Jack Attack Mafia (Day 5)

[ColinIsCool]

Called into work earlier, rip...
Will be around for EoD though

@ColinIsCool
#3249 pretty much amounts to "I am getting scumread for the things that other people are doing," and means very little to me

Yes, that’s the point of the post.

[Millium]

plus the read isn't simply Jagged doesn't like me for calling him town
you are downplaying the fact that he has reason to believe ur read feels like TMI? unlike everyone else? that doesn't wanna touch him

I honestly don't care if you were to die today, anyone in the lurking PoE wouldnt cause me to cry out if they were indeed lynched today
but I want to lynch Pawn

[Millium]

[mention]ColinIsCool[/mention]
what do you think is the towniest thing in your iso?

[Epignosis]

I’m the protagonist of Bioshock if that helps sort the character dynamic (relationship between character and role/alignment)

I am only upset with myself for not figuring out that you're Jack Ryan.

Now, would you kindly vote for a mafia member?

[Millium]

The towniest thing about Colin's iso is that there really isn't anything explicitly wolfy... from my POV

1. He is very dismissive
2. Asks questions with no follow-ups
3. Has done very little scum hunting
4. wants to avoid the low-poster PoE because it's lazy? which is pretty ironic since he has been leaving all the work to us

but on the other hand, he feels like he is in his own world
its definitely a read I've use before, for example, Game 6 of Champs

[Millium]

I’m the protagonist of Bioshock if that helps sort the character dynamic (relationship between character and role/alignment)

I am only upset with myself for not figuring out that you're Jack Ryan.

Now, would you kindly vote for a mafia member?

who are the mafia members again?

[Epignosis]

Jay is taking every opportunity to say that he doesn't think I look townie but he hasn't moved me down on his list, which seems arbitrary. His list, in fact, basically hasn't changed at all since day 1 from what I can tell.

Is this an accusation? Is JJJ mafia?

[Epignosis]

For those still concerned about Epignosis, I think your best bet is to review his ISO with a specific objective: determine who would fit as his mafia teammates. When I reviewed them all in speed mode at EON1 (link), I determined he could be a compatible teammate of seven players:

ColinIsCool
Pawnyo -- these two are in the POE, and are co-compatible. So technically Epignosis, Colin, Pawnyo is a plausible team.
Spacedaisy
Wisp
Kitsu
sabie12 -- fitting with these players is irrelevant if they're civilians.
Nanook

If the team isn't exactly Epignosis/Pawn/Colin, then it's more difficult to see a mafioso in Epi. If any among you investigate for yourselves you may feel differently. I think this is ideal though as opposed to the vaguer notions of suspicion with which he has been cased for the most part.

I think it can easily be you / epi but otherwise came to the same conclusion on epi earlier.

It can't easily be me + anybody because I'm not mafia.

[sabie12]

I’m the protagonist of Bioshock if that helps sort the character dynamic (relationship between character and role/alignment)

I am only upset with myself for not figuring out that you're Jack Ryan.

Now, would you kindly vote for a mafia member?

Oh yeah I was going to do the would you kindly thing but I forgot and you best me to it.

[Epignosis]

Wisp
Hally

Long Con
Spacedaisy

sabie12
KitsuShel
Epignosis

TonyStarkPrime
Alison

ColinIsCool
Pawn Lelouch
DrWilgy

This is pretty much where I'm at right now.

You'd put yourself in the middle?

[Millium]

Wisp
Hally

Long Con
Spacedaisy

sabie12
KitsuShel
Epignosis

TonyStarkPrime
Alison

ColinIsCool
Pawn Lelouch
DrWilgy

This is pretty much where I'm at right now.

You'd put yourself in the middle?

kek

[Epignosis]

I understand why. But like. You allow your role to be taken advantage of as quickly as possible for no discernable value.

My role has no discernible value. It is explicitly crippled. If I have to go off explaining it later in a game then people like TonyStarkPrime think I'm a bullshitter and I just don't want to deal with that. That's not healthy for the civilian faction.

You don't get plasmids or anything? Not even a wrench?

[sabie12]

Wisp
Hally

Long Con
Spacedaisy

sabie12
KitsuShel
Epignosis

TonyStarkPrime
Alison

ColinIsCool
Pawn Lelouch
DrWilgy

This is pretty much where I'm at right now.

You'd put yourself in the middle?

I mean I know I'm town, but I figured that is obvious. I wasn't including myself in that haha.

[Epignosis]

Like. I get your logic. I think it's in profile for you too. But understand that if anyone else did it this way I'd probably be voting for them right now.

