Jack Attack Mafia (Day 5)

[Hally]

wait i just realized i was voting wilgy not pawn

[VOTE: pawn] aubergine

[Epignosis]

@Epignosis who is bad and why?

have you called anyone scum this game yet?

Not really. I'm working the other way around.

I have no reason to believe DrWilgy or TonyStarkPrime are good. Colin has shown more effort. I looked through TonyStarkPrime's posts to figure out why he's voting Colin and I didn't find any answer in his posts. I don't believe Alison's treatment of me is genuine. That is my group right now.

Why should Alison not be in this group?

i dont know, why shouldnt she be?

you had a string of posts a while ago calling alison mafia and saying her posts are bullshit

do you stand by that? do you want to yeet her today?

That's why she's in the list. Yes, I would vote for her today.

[Hally]

i honestly would rather pawn have votes over wilgy and colin but im not gonna cry if those two get it instead

i think im most actively sus of pawn though

colins posts arent terrible imo and wilgy is a nonentity

remind me again what drives your active suspicion of the pawnyo slot

idk i havent felt good about anything pawn has done this game

he pops in at weird times to comment on weird things amd then leaves

the posts he does make are meh

his post about his suspiscion on you was maybe his most substantive post so far and it was simply echoing what others already said about you

i dont see any spark there that shows me hes genuinely trying to solve

[Hally]

@Epignosis who is bad and why?

have you called anyone scum this game yet?

Not really. I'm working the other way around.

I have no reason to believe DrWilgy or TonyStarkPrime are good. Colin has shown more effort. I looked through TonyStarkPrime's posts to figure out why he's voting Colin and I didn't find any answer in his posts. I don't believe Alison's treatment of me is genuine. That is my group right now.

Why should Alison not be in this group?

i dont know, why shouldnt she be?

you had a string of posts a while ago calling alison mafia and saying her posts are bullshit

do you stand by that? do you want to yeet her today?

That's why she's in the list. Yes, I would vote for her today.

could you summarize your current issues with alison in like a few bullet points?

[Alison]

epi I would like you to answer my question about why you're scumreading TSP

but also I would like you to consider the following things:

- you have indicated that your preferred killpool is [me, TSP, wilgy] because you townread pawn and think colin has "put in effort"

- I am very unlikely to be the execute this day. I have shown why leaving wilgy alone is correct (feel free to tell me if you disagree about my reasoning there) and I don't think it's very likely that TSP eats the chop over wilgy/colin/pawn today just based on how the game has gone

- therefore it seems reasonably unlikely for people in your killpool to be shot today. are you willing to compromise by consolidating on colin?

[Hally]

pawn iso:

Spoiler: show

I will note that 1 wolf in that duo seems more likely than both fmpov. That dynamic shown from the quote lists from Jay seems too blatant and forced for a pair of wolves to feel like its a good idea. Tying themselves together like that will inevitably lead to both falling toogether eventually. There's too much attention on them, it just is never worth it.

this is a safe take. we know lc is town so there was only at most one wolf in lc/fg. and thats what pawn says here too. cool. this is a case of sounding reasonable without saying a whole lot that moves the game forward or means anything

caveat that this was his first post and he’d just rep’d in, so maybe this was the first thing he saw that he felt he could comment on readily. okay. i cant hold that against him

I’m not anticipating a single cop existing in this game tbh

I’m pretty annoyed we didn’t get those extra 10 minutes I was planning a “naw we’re just killing LC” swing back, and now we have no flip at all. Not great.

Actually it is a good thing. And that's kind of uncalled for and suspicious. Why add chaos intentionally to the end of the day? How is that even remotely town?

Directed chaos forces urgency. Urgency means people have less time to plan posts, so anything they say usually has higher odds of being more genuine than most other posts, even as town, since there is still going to be less of the normal proofreading, sentence structure work, etc. If you want to get honesty out of players and force people to take sides? It's a good way to do it and fits perfectly well as a town play, especially if onto someone that is a suspect.

Even accounting for your viewpoint being biased by not wanting to go down, I don't get how and why you're unable to see any sort of town intention within the play. It's off to say the least considering that its obvious.

Also hey Wisp, it'll be fun to finally play a game with you. ^_^

this is another post that contains no meaningful solving. its simply a post about mafia theory

same caveat as above though

Alison has moved *slightly* down for me tbh

why?

She hates angleshooting and what we were doing was fairly close to it

And you believe that hate is inherently alignment based? Meaning she wouldn't do it as town but would as mafia or 3P?

this is a question

Someone tell me if that vote from Epi is the kind of stupid shit he would push as town?

