Jack Attack Mafia (Day 5)

[Alison]

[mention]JaggedJimmyJay[/mention] why are you doubting the POE at this stage in the game?

[Alison]

Also put off by this. I deliberately exaggerated my angst about Tony's "slip" and this is precisely the kind of post I thought a mafioso might come up with if he is innocent.

so what makes you think this is mafia alison trying to get a misexecute on innocent tony rather than innocent alison disbelieving tony's explanation

[Alison]

alison/epi interactions honestly do read w/w

like they went at each other fairly aggressively but then just... dropped it

has either one of them actually tried to kill the other in this game

it feels like they always have someone they’d rather go after

Because it is objectively correct to do so. Epi was 100% not the execute on Day 2. At that point in time, Pawn/Colin were the best execute targets. Even if I believe Epi is scum, it is still better to go after people who have higher scum equity. I don't appreciate being told I am scum because I am playing the game correctly

[Alison]

yea i like the epi/alison world

i think they each have relatively high chance of being a wolf individually and they also make sense as a pair

think this is the pair i wanna yeet in today

if this is the correct world we’ll have plenty of time to find the third, whether it’s kitsu or colin or whoever

good. help me execute epi then

[Alison]

[VOTE: alison] aubergine

Going away now since I'm annoying. Later y'all

don't listen to wisp, you're fine

[JaggedJimmyJay]

@JaggedJimmyJay why are you doubting the POE at this stage in the game?

I’m not. You and Epignosis are both in it.

[Alison]

I'm going to say it right now: if you are suspecting Kitsu, you are wrong to do so. If you genuinely think Kitsu is scum, then catch her at endgame. It is important to sort the POE [Alison/Epi/TSP/Colin] first before even thinking about executing Kitsu. I would go so far to say that it is wrong to execute or investigate anyone outside of the POE barring strong new revelations like a bad scumslip or a cop check. I strongly believe that it is in town's best interests to sort those that need the most sorting first before bringing people out of the towncore. I still believe Kitsu is town, both from her posts and I believe that the miller misclaim points to her being town as well.

[Alison]

@JaggedJimmyJay why are you doubting the POE at this stage in the game?

I’m not. You and Epignosis are both in it.

why are you pushing a me/epi/kitsu world then?

also I suggest you vote epi if you believe in that world since I'm going to help you execute him but he isn't going to help you execute me, so unless you have compelling reason to believe that I am significantly more likely to be scum than epi, you should be helping me bus my scum buddy.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Also put off by this. I deliberately exaggerated my angst about Tony's "slip" and this is precisely the kind of post I thought a mafioso might come up with if he is innocent.

so what makes you think this is mafia alison trying to get a misexecute on innocent tony rather than innocent alison disbelieving tony's explanation

You didn’t give the explanation a chance.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

@JaggedJimmyJay why are you doubting the POE at this stage in the game?

I’m not. You and Epignosis are both in it.

why are you pushing a me/epi/kitsu world then?

also I suggest you vote epi if you believe in that world since I'm going to help you execute him but he isn't going to help you execute me, so unless you have compelling reason to believe that I am significantly more likely to be scum than epi, you should be helping me bus my scum buddy.

I’m not chopping Kitsu before you. That’s the point. I don’t think Kitsu looks bad except with very specific pairings (you and/or Epi).

I may yet vote Epi. Numerous hours remain.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm going to say it right now: if you are suspecting Kitsu, you are wrong to do so. If you genuinely think Kitsu is scum, then catch her at endgame. It is important to sort the POE [Alison/Epi/TSP/Colin] first before even thinking about executing Kitsu. I would go so far to say that it is wrong to execute or investigate anyone outside of the POE barring strong new revelations like a bad scumslip or a cop check. I strongly believe that it is in town's best interests to sort those that need the most sorting first before bringing people out of the towncore. I still believe Kitsu is town, both from her posts and I believe that the miller misclaim points to her being town as well.

Who are you talking to? The current wagons are in that group of four you provided.

[Alison]

Also put off by this. I deliberately exaggerated my angst about Tony's "slip" and this is precisely the kind of post I thought a mafioso might come up with if he is innocent.

so what makes you think this is mafia alison trying to get a misexecute on innocent tony rather than innocent alison disbelieving tony's explanation

You didn’t give the explanation a chance.

why would I give an explanation to which my first reaction was disbelief and skepticism a chance

[Alison]

I'm going to say it right now: if you are suspecting Kitsu, you are wrong to do so. If you genuinely think Kitsu is scum, then catch her at endgame. It is important to sort the POE [Alison/Epi/TSP/Colin] first before even thinking about executing Kitsu. I would go so far to say that it is wrong to execute or investigate anyone outside of the POE barring strong new revelations like a bad scumslip or a cop check. I strongly believe that it is in town's best interests to sort those that need the most sorting first before bringing people out of the towncore. I still believe Kitsu is town, both from her posts and I believe that the miller misclaim points to her being town as well.