Eh?

[Alison]

The only times I can ever remember myself “catching“ Jay as mafia were not games (might have just been one, actually) where he was directing activity in the thread, forming POEs, serving as morale captain, etc. I just don’t see scum Jay there, and if there is scum Jay there, it’s beyond my abilities right now to sort through his ISO and make that case. Is that defeatist? Hi, I’m Colin, nice to meet you.

I’ve gotten in trouble as scum for TMIing Jay in games past so I see where the accusation is coming from, but here it’s just a read.

I have two possible beliefs I could hold.

1) I could believe that Colin is just a very defeatist person and signs up to games knowing that he's basically going to be pocketed and work against town if JJJ rolls wolf, and also has no desire to improve by at least trying to catch JJJ as scum

2) I could believe that Colin is just making up a random excuse as scum when questioned about his behavior in the thread

I believe 2) is significantly more likely than 1) unless you show me compelling evidence as to why 1) is the belief backed by more evidence. I think 1) is pretty far-fetched and I just don't see it so you'll have to do a lot of work to convince me it's true, like showing me a couple of past games where you just completely ignored the possibility of JJJ scum when you were town because you were convinced you'd never catch him.

[Epignosis]

I think Epi is the scummiest player outside of the POE

[Alison]

We currently have 3 on Colin, 3 on Wilgy, 2 on TSP and 2 on Pawn. The day is ending soon. We should consolidate if we don't want another circus for an EoD.

[Epignosis]

I can see why civillian Epi would suspect me but the defense of Pawn simply for having a few words that make sense put together in one post seems to be extremely out of character

In a world where Epi was a civillian I'd expect him to just put me and Pawn in a bucket and say we are both scum and should be shot. That makes sense to me. "Alison is scum, Pawn is town, kill Alison and definitely not Pawn" doesn't.

Your issue with me is that I didn't do something you would expect?

[Epignosis]

I’m the protagonist of Bioshock if that helps sort the character dynamic (relationship between character and role/alignment)

I am only upset with myself for not figuring out that you're Jack Ryan.

Now, would you kindly vote for a mafia member?

who are the mafia members again?

There's plenty of people.

The rest of your gripe is irrelevant. Let’s focus on this right here.

Who’s “plenty”? You suspect Alison. Who else?

Colin, Wilgy, Alison, TSP.

Can I post please?

[Epignosis]

TSP, why are you voting for Colin?

[ColinIsCool]

The towniest thing about Colin's iso is that there really isn't anything explicitly wolfy... from my POV

1. He is very dismissive
2. Asks questions with no follow-ups
3. Has done very little scum hunting
4. wants to avoid the low-poster PoE because it's lazy? which is pretty ironic since he has been leaving all the work to us

but on the other hand, he feels like he is in his own world
its definitely a read I've use before, for example, Game 6 of Champs

Harsh! I wouldn’t say everybody else is doing all the work because I think I’ve been supplying reads, participating in exercises and calling to attention things that strike me as suspicious. What else should I be doing that I’m not?

Towniest thing about me is that I’m town

[ColinIsCool]

The only times I can ever remember myself “catching“ Jay as mafia were not games (might have just been one, actually) where he was directing activity in the thread, forming POEs, serving as morale captain, etc. I just don’t see scum Jay there, and if there is scum Jay there, it’s beyond my abilities right now to sort through his ISO and make that case. Is that defeatist? Hi, I’m Colin, nice to meet you.

I’ve gotten in trouble as scum for TMIing Jay in games past so I see where the accusation is coming from, but here it’s just a read.

I have two possible beliefs I could hold.

1) I could believe that Colin is just a very defeatist person and signs up to games knowing that he's basically going to be pocketed and work against town if JJJ rolls wolf, and also has no desire to improve by at least trying to catch JJJ as scum

2) I could believe that Colin is just making up a random excuse as scum when questioned about his behavior in the thread

I believe 2) is significantly more likely than 1) unless you show me compelling evidence as to why 1) is the belief backed by more evidence. I think 1) is pretty far-fetched and I just don't see it so you'll have to do a lot of work to convince me it's true, like showing me a couple of past games where you just completely ignored the possibility of JJJ scum when you were town because you were convinced you'd never catch him.

You’re reading a lot into this when you really shouldn’t.

Jay’s behavior here is so towny — we, meaning the game at large, seem to largely agree on this.

If he isn’t town, the only argument I can make to that end is tinfoil, and I try to avoid tinfoil because I have the bad habit of buying into my own BS constantly. Maybe at a future date if we’re both alive I’ll scope out Jay, but as for now, until I’m given a reason otherwise, he’s not on my radar.