The grammar/word placement stuff? Yeah, I remember that from Epi a lot during Inception. Its NAI as far as I know.

And so its looking like Hally/Wisp are lock cleared based off of how they've acted regarding their claims and powers. LC is like 90% cleared off it, the only reason I'm not making it a guarantee is that mechanics seem to be fucky on that front considering the amount of claimed millers. Still, basically never hit this.

SD is like 85% town. Just because what is the point? Why does she make that claim as mafia, its just a potential anchor dragging her down long term. She has a baseline competence from what I've seen, so I just don't see what's the point. What mindset or perspective makes this worthwhile as mafia?

So functionally 4 clears. Its a damn good position for us to start D2 in.

this is a summary of the claim fiasco at SoD2, but ultimately adds nothing new or meaningful to the discussion

@Pawn Lelouch where are your reads at now?

Rougher than I'd like, I need to get to the point where I can feel comfortable figuring out where I lean on my 3 nulls for now. Otherwise, I feel solid overall on this grouping.

Town:
Hally
Wisp
Spacedaisy
Longcon

Town Lean:
Jay
Epi

Null:
sabie
kitsu
TSP

Scum Lean:
Alison
Drwilgy
Colin

Scum: N/A currently

this is a reads list. fairly consensus but so are many others’ in this game

@Pawn Lelouch where are your reads at now?

Rougher than I'd like, I need to get to the point where I can feel comfortable figuring out where I lean on my 3 nulls for now. Otherwise, I feel solid overall on this grouping.

Town:
Hally
Wisp
Spacedaisy
Longcon

Town Lean:
Jay
Epi

Null:
sabie
kitsu
TSP

Scum Lean:
Alison
Drwilgy
Colin

Scum: N/A currently

why is alison so low?

Combo of trying to lightly push against the SD clear, heavily pushing for pre flip associations earlier which is usually an easy wolf tactic to get credit or try and setup auto yeet chains, and while her point about Epi recently is a good one and mitigates my last point somewhat, I just don't like how she handled Epi's slot. It felt like she was trying to solve him and more that she was trying to shade with hypotheticals rather than anything concrete.

Overall, its more than enough to bump her to scum lean for me.

i asked him why alison is so low and this is the response

i maintain that this post is simply an amalgamation of the reasons people have suspected alison at various points in the game. these are, i think, very easy and surface level things to suspect someone for

maybe pawn believes/agrees with the reasons and genuinely finds alison scummy. but i cant say this post actually gives me confidence in that

@Pawn Lelouch where are your reads at now?

Rougher than I'd like, I need to get to the point where I can feel comfortable figuring out where I lean on my 3 nulls for now. Otherwise, I feel solid overall on this grouping.

Town:
Hally
Wisp
Spacedaisy
Longcon

Town Lean:
Jay
Epi

Null:
sabie
kitsu
TSP

Scum Lean:
Alison
Drwilgy
Colin

Scum: N/A currently

why is alison so low?

Combo of trying to lightly push against the SD clear, heavily pushing for pre flip associations earlier which is usually an easy wolf tactic to get credit or try and setup auto yeet chains, and while her point about Epi recently is a good one and mitigates my last point somewhat, I just don't like how she handled Epi's slot. It felt like she was trying to solve him and more that she was trying to shade with hypotheticals rather than anything concrete.

Overall, its more than enough to bump her to scum lean for me.

well lc is town so alison couldnt have been trying to chain jay to him post flip by pushing them as w/w

does this change anything for you?

If that was the only one she did then yeah, it does end up pushing her back up to null again. The SD bit is a point against her but not enough for a full drop, considering the Epi bit is mitigated recently.

But I could have sworn she had done it to more than just that pair? Am I misremembering there?

we continue our exchange about his alison read. there is perhaps some hedging here

she sorta did it with me/fg but less so?

Ughhhhhh. The lack of flip info with fg makes that far more ambiguous than I like.

okay

she sorta did it with me/fg but less so?

Ughhhhhh. The lack of flip info with fg makes that far more ambiguous than I like.

i kinda doubt she is w/w with fg anyway just from their interactions? so that probably wasnt a case of her chaining me to a teammate either

Okay, you've read more than I have and have the real time interactions that flow differently. I'll take your word on that interaction grouping since I've got too much of a headache to deep dive right now.

okay

if people dont post themselves clear i cant clear them

I would but I'm doing a lot of jury work plus law school prep and searching. Which is not at all AI, more just me apologizing for the relative dearth of posts and info.