Who are you talking to? The current wagons are in that group of four you provided.

I'm talking to all the people who are theorizing about Epi/Alison/Kitsu universes. I think that universe is silly and that theorizing about it should be left until endgame

[Alison]

constant theorizing/tinfoiling about people who are in the towncore being scum degrades the integrity of the towncore and leaves the door open for scum to slip out of our grasp by expanding the POE, which is their best shot at winning if they are clamped by this POE.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Also put off by this. I deliberately exaggerated my angst about Tony's "slip" and this is precisely the kind of post I thought a mafioso might come up with if he is innocent.

so what makes you think this is mafia alison trying to get a misexecute on innocent tony rather than innocent alison disbelieving tony's explanation

You didn’t give the explanation a chance.

why would I give an explanation to which my first reaction was disbelief and skepticism a chance

Because that’s how the town mind tends to work in a state of uncertainty.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm talking to all the people who are theorizing about Epi/Alison/Kitsu universes. I think that universe is silly and that theorizing about it should be left until endgame

The current motion of the game is already in alignment for what you’re calling for.

You and Epi are in the POE pool. You and Epi have wagons. Kitsu has one random vote from someone else in the POE pool. Your mindset does not make sense.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Hell now Kitsu has NO votes. You’re preaching to the choir.

[Alison]

Because that’s how the town mind tends to work in a state of uncertainty.

I don't give things that I find obviously scummy a chance, and neither should you. If something could go one way or another, feel free to weigh the possibilities and to think about all sides of the equation, but if something is scum, it's scum, and doubting yourself about it is more likely to lead to you being manipulated by TWTBW arguments than to actual lead you in the direction of the truth. Will you be wrong sometimes anyway? Yes. But the possibility of being wrong shouldn't preclude you from going "you know what, this is scum. Exe it." Sometimes you will not be correct, as I was incorrect on LC day 1. But you should do it anyway because when something is obviously scummy, most of the time it's going to be scum. That is what it means to be scummy.

[Alison]

Hell now Kitsu has NO votes. You’re preaching to the choir.

Please read my posts and see how I am explicitly arguing against people theorizing that Kitsu is scum in the first place. I don't really care if they're voting Kitsu or not. It is incorrect to undermine the integrity of the towncore, and by extension the integrity of the POE, by casting doubt on Kitsu.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Hell now Kitsu has NO votes. You’re preaching to the choir.

Please read my posts and see how I am explicitly arguing against people theorizing that Kitsu is scum in the first place. I don't really care if they're voting Kitsu or not. It is incorrect to undermine the integrity of the towncore, and by extension the integrity of the POE, by casting doubt on Kitsu.

This is fear-mongering. Kitsu is fine. The connections folks have drawn only matter if you and/or Epignosis flip mafia, and even then it’s still a dialogue. If you in particular were to flip town after going on about this, it’s something people would have to consider.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Because that’s how the town mind tends to work in a state of uncertainty.

I don't give things that I find obviously scummy a chance, and neither should you. If something could go one way or another, feel free to weigh the possibilities and to think about all sides of the equation, but if something is scum, it's scum, and doubting yourself about it is more likely to lead to you being manipulated by TWTBW arguments than to actual lead you in the direction of the truth. Will you be wrong sometimes anyway? Yes. But the possibility of being wrong shouldn't preclude you from going "you know what, this is scum. Exe it." Sometimes you will not be correct, as I was incorrect on LC day 1. But you should do it anyway because when something is obviously scummy, most of the time it's going to be scum. That is what it means to be scummy.

I don’t believe that you believe it is so obviously scummy that it warrants this perspective. I don’t think Tony’s explanation is even unreasonable.

[Alison]

Hell now Kitsu has NO votes. You’re preaching to the choir.

Please read my posts and see how I am explicitly arguing against people theorizing that Kitsu is scum in the first place. I don't really care if they're voting Kitsu or not. It is incorrect to undermine the integrity of the towncore, and by extension the integrity of the POE, by casting doubt on Kitsu.

This is fear-mongering. Kitsu is fine. The connections folks have drawn only matter if you and/or Epignosis flip mafia, and even then it’s still a dialogue. If you in particular were to flip town after going on about this, it’s something people would have to consider.

which is why I'm saying it, so it's my legacy when I flip town

[Alison]

Because that’s how the town mind tends to work in a state of uncertainty.

