Jack Attack Mafia (Day 5)

[Long Con]

Hey, you know me, I just like to go with the flow. You're in the POE, so I guess my vote is pretty legit. Sorry if I sprinkle in my own gut reads while I vote you.

I'm not disappointed in your for voting me (although I will try to get you to move your vote off me for obvious reasons). I will, however, be very disappointed if you and the rest of town don't follow my legacy.

Speaking of which: both me and Epi are in the POE. Why do you find me more suspicious than Epi?

You said you're a Miller, right? He can be checked and you can't. He's still a suspect.

[Millium]

[mention]Alison[/mention]
Why are you ok being in the POE, if you are against focusing the millers?

The only way I think mafia are winning this game, is if 1 or 2 are in the miller claims. Because we now have people that need to die, which means we don't get much new information from kills
Hally/Me/Long Con/Nutella/Daisy

[Millium]

I wanted to try to iso dive both Egi and Alison, but I won't have time
I work up until an hour before EoD

[Alison]

If you have a reason to clear Kitsu then you need to go ahead and claim it. But I don’t think you do because you keep saying we can get to her after the POE is exhausted, and if she was definitively cleared, you would never entertain the idea.

The reason I have to clear Kitsu is public - I think her claim was a genuine townslip and her play has been townie to me.

Also everyone not in my POE is cleared. If the POE is exhausted and the game hasn't ended that means someone, somehow, has a fake clear on them. Under those circumstances, I would re-evaluate my read on Kitsu. Not before then.

[Alison]

@Alison
Why are you ok being in the POE, if you are against focusing the millers?

The only way I think mafia are winning this game, is if 1 or 2 are in the miller claims. Because we now have people that need to die, which means we don't get much new information from kills
Hally/Me/Long Con/Nutella/Daisy

I don't understand this question.

[Alison]

Hey, you know me, I just like to go with the flow. You're in the POE, so I guess my vote is pretty legit. Sorry if I sprinkle in my own gut reads while I vote you.

I'm not disappointed in your for voting me (although I will try to get you to move your vote off me for obvious reasons). I will, however, be very disappointed if you and the rest of town don't follow my legacy.

Speaking of which: both me and Epi are in the POE. Why do you find me more suspicious than Epi?

You said you're a Miller, right? He can be checked and you can't. He's still a suspect.

It's a reasonable vote from your point of view. That's why I said I'm not disappointed in you for voting me.

[Millium]

I saw somewhere that you made of PoE of like 4 including you, but you also don't want to focus the millers
so it just pings me

[Alison]

I saw somewhere that you made of PoE of like 4 including you, but you also don't want to focus the millers
so it just pings me

What does "don't want to focus the millers" mean? I don't understand that part.

[ColinIsCool]

If you have a reason to clear Kitsu then you need to go ahead and claim it. But I don’t think you do because you keep saying we can get to her after the POE is exhausted, and if she was definitively cleared, you would never entertain the idea.

The reason I have to clear Kitsu is public - I think her claim was a genuine townslip and her play has been townie to me.

Also everyone not in my POE is cleared. If the POE is exhausted and the game hasn't ended that means someone, somehow, has a fake clear on them. Under those circumstances, I would re-evaluate my read on Kitsu. Not before then.

Ok, so Kitsu isn’t cleared at all, you just read her as town, got it.

[Millium]

It is important to sort the POE [Alison/Epi/TSP/Colin]

here

[Millium]

Nevermind, I think I am making shit up, I didnt see any mention of what I just said in your ISO

[KitsuShel]

[VOTE: Epignosis] aubergine

I think Alison has made heartfelt responses. And the fact that she’s being logical about the entire situation by keeping herself in the POE makes me feel like she’s being genuine.

But if Epi flips town, then I think that might a nail in the coffin.

[Long Con]

Hey, you know me, I just like to go with the flow. You're in the POE, so I guess my vote is pretty legit. Sorry if I sprinkle in my own gut reads while I vote you.

I'm not disappointed in your for voting me (although I will try to get you to move your vote off me for obvious reasons). I will, however, be very disappointed if you and the rest of town don't follow my legacy.

Speaking of which: both me and Epi are in the POE. Why do you find me more suspicious than Epi?

You said you're a Miller, right? He can be checked and you can't. He's still a suspect.

It's a reasonable vote from your point of view. That's why I said I'm not disappointed in you for voting me.

When I have the Alison Seal of Approval™, I feel more confident.

[Millium]

tied wagons, how exciting
[mention]ColinIsCool[/mention]
why are u shading Alison, while sitting on Tony?

[ColinIsCool]

tied wagons, how exciting
@ColinIsCool
why are u shading Alison, while sitting on Tony?

I haven’t finished reading through Alison or Epi’s posts. Once I do, I’ll solidify a vote.

