Jack Attack Mafia (Day 5)

[Long Con]

[VOTE: jaggedjimmyjay] aubergine

Any takers?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

*obscene gesture into the Zoom camera*

[JaggedJimmyJay]

All y'all:

What's your next move if Pawn is chopped and flips civilian?

What's your next move if Pawn is chopped and flips mafia?

[TonyStarkPrime]

dead
air
ded
viaalagerg

Does this concern you?

not really. I don't think it matters much the order we kill between the bottom three. A claim or a burst of energy from Pawn is necessary before I could rethink this.

[Hally]

All y'all:

What's your next move if Pawn is chopped and flips civilian?

What's your next move if Pawn is chopped and flips mafia?

idk i will have to see at the time

[Long Con]

All y'all:

What's your next move if Pawn is chopped and flips civilian?

What's your next move if Pawn is chopped and flips mafia?

Hide under some carpets and wait for the rolechecker types to guide the way, for either result.

[Long Con]

Yes! Yes, Tony has voted for JJJ!

[Millium]

I mean if u wanna switch to one of the other low posters, sure
or we can yeet Tony

Most people are at PoEing the lurkers, if the wolves are in the lurkers, of course, it's going to be DADV

but I am not voting Jagged

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I’ve never really believed in the idea behind “DADV”. I don’t have statistics to support that view, but it sounds wrong to me.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Tony’s continued tickling of me may just be town

[Millium]

if Pawn is town, I probably look at Tony or Epi, outside the normal PoE of the rest of the lurkers
If this is a wolf, like I believe, then I am still more inclined to believe that the wolves are slankers

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Some clarification on my dopey role:

I’ve confirmed that it would remain active in an endgame scenario. However, I also confirmed that if I defy my restriction my vote will still count — I’ll just blow up too. This would repair the damage in a Final 3 (if the mafioso dies it doesn’t matter if I also die; civilians still win). I would prefer any further vocal considerations of my role’s ramifications be minimized just in case the mafia are not paying attention.

[Millium]

"i'll just blow up"
lmao

[Hally]

how much time do we have exactly? is the deadline what the poll says or earlier?

[sabie12]

Yes! Yes, Tony has voted for JJJ!

If I wasn't voting pawn I don't think jay would be my next choice.
Why jay?

[Epignosis]

Colin has shown more effort.

Why do you care about this?

I don't. Colin is still in my list.

[Epignosis]

You two are just W/W and this whole thing with the clash of playstyles is just elaborate scum theater and I'm not buying it sorry

this conveys Alison/LC. Alison's aware that it does it's a level one read on my part. But pointing that out.

You two are just W/W and this whole thing with the clash of playstyles is just elaborate scum theater and I'm not buying it sorry

also. I make this read very frequently. I think day 1 clashes are almost always v/v or w/w. Here, there are some differences, but I shouldn't probably read into this.

Epignosis, are these two both mafia?

Don't know.

[Hally]

[mention]Pawn Lelouch[/mention] hi you have seven votes on you and are probably gonna die

sorry about that if youre town, its kinda my fault

but if you are town, itd be awesome if we got some last words from you or a claim or anything

[Epignosis]

My concern with Epignosis more broadly: if we're suggesting Pawn is a civilian and Colin is a civilian, then given the state of the game and Epi's own reads: we're solved. The team must necessarily be: DrWilgy, Alison, TonyStarkPrime.

If the team is anything else, Epignosis has left himself no space to figure it out. There's nobody left. That could be a great idea if it's motivated by well-reasoned reads.

Epi's civilian view of Pawn doesn't strike me that way. "Colin has shown more effort" is a read I'd expect Epignosis to complain about if he saw someone else make it.

You can suggest what you like. I call it like I see it.

Nobody is voting DrWilgy but me now, and nobody is voting Alison and nobody is voting TSP.

"Colin has shown more effort" wasn't an opinion about his alignment. It was a comparison to Wilgy and I still would lynch Colin, meaning I would be all the more willing to lynch Wilgy.

Why are you locking me into this perspective or that perspective? I will change my mind as I please.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I believe Jack affirmed the poll deadline is correct. I cannot ISO him on mobile though

[Epignosis]

pawn iso:

Spoiler: show

I will note that 1 wolf in that duo seems more likely than both fmpov. That dynamic shown from the quote lists from Jay seems too blatant and forced for a pair of wolves to feel like its a good idea. Tying themselves together like that will inevitably lead to both falling toogether eventually. There's too much attention on them, it just is never worth it.

this is a safe take. we know lc is town so there was only at most one wolf in lc/fg. and thats what pawn says here too. cool. this is a case of sounding reasonable without saying a whole lot that moves the game forward or means anything

caveat that this was his first post and he’d just rep’d in, so maybe this was the first thing he saw that he felt he could comment on readily. okay. i cant hold that against him

I’m not anticipating a single cop existing in this game tbh

I’m pretty annoyed we didn’t get those extra 10 minutes I was planning a “naw we’re just killing LC” swing back, and now we have no flip at all. Not great.