I don't give things that I find obviously scummy a chance, and neither should you. If something could go one way or another, feel free to weigh the possibilities and to think about all sides of the equation, but if something is scum, it's scum, and doubting yourself about it is more likely to lead to you being manipulated by TWTBW arguments than to actual lead you in the direction of the truth. Will you be wrong sometimes anyway? Yes. But the possibility of being wrong shouldn't preclude you from going "you know what, this is scum. Exe it." Sometimes you will not be correct, as I was incorrect on LC day 1. But you should do it anyway because when something is obviously scummy, most of the time it's going to be scum. That is what it means to be scummy.

I don’t believe that you believe it is so obviously scummy that it warrants this perspective. I don’t think Tony’s explanation is even unreasonable.

Tony's explanation was hella unreasonable sorry. It creates ludicrous leaps of logic where those leaps are extremely unjustified. For it to make sense, he would have to come to the conclusion that there exists some kind of serial killer meta that sprityo would follow, that this meta consists of staying in a game despite being inactive instead of subbing out, and that he can assess all of this based on a sample size of one game. That is unreasonable thinking and its conclusions have been proven very wrong.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

which is why I'm saying it, so it's my legacy when I flip town

Very well. I promise to take that legacy seriously if you should end up chopped/killed and flip town.

Why do you suggest Epignosis would not help chop you?

[Alison]

which is why I'm saying it, so it's my legacy when I flip town

Very well. I promise to take that legacy seriously if you should end up chopped/killed and flip town.

Why do you suggest Epignosis would not help chop you?

because he has an established meta of not bussing? you know, the meta that you told me about?

[Alison]

like I said he hasn't done much that game and he comes out of nowhere and tries to lead a crusade against me and convince everyone that "there aren't townie gears spinning in alison's mind". That is certainly bussing.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

which is why I'm saying it, so it's my legacy when I flip town

Very well. I promise to take that legacy seriously if you should end up chopped/killed and flip town.

Why do you suggest Epignosis would not help chop you?

because he has an established meta of not bussing? you know, the meta that you told me about?

I didn’t realize you were still operating exclusively in the “bussing” territory with that comment. Okay.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

like I said he hasn't done much that game and he comes out of nowhere and tries to lead a crusade against me and convince everyone that "there aren't townie gears spinning in alison's mind". That is certainly bussing.

Nah

[Alison]

[epi/TSP/colin/alison] <- sort these. I don't care if you execute me as long as you follow the POE on everyone else and listen to my fucking legacy after I'm dead.

if the game still hasn't ended, execute JJJ (his arguments these past few pages have been extraordinarily bad) and sabie. If the game still hasn't ended, only then do you start tinfoiling about who in the towncore is a deep wolf.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

[epi/TSP/colin/alison] <- sort these. I don't care if you execute me as long as you follow the POE on everyone else and listen to my fucking legacy after I'm dead.

if the game still hasn't ended, execute JJJ (his arguments these past few pages have been extraordinarily bad) and sabie. If the game still hasn't ended, only then do you start tinfoiling about who in the towncore is a deep wolf.

Your arguments have been terrible.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

[VOTE: Epignosis] aubergine

[Alison]

[epi/TSP/colin/alison] <- sort these. I don't care if you execute me as long as you follow the POE on everyone else and listen to my fucking legacy after I'm dead.

if the game still hasn't ended, execute JJJ (his arguments these past few pages have been extraordinarily bad) and sabie. If the game still hasn't ended, only then do you start tinfoiling about who in the towncore is a deep wolf.

Your arguments have been terrible.

I don't care what you think. I'm writing how I see the game and I expect that legacy to be followed when I am proven to be a townie one way or another. Your attempts to attack me have been extremely misguided at best, and outright wolf-motivated at worst. Nothing you have said or alleged about me has been correct and I am extremely annoyed that people like Wisp and sabie are actually taking the case on me seriously. I basically disagree with everything they've done over the course of this game so I'm not surprised that they're doing something else I disagree with though.

[Alison]

@JaggedJimmyJay why are you doubting the POE at this stage in the game?

I’m not. You and Epignosis are both in it.

why are you pushing a me/epi/kitsu world then?

also I suggest you vote epi if you believe in that world since I'm going to help you execute him but he isn't going to help you execute me, so unless you have compelling reason to believe that I am significantly more likely to be scum than epi, you should be helping me bus my scum buddy.

just reread the page and realized that this could be construed as an instruction to vote epi. no clue if that was what motivated the vote on epi a couple of posts above, but just to be extra safe, I am instructing JaggedJimmyJay to vote for whoever they wish to.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Anyway, further debate over whose logic is the most valid and sound does not win this game. This dialogue has served it’s purpose for me and I will sleep on it. I hope others will share their perspectives.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I want to vote Epi anyway.