That is all my little jokey post to a friend meant. If I am to be lynched over it, then so be it, but realize shortly thereafter that it’s a pretty bad reason to lynch me.

[Long Con]

Towniest thing about me is that I’m town

[Millium]

I can buy Colin's reasoning since I get caught up in my own tinfoils a lot.

Lately I've been trying to avoid trying to find malice in higher posters, because most of the time that just isn't the correct answer
Maybe down the line that will become a thing, if people like jagged don't just end up dead or correct at some point

Anyways I'll be back later, work for 6 hours

[Alison]

You’re reading a lot into this when you really shouldn’t.

Jay’s behavior here is so towny — we, meaning the game at large, seem to largely agree on this.

If he isn’t town, the only argument I can make to that end is tinfoil, and I try to avoid tinfoil because I have the bad habit of buying into my own BS constantly. Maybe at a future date if we’re both alive I’ll scope out Jay, but as for now, until I’m given a reason otherwise, he’s not on my radar.

That is all my little jokey post to a friend meant. If I am to be lynched over it, then so be it, but realize shortly thereafter that it’s a pretty bad reason to lynch me.

you were in the POE before you made that post and would still be in the POE if you hadn't made it

[Alison]

I can see why civillian Epi would suspect me but the defense of Pawn simply for having a few words that make sense put together in one post seems to be extremely out of character

In a world where Epi was a civillian I'd expect him to just put me and Pawn in a bucket and say we are both scum and should be shot. That makes sense to me. "Alison is scum, Pawn is town, kill Alison and definitely not Pawn" doesn't.

Your issue with me is that I didn't do something you would expect?

My issue with you is that you defended Pawn in a scummy way

[Alison]

I can buy Colin's reasoning since I get caught up in my own tinfoils a lot.

Lately I've been trying to avoid trying to find malice in higher posters, because most of the time that just isn't the correct answer
Maybe down the line that will become a thing, if people like jagged don't just end up dead or correct at some point

Anyways I'll be back later, work for 6 hours

JJJ is actually an interesting case. Usually I suspect something is off if someone is obvtown and they still aren't shot by the mafia night after night, but in this case the mafia do have a legitimate reason to leave JJJ alive because of how much his role is a liability in endgame. Like especially because it's a plurality vote, so they can't end the day early. For example let's say a mafia member gets into F3 with JJJ and another townie. Even if they are 100% outed, if the other townie isn't around during EoD (which can easily happen with RL schedules getting in the way through nobody's fault), then the mafia member can simply order JJJ to vote the other townie and then vote them for the win.

I'm not 100% sure how to manage this because it's a fairly unprecedented effect in my time playing mafia but I suspect that this being the case means that we should put less weight on the "X hasn't died yet, why?" line of reasoning when it comes to tinfoils involving JJJ

[Epignosis]

I can see why civillian Epi would suspect me but the defense of Pawn simply for having a few words that make sense put together in one post seems to be extremely out of character

In a world where Epi was a civillian I'd expect him to just put me and Pawn in a bucket and say we are both scum and should be shot. That makes sense to me. "Alison is scum, Pawn is town, kill Alison and definitely not Pawn" doesn't.

Your issue with me is that I didn't do something you would expect?

My issue with you is that you defended Pawn in a scummy way

What would a "non-scummy" defense look like?

[Millium]

It's only been one night phase though...

[Alison]

It's possible I'm overvaluing how powerful the effect is, since if the other townie is around it's negated and it's pure luck whether or not they are around. But it could just as easily be F5 and one of the two other townies are not around. Or F7 and one of the three other townies aren't around. What I know for sure is that if I was mafia I'd be tempted to leave JJJ alive to the endgame to abuse his post restriction and if I can think that then the mafia can think that as well

[Alison]

I can see why civillian Epi would suspect me but the defense of Pawn simply for having a few words that make sense put together in one post seems to be extremely out of character

In a world where Epi was a civillian I'd expect him to just put me and Pawn in a bucket and say we are both scum and should be shot. That makes sense to me. "Alison is scum, Pawn is town, kill Alison and definitely not Pawn" doesn't.

Your issue with me is that I didn't do something you would expect?