this is a very weird post

pawn was not around at the time and i made a long post that contained that one line that pawn singles out and quotes. he excuses his lack of activity and apologizes for it

its just... kinda weird to me. why does v!pawn feel like he should single this out and defend himself here? why is this where his focus goes when he pops into the thread as opposed to like, contributing to the broader discussion about the game state that my post was a part of?

there was an actual, real discussion going on at the time that v!pawn could have contributed to. or he could have jumped in to comment on literally anything else that he found meaningful and where his insight might help us

instead he excuses his inactivity and then leaves again

if people dont post themselves clear i cant clear them

I would but I'm doing a lot of jury work plus law school prep and searching. Which is not at all AI, more just me apologizing for the relative dearth of posts and info.

no worries, i get people can be busy

question though: i feel like its now a couple of times where you pop in to respond to a very recent post

are you watching the thread and not commenting?

More that when I start feeling burned out on writing I pop over to this tab to do catchup and reset on that front a bit.

Where I feel I need to give some show that I'm alive despite not really wanting to write long posts. So it's more that I'm commenting only when I'm reading the thread? If that makes sense.

i question him about the above post and heres his answer. then he goes away

so that’s it. that’s all of pawn’s game related posts so far

i dont want this to be too harsh. i get pawn is busy and i appreciate him being willing to sub in here for us

my issue with him is not simply his lack of posts. its what he dedicates those posts to. its where he comments and where he doesnt. what he chooses to use his limited posts on feels... less than optimal. and the substance of those comments in terms of real, genuine game solving is, to me, either lacking or nonexistent. theres no spark

so thats why im most suspicious of pawn out of the three inactives

i should probably go back over sprityo’s posts too to be more comprehensive but i remember them being... less than great too

[Epignosis]

@Epignosis who is bad and why?

have you called anyone scum this game yet?

Not really. I'm working the other way around.

I have no reason to believe DrWilgy or TonyStarkPrime are good. Colin has shown more effort. I looked through TonyStarkPrime's posts to figure out why he's voting Colin and I didn't find any answer in his posts. I don't believe Alison's treatment of me is genuine. That is my group right now.

Why should Alison not be in this group?

i dont know, why shouldnt she be?

you had a string of posts a while ago calling alison mafia and saying her posts are bullshit

do you stand by that? do you want to yeet her today?

That's why she's in the list. Yes, I would vote for her today.

could you summarize your current issues with alison in like a few bullet points?

I struggle to see a civilian mindset driving her posts. I don't believe she believes what she is saying about me, that I'm not doing anything or that I "walked into the thread" with the intention of defending Pawn. If Pawn is bad, she has given herself a clear avenue to call for my head next.

[Hally]

@Epignosis who is bad and why?

have you called anyone scum this game yet?

Not really. I'm working the other way around.

I have no reason to believe DrWilgy or TonyStarkPrime are good. Colin has shown more effort. I looked through TonyStarkPrime's posts to figure out why he's voting Colin and I didn't find any answer in his posts. I don't believe Alison's treatment of me is genuine. That is my group right now.

Why should Alison not be in this group?

i dont know, why shouldnt she be?

you had a string of posts a while ago calling alison mafia and saying her posts are bullshit

do you stand by that? do you want to yeet her today?

That's why she's in the list. Yes, I would vote for her today.

could you summarize your current issues with alison in like a few bullet points?

I struggle to see a civilian mindset driving her posts. I don't believe she believes what she is saying about me, that I'm not doing anything or that I "walked into the thread" with the intention of defending Pawn. If Pawn is bad, she has given herself a clear avenue to call for my head next.

alright

[Epignosis]

epi I would like you to answer my question about why you're scumreading TSP

but also I would like you to consider the following things:

- you have indicated that your preferred killpool is [me, TSP, wilgy] because you townread pawn and think colin has "put in effort"

- I am very unlikely to be the execute this day. I have shown why leaving wilgy alone is correct (feel free to tell me if you disagree about my reasoning there) and I don't think it's very likely that TSP eats the chop over wilgy/colin/pawn today just based on how the game has gone

- therefore it seems reasonably unlikely for people in your killpool to be shot today. are you willing to compromise by consolidating on colin?

Same as with you. I don't see civilian gears turning the machine that is TonyStarkPrime.

Why are you voting for Colin and not Pawn?

[Hally]

i guess to drive home the point about pawn, even someone with very little posts can show a town spark

we saw that with kitsu D1 where, despite not posting that much at all, her spark really shined through and so many people town read her immediately

pawn has i think about how many posts kitsu had D1 now and theres simply nothing that i can point to that makes me feel that feeling

[Alison]

My top suspect is Colin because I find it impossible to understand why he would tell JJJ "if you're scum I'm never finding you" on D2

Sounds like a lazy excuse to get out of a TMI accusation rather than a genuine belief in JJJ's ironclad uncatchability as scum

[Alison]

Epi do you see civillian gears turning in Colin's brain? And, insofar as half the game is on Colin by default for low activity + POE, why is it that TSP's reasonless vote for Colin is suspicious?

