of people for not understanding.

I'm talking about a "cop" who said bullshit and you allowed it and now you're entertaining more bullshit for Day 3.

I'm saving this game from you and Nanook. My argument is not mechanically broken. My argument is mechanically sound.

You keep ignoring Mafia role cops. Nanook has bullshitted two roles and you're okay with it. With two mafia role cop possibilities.

You do not understand this matrix. I am not making fun of people; I am crying into the void to ensure folks understand the basis of a game that I built alongside MP in the sort of heist format that I most enjoy to play. If you're not a doctor, then Nanook is. The same argument as before still applies. There's no way around this unless you want to tell me someone else here is a doctor. I sure as hell am not. Everyone else in this game has been confronted with this claim situation and given every indication that it warrants going along with.

You would behave differently if you were a civilian.

Nobody seems to have the first clue about this anymore.

I'm sorry I didn't roll over and let you and Nanook have this one, but fuck that:

I'm BATTING A THOUSAND THIS YEAR.

And you deserve credit for that. But it means shit now. You're wrong.

[Epignosis]

JJJ, what's the point of mafia role cops? You're still not talking about them.

[Epignosis]

JJJ, talk to me about how mafia would use role cops.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

JJJ, what's the point of mafia role cops? You're still not talking about them.

I already answered this. Read or get off the pot. When I placed role cops in this matrix, their purpose was to enable mafia to identify power roles and then kill them. Pretend to be in a different setup was not in my thought process, and that's because it would be a dumb decision.

[nutella]

Epi I don't understand your point about role cops. Like I said. If Nanook is fake claiming doctor, where's the real one?

[Epignosis]

Epi I don't understand your point about role cops. Like I said. If Nanook is fake claiming doctor, where's the real one?

Not fucking outing himself. That's where.

Jesus.

[nutella]

JJJ, what's the point of mafia role cops? You're still not talking about them.

I already answered this. Read or get off the pot. When I placed role cops in this matrix, their purpose was to enable mafia to identify power roles and then kill them. Pretend to be in a different setup was not in my thought process, and that's because it would be a dumb decision.

Okay actually though I have a hard time believing that it didn't occur to you. Seems like kind of the entire point of having a matrix, no?

[nutella]

Epi I don't understand your point about role cops. Like I said. If Nanook is fake claiming doctor, where's the real one?

Not fucking outing himself. That's where.

Jesus.

Is this Schrodinger's claim?

[Epignosis]

You people exasperate me so.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

JJJ, what's the point of mafia role cops? You're still not talking about them.

I already answered this. Read or get off the pot. When I placed role cops in this matrix, their purpose was to enable mafia to identify power roles and then kill them. Pretend to be in a different setup was not in my thought process, and that's because it would be a dumb decision.

Okay actually though I have a hard time believing that it didn't occur to you. Seems like kind of the entire point of having a matrix, no?

Many matrices don't even have role cops. That's not what I think about when I think about role cops. Their primary function is to identify the biggest threats to them, and that's why I put them in there.

[nutella]

JJJ, what's the point of mafia role cops? You're still not talking about them.

I already answered this. Read or get off the pot. When I placed role cops in this matrix, their purpose was to enable mafia to identify power roles and then kill them. Pretend to be in a different setup was not in my thought process, and that's because it would be a dumb decision.

Okay actually though I have a hard time believing that it didn't occur to you. Seems like kind of the entire point of having a matrix, no?

Many matrices don't even have role cops. That's not what I think about when I think about role cops. Their primary function is to identify the biggest threats to them, and that's why I put them in there.

I don't even mean specifically relating to the role cops. I mean, with a matrix, it seems likely that people are going to play with the possible worlds and mess with people's heads about it. No?

[Epignosis]

Epi I don't understand your point about role cops. Like I said. If Nanook is fake claiming doctor, where's the real one?

Not fucking outing himself. That's where.

Jesus.

Is this Schrodinger's claim?

I swear to God.

[nutella]

Jay: I'm allergic to fancy play syndrome
Also Jay: *makes setup extremely conducive to shit like what nanook just did*

[Epignosis]

The doctor is not required to out himself just because an apparent cop did.

That's the entire fucking point.

And that's what JJJ is PRETENDING TO BE IGNORANT ON.

