Escape From Trump Tower [GAME OVER]

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Who is the final killer?

Poll ended at Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:51 pm

112
1
8%
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME
2
17%
TonyStarkPrime
0
No votes
Carole Baskin (Host/Mod/Nons/Dead)
9
75%
 
Total votes: 12
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#551

Post by 112 »

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:12 pm Town core and POE is the way to play!
Juliets, epi, mp7 and yourself are my early core
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#552

Post by 112 »

Funnygurl555 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:17 pm
112 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:08 am Just woke up, have read some of what was posted since I ducked out yesterday.

The culture on my homesite is to always lynch claimed 3Ps. Is it different here? I'd lynch Dys right now and it's not really close.
imo scum would want 3ps gone even more than town rn, esp since dys has 3 vests
My entire thing with Dizzer is that he could be lying about his wincon and how much of a threat he poses to the town. Him saying he doesn't even understand his own wincon fully doesn't help; who doesn't 'get' their own wincon?
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#553

Post by Funnygurl555 »

DrWilgy wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:49 am
112 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:41 am
DrWilgy wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:37 am
112 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:34 am
DrWilgy wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:19 am
Dyslexicon wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:19 pm
M Plus 7 wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:16 pmIt's perhaps that you're in your own head a bit too much here.
No. I'm literally claiming third party. Or "independent" as you maybe call it here.
Ugh. I hate this post. Dammit Dizzy.
I hate this post.
Oho ho ho! Oh do tell me why?
It reads like you're faking emotion
Interesting as this does derive from a true conflict. Why would I desire to prevent Dizzy from winning vs clearing all variables necessary for victory.

Why would you say you hate my post instead of being upfront about the perceived fake emotion?
i think the doc is ok
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#554

Post by 112 »

Claiming 3P day one is sometimes an excellent way of simply surviving. I don't see why he should be given trust for admitting he's not within the town faction.
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#555

Post by Funnygurl555 »

112 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:21 pm
Funnygurl555 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:17 pm
112 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:08 am Just woke up, have read some of what was posted since I ducked out yesterday.

The culture on my homesite is to always lynch claimed 3Ps. Is it different here? I'd lynch Dys right now and it's not really close.
imo scum would want 3ps gone even more than town rn, esp since dys has 3 vests
My entire thing with Dizzer is that he could be lying about his wincon and how much of a threat he poses to the town. Him saying he doesn't even understand his own wincon fully doesn't help; who doesn't 'get' their own wincon?
he could be lying about his win con but his role would be harder. idk I personally think hes real and wanna get the scum.
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#556

Post by Dyslexicon »

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:10 pmI’m more inclined to shunt responsibility for 3p to the mafia and blame them if a sole winning 3p wins tbh
They should target me every night imo \o/
Funnygurl555 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:17 pmimo scum would want 3ps gone even more than town rn, esp since dys has 3 vests
It's not really vests. And nobody needs me gone. Except myself lol
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#557

Post by Funnygurl555 »

M Plus 7 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:16 pm I absolutely hate that 4-person wagon on Sloonei. It's static. It's not pushing the game forward in any way. If there's one reason to ever lynch Mac here, that'd be one. I understand Epi's vote being there, but I'd encourage those voters to at least more actively consider other options.

If Sloonei is scum and I'm actively now arguing to avoid his lynch d1, then lol, but if he is scum I'm confident we can catch him with strong town play.
ok mp gets like a pass from me idk how to read this guy but there have been multiple good takes
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#558

Post by Funnygurl555 »

fine I'm moving my vote to soneji bc killing inactives is HOW TO WIN (thank you for not voting me earlier)
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#559

Post by juliets »

112 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:19 pm
juliets wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:10 pm I just read through Sloonei's posts. He posted exactly 4 times yesterday (Tuesday) and hasn't posted at all today. That's not looking good. I understand he's playing another game but he's got no time at all to post in this one on the day we have EOD? I don't like it, the only question for me is whether MP7 is right and we should give him another day because his value if he's town is high. (Is that +EV? Still not 100% sure on how that term is used)

Other than Sloonei, I'm looking toward LC or Soneji for a vote. Since LC and Sloonei already have some heat I'm going to throw a vote Soneji's way.
Has Soneji posted?
Twice but neither post contained content.
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#560

Post by Dyslexicon »

112 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:21 pmMy entire thing with Dizzer is that he could be lying about his wincon and how much of a threat he poses to the town. Him saying he doesn't even understand his own wincon fully doesn't help; who doesn't 'get' their own wincon?
Ew.