[Alison]

i guess to drive home the point about pawn, even someone with very little posts can show a town spark

we saw that with kitsu D1 where, despite not posting that much at all, her spark really shined through and so many people town read her immediately

pawn has i think about how many posts kitsu had D1 now and theres simply nothing that i can point to that makes me feel that feeling

i dont actually think not being obvtown means you are scum in a vacuum

it does earn you a place in the POE in this game though since half the game is locked or obvtown

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Colin has shown more effort.

Why do you care about this?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

You two are just W/W and this whole thing with the clash of playstyles is just elaborate scum theater and I'm not buying it sorry

this conveys Alison/LC. Alison's aware that it does it's a level one read on my part. But pointing that out.

You two are just W/W and this whole thing with the clash of playstyles is just elaborate scum theater and I'm not buying it sorry

also. I make this read very frequently. I think day 1 clashes are almost always v/v or w/w. Here, there are some differences, but I shouldn't probably read into this.

Epignosis, are these two both mafia?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

My concern with Epignosis more broadly: if we're suggesting Pawn is a civilian and Colin is a civilian, then given the state of the game and Epi's own reads: we're solved. The team must necessarily be: DrWilgy, Alison, TonyStarkPrime.

If the team is anything else, Epignosis has left himself no space to figure it out. There's nobody left. That could be a great idea if it's motivated by well-reasoned reads.

Epi's civilian view of Pawn doesn't strike me that way. "Colin has shown more effort" is a read I'd expect Epignosis to complain about if he saw someone else make it.

[ColinIsCool]

pawn iso:

Spoiler: show

I will note that 1 wolf in that duo seems more likely than both fmpov. That dynamic shown from the quote lists from Jay seems too blatant and forced for a pair of wolves to feel like its a good idea. Tying themselves together like that will inevitably lead to both falling toogether eventually. There's too much attention on them, it just is never worth it.

this is a safe take. we know lc is town so there was only at most one wolf in lc/fg. and thats what pawn says here too. cool. this is a case of sounding reasonable without saying a whole lot that moves the game forward or means anything

caveat that this was his first post and he’d just rep’d in, so maybe this was the first thing he saw that he felt he could comment on readily. okay. i cant hold that against him

I’m not anticipating a single cop existing in this game tbh

I’m pretty annoyed we didn’t get those extra 10 minutes I was planning a “naw we’re just killing LC” swing back, and now we have no flip at all. Not great.

Actually it is a good thing. And that's kind of uncalled for and suspicious. Why add chaos intentionally to the end of the day? How is that even remotely town?

Directed chaos forces urgency. Urgency means people have less time to plan posts, so anything they say usually has higher odds of being more genuine than most other posts, even as town, since there is still going to be less of the normal proofreading, sentence structure work, etc. If you want to get honesty out of players and force people to take sides? It's a good way to do it and fits perfectly well as a town play, especially if onto someone that is a suspect.

Even accounting for your viewpoint being biased by not wanting to go down, I don't get how and why you're unable to see any sort of town intention within the play. It's off to say the least considering that its obvious.

Also hey Wisp, it'll be fun to finally play a game with you. ^_^

this is another post that contains no meaningful solving. its simply a post about mafia theory

same caveat as above though

Alison has moved *slightly* down for me tbh

why?

She hates angleshooting and what we were doing was fairly close to it

And you believe that hate is inherently alignment based? Meaning she wouldn't do it as town but would as mafia or 3P?

this is a question

Someone tell me if that vote from Epi is the kind of stupid shit he would push as town?

The grammar/word placement stuff? Yeah, I remember that from Epi a lot during Inception. Its NAI as far as I know.

And so its looking like Hally/Wisp are lock cleared based off of how they've acted regarding their claims and powers. LC is like 90% cleared off it, the only reason I'm not making it a guarantee is that mechanics seem to be fucky on that front considering the amount of claimed millers. Still, basically never hit this.

SD is like 85% town. Just because what is the point? Why does she make that claim as mafia, its just a potential anchor dragging her down long term. She has a baseline competence from what I've seen, so I just don't see what's the point. What mindset or perspective makes this worthwhile as mafia?

So functionally 4 clears. Its a damn good position for us to start D2 in.

this is a summary of the claim fiasco at SoD2, but ultimately adds nothing new or meaningful to the discussion

@Pawn Lelouch where are your reads at now?