[ColinIsCool]

Really I think you're way more focused on coordination and POE than actually making a list of the people on the scum team. I understand this is your playstyle which is why I'm not scumreading you for it, and in theory it comes to the same conclusion as straight scumreading people, but it only really bears fruit (ie. identifies the scum team) very late in the game by definition because it involves a slow process of elimination. So obviously as early as N1 I can't say that you've actually tried very hard to pin down the mafia.

[Alison]

Really I think you're way more focused on coordination and POE than actually making a list of the people on the scum team. I understand this is your playstyle which is why I'm not scumreading you for it, and in theory it comes to the same conclusion as straight scumreading people, but it only really bears fruit (ie. identifies the scum team) very late in the game by definition because it involves a slow process of elimination. So obviously as early as N1 I can't say that you've actually tried very hard to pin down the mafia.

"Townies should try to find other townies, and also try to find scum members. JJJ finds other townies, but not scum members. This is ordinarily scummy, but since it's a part of JJJ's meta, and is also suited to this game, I'll accept it."

[ColinIsCool]

I read Allison. It’s like night-and-day where I find myself nodding along (through N1 especially) and then shaking my head in disagreement (everything for the last 16 hours or so). I can definitely see a world where we are both townies who disagree on what’s prudent, but the general rigidity in belief throughout is not something I would usually associate with a townie. Still in POE

[Millium]

I'll try to be around, I gotta head to work for 7 hours

[TonyStarkPrime]

Hey, I know I'm dropping off today. Heart's not in it right now. Ping me with questions.

Whaddya think of Alison’s most recent posts?

I don't quite know. It feels like sort of textbook "grasping at straws" but calling out the Kitsu chop as being bad feels sort of genuine and I think the point about Epi bussing here feels genuine. I decidd that the latter is NAI -- scum, if they feel like they've distanced successfully, want the credit for it and that's Alison trying to claim that. I don't think it's substantially less likely to be Epi/Alison/X from her posts.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Really I think you're way more focused on coordination and POE than actually making a list of the people on the scum team. I understand this is your playstyle which is why I'm not scumreading you for it, and in theory it comes to the same conclusion as straight scumreading people, but it only really bears fruit (ie. identifies the scum team) very late in the game by definition because it involves a slow process of elimination. So obviously as early as N1 I can't say that you've actually tried very hard to pin down the mafia.

"Townies should try to find other townies, and also try to find scum members. JJJ finds other townies, but not scum members. This is ordinarily scummy, but since it's a part of JJJ's meta, and is also suited to this game, I'll accept it."

It’s also a visibly untrue view of my play.

[ColinIsCool]

If I was a younger man, I would make a list of everyone who has claimed miller, everyone who has invited an investigative role to check them out, everyone who was mechanically cleared, and then see who I had left.

[ColinIsCool]

Note that we need to remain in a state of high urgency at all times. Jack is a host from the HC Realms tree, and that means we cannot trust conventional assumptions about how alignments may be distributed. When I see 15 players, I tend to assume 12 vs. 3 is the most standard. With Jack though, I will not count out 11 vs. 4 or even 10 vs. 5 (with potential independent involvement too). It depends upon the arrangements of the roles he has decided to feature.

The point is that we cannot fart around in a Jack game. Play hard at all times or suffer the consequences.

I just want to say I laugh at this post every time I see it. Whether he is town or scum you gotta admit Epi’s GIF gamr is unmatched.

[TonyStarkPrime]

I don't particularly see her argument throughout her posts but I don't think that's a scum tell. I'm currently voting for Epi but I've gone back and forth and could find myself swayed by the non-miller point and more elaborate cases.

[ColinIsCool]

I don’t see any reason to vote for Epi instead of other people in the POE. I see a town mindset and largely find myself empathizing with his viewpoint.

My decision’s not final but I feel a hell of a lot better about Epi than I expected to, and they’re tied, so [VOTE: Alison] aubergine

[ColinIsCool]

Can someone remind me why nutella has been removed from POEs? Cleared via info?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Tony’s waffling continues to be so inconclusive that it looks deliberate to me.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Can someone remind me why nutella has been removed from POEs? Cleared via info?

Wisp and Daisy checks

[TonyStarkPrime]

Tony’s waffling continues to be so inconclusive that it looks deliberate to me.

there may be something else afoot that makes it more necessary.
consider this a very soft claim

[ColinIsCool]

Current vote distribution:

Alison (6): Wisp, Long Con, sabie, Colin, Epignosis, JJJ

Epignosis (5): Hally, nutella, Alison, Tony, KitsuShel

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Tony’s waffling continues to be so inconclusive that it looks deliberate to me.

there may be something else afoot that makes it more necessary.
consider this a very soft claim

[TonyStarkPrime]

But also I think Jay's switched his vote more times than I have

[TonyStarkPrime]

Who's mafia, Jay?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Who's mafia, Jay?

With a gun to my head I would say Alison, Epignosis, and Tony.