My issue with you is that you defended Pawn in a scummy way

What would a "non-scummy" defense look like?

pointing out actual townie things he did rather than just selecting a post of his that has a bunch of stuff that could be made up as scum to townread?

the basis of my read is that I really do not think there is anything townie about that post (it isn't actively scummy, but it doesn't scream town either) and I don't really get the impression that you're the kind of player who just gives towncred to anyone who sounds reasonably articulate. this suggests to me that maybe you're reversing the order of things: you're walking into the thread with the intention of defending Pawn and looking at his ISO to see if there's any posts that look surface-level good that you can pick out and pretend to townread. And this is behavior is fundamentally scummy

[Hally]

I think Alison looks authentic on this page.

i agree

[Epignosis]

I can see why civillian Epi would suspect me but the defense of Pawn simply for having a few words that make sense put together in one post seems to be extremely out of character

In a world where Epi was a civillian I'd expect him to just put me and Pawn in a bucket and say we are both scum and should be shot. That makes sense to me. "Alison is scum, Pawn is town, kill Alison and definitely not Pawn" doesn't.

Your issue with me is that I didn't do something you would expect?

My issue with you is that you defended Pawn in a scummy way

What would a "non-scummy" defense look like?

pointing out actual townie things he did rather than just selecting a post of his that has a bunch of stuff that could be made up as scum to townread?

the basis of my read is that I really do not think there is anything townie about that post (it isn't actively scummy, but it doesn't scream town either) and I don't really get the impression that you're the kind of player who just gives towncred to anyone who sounds reasonably articulate. this suggests to me that maybe you're reversing the order of things: you're walking into the thread with the intention of defending Pawn and looking at his ISO to see if there's any posts that look surface-level good that you can pick out and pretend to townread. And this is behavior is fundamentally scummy

I didn't "walk into the thread" with any intention. JJJ asked and I looked through Pawn's posts and answered.

[Hally]

I can buy Colin's reasoning since I get caught up in my own tinfoils a lot.

Lately I've been trying to avoid trying to find malice in higher posters, because most of the time that just isn't the correct answer
Maybe down the line that will become a thing, if people like jagged don't just end up dead or correct at some point

Anyways I'll be back later, work for 6 hours

JJJ is actually an interesting case. Usually I suspect something is off if someone is obvtown and they still aren't shot by the mafia night after night, but in this case the mafia do have a legitimate reason to leave JJJ alive because of how much his role is a liability in endgame. Like especially because it's a plurality vote, so they can't end the day early. For example let's say a mafia member gets into F3 with JJJ and another townie. Even if they are 100% outed, if the other townie isn't around during EoD (which can easily happen with RL schedules getting in the way through nobody's fault), then the mafia member can simply order JJJ to vote the other townie and then vote them for the win.

I'm not 100% sure how to manage this because it's a fairly unprecedented effect in my time playing mafia but I suspect that this being the case means that we should put less weight on the "X hasn't died yet, why?" line of reasoning when it comes to tinfoils involving JJJ

i did consider this, yes

[Hally]

[mention]Epignosis[/mention] who is bad and why?

have you called anyone scum this game yet?

[Long Con]

It's possible I'm overvaluing how powerful the effect is, since if the other townie is around it's negated and it's pure luck whether or not they are around. But it could just as easily be F5 and one of the two other townies are not around. Or F7 and one of the three other townies aren't around. What I know for sure is that if I was mafia I'd be tempted to leave JJJ alive to the endgame to abuse his post restriction and if I can think that then the mafia can think that as well

Let's make a rule: if you are town, you may not command JJJ's vote.

[Alison]

I think Alison looks authentic on this page.

i agree

my theory is that it's because I'm not puting as much effort into formatting and punctuating my posts which makes my posts look like they're streaming directly from my mind and not structured or planned out. I will experiment with doing this more in order to get townread for free in my next few games until people get used to it and I no longer get towncred for it

[Long Con]

@Epignosis who is bad and why?

have you called anyone scum this game yet?

He made a short list and posted it, and when Wisp asked him recently who the Mafia are, he reposted it.

[Alison]

It's possible I'm overvaluing how powerful the effect is, since if the other townie is around it's negated and it's pure luck whether or not they are around. But it could just as easily be F5 and one of the two other townies are not around. Or F7 and one of the three other townies aren't around. What I know for sure is that if I was mafia I'd be tempted to leave JJJ alive to the endgame to abuse his post restriction and if I can think that then the mafia can think that as well

Let's make a rule: if you are town, you may not command JJJ's vote.

yeah but if it's endgame and the other town isn't around during EoD there's nothing anyone can do if the mafia want to force JJJ to do stuff

that's why it's a massive liability

[Long Con]

It's possible I'm overvaluing how powerful the effect is, since if the other townie is around it's negated and it's pure luck whether or not they are around. But it could just as easily be F5 and one of the two other townies are not around. Or F7 and one of the three other townies aren't around. What I know for sure is that if I was mafia I'd be tempted to leave JJJ alive to the endgame to abuse his post restriction and if I can think that then the mafia can think that as well