Rougher than I'd like, I need to get to the point where I can feel comfortable figuring out where I lean on my 3 nulls for now. Otherwise, I feel solid overall on this grouping.

Town:
Hally
Wisp
Spacedaisy
Longcon

Town Lean:
Jay
Epi

Null:
sabie
kitsu
TSP

Scum Lean:
Alison
Drwilgy
Colin

Scum: N/A currently

this is a reads list. fairly consensus but so are many others’ in this game

@Pawn Lelouch where are your reads at now?

Rougher than I'd like, I need to get to the point where I can feel comfortable figuring out where I lean on my 3 nulls for now. Otherwise, I feel solid overall on this grouping.

Town:
Hally
Wisp
Spacedaisy
Longcon

Town Lean:
Jay
Epi

Null:
sabie
kitsu
TSP

Scum Lean:
Alison
Drwilgy
Colin

Scum: N/A currently

why is alison so low?

Combo of trying to lightly push against the SD clear, heavily pushing for pre flip associations earlier which is usually an easy wolf tactic to get credit or try and setup auto yeet chains, and while her point about Epi recently is a good one and mitigates my last point somewhat, I just don't like how she handled Epi's slot. It felt like she was trying to solve him and more that she was trying to shade with hypotheticals rather than anything concrete.

Overall, its more than enough to bump her to scum lean for me.

i asked him why alison is so low and this is the response

i maintain that this post is simply an amalgamation of the reasons people have suspected alison at various points in the game. these are, i think, very easy and surface level things to suspect someone for

maybe pawn believes/agrees with the reasons and genuinely finds alison scummy. but i cant say this post actually gives me confidence in that

@Pawn Lelouch where are your reads at now?

Rougher than I'd like, I need to get to the point where I can feel comfortable figuring out where I lean on my 3 nulls for now. Otherwise, I feel solid overall on this grouping.

Town:
Hally
Wisp
Spacedaisy
Longcon

Town Lean:
Jay
Epi

Null:
sabie
kitsu
TSP

Scum Lean:
Alison
Drwilgy
Colin

Scum: N/A currently

why is alison so low?

Combo of trying to lightly push against the SD clear, heavily pushing for pre flip associations earlier which is usually an easy wolf tactic to get credit or try and setup auto yeet chains, and while her point about Epi recently is a good one and mitigates my last point somewhat, I just don't like how she handled Epi's slot. It felt like she was trying to solve him and more that she was trying to shade with hypotheticals rather than anything concrete.

Overall, its more than enough to bump her to scum lean for me.

well lc is town so alison couldnt have been trying to chain jay to him post flip by pushing them as w/w

does this change anything for you?

If that was the only one she did then yeah, it does end up pushing her back up to null again. The SD bit is a point against her but not enough for a full drop, considering the Epi bit is mitigated recently.

But I could have sworn she had done it to more than just that pair? Am I misremembering there?

we continue our exchange about his alison read. there is perhaps some hedging here

she sorta did it with me/fg but less so?

Ughhhhhh. The lack of flip info with fg makes that far more ambiguous than I like.

okay

she sorta did it with me/fg but less so?

Ughhhhhh. The lack of flip info with fg makes that far more ambiguous than I like.

i kinda doubt she is w/w with fg anyway just from their interactions? so that probably wasnt a case of her chaining me to a teammate either

Okay, you've read more than I have and have the real time interactions that flow differently. I'll take your word on that interaction grouping since I've got too much of a headache to deep dive right now.

okay

if people dont post themselves clear i cant clear them

I would but I'm doing a lot of jury work plus law school prep and searching. Which is not at all AI, more just me apologizing for the relative dearth of posts and info.

this is a very weird post

pawn was not around at the time and i made a long post that contained that one line that pawn singles out and quotes. he excuses his lack of activity and apologizes for it

its just... kinda weird to me. why does v!pawn feel like he should single this out and defend himself here? why is this where his focus goes when he pops into the thread as opposed to like, contributing to the broader discussion about the game state that my post was a part of?

there was an actual, real discussion going on at the time that v!pawn could have contributed to. or he could have jumped in to comment on literally anything else that he found meaningful and where his insight might help us

instead he excuses his inactivity and then leaves again

if people dont post themselves clear i cant clear them

I would but I'm doing a lot of jury work plus law school prep and searching. Which is not at all AI, more just me apologizing for the relative dearth of posts and info.

no worries, i get people can be busy

question though: i feel like its now a couple of times where you pop in to respond to a very recent post

are you watching the thread and not commenting?

More that when I start feeling burned out on writing I pop over to this tab to do catchup and reset on that front a bit.