Actually it is a good thing. And that's kind of uncalled for and suspicious. Why add chaos intentionally to the end of the day? How is that even remotely town?

Directed chaos forces urgency. Urgency means people have less time to plan posts, so anything they say usually has higher odds of being more genuine than most other posts, even as town, since there is still going to be less of the normal proofreading, sentence structure work, etc. If you want to get honesty out of players and force people to take sides? It's a good way to do it and fits perfectly well as a town play, especially if onto someone that is a suspect.

Even accounting for your viewpoint being biased by not wanting to go down, I don't get how and why you're unable to see any sort of town intention within the play. It's off to say the least considering that its obvious.

Also hey Wisp, it'll be fun to finally play a game with you. ^_^

this is another post that contains no meaningful solving. its simply a post about mafia theory

same caveat as above though

Alison has moved *slightly* down for me tbh

why?

She hates angleshooting and what we were doing was fairly close to it

And you believe that hate is inherently alignment based? Meaning she wouldn't do it as town but would as mafia or 3P?

this is a question

Someone tell me if that vote from Epi is the kind of stupid shit he would push as town?

The grammar/word placement stuff? Yeah, I remember that from Epi a lot during Inception. Its NAI as far as I know.

And so its looking like Hally/Wisp are lock cleared based off of how they've acted regarding their claims and powers. LC is like 90% cleared off it, the only reason I'm not making it a guarantee is that mechanics seem to be fucky on that front considering the amount of claimed millers. Still, basically never hit this.

SD is like 85% town. Just because what is the point? Why does she make that claim as mafia, its just a potential anchor dragging her down long term. She has a baseline competence from what I've seen, so I just don't see what's the point. What mindset or perspective makes this worthwhile as mafia?

So functionally 4 clears. Its a damn good position for us to start D2 in.

this is a summary of the claim fiasco at SoD2, but ultimately adds nothing new or meaningful to the discussion

@Pawn Lelouch where are your reads at now?

Rougher than I'd like, I need to get to the point where I can feel comfortable figuring out where I lean on my 3 nulls for now. Otherwise, I feel solid overall on this grouping.

Town:
Hally
Wisp
Spacedaisy
Longcon

Town Lean:
Jay
Epi

Null:
sabie
kitsu
TSP

Scum Lean:
Alison
Drwilgy
Colin

Scum: N/A currently

this is a reads list. fairly consensus but so are many others’ in this game

@Pawn Lelouch where are your reads at now?

Rougher than I'd like, I need to get to the point where I can feel comfortable figuring out where I lean on my 3 nulls for now. Otherwise, I feel solid overall on this grouping.

Town:
Hally
Wisp
Spacedaisy
Longcon

Town Lean:
Jay
Epi

Null:
sabie
kitsu
TSP

Scum Lean:
Alison
Drwilgy
Colin

Scum: N/A currently

why is alison so low?

Combo of trying to lightly push against the SD clear, heavily pushing for pre flip associations earlier which is usually an easy wolf tactic to get credit or try and setup auto yeet chains, and while her point about Epi recently is a good one and mitigates my last point somewhat, I just don't like how she handled Epi's slot. It felt like she was trying to solve him and more that she was trying to shade with hypotheticals rather than anything concrete.

Overall, its more than enough to bump her to scum lean for me.

i asked him why alison is so low and this is the response

i maintain that this post is simply an amalgamation of the reasons people have suspected alison at various points in the game. these are, i think, very easy and surface level things to suspect someone for

maybe pawn believes/agrees with the reasons and genuinely finds alison scummy. but i cant say this post actually gives me confidence in that

Rougher than I'd like, I need to get to the point where I can feel comfortable figuring out where I lean on my 3 nulls for now. Otherwise, I feel solid overall on this grouping.

Town:
Hally
Wisp
Spacedaisy
Longcon

Town Lean:
Jay
Epi

Null:
sabie
kitsu
TSP

Scum Lean:
Alison
Drwilgy
Colin

Scum: N/A currently

why is alison so low?

Combo of trying to lightly push against the SD clear, heavily pushing for pre flip associations earlier which is usually an easy wolf tactic to get credit or try and setup auto yeet chains, and while her point about Epi recently is a good one and mitigates my last point somewhat, I just don't like how she handled Epi's slot. It felt like she was trying to solve him and more that she was trying to shade with hypotheticals rather than anything concrete.

Overall, its more than enough to bump her to scum lean for me.

well lc is town so alison couldnt have been trying to chain jay to him post flip by pushing them as w/w

does this change anything for you?

If that was the only one she did then yeah, it does end up pushing her back up to null again. The SD bit is a point against her but not enough for a full drop, considering the Epi bit is mitigated recently.