I didn't read it properly, because I figured it was basically a wincon that doesn't include playing mafia. Like.. it has MATH.
I have specifically clarified that town doesn't have to eliminate me, and neither does mafia. I'll eliminate myself if I manage my wincon. Sure, you can believe this or not. And then Cindy Kate can store in their collective memory that I play with open cards when I get a boring independent role that has to play bingo while everyone else is playing mafia. This is what I do when I get a "survivor" type role, which I've actually had like three times (Worst role ever). And this is what I do now.

I'll survive up to a point whether you like it or not, so any town should rather thank me about actually being able to explain some stuff that will happen this game.

Have you seen any actual mafia in thread yet? How about solving YOUR wincon? =)
Just a wild idea and something for town to ponder.
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#561

Post by NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME »

Dyslexicon wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:28 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:10 pmI’m more inclined to shunt responsibility for 3p to the mafia and blame them if a sole winning 3p wins tbh
They should target me every night imo \o/
Funnygurl555 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:17 pmimo scum would want 3ps gone even more than town rn, esp since dys has 3 vests
It's not really vests. And nobody needs me gone. Except myself lol
Assuming your role is what you’re claiming it is I’m pretty disappointed tbh, I was looking forward to playing with you
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#562

Post by Dyslexicon »

Like, I'm really just posting out of boredom.

Please lynch me, 112! I'm shaking! It will definitely work!

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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#563

Post by Dyslexicon »

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:37 pmAssuming your role is what you’re claiming it is I’m pretty disappointed tbh, I was looking forward to playing with you
Yeah............ *fart noises*

Maybe I'll scum hunt a bit out of boredom.
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#564

Post by Funnygurl555 »

dyslexicon more like dyslexicoutofthegame

hahahaha
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#565

Post by Dyslexicon »

Rip!
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#566

Post by NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME »

Dyslexicon wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:40 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:37 pmAssuming your role is what you’re claiming it is I’m pretty disappointed tbh, I was looking forward to playing with you
Yeah............ *fart noises*

Maybe I'll scum hunt a bit out of boredom.
I’ll sheep you!
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#567

Post by Dyslexicon »

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:42 pmI’ll sheep you!
You should vote 112! She's mean and deflecting and is like tres scum-like. :omg:
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#568

Post by Funnygurl555 »

anyway I'm done catching up so here's some reads

in an effort to not clog the thread I'll spoiler it
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this is for you nanook
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#569

Post by NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME »

I did that earlier, I don’t believe in revisiting the past!
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#570

Post by NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME »

I hate you FG -.-
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#571

Post by Funnygurl555 »

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:47 pm I hate you FG -.-
LOLOLOLOLOL
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#572

Post by Dyslexicon »

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:46 pm I did that earlier, I don’t believe in revisiting the past!
112/Nanook team confirmed. You're welcome, town.
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#573

Post by 112 »

Dyslexicon wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:44 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:42 pmI’ll sheep you!
You should vote 112! She's mean and deflecting and is like tres scum-like. :omg:
:shrug:
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#574

Post by NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME »

Dyslexicon wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:50 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:46 pm I did that earlier, I don’t believe in revisiting the past!
112/Nanook team confirmed. You're welcome, town.
Dang you got us
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#575

Post by Sloonei »

[VOTE: wilgy md] aubergine
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#576

Post by Funnygurl555 »

why are you voting for the doc
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#577

Post by NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME »

It’s just a phase, most teens lash out at their father at some point.
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#578

Post by Sloonei »

Funnygurl555 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:57 pm why are you voting for the doc
I want to give him the gun
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [NIGHT 0]

#579

Post by juliets »

Funnygurl555 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:59 pm
M Plus 7 wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:33 pm
Funnygurl555 wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:35 pmhi
Hey FG, is this our first game together other than that turbo? I think so.

I believe it's my first game with Scirrus as well... and I don't remember playing with nova much.
yep, what's up man! im a bowl of carrots
Oh my gosh you ARE a bowl of carrots lol! How did I not noticed that before? I know this is off topic but why are you carrots?
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [NIGHT 0]

#580

Post by Funnygurl555 »

juliets wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:03 pm
Funnygurl555 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:59 pm
M Plus 7 wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:33 pm
Funnygurl555 wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:35 pmhi
Hey FG, is this our first game together other than that turbo? I think so.

