Philosophers' Mafia [ENDGAME]

[WerewolfHunter]

Also,

single double
nutella
iaafr
hally
tutuu
coliniscool
nanook

at least four vowels
coliniscool
colonialbob
dyslexicon
master radishes
nanook(thegreatandfearsome)
protocultures
timsup2nothin
werewolfhunter

dirty normies
alison
amy
benson
kza
long con


@iaafr do ur magic

27/60

lol. I love the way this is structured. I agree with some of these but not all of them

Which ones do you disagree with?

32/60

I recently posted a reads list. I believe it's on this or the last post

33 page I mean

[Master Radishes]

I read through what I missed. Ask me for further commentary if you desire, but I’m going to spend my day doing life admin I’ve been putting off and then playing with my new headphones until my eardrums burst.

My reads generally remain the same. I’m ready to call iaafr town. I think my reservations mainly revolve around post limitations. When I’ve read some of his more recent posts more closely I nod along to them. On the other end, Tim is trending down. The LC townread has a strength that confuses me. And his handling of me feels opportunistic. Like, he began the game just shooting the breeze with me, then as soon as a few others voiced suspicion of me he acted like he’d been uncertain of me all along as well, even voting alongside me but making a deal out of not trusting me either.

I’m keeping my vote on Hally for now. She’s amazing at keeping a pure tone even as a wolf and I see nothing I would consider good enough yet to put her out of that range. The slot was scummy before and it could easily have been a case of RWSTFO. Her scumreads also feel cleverly opportunistic, like three people who have all faced some heat but not too much. I’m probably in confbias territory, but if she’s town I think I’ll get there eventually and I’m not there yet.

im not sure what you’re talking about re: cleverly opportunistic. i disagree with that characterization. i didn’t know what anyone’s reads on you or anyone else were when i began reading and stated my reads as they developed

i thought nut was wolfy at first, later on she became townier. i thought nanook was underwhelming but i wanna let him be and am not interested in yeeting there. i don’t find amy wolfy despite her being my counterwagon. i find colonialbob kinda wolfy even though i think i’m the only one who does so far. i find you wolfy and apparently am not alone in that atm, but i didn’t know that before i read

i’m really not sure how any of this qualifies as “cleverly opportunistic.” it’s not

Your three scumreads as I noticed them were me, Nanook, and nutella. I was just getting shade from other corners, nutella had already received shade that was just dying off, and Nanook had gotten a few shrugs and is clearly lhf so far. When I say 'cleverly opportunistic' I mean that those are the exact sort of players I would cast dirt on if I subbed into a widely-scumread scum slot and wanted to get the attention directed elsewhere.

Like I said in my previous post, I could have fallen down a confbias tunnel and haven't found a way out yet, but those choices of scumreads just seem so convenient if I'm right that you're a wolf.

I hope I'm wrong because you're a joy to play with, and I'm looking elsewhere anyway because I don't think I'm getting my way on you today, so maybe we find each other in D2 and we can put this behind us. But you're saddled by your slot's baggage and while you haven't been scummy yourself per se, you've not said or done anything yet that makes me want to change my mind about your slot.

eh. it’s hard because confirmation bias is a real thing. i honestly don’t know how to separate townies who are confbiasing my play into being wolfy because omg sc was evil and wolves who are pretending to confbias because they’d really like to be able to get me mislimed here. subbing into a widely scum read slot means that i’m necessarily gonna have to contend with the baggage sc accumulated and it’s going to affect how people read me even if they’re approaching me in good faith. benson, for example, i think is town who is just confbiasing. radishes could be a wolf trying to hold on to the push because i don’t feel he actually gave my play a fair shake at all. with benson i can see the gears turning as he tries to evaluate me even though he comes to a conclusion that’s incorrect. i don’t feel radishes has actually evaluated me in the same way so far. alison i’m torn on because we have such different ways of thinking that i can buy she genuinely doesnt like my play, but i also think she would exploit that as a wolf

idk it’s hard to evaluate tbh

I can accept that maybe I haven't given your play a fair shake. I was feeling lazy/demotivated earlier when catching up because I'm being put under the spotlight on D1 again and that's been happening a lot lately, regardless of alignment, and the more it happens the more I'm finding my enjoyment sapped. (Not specifically in this game, just speaking generally about Mafia.)