Where I feel I need to give some show that I'm alive despite not really wanting to write long posts. So it's more that I'm commenting only when I'm reading the thread? If that makes sense.

i question him about the above post and heres his answer. then he goes away

so that’s it. that’s all of pawn’s game related posts so far

i dont want this to be too harsh. i get pawn is busy and i appreciate him being willing to sub in here for us

my issue with him is not simply his lack of posts. its what he dedicates those posts to. its where he comments and where he doesnt. what he chooses to use his limited posts on feels... less than optimal. and the substance of those comments in terms of real, genuine game solving is, to me, either lacking or nonexistent. theres no spark

so thats why im most suspicious of pawn out of the three inactives

i should probably go back over sprityo’s posts too to be more comprehensive but i remember them being... less than great too

This is a good ISO.

[ColinIsCool]

My top suspect is Colin because I find it impossible to understand why he would tell JJJ "if you're scum I'm never finding you" on D2

Sounds like a lazy excuse to get out of a TMI accusation rather than a genuine belief in JJJ's ironclad uncatchability as scum

I thought you like, just said that that wasn’t the main reason to lynch me? But now it is?

[Alison]

This is a good ISO.

is this a post wolf colin makes about his scumbuddy when both their lives are in deadly peril?

i dont think so

[JaggedJimmyJay]

[VOTE: Pawn Lelouch] aubergine

[ColinIsCool]

My concern with Epignosis more broadly: if we're suggesting Pawn is a civilian and Colin is a civilian, then given the state of the game and Epi's own reads: we're solved. The team must necessarily be: DrWilgy, Alison, TonyStarkPrime.

If the team is anything else, Epignosis has left himself no space to figure it out. There's nobody left. That could be a great idea if it's motivated by well-reasoned reads.

Epi's civilian view of Pawn doesn't strike me that way. "Colin has shown more effort" is a read I'd expect Epignosis to complain about if he saw someone else make it.

I don’t follow you. Why can’t Epi change his mind?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

This is a good ISO.

is this a post wolf colin makes about his scumbuddy when both their lives are in deadly peril?

i dont think so

Eh. If they're both POE-clamped, generic distancing might feel like the only move.

[Alison]

My top suspect is Colin because I find it impossible to understand why he would tell JJJ "if you're scum I'm never finding you" on D2

Sounds like a lazy excuse to get out of a TMI accusation rather than a genuine belief in JJJ's ironclad uncatchability as scum

I thought you like, just said that that wasn’t the main reason to lynch me? But now it is?

it is the top reason why you are the scummiest person in the poe for me

but others would suspect you if you hadnt made the post and you would still be in my poe if not for this post

[JaggedJimmyJay]

My concern with Epignosis more broadly: if we're suggesting Pawn is a civilian and Colin is a civilian, then given the state of the game and Epi's own reads: we're solved. The team must necessarily be: DrWilgy, Alison, TonyStarkPrime.

If the team is anything else, Epignosis has left himself no space to figure it out. There's nobody left. That could be a great idea if it's motivated by well-reasoned reads.

Epi's civilian view of Pawn doesn't strike me that way. "Colin has shown more effort" is a read I'd expect Epignosis to complain about if he saw someone else make it.

I don’t follow you. Why can’t Epi change his mind?

He "can", but I don't think he's the sort to leave himself no choice.

[Alison]

This is a good ISO.

is this a post wolf colin makes about his scumbuddy when both their lives are in deadly peril?

i dont think so

Eh. If they're both POE-clamped, generic distancing might feel like the only move.

I feel like in a POE clamp the most obvious move is to violently attack your partner in the vain hopes of scraping out of the POE tomorrow with your partner's sacrifice (or letting them scrape if you flip)

This kind of shit earns you 0 towncred when your partner flips. Do you think Colin is the type of player to go for some next level WIFOM game knowing I'd react like this to him saying that? I don't.

[Alison]

wait is JJJ scumreading epi now?

[Hally]

My concern with Epignosis more broadly: if we're suggesting Pawn is a civilian and Colin is a civilian, then given the state of the game and Epi's own reads: we're solved. The team must necessarily be: DrWilgy, Alison, TonyStarkPrime.

If the team is anything else, Epignosis has left himself no space to figure it out. There's nobody left. That could be a great idea if it's motivated by well-reasoned reads.