I believe it's my first game with Scirrus as well... and I don't remember playing with nova much.
yep, what's up man! im a bowl of carrots
Oh my gosh you ARE a bowl of carrots lol! How did I not noticed that before? I know this is off topic but why are you carrots?
in the assassins creed game there were two people named master radishes and turnip head and i thought there were too many root vegetables. i decided to become one of them and i haven't changed the pic since
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#581

Post by Long Con »

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:36 am Moving my vote to long con
So familiar... I get shout outs to post more. I make one post with an opinion. Vote comes in for me unqualified. *kisses fingertips like Chef Boy-ar-dee* Magnifique.
DrWilgy wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:38 am
Long Con wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:34 am I like Wilgy as Civ. I don't think Wolf Wilgy would jab at 3P-claimed Dizzy.
Why do we think this? It would be an easy move.
112 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:42 am
Long Con wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:34 am I like Wilgy as Civ. I don't think Wolf Wilgy would jab at 3P-claimed Dizzy.
Why not?
The likelihood that a 3P is not a threat to the wolf team. Why waste wolfy energy going after a 3P?
M Plus 7 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:52 am
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:50 am
M Plus 7 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:47 am I would vote Dizzy over Sloonei, but that's not saying much. I'd rather pressure some other folks before we lynch Dizzy if we're going to do that.
Can I interest you in a long con
Sure, I'm down. Not feeling a Wilgy vote much anymore.

[VOTE: Long Con] aubergine
Really? :ponder:
M Plus 7 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:04 pm Updated MP7 reads list thingy

Town for now -- [would never lynch right now]
112
Epignosis
juliets
Nanook
Scirrus


Let's give X another day here -- [would prefer not to lynch]
Funnygurl
Jack
MacDougall
Sloonei


Upper POE -- [would passively consider lynch]
Soneji
TSP / nova


Lower POE -- [would actively consider lynch]
DrWilgy
Dyslexicon
Long Con
:haha: So I was orange until I made a content post and Nanook decided for you that it's bad, so suddenly I'm in your red zone. Suyre.
M Plus 7 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:11 pm
DrWilgy wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:07 pm
M Plus 7 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:03 pm
DrWilgy wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:48 pm MP, I'm starting to dislike your lines here.

I feel that you are drawing and encouraging lines of agreement and suspicion that aren't necessarily your own, but more so assist a narrative that is in your favor. I.e. you leave me in the null stating you don't know how you feel but at the same time leaving me at would lynch.

Your LC vote also piggy backing off Nanook.
I don't understand, what's the scum strategy I'm employing exactly?
Not sure if there's a term for it, but the encouragement of genuine town thoughts that give a scum benefit.

Linki: I think he's right re sloonei and his suspicion feels genuine.
I'm not sure I understand still, so let me elaborate. The players in my POE are people I feel OK lynching. If I have someone at a null read, I'm essentially OK with them being in the POE, especially if I have town leans or reads for everyone else. I think the reasons I've placed everyone in the tiers that I have are substantiated somewhere in my ISO, but if you're ever confused about any of them, feel free to ask me.

Also, I'm voting LC to support Nanook, and LC is in my three-person lower POE. I do that all the time as town. If someone else wants support with a wagon, I see that person who wants my support as town, and I support pressure on that wagon, I will often add to that wagon.

Why is that scum agenda and not town agenda?
Calling absolute bullshit here. I wasn't in your lower POE until you decided to "support" Nanook's unqualified vote. :disappoint:
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#582

Post by Sloonei »

i just realized that people are actually voting for me. that is silly.
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#583

Post by juliets »

[mention]Funnygurl555[/mention] I love that!

[mention]Dyslexicon[/mention] Dizzy I'm not going to vote for you today, you sound genuine and I believe you can help us.
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#584

Post by TonyStarkPrime »

Too many new posts. Fell asleep. content with Wilgy, moving elsewhere
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#585

Post by TonyStarkPrime »

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:23 pm
M Plus 7 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:18 pm That is, my list is entirely focused on D1 lynch as well, if that weren't clear. I'm certainly not saying to lock 112, Epi, you, etc. as town, because lol.
Yeh, my list is similar

Curious why mac is so high on yours, is it just because he’s Mac or...?
I don’t think scum Mac double texts
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#586

Post by TonyStarkPrime »

DrWilgy wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:51 pm Crackshot baddie list: Sloonei, MP, and Jack

Delimiters of this would be LC, Nanook and Epi.
This is so invigorating pump it right into my veins
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#587

Post by TonyStarkPrime »

juliets wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:12 pm I'd also like to hear some more from TonyStarkPrime. I moved that slot back to null from town until I can get a good feel for him.
This is ///interesting///. Obviously you want to hear more from me, but what’s the point in moving down my slot? It has the same identity it did when I came into the game.
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#588

Post by TonyStarkPrime »

And like, it seems a little out of character for Juliets to just post “meh this is a thing”. As Town I’d expect her to have asked me some questions I could scumread her for or something.
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#589

Post by TonyStarkPrime »

Lynch MP so I don’t have to read all of his posts.
On that train, a legitimate argument can be made that Dys claimed 3P to avoid the fact that the patent certified Dys town meta is hard to replicate. I don’t see that as the case here though, as it’s established that there’s likely a 3P and Dys still shows interest in posting.
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#590

Post by TonyStarkPrime »