If I find time (this is not a promise; I'm making dinner and spending the evening with my wife) I'll iso you again later and leave some more detailed thoughts.

[nutella]

you weren't really getting much shade until relatively recently and hally hadn't gotten to it in their catchup yet. they developed a suspicion of you independently afaict.

[iaafr]

something something bob/amy wagons

also radishes was getting some d0/earlyd1 sideeyeing it was definitely a thing, i know because i was part of it

[nutella]

that's been happening a lot lately, regardless of alignment,

oh? when was the last time you were a wolf and this happened?

[tutuu]

yes u did call him mafia wtf tim lol

radish, i think nanook's soft was "let me live for a couple of days" or something of the sort

i mean he was town regardless, stop bothering him lol

also i think radish is town for making post 778 in the public thread and not in wolf chat

tim, i think u are pushing 2 town. nanook and proto. i might be wrong on my reads in which case i apologize, but i also might be wrong on my reads in the sense that i might have wrongly townread u

I push on mafia looking posts and events. Most of those are gonna come from town. That's the nature of day one. I'm not trying to kill Proto. I'm not really trying to kill Nanook even though I put a vote on him. This is all just stirring the day one pot and looking at what is floating around.

I am a solver sometimes, but never an instant solver. I actually count more on stronger readers than myself to analyze all this stuff. I just man the oar and keep the pot stirred, mostly.

No need to apologize for making reads. If they are wrong they are wrong, but no one bats a thousand...even if Nanook is claiming that he does.

@Master Radishes in some cultures "you aren't killing me today" is "secret code" for "I have a claim to make that will stop you." To me it is about the dumbest 'soft' there is, and I absolutely hate softs of every stripe. The wolves always see the soft, so the only thing accomplished by softing rather than just claiming is that some, most, or all of the town will be confused. The "you aren't killing me" soft is the worst because it does get treated by some players as if it were some sort of wink and nod secret that only "the elite" players who just never rand wolf think they know about.

@Benson I acknowledge your point and no I am no more interested in chopping him than I was in chopping Amy, and do not really expect that it will be happening.

@NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME I apologize for failing to treat you with the assumed respect that you think you have earned in previous play. I am just a rube from the hinterlands and unaware of the history and traditions of your little pond here. I have however played with Visorslash, Amrock, Pizza, Zack, and a fair number of other players of substantial reputation and have been insufficiently respectful towards all of them as well, so you are in good company.

im gonna spend one of my last 5 posts just to say how funny the last part is. its like, i imagined tim droppin the mic after that line. holy moly LMFAO :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame:

[Master Radishes]

Spoiler: show

30/60

[VOTE: Benson] aubergine

I will probably consolodate later today on someone who has more votes.

Also, assuming the poll is the official

Okay, so,

Why Benson?

and

Why Benson if you're openly admitting you're not going to stay there?

31/60

In my reads list he was one of my evil leans so I like to state them.

However, at the end I like my vote to have influential value which does not happen when your on one of the players with only a single vote.

I also like feeling how each votes feels. Not sure if feeling is the best word but it's a term I use

Okay but why is he on your evils list?

I also don't get why you need to announce your intentions? It makes it seem like you're worried about how you'll be perceived?

Spoiler: show

Also,

single double
nutella
iaafr
hally
tutuu
coliniscool
nanook

at least four vowels
coliniscool
colonialbob
dyslexicon
master radishes
nanook(thegreatandfearsome)
protocultures
timsup2nothin
werewolfhunter

dirty normies
alison
amy
benson
kza
long con


@iaafr do ur magic

27/60

lol. I love the way this is structured. I agree with some of these but not all of them

Which ones do you disagree with?

32/60

I recently posted a reads list. I believe it's on this or the last post

Right...but you might want to check nutella's 'readslist' again. It's not a real one.

[Master Radishes]

that's been happening a lot lately, regardless of alignment,

oh? when was the last time you were a wolf and this happened?

Haunted by Slep.

Also games on CDC.

[Master Radishes]

you weren't really getting much shade until relatively recently and hally hadn't gotten to it in their catchup yet. they developed a suspicion of you independently afaict.