Epi's civilian view of Pawn doesn't strike me that way. "Colin has shown more effort" is a read I'd expect Epignosis to complain about if he saw someone else make it.

ig my concern with this is, if epi is mafia, unless he’s mafia with exactly pawn and colin he’s... really boxed himself in? as in, if pawn and colin are town those are mislims w!epi simply needs to get in this game state. if theyre wolves together, well... okay

but ig w!epi could also think it doesnt matter since the rest of us are gonna yeet pawn and colin anyway and then if theyre town he can be like “see i told ya!”

but like, if colin and pawn are town, who would epi’s team even be? he doesnt seem to be with tony or alison? so if hes wolfing i think it would have to be like exactly with some combo of pawn/colin/wilgy?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I feel like in a POE clamp the most obvious move is to violently attack your partner in the vain hopes of scraping out of the POE tomorrow with your partner's sacrifice (or letting them scrape if you flip)

This kind of shit earns you 0 towncred when your partner flips. Do you think Colin is the type of player to go for some next level WIFOM game knowing I'd react like this to him saying that? I don't.

I don't think Colin is the sort to violently attack another player under any circumstances regardless of what may be optimal. I don't know if I have ever seen him do that regardless of alignment.

[Hally]

This is a good ISO.

is this a post wolf colin makes about his scumbuddy when both their lives are in deadly peril?

i dont think so

i mean, we’re killing them both anyway soooo why not distance

[JaggedJimmyJay]

wait is JJJ scumreading epi now?

I am Expressing Concerns™.

[Alison]

I feel like in a POE clamp the most obvious move is to violently attack your partner in the vain hopes of scraping out of the POE tomorrow with your partner's sacrifice (or letting them scrape if you flip)

This kind of shit earns you 0 towncred when your partner flips. Do you think Colin is the type of player to go for some next level WIFOM game knowing I'd react like this to him saying that? I don't.

I don't think Colin is the sort to violently attack another player under any circumstances regardless of what may be optimal. I don't know if I have ever seen him do that regardless of alignment.

huh

just goes to show that there really are all types of people in this world

I guess i retract my point then

[Hally]

This is a good ISO.

is this a post wolf colin makes about his scumbuddy when both their lives are in deadly peril?

i dont think so

Eh. If they're both POE-clamped, generic distancing might feel like the only move.

I feel like in a POE clamp the most obvious move is to violently attack your partner in the vain hopes of scraping out of the POE tomorrow with your partner's sacrifice (or letting them scrape if you flip)

This kind of shit earns you 0 towncred when your partner flips. Do you think Colin is the type of player to go for some next level WIFOM game knowing I'd react like this to him saying that? I don't.

not everyone is you though

like not everyone is good enough as scum or the kind of player to think in levels like this and violently attack their scummates

like colin doesnt seem like the type to violently attack anything lol

[JaggedJimmyJay]

so if hes wolfing i think it would have to be like exactly with some combo of pawn/colin/wilgy?

Yes.

[Alison]

wait is JJJ scumreading epi now?

I am Expressing Concerns™.

very good

let the hate flow through you and strike him down where he stands

[sabie12]

My concern with Epignosis more broadly: if we're suggesting Pawn is a civilian and Colin is a civilian, then given the state of the game and Epi's own reads: we're solved. The team must necessarily be: DrWilgy, Alison, TonyStarkPrime.

If the team is anything else, Epignosis has left himself no space to figure it out. There's nobody left. That could be a great idea if it's motivated by well-reasoned reads.

Epi's civilian view of Pawn doesn't strike me that way. "Colin has shown more effort" is a read I'd expect Epignosis to complain about if he saw someone else make it.

Did he say he would only suspect those three people and that's it? To me it seems like others have been doing that with being adamant about getting rid of people within a consensus POE. And if so is that alignment indicative for epi or just out of his norm?

[ColinIsCool]

ISOing Tony and I’m less up in arms with him than I thought he’d be.

my thing with fg is

whatever she is doing... clearly is not working for her? yet she doesnt back down

why as a wolf does she continue to do this? arent there less conspicuous ways of wolfing than this?

im stubborn

I did this as a wolf in some game, same position as FG. Came into the thread with scum reads, starting scum reading the most townie player just to try to create some credit. It's meh.

[ColinIsCool]

This is a good ISO.

is this a post wolf colin makes about his scumbuddy when both their lives are in deadly peril?

i dont think so

Eh. If they're both POE-clamped, generic distancing might feel like the only move.

I feel like in a POE clamp the most obvious move is to violently attack your partner in the vain hopes of scraping out of the POE tomorrow with your partner's sacrifice (or letting them scrape if you flip)

This kind of shit earns you 0 towncred when your partner flips. Do you think Colin is the type of player to go for some next level WIFOM game knowing I'd react like this to him saying that? I don't.