I feel like Robin in Teen Titans Go.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don't even mean specifically relating to the role cops. I mean, with a matrix, it seems likely that people are going to play with the possible worlds and mess with people's heads about it. No?

There's probably some precedent for that somewhere, but no it's not what I envision from a matrix setup. The primary advantage of a matrix is that it enables a diverse array of balanced setups to be thrown into a randomized rotation -- one can run a lot of games with the same matrix and have them go a bunch of different directions.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

The doctor is not required to out himself just because an apparent cop did.

That's the entire fucking point.

And that's what JJJ is PRETENDING TO BE IGNORANT ON.

I feel like Robin in Teen Titans Go.

I am not pretending shit. If there's a doctor and the doctor did that, he or she played himself. The chance of a civilian win in this game will have dropped a ton for that decision.

Sometimes showing one's hand is the correct answer.

[Epignosis]

Fuck it. If you think Nanook is a power role (and you shouldn't because he should be ashamed of himself) lynch JJJ first instead. I don't give a shit.

[Epignosis]

The doctor is not required to out himself just because an apparent cop did.

That's the entire fucking point.

And that's what JJJ is PRETENDING TO BE IGNORANT ON.

I feel like Robin in Teen Titans Go.

I am not pretending shit. If there's a doctor and the doctor did that, he or she played himself. The chance of a civilian win in this game will have dropped a ton for that decision.

Sometimes showing one's hand is the correct answer.

Then Nanook is the worst cop ever and I refuse to believe that.

[nutella]

I don't even mean specifically relating to the role cops. I mean, with a matrix, it seems likely that people are going to play with the possible worlds and mess with people's heads about it. No?

There's probably some precedent for that somewhere, but no it's not what I envision from a matrix setup. The primary advantage of a matrix is that it enables a diverse array of balanced setups to be thrown into a randomized rotation -- one can run a lot of games with the same matrix and have them go a bunch of different directions.

Come on. This is basic epistemology. If the only purpose is to create different setups, you can just pick the setup and then have the specific setup be known to the players. The mere fact that the matrix is the only public knowledge we have creates avenues for catching people in counterclaim traps based on which universes we may or may not be in.

[Epignosis]

The doctor is not required to out himself just because an apparent cop did.

That's the entire fucking point.

And that's what JJJ is PRETENDING TO BE IGNORANT ON.

I feel like Robin in Teen Titans Go.

I am not pretending shit. If there's a doctor and the doctor did that, he or she played himself. The chance of a civilian win in this game will have dropped a ton for that decision.

Sometimes showing one's hand is the correct answer.

So mafia members don't want to know who the doctor is? Are you fucking kidding me?

[Epignosis]

JJJ and Nanook are mafia. Get some.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don't even mean specifically relating to the role cops. I mean, with a matrix, it seems likely that people are going to play with the possible worlds and mess with people's heads about it. No?

There's probably some precedent for that somewhere, but no it's not what I envision from a matrix setup. The primary advantage of a matrix is that it enables a diverse array of balanced setups to be thrown into a randomized rotation -- one can run a lot of games with the same matrix and have them go a bunch of different directions.

Come on. This is basic epistemology. If the only purpose is to create different setups, you can just pick the setup and then have the specific setup be known to the players. The mere fact that the matrix is the only public knowledge we have creates avenues for catching people in counterclaim traps based on which universes we may or may not be in.

You're right, and whether you intended it or not that's my point:

The matrix does not facilitate effective pretending between setups (in the absence of janitors at least), because there will always be someone out there who knows something is wack. That's the mechanism I keep referring to. Mafia members may still be inclined to pull shenanigans; weirder things have happened. Typically though that'd be a desperation play and not a well-oiled gambit. It just doesn't work very well.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

The doctor is not required to out himself just because an apparent cop did.

That's the entire fucking point.

And that's what JJJ is PRETENDING TO BE IGNORANT ON.

I feel like Robin in Teen Titans Go.

I am not pretending shit. If there's a doctor and the doctor did that, he or she played himself. The chance of a civilian win in this game will have dropped a ton for that decision.

Sometimes showing one's hand is the correct answer.

So mafia members don't want to know who the doctor is? Are you fucking kidding me?

You're not listening to a fucking thing I am saying to you. What you just asked me is so utterly clueless that I am actually shaking with frustration in my chair right now.