[Alison]

Anyway, further debate over whose logic is the most valid and sound does not win this game. This dialogue has served it’s purpose for me and I will sleep on it. I hope others will share their perspectives.

Fair enough. I don't think that is getting us anywhere either.

[sabie12]

I was actually just going to sleep anyway. It's all good. Have a great day all

[TonyStarkPrime]

Hey, I know I'm dropping off today. Heart's not in it right now. Ping me with questions.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Hey, I know I'm dropping off today. Heart's not in it right now. Ping me with questions.

Whaddya think of Alison’s most recent posts?

[Epignosis]

I am here. Powering through.

Over coffee.

[ColinIsCool]

All of Alison’s insistence that we just run through the same couple people and worry about the same couple people for basically the rest of the game feels strongly anti-town to me. You don’t win games by deciding who the scum is D2 and resting on those laurels. And as someone in the POE who is town, and who has some doubts on other people in the POE being scum, I’m telling you it’s a good idea to keep other suspects in mind.

[ColinIsCool]

Like, what good is the “consensus POE” (if there is one) if I’m in it? Because I know that’s a dead end. I don’t need you to tell me who to look at it if I’m supposed to be one of those people.

[ColinIsCool]

Like are you just KitsuShel’s teammate hard-defending her and telling us to stick to an incomplete list of suspects orrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[ColinIsCool]

Like, am I gonna keep on saying “like” like it’s going out of style?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I’m telling you it’s a good idea to keep other suspects in mind.

Valid concern, and I appreciate you fighting for it. Whether the mafia lie in the "generic" POE group we've been rehashing for days or more on the fringe (a la Kitsu), I think the game is okay. The worrisome scenarios come if someone being "confirmed" is a mafioso, or someone just outside the suspect group like sabie. Do you have any such concerns?

[Epignosis]

which is why I'm saying it, so it's my legacy when I flip town

Very well. I promise to take that legacy seriously if you should end up chopped/killed and flip town.

Why do you suggest Epignosis would not help chop you?

because he has an established meta of not bussing? you know, the meta that you told me about?

You keep raising this point in defense of yourself. Who are my teammates?

[ColinIsCool]

I’m telling you it’s a good idea to keep other suspects in mind.

Valid concern, and I appreciate you fighting for it. Whether the mafia lie in the "generic" POE group we've been rehashing for days or more on the fringe (a la Kitsu), I think the game is okay. The worrisome scenarios come if someone being "confirmed" is a mafioso, or someone just outside the suspect group like sabie. Do you have any such concerns?

Not really right now. Will have to see the game get whittled down a little before I start to majorly rethink some people I’ve sorted in my head.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I’m telling you it’s a good idea to keep other suspects in mind.

Valid concern, and I appreciate you fighting for it. Whether the mafia lie in the "generic" POE group we've been rehashing for days or more on the fringe (a la Kitsu), I think the game is okay. The worrisome scenarios come if someone being "confirmed" is a mafioso, or someone just outside the suspect group like sabie. Do you have any such concerns?

Not really right now. Will have to see the game get whittled down a little before I start to majorly rethink some people I’ve sorted in my head.

Your vote is on Tony. Does this still reflect your current feelings? I'd call him a "generic POE" name.

[ColinIsCool]

I’m telling you it’s a good idea to keep other suspects in mind.

Valid concern, and I appreciate you fighting for it. Whether the mafia lie in the "generic" POE group we've been rehashing for days or more on the fringe (a la Kitsu), I think the game is okay. The worrisome scenarios come if someone being "confirmed" is a mafioso, or someone just outside the suspect group like sabie. Do you have any such concerns?

Not really right now. Will have to see the game get whittled down a little before I start to majorly rethink some people I’ve sorted in my head.

Your vote is on Tony. Does this still reflect your current feelings? I'd call him a "generic POE" name.

He remains a suspect but I can’t say I feel very sure of his status. I still have to check out Epi’s posts so if I switch it’s probably either him, Kitsu (also in my POE) and maybe Alison because I feel like I have to check that out now.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

@ColinIsCool could you please describe the progression of your thoughts about KitsuShel since you first arrived?

Very blendy in general. I don’t have a meta read to rely on so I have to judge hunting/contributions/tone and nothing there inspires me to confidence. I gave KitsuShel a clear earlier in the game because of the notion that claiming miller without knowing what it’s called would be the kind of mistake a townie would make, but I think now that that is a bad reason to clear somebody. I struggle to find a reason to townread her.

have you not ever looked at kitsu's posts and go "this is obvious town"?

This is the only time Alison has directly addressed Colin in the last 36 hours or so. I'm not seeing much effort from her to sort this slot beyond "chop it".