Maybe? Keep in mind though I wake up after all of you have posted a bunch, so it all feels fairly simultaneous to me.

And as Rabbit said I did get a bit earlier in the game too.

[WerewolfHunter]

Spoiler: show

30/60

[VOTE: Benson] aubergine

I will probably consolodate later today on someone who has more votes.

Also, assuming the poll is the official

Okay, so,

Why Benson?

and

Why Benson if you're openly admitting you're not going to stay there?

31/60

In my reads list he was one of my evil leans so I like to state them.

However, at the end I like my vote to have influential value which does not happen when your on one of the players with only a single vote.

I also like feeling how each votes feels. Not sure if feeling is the best word but it's a term I use

Okay but why is he on your evils list?

I also don't get why you need to announce your intentions? It makes it seem like you're worried about how you'll be perceived?

Spoiler: show

Also,

single double
nutella
iaafr
hally
tutuu
coliniscool
nanook

at least four vowels
coliniscool
colonialbob
dyslexicon
master radishes
nanook(thegreatandfearsome)
protocultures
timsup2nothin
werewolfhunter

dirty normies
alison
amy
benson
kza
long con


@iaafr do ur magic

27/60

lol. I love the way this is structured. I agree with some of these but not all of them

Which ones do you disagree with?

32/60

I recently posted a reads list. I believe it's on this or the last post

Right...but you might want to check nutella's 'readslist' again. It's not a real one.

34/60
For me, I take things way too seriously lol.

I also never reread my posts to see how they sounds to the others.

I think maybe I might come of as being worried about how I am perceived as I've often been day 1 misyeeted in many games.

I also often never follow through my actions so saying them will force me to either articulate why I am not moving or make me move my vote. Having another player sometimes actually makes me follow through with what I say.

[tutuu]

oh now i feel bad for saying it

sorry nanook, i thought that you would laugh at tim's post. if i knew how u reacted i wouldnt have laughed. sorry

[tutuu]

werewolfhunter had me as scumread and now is voting beluga whale

girl WHAT ARE U DOING

this isnt reverse mafia u know, we arent supposed to vote the towniest people!!

[nutella]

that's been happening a lot lately, regardless of alignment,

oh? when was the last time you were a wolf and this happened?

Haunted by Slep.

Also games on CDC.

oh right lmao

erased that from my memory already

[Master Radishes]

that's been happening a lot lately, regardless of alignment,

oh? when was the last time you were a wolf and this happened?

Haunted by Slep.

Also games on CDC.

oh right lmao

erased that from my memory already

Believe me I want to too.

[Master Radishes]

Spoiler: show

30/60

[VOTE: Benson] aubergine

I will probably consolodate later today on someone who has more votes.

Also, assuming the poll is the official

Okay, so,

Why Benson?

and

Why Benson if you're openly admitting you're not going to stay there?

31/60

In my reads list he was one of my evil leans so I like to state them.

However, at the end I like my vote to have influential value which does not happen when your on one of the players with only a single vote.

I also like feeling how each votes feels. Not sure if feeling is the best word but it's a term I use

Okay but why is he on your evils list?

I also don't get why you need to announce your intentions? It makes it seem like you're worried about how you'll be perceived?

Spoiler: show

Also,

single double
nutella
iaafr
hally
tutuu
coliniscool
nanook

at least four vowels
coliniscool
colonialbob
dyslexicon
master radishes
nanook(thegreatandfearsome)
protocultures
timsup2nothin
werewolfhunter

dirty normies
alison
amy
benson
kza
long con


@iaafr do ur magic

27/60

lol. I love the way this is structured. I agree with some of these but not all of them

Which ones do you disagree with?

32/60

I recently posted a reads list. I believe it's on this or the last post

Right...but you might want to check nutella's 'readslist' again. It's not a real one.

34/60
For me, I take things way too seriously lol.

I also never reread my posts to see how they sounds to the others.

I think maybe I might come of as being worried about how I am perceived as I've often been day 1 misyeeted in many games.

I also often never follow through my actions so saying them will force me to either articulate why I am not moving or make me move my vote. Having another player sometimes actually makes me follow through with what I say.