The situation you are painting should imply that, at least, the mafia are throwing one of their own to the noose so that they may out the doctor (or the whoever). This entire tale is predicated on Nanook pretending in the first place; thereby facilitating my "fishing". It's stupid.

[Epignosis]

I would rather lynch JJJ first. I had my vote on Dyslexicon before he sashayed in.

[Long Con]

So we’re in world C

I’m the 2 shot doc, MP got strongmanned N1. I thought fake claiming a red and seeing how things broke would open up the game, especially as I knew two people would know the check wasn’t real. My plan was to then claim tracker at night and try to get my second save off.

Which is partly why I wanted nutella TKed, the way she jumped on the check smelled like someone setting up “TK the ‘red’ check then murder the fake cop.”

I believe Nanook. I don't see a fake doc-claim including this part about MP. He tried to protect MP night 1, and the kill still went through. If this is fake, then I applaud his attention to creative detail.

[Epignosis]

The doctor is not required to out himself just because an apparent cop did.

That's the entire fucking point.

And that's what JJJ is PRETENDING TO BE IGNORANT ON.

I feel like Robin in Teen Titans Go.

I am not pretending shit. If there's a doctor and the doctor did that, he or she played himself. The chance of a civilian win in this game will have dropped a ton for that decision.

Sometimes showing one's hand is the correct answer.

So mafia members don't want to know who the doctor is? Are you fucking kidding me?

You're not listening to a fucking thing I am saying to you. What you just asked me is so utterly clueless that I am actually shaking with frustration in my chair right now.

The situation you are painting should imply that, at least, the mafia are throwing one of their own to the noose so that they may out the doctor (or the whoever). This entire tale is predicated on Nanook pretending in the first place; thereby facilitating my "fishing". It's stupid.

You mean the mafia team might not be playing optimally? Oh gee. Never saw that one before.

[nutella]

I don't even mean specifically relating to the role cops. I mean, with a matrix, it seems likely that people are going to play with the possible worlds and mess with people's heads about it. No?

There's probably some precedent for that somewhere, but no it's not what I envision from a matrix setup. The primary advantage of a matrix is that it enables a diverse array of balanced setups to be thrown into a randomized rotation -- one can run a lot of games with the same matrix and have them go a bunch of different directions.

Come on. This is basic epistemology. If the only purpose is to create different setups, you can just pick the setup and then have the specific setup be known to the players. The mere fact that the matrix is the only public knowledge we have creates avenues for catching people in counterclaim traps based on which universes we may or may not be in.

You're right, and whether you intended it or not that's my point:

The matrix does not facilitate effective pretending between setups (in the absence of janitors at least), because there will always be someone out there who knows something is wack. That's the mechanism I keep referring to. Mafia members may still be inclined to pull shenanigans; weirder things have happened. Typically though that'd be a desperation play and not a well-oiled gambit. It just doesn't work very well.

Ok, I see what you mean. I guess it's reasonable that you didn't expect a townie specifically do pull weird shit. Nanook is just too many levels ahead of the rest of us I guess.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'd like to say it's a relief that when this game is over I will be able to state things clearly with the evidence behind me, but it would be really goddamn nice to not have to lose the game before that.

[Epignosis]

So we’re in world C

I’m the 2 shot doc, MP got strongmanned N1. I thought fake claiming a red and seeing how things broke would open up the game, especially as I knew two people would know the check wasn’t real. My plan was to then claim tracker at night and try to get my second save off.

Which is partly why I wanted nutella TKed, the way she jumped on the check smelled like someone setting up “TK the ‘red’ check then murder the fake cop.”

I believe Nanook. I don't see a fake doc-claim including this part about MP. He tried to protect MP night 1, and the kill still went through. If this is fake, then I applaud his attention to creative detail.

Talk to me. World C would mean there's a two shot doctor. Right?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

You mean the mafia team might not be playing optimally? Oh gee. Never saw that one before.

Okay.

There you go.

Stop for a moment.

Breathe.

Reflect.

You're close.

It's not just suboptimal, Epignosis.

It's terrible.

It's fucking moronic.

It's the stuff of idiots.

Okay?

There's no need for the brilliant mafia duet of JJJ and Nanook to play these games instead of just, you know, winning it. The normal way. There wasn't likely to be a ton of resistance to me especially. This shit doesn't make sense. Use your head.