But I could have sworn she had done it to more than just that pair? Am I misremembering there?

we continue our exchange about his alison read. there is perhaps some hedging here

she sorta did it with me/fg but less so?

Ughhhhhh. The lack of flip info with fg makes that far more ambiguous than I like.

okay

she sorta did it with me/fg but less so?

Ughhhhhh. The lack of flip info with fg makes that far more ambiguous than I like.

i kinda doubt she is w/w with fg anyway just from their interactions? so that probably wasnt a case of her chaining me to a teammate either

Okay, you've read more than I have and have the real time interactions that flow differently. I'll take your word on that interaction grouping since I've got too much of a headache to deep dive right now.

okay

if people dont post themselves clear i cant clear them

I would but I'm doing a lot of jury work plus law school prep and searching. Which is not at all AI, more just me apologizing for the relative dearth of posts and info.

this is a very weird post

pawn was not around at the time and i made a long post that contained that one line that pawn singles out and quotes. he excuses his lack of activity and apologizes for it

its just... kinda weird to me. why does v!pawn feel like he should single this out and defend himself here? why is this where his focus goes when he pops into the thread as opposed to like, contributing to the broader discussion about the game state that my post was a part of?

there was an actual, real discussion going on at the time that v!pawn could have contributed to. or he could have jumped in to comment on literally anything else that he found meaningful and where his insight might help us

instead he excuses his inactivity and then leaves again

if people dont post themselves clear i cant clear them

I would but I'm doing a lot of jury work plus law school prep and searching. Which is not at all AI, more just me apologizing for the relative dearth of posts and info.

no worries, i get people can be busy

question though: i feel like its now a couple of times where you pop in to respond to a very recent post

are you watching the thread and not commenting?

More that when I start feeling burned out on writing I pop over to this tab to do catchup and reset on that front a bit.

Where I feel I need to give some show that I'm alive despite not really wanting to write long posts. So it's more that I'm commenting only when I'm reading the thread? If that makes sense.

i question him about the above post and heres his answer. then he goes away

so that’s it. that’s all of pawn’s game related posts so far

i dont want this to be too harsh. i get pawn is busy and i appreciate him being willing to sub in here for us

my issue with him is not simply his lack of posts. its what he dedicates those posts to. its where he comments and where he doesnt. what he chooses to use his limited posts on feels... less than optimal. and the substance of those comments in terms of real, genuine game solving is, to me, either lacking or nonexistent. theres no spark

so thats why im most suspicious of pawn out of the three inactives

i should probably go back over sprityo’s posts too to be more comprehensive but i remember them being... less than great too

This is a good ISO.

What's good about it?

[Epignosis]

My concern with Epignosis more broadly: if we're suggesting Pawn is a civilian and Colin is a civilian, then given the state of the game and Epi's own reads: we're solved. The team must necessarily be: DrWilgy, Alison, TonyStarkPrime.

If the team is anything else, Epignosis has left himself no space to figure it out. There's nobody left. That could be a great idea if it's motivated by well-reasoned reads.

Epi's civilian view of Pawn doesn't strike me that way. "Colin has shown more effort" is a read I'd expect Epignosis to complain about if he saw someone else make it.

I don’t follow you. Why can’t Epi change his mind?

Point to Colin.

[Epignosis]

My concern with Epignosis more broadly: if we're suggesting Pawn is a civilian and Colin is a civilian, then given the state of the game and Epi's own reads: we're solved. The team must necessarily be: DrWilgy, Alison, TonyStarkPrime.

If the team is anything else, Epignosis has left himself no space to figure it out. There's nobody left. That could be a great idea if it's motivated by well-reasoned reads.

Epi's civilian view of Pawn doesn't strike me that way. "Colin has shown more effort" is a read I'd expect Epignosis to complain about if he saw someone else make it.

I don’t follow you. Why can’t Epi change his mind?

He "can", but I don't think he's the sort to leave himself no choice.

I always have a choice. I don't give a shit about what I've "left myself."

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Don't know.

That’s something you might want to work out. If they don’t work as mafia teammates, then your view of the game is even further restricted.

You can “change your mind”; indeed, you will be forced to do that if for any deviation from your current stances. There’s little or no wiggle.

[Millium]

[VOTE: Dr. Wilgy for science] aubergine

[Millium]

for a second all the votes on Pawn turned into Jagged
is this an omen?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

for a second all the votes on Pawn turned into Jagged
is this an omen?

Common glitch.

You’re all me.

[Hally]

[VOTE: wilgy] aubergine

having two wagons is good

[sabie12]

for a second all the votes on Pawn turned into Jagged
is this an omen?

Common glitch.

You’re all me.

The game is now JJJ attack

[JaggedJimmyJay]

If DrWilgy is a mafioso, then by rule he cannot use any night actions while he is vanished.