I'm still not clear on why you think Benson is evil.

[Master Radishes]

WH's latest posts have many inconsistencies to nitpick.

So she's probably just town.

Gonna go eat dinner now.

[WerewolfHunter]

Spoiler: show

30/60

[VOTE: Benson] aubergine

I will probably consolodate later today on someone who has more votes.

Also, assuming the poll is the official

Okay, so,

Why Benson?

and

Why Benson if you're openly admitting you're not going to stay there?

35/60


31/60

In my reads list he was one of my evil leans so I like to state them.

However, at the end I like my vote to have influential value which does not happen when your on one of the players with only a single vote.

I also like feeling how each votes feels. Not sure if feeling is the best word but it's a term I use

Okay but why is he on your evils list?

I also don't get why you need to announce your intentions? It makes it seem like you're worried about how you'll be perceived?

Spoiler: show

Also,

single double
nutella
iaafr
hally
tutuu
coliniscool
nanook

at least four vowels
coliniscool
colonialbob
dyslexicon
master radishes
nanook(thegreatandfearsome)
protocultures
timsup2nothin
werewolfhunter

dirty normies
alison
amy
benson
kza
long con


@iaafr do ur magic

27/60

lol. I love the way this is structured. I agree with some of these but not all of them

Which ones do you disagree with?

32/60

I recently posted a reads list. I believe it's on this or the last post

Right...but you might want to check nutella's 'readslist' again. It's not a real one.

34/60
For me, I take things way too seriously lol.

I also never reread my posts to see how they sounds to the others.

I think maybe I might come of as being worried about how I am perceived as I've often been day 1 misyeeted in many games.

I also often never follow through my actions so saying them will force me to either articulate why I am not moving or make me move my vote. Having another player sometimes actually makes me follow through with what I say.

I'm still not clear on why you think Benson is evil.

35/60

I have trouble articulating my reads on individuals. I think it's mostly gut feeling here. I don't mean this to offend but noting from his post seemed to make me lean town on him

[tutuu]

WH's latest posts have many inconsistencies to nitpick.

So she's probably just town.

Gonna go eat dinner now.

i appreciate u master radishes

i wish id see more reads like this

maybe if ppl made more reads like this id finally win a game on the syndicate

[tutuu]

the mafia team is colonialbob + hally + kza + nutella btw

[Timsup2nothin]

ATTENTION VILLAGERS

In about six hours we ARE going to kill someone. Many of you are clinging to that time you remember "reading a wolf day one, wowee, yowzaa!!!" You are ignoring the fact that yes, bad wolves do sometimes rand wolf and do stupid shit on day one, but statistically speaking actual killing of wolves on day one happens less than rand even with a genius reader like you in the game, so get over it. We are very likely to be wrong, and need to get our heads around being responsible about that.

Five wagons of two or three is not a formation that catches wolves; and by that I don't mean today. It is a formation that allows the wolves to be hiding all over the place so that when day three rolls around and people have actual information to work with they look back and say "Ugh, WTF were we doing there?" So we need to start tightening up this ship.

If you are on some vanity wagon because you think you spotted a wolf that has somehow slipped past everyone else and been wrongly townread...get over it. WerewolfHunter I am in fact talking to you. Your point is noted. Benson will not be getting a free pass. He will be closely examined. But if you read the room you will see he isn't getting chopped today unless by some travesty we scatter votes from hell to breakfast and someone gets chopped with like three votes.

If you are on one of the wagons that is currently "in the running" with a couple votes and a candidate that was in the low end of my grouping post you need to decide soon if it is a wagon you are really going to push for at EoD or more of a "meh, gotta be somewhere" or a "see what happens" wagon. If it is you need to find someone who IS willing to push that you are willing to get behind, that is pushing a candidate you are not only willing to not play with tomorrow, but is also maybe a wolf and also might really be chopped today.

The group I am talking to there includes myself. Tweaking Nanook's nose was fun. Seeing Bob pile on there was...informative. But he isn't going to get killed today and I was pretty sure that was true when I voted for him. Those of you on the Hally wagon need to assess whether anyone there is likely to push it across the finish line and take responsibility just in case she flips green. The Whale and I have expressed similar doubts about the wisdom of casting Radishes aside if he is a villager so those on the Radish wagon might want to take a look at the room also.