How would you have any idea what kind of player I am? Where are you deriving such information?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Did he say he would only suspect those three people and that's it? To me it seems like others have been doing that with being adamant about getting rid of people within a consensus POE. And if so is that alignment indicative for epi or just out of his norm?

I don't believe he has said this, no. It is an implication of his reads. To my memory, he has expressed belief in/trust for every living player other than those three. For Colin that's debatable, as "giving more effort" isn't necessarily a statement of trust.

This doesn't mean Epignosis has to be mafia. It's just peculiar, and it's compatible with some team theories. I cannot speak to whether this'd be alignment-indicative; it's too specific.

[Hally]

i mean like, regardless of who is a wolf in pawn/wilgy/colin/epi/tony/alison theyre kinda like poe clamped no matter what?

i mean, we have four lock clears. we have sabie, kitsu and jay as consensus town reads. so like, provided all that is correct there uh

arent really many places for the wolves in those six to go without running into a teammate

this kind of game state is hell to wolf in because the poe is so solid

[Alison]

im very confused: why is "if epi is scum he's probably scum with pawn/colin/wilgy" somehow an argument against epi being scum when we think those players are scum anyway?

Like hally you wonder why epi "boxes himself in" here but if he is in fact scum with his scum teammates in the POE what choice does he have? If he lets them flip, nobody here is dumb enough to award him a gold medal for suspecting the universal suspects and it just makes us even more happy to continue gunning down the POE. His only real option as scum there is to open wolf, hard defend his teammates and try to get whoever is in the POE and isnt on his team killed. This would be compatible with his open, straightforward but illogical defense of pawn and colin as well.

I think there is a pretty decent chance the team is just pawn/colin/epi. Wouldnt bet my life on it but it seems like a likely possibility to me.

[ColinIsCool]

I guess my bugaboo with Tony is more about how I can’t really see a progression in his thinking or understand where his reads seem to be coming from — therefore there’s a sense of arbitrariness attached

[JaggedJimmyJay]

If I eat my spinach and drink a protein shake, I might have the courage to say that Tony and Alison have looked better at face value today. This would leave a POE pool of Colin, Wilgy, Pawn, and Epignosis.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Protein shakes have been known to cause diarrhea, granted.

[Alison]

How would you have any idea what kind of player I am? Where are you deriving such information?

I was modelling your behavior by assuming you adhered to basic game theory. In this situation if you and Pawn are scum, at least one of you is 100% going to flip scum, and the best result is to try to get the other to survive. This means you need to gain towncred by bussing, unless you are engaging in a WIFOM play.

[ColinIsCool]

How would you have any idea what kind of player I am? Where are you deriving such information?

I was modelling your behavior by assuming you adhered to basic game theory. In this situation if you and Pawn are scum, at least one of you is 100% going to flip scum, and the best result is to try to get the other to survive. This means you need to gain towncred by bussing, unless you are engaging in a WIFOM play.

Any scum that looks at the vote totals and thinks “welp, nothing we can do now!” (assuming Pawn is scum, which I can roll with) this many hours out is waaaaaaaaaaay more of a defeatist than I am. The EOD hot potato is a sacred Syndicate ritual.

[ColinIsCool]

I gotta say I’m not drunk anymore but I don’t follow the discussion of Epignosis at all.

[Alison]

colin, one day I hope to roll scum with you and just open wolf and massacre town without a single thought for subtlety

I really appreciate the way you think about scum play regardless of your alignment

[JaggedJimmyJay]

i mean like, regardless of who is a wolf in pawn/wilgy/colin/epi/tony/alison theyre kinda like poe clamped no matter what?

i mean, we have four lock clears. we have sabie, kitsu and jay as consensus town reads. so like, provided all that is correct there uh

arent really many places for the wolves in those six to go without running into a teammate

this kind of game state is hell to wolf in because the poe is so solid

That's the dream, Hally. That's the dream.

[Alison]

I believe you when you say you would defend your wolf buddy in that position. I think 95% of wolves in your position would not have the cojones to do that which is why I assumed you would not. I think it is a move that can turn the game around if you can pull it off and I really appreciate that kind of fearless attitude as scum

[Alison]

i mean like, regardless of who is a wolf in pawn/wilgy/colin/epi/tony/alison theyre kinda like poe clamped no matter what?

i mean, we have four lock clears. we have sabie, kitsu and jay as consensus town reads. so like, provided all that is correct there uh

arent really many places for the wolves in those six to go without running into a teammate

this kind of game state is hell to wolf in because the poe is so solid

That's the dream, Hally. That's the dream.

wrong

the dream is that the team is exactly pawn, colin and epi and we execute them consecutively and i get vindicated and then we all get a socky nom for best town play