[Alison]

The suddenness of this attack on me really feels like an attempt to counterwagon Epi tbh

[ColinIsCool]

Having just read Epi’s posts, I don’t know if I see a world where he and Alison are teammates. His problems with her poking at him feels consistent and beyond the expected level of distancing.

(That said, if there ever were a game for Epi to bus, it would be the one where everyone makes a scene about how he doesn’t bus.)

[Alison]

Like way too many people piled on me in way too short period of time. I think scum is just happy to exe me because it saves Epi, and that reinforces my feeling on Epi. Either way I think it's incorrect to vote outside of me and Epi today. In fact I would find it actively suspicious not to.

[ColinIsCool]

Either way I think it's incorrect to vote outside of me and Epi today. In fact I would find it actively suspicious not to.

I don't know if this needs to be the case. We all have our guns drawn against each other right now, but there are other reasonable chops to make today and I wouldn't want to get totally complacent several hours before EOD.

[TonyStarkPrime]

The suddenness of this attack on me really feels like an attempt to counterwagon Epi tbh

who's trying to counterwagon epi?

[TonyStarkPrime]

like I agree that it's probably incorrect not to chop one of Alison or Epi. I have no sense over who is more likely to be scum independently. My gut says Epi, but the mechanics point means that if Alison is town and Epi is scum we're sorta likely to find out

[Hally]

let it rand

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I agree.

Imagine a hypothetical world wherein you have chopped two among [Colin, Tony, Epignosis] and both have flipped civilian. It's ExLo now. Have you done your job as a civilian?

[Alison]

I agree.

Imagine a hypothetical world wherein you have chopped two among [Colin, Tony, Epignosis] and both have flipped civilian. It's ExLo now. Have you done your job as a civilian?

Obviously not since I still need to catch scum?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I agree.

Imagine a hypothetical world wherein you have chopped two among [Colin, Tony, Epignosis] and both have flipped civilian. It's ExLo now. Have you done your job as a civilian?

Obviously not since I still need to catch scum?

The point is that your methodology has, in that scenario, walked the civilian team to ExLo without any prior preparation for the alternative theorizing or tinfoiling that would then be a necessity.

[Alison]

I agree.

Imagine a hypothetical world wherein you have chopped two among [Colin, Tony, Epignosis] and both have flipped civilian. It's ExLo now. Have you done your job as a civilian?

Obviously not since I still need to catch scum?

The point is that your methodology has, in that scenario, walked the civilian team to ExLo without any prior preparation for the alternative theorizing or tinfoiling that would then be a necessity.

What do you mean "prior preparation"

In this scenario many of the towncore would be killed by mafia in the first place, so those kills will inform your hunting for the deepwolf far better than throwing out baseless speculation while we're still in the POE

[JaggedJimmyJay]

What do you mean "prior preparation"

In this scenario many of the towncore would be killed by mafia in the first place, so those kills will inform your hunting for the deepwolf far better than throwing out baseless speculation while we're still in the POE

If the first effort given toward vigilant investigation of "town core" players is at or near Exlo, then the probability of that town getting the answer right is well lower than it needs to be. I think your second sentence is completely untrue, because speculation is not "baseless"; at least not anymore than speculation about what makes the POE pool valid.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

The suddenness of this attack on me really feels like an attempt to counterwagon Epi tbh

who's trying to counterwagon epi?

You should answer this question, Alison.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Alison your general approach to this game is hard to buy. For a while you called me a suspect because of my orientation toward a POE approach (even as I named and cased suspects along the way). Now your adherence to the POE is more radical than anything I have ever espoused in this game. It's more radical than anything Nanook ever espoused in this game.

By the Alison method, we don't sort players in our POE group. We just chop them. The end. No discussion. No chatter. Nothing. Don't talk to them. Just kill them and go from there. That's glorified i n f o - c h o p p i n g and does not reflect the dedicated hunt of the uninformed faction.

[Alison]

The suddenness of this attack on me really feels like an attempt to counterwagon Epi tbh

who's trying to counterwagon epi?

You should answer this question, Alison.

epi, colin, you, sabie

are individuals I think look bad once I flip town

(please remember and refer to this post once I flip thanks)

[Alison]

What do you mean "prior preparation"

In this scenario many of the towncore would be killed by mafia in the first place, so those kills will inform your hunting for the deepwolf far better than throwing out baseless speculation while we're still in the POE

If the first effort given toward vigilant investigation of "town core" players is at or near Exlo, then the probability of that town getting the answer right is well lower than it needs to be. I think your second sentence is completely untrue, because speculation is not "baseless"; at least not anymore than speculation about what makes the POE pool valid.

It is baseless in the sense that it flies in the face of <whatever it is we believe makes the towncore cleared>

Like if I went out there right now and called Wisp scum, that would be baseless because we have strong evidence that Wisp is town, and doing so would only be hurtful to town. I believe the same is true for all members of the towncore.