[Hally]

the votes on jay are useless

can everyone pick between wilgy and pawn?

[Millium]

[mention]JaggedJimmyJay[/mention]
What?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

@JaggedJimmyJay
What?

All mafia members are required to send their own actions. He cannot do that if he isn’t here.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Rule 7

[Hally]

he has been here at times though

ive seen his name at the bottom of the thread

[Alison]

I specifically asked for a consolidation on Pawn and provided reasoning why Wilgy is a bad flip (he's either gonna get modkilled or subbed)

I don't have the time and attention to monitor this EoD closely. Make good choices.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Well that little stinker!

[Alison]

and please, no chaos for the sake of chaos

[Epignosis]

My concern with Epignosis more broadly: if we're suggesting Pawn is a civilian and Colin is a civilian, then given the state of the game and Epi's own reads: we're solved. The team must necessarily be: DrWilgy, Alison, TonyStarkPrime.

If the team is anything else, Epignosis has left himself no space to figure it out. There's nobody left. That could be a great idea if it's motivated by well-reasoned reads.

Epi's civilian view of Pawn doesn't strike me that way. "Colin has shown more effort" is a read I'd expect Epignosis to complain about if he saw someone else make it.

ig my concern with this is, if epi is mafia, unless he’s mafia with exactly pawn and colin he’s... really boxed himself in? as in, if pawn and colin are town those are mislims w!epi simply needs to get in this game state. if theyre wolves together, well... okay

but ig w!epi could also think it doesnt matter since the rest of us are gonna yeet pawn and colin anyway and then if theyre town he can be like “see i told ya!”

but like, if colin and pawn are town, who would epi’s team even be? he doesnt seem to be with tony or alison? so if hes wolfing i think it would have to be like exactly with some combo of pawn/colin/wilgy?

What is "ig?"

[Long Con]

and please, no chaos for the sake of chaos

Look out for Nanook, he LOVES adding chaos!

[Spacedaisy]

I’m really sorry guys. I was out sick from work, yesterday was my first day back after like ten days. So I was so tired by the time I got home I didn’t have the energy to do much beyond read. Today I woke up with a crazy headache I haven’t been able to shake. I’ve been keeping up until today so I’ve got like four pages left to catch up on. I see the majority are voting Pawn. I get the basic POE reasoning. Also I trust the town core atm. So I’m putting my vote there as well.

[VOTE: Pawn] aubergine

Now to catch up.

[Epignosis]

i mean like, regardless of who is a wolf in pawn/wilgy/colin/epi/tony/alison theyre kinda like poe clamped no matter what?

Nope.

[sabie12]

I’m really sorry guys. I was out sick from work, yesterday was my first day back after like ten days. So I was so tired by the time I got home I didn’t have the energy to do much beyond read. Today I woke up with a crazy headache I haven’t been able to shake. I’ve been keeping up until today so I’ve got like four pages left to catch up on. I see the majority are voting Pawn. I get the basic POE reasoning. Also I trust the town core atm. So I’m putting my vote there as well.

[VOTE: Pawn] aubergine

Now to catch up.

Hope you feel better!

[JaggedJimmyJay]

and please, no chaos for the sake of chaos

I am Lawful Good. We got this.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

i mean like, regardless of who is a wolf in pawn/wilgy/colin/epi/tony/alison theyre kinda like poe clamped no matter what?

Nope.

Nope what?

[Alison]

will tsp and lc get off their ridiculous vanity wagon? If JJJ is a wolf, today is not the day he dies.

similarly, please do not waste votes on a player who might well be modkilled and flipped for us...

[Epignosis]

im very confused: why is "if epi is scum he's probably scum with pawn/colin/wilgy" somehow an argument against epi being scum when we think those players are scum anyway?

Like hally you wonder why epi "boxes himself in" here but if he is in fact scum with his scum teammates in the POE what choice does he have? If he lets them flip, nobody here is dumb enough to award him a gold medal for suspecting the universal suspects and it just makes us even more happy to continue gunning down the POE. His only real option as scum there is to open wolf, hard defend his teammates and try to get whoever is in the POE and isnt on his team killed. This would be compatible with his open, straightforward but illogical defense of pawn and colin as well.

I think there is a pretty decent chance the team is just pawn/colin/epi. Wouldnt bet my life on it but it seems like a likely possibility to me.

I'm pleased to hear that much.

[Spacedaisy]

Oy actually... Hally, Wisp and LC have all voted elsewhere.... and I trust them the most atm.

I’m not ready to vote Jay at this point.

I’m going to follow Hally and Wisp instead.

[VOTE: Wilgy] aubergine

[Epignosis]

I gotta say I’m not drunk anymore but I don’t follow the discussion of Epignosis at all.

What am I saying that you aren't understanding?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Pawn is a better chop than Wilgy.