Let's make a rule: if you are town, you may not command JJJ's vote.

yeah but if it's endgame and the other town isn't around during EoD there's nothing anyone can do if the mafia want to force JJJ to do stuff

that's why it's a massive liability

I find it an unlikely situation. There's no hammer, so, what, a villager makes it to final three and ditches the game? JJJ just has to leave in order to leave his vote where he wants it... I really don't see how the in-thread forced vote is even possible to legally enforce. Is there a time limit? Is it assumed that JJJ's vote automatically goes where it's told, without his action or presence? Super sketchy, and it doesn't help convince me JJJ is town at all, due to these kinds of holes in the role implementation.

[Hally]

I think Alison looks authentic on this page.

i agree

my theory is that it's because I'm not puting as much effort into formatting and punctuating my posts which makes my posts look like they're streaming directly from my mind and not structured or planned out. I will experiment with doing this more in order to get townread for free in my next few games until people get used to it and I no longer get towncred for it

no its because of whats in the posts, not the formatting

[Alison]

they don't have to ditch the game, just be not around for like an hour before EoD. JJJ leaving the thread or pretending to leave the thread is a weird snag/loophole in the way this works and I have nfc how the host would interpret it. I don't really want to find out because JJJ has indicated that his role card has some pretty strict wording about following the restriction so it's possible JJJ gets modkilled and we lose on the spot if the host thinks JJJ is trying to get around it.

at the end of the day I have no real idea how this works because like I said it's unprecedented but there are enough scenarios where it fucks us over one way or another that I think the mafia would be inclined to leave JJJ alive for slightly longer than they ordinarily would

also I agree with the notion that town should not intentionally force JJJ to vote, and should instruct JJJ to vote whoever he wants to if they do it inadvertently

[Hally]

@Epignosis who is bad and why?

have you called anyone scum this game yet?

He made a short list and posted it, and when Wisp asked him recently who the Mafia are, he reposted it.

i dont want a list, id like him to point at someone in particular and tell me why theyre bad

[Alison]

LC: re - "JJJ's roleclaim doesn't help convince me JJJ is town"

JJJ's roleclaim plays little to no role in my townread of him, just to clarify. I'm townreading him for his posts, thoughts and interactions, not his vote-restriction claim. in a world where JJJ was scum who fooled me, I expect that he simply claimed the text on the fake claim given to him and is manually pretending to follow a non-existant post restriction

[Epignosis]

@Epignosis who is bad and why?

have you called anyone scum this game yet?

Not really. I'm working the other way around.

I have no reason to believe DrWilgy or TonyStarkPrime are good. Colin has shown more effort. I looked through TonyStarkPrime's posts to figure out why he's voting Colin and I didn't find any answer in his posts. I don't believe Alison's treatment of me is genuine. That is my group right now.

Why should Alison not be in this group?

[Hally]

@Epignosis who is bad and why?

have you called anyone scum this game yet?

Not really. I'm working the other way around.

I have no reason to believe DrWilgy or TonyStarkPrime are good. Colin has shown more effort. I looked through TonyStarkPrime's posts to figure out why he's voting Colin and I didn't find any answer in his posts. I don't believe Alison's treatment of me is genuine. That is my group right now.

Why should Alison not be in this group?

i dont know, why shouldnt she be?

you had a string of posts a while ago calling alison mafia and saying her posts are bullshit

do you stand by that? do you want to yeet her today?

[Alison]

TSP has I think shown more effort than Colin. If you're reading Colin as townier than Wilgy because he put in more effort, then are you reading TSP as less town than Colin despite putting in more effort, simply because you don't understand why TSP is voting Colin? In other words, are you scumreading TSP because you don't understand why he's voting for Colin?

[Hally]

i honestly would rather pawn have votes over wilgy and colin but im not gonna cry if those two get it instead

i think im most actively sus of pawn though

colins posts arent terrible imo and wilgy is a nonentity

[Alison]

pragmatically speaking we should leave wilgy alone because he's AWOL to the extent that he's either going to get modkilled, which resolves his slot without needing us to do anything, or subbed out, in which case his sub is going to give us more stuff to work with anyway

[Alison]

i honestly would rather pawn have votes over wilgy and colin but im not gonna cry if those two get it instead

i think im most actively sus of pawn though

colins posts arent terrible imo and wilgy is a nonentity

remind me again what drives your active suspicion of the pawnyo slot