I wonder how much I’ve avoided lynch because my name is at the bottom of the list and people start at the top and look for someone to vote for on day 1. Probably like a not insignificant amount. I want to see research done.
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#591

Post by Dyslexicon »

TonyStarkPrime wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:56 pmOn that train, a legitimate argument can be made that Dys claimed 3P to avoid the fact that the patent certified Dys town meta is hard to replicate.
My many mafia wins says otherwise :grin:
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#592

Post by TonyStarkPrime »

Dyslexicon wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:03 pm
TonyStarkPrime wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:56 pmOn that train, a legitimate argument can be made that Dys claimed 3P to avoid the fact that the patent certified Dys town meta is hard to replicate.
My many mafia wins says otherwise :grin:
Nvm lynch Dizzzzy
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#593

Post by Dyslexicon »

TonyStarkPrime wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:05 pmNvm lynch Dizzzzy
If you all freak out and don't know who to vote and don't want to accidentally vote town, you can all "lynch" me. =p

Going to attempt some sleep. Good night, all. ^^
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#594

Post by Epignosis »

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:41 am
Scirrus wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:55 am
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:29 am I forgot to say hi to Scirrus (I normally greet players I haven’t played with before) but he’s posted so much it feels awkward to do it now.
Hi Jack! I'm Scirrus. I like pina coladas, long walks on the beach, and killing mafia! Wbu?
Hi, Scirrus. :)

I like Total Warhammer and making fun of libertarians. :beer:
And he's pretty bad at both... :grin:
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#595

Post by juliets »

TonyStarkPrime wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:44 pm
juliets wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:12 pm I'd also like to hear some more from TonyStarkPrime. I moved that slot back to null from town until I can get a good feel for him.
This is ///interesting///. Obviously you want to hear more from me, but what’s the point in moving down my slot? It has the same identity it did when I came into the game.
I had the impression novaselinever was town based on his behavior but I just don't have enough behavior to continue to support the slot as town. I realize you have only been here a short period of time and I'm sure there will be enough behavior soon to decide whether to continue to read the slot as town. All it really means is give me some thoughts on your current reads and what's going on in the game so I can reassure myself.
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#596

Post by Epignosis »

M Plus 7 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:57 am
DrWilgy wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:54 am
M Plus 7 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:47 am I would vote Dizzy over Sloonei, but that's not saying much. I'd rather pressure some other folks before we lynch Dizzy if we're going to do that.
Why is it between the two here?
It doesn't have to be; it's just that Sloonei still has 4 votes right now and I'd rather not see him die even if he doesn't post more today tbh.
So what does it take for Sloonei to be lynched Day 1 for you?
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#597

Post by juliets »

TonyStarkPrime wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:45 pm And like, it seems a little out of character for Juliets to just post “meh this is a thing”. As Town I’d expect her to have asked me some questions I could scumread her for or something.
Maybe I didn't make it clear when I said I needed to hear more from you. I meant what are your thoughts? Reads, game state, just the normal stuff.
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#598

Post by Sloonei »

Epignosis wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:27 pm
M Plus 7 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:57 am
DrWilgy wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:54 am
M Plus 7 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:47 am I would vote Dizzy over Sloonei, but that's not saying much. I'd rather pressure some other folks before we lynch Dizzy if we're going to do that.
Why is it between the two here?
It doesn't have to be; it's just that Sloonei still has 4 votes right now and I'd rather not see him die even if he doesn't post more today tbh.
So what does it take for Sloonei to be lynched Day 1 for you?
You have been the most vocal opponent to the strategy of lynching me on Day 1 in the past. What changed?
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TonyStarkPrime
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#599

Post by TonyStarkPrime »

juliets wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:29 pm
TonyStarkPrime wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:45 pm And like, it seems a little out of character for Juliets to just post “meh this is a thing”. As Town I’d expect her to have asked me some questions I could scumread her for or something.
Maybe I didn't make it clear when I said I needed to hear more from you. I meant what are your thoughts? Reads, game state, just the normal stuff.
No, I know what you want. I don’t like it.
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Re: Escape From Trump Tower [DAY 1]

#600

Post by TonyStarkPrime »

Sloonei wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:29 pm
Epignosis wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:27 pm
M Plus 7 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:57 am
DrWilgy wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:54 am
M Plus 7 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:47 am I would vote Dizzy over Sloonei, but that's not saying much. I'd rather pressure some other folks before we lynch Dizzy if we're going to do that.
Why is it between the two here?
It doesn't have to be; it's just that Sloonei still has 4 votes right now and I'd rather not see him die even if he doesn't post more today tbh.
So what does it take for Sloonei to be lynched Day 1 for you?
You have been the most vocal opponent to the strategy of lynching me on Day 1 in the past. What changed?
I had just noted this. Something to be curious about
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