I think in a game this size, in order for EoD not to turn into a manic shitshow of flashwagon chaos we should probably get settled on two or three good wagons that could actually have a shot.

I have four posts left so don't count on me saying a lot in this process.

[VOTE: ColonialBob] aubergine

[iaafr]

ive never gotten the argument that scattered wagons are inherently harder to catch scum with than consolidated wagons tbqh

[Timsup2nothin]

ive never gotten the argument that scattered wagons are inherently harder to catch scum with than consolidated wagons tbqh

Well, really I'm just trying to stir things up because MOVEMENT is what really makes for reads. If there had been like consolidated wagons already I would have made a different movement inducing speech. Thanks for blowing the gig Rabbit.

[iaafr]

hey you just blew the gig with that post, not me, you coulda doubled down or ignored it

[Benson]

A'ight, I'm jumping ship here.

Don't like the great wall of Radishes mostly because it is a day one wall case. Also, can't say I have great confidence in Radishes intentions generally. In other words, Radishes you tend your end of this boat and I'll tend mine.

[VOTE: Scirrus] aubergine

I do lean @Alison pretty strong town, and her sense on Scirrus seemed to support my own pretty well.

this post kinda confusing me. you don’t like radishes wallcase on sc and don’t trust him but you’re sheeping him anyway? or...? idgi

I was actually kinda annoyed at being on the name wagon with Radishes because there was a lot I didn't like about his casing and his overall play this game...but...

Alison and I had previously come to a kind of agreement against Scirrus of our own and that was my preferred landing spot when the Nutella wagon blew out from under me (kinda went through the same process you did, it just took longer because it was real time happening. Now I have the classic problem...you are doing great work and seem towny, plus being a potentially very valuable townie that might well crack the game...but Scirrus really butchered that slot IMO.

I've actually been looking for a place to move my vote and just pass your slot for the day, but haven't reached a conclusion yet on where to go.

To be honest I don't think anything Hally has done has redeemed the slot for me and I'm slightly confused why people find her so town. Which of her posts did you like?

Her catch up path from Amy to Nutella to Nanook tracked pretty much exactly with my path in real time. That implies to me that she read all that with a towny mindset because I conveniently know that I read all that with a towny mindset. Since you don't have hard evidence that I have a towny mindset this argument is less convincing to you than it is to me.

I'm also factoring in that Rabbit never hard defended Scirrus, but he did disagree with our read there.

@Benson, this is the main reason I decided to townclear both Hally and Tim. That kind of large scale mindmeld is usually just t/t. Sure, Tim could be a wolf exaggerating/leaning on comparing Hally's thought process to his own, or Hally could be a wolf whose performed progression in thread just happened to line up with Tim's, or they could be w/w but that seems incredibly unlikely. Occam's razor says they're just both townies who had reasonable reactions to the development of myself and others in the thread. I would of course reevaluate them later down the line if need be, but I have zero interest in doing so today. They're just town.

I think that's way too tenuous to townclear when you aren't supposed to know either of their alignments to begin with.
Like Hally just could be good at faking that type of progression.
I don't really think Tim is a wolf but I can think of reasons for him doing that if Hally is town or is they're w/w. It doesn't seem like something so unlikely that you have to remove it from all possibilities.

To me, it's such a reckless townclear.


Another thing: what did you think of Scirrus before the sub? Several players were sussing him but you were relatively quiet regarding him. Why?

[Benson]

Anyway, thanks tutuu and Tim. Softs aren’t my thing; unless someone says like ‘I’m gonna shoot you in the face tonight’ I probably won’t notice it.

I'm gonna shoot you in the face tonight for disrespecting my wolf game.


Also, I'm probably not putting a high priority on protecting softs in a game that's been described as "light role madness".

[nutella]

Well like I said it's not a "never ever rescind" townclear, it's "I'm never voting for these people today and probably not in the near future"
I really don't think Hally's progression was faked though. Tim maybe the slightly weaker clear for that.

I went back and forth on Scirrus a bit. I didn't like his RP entrance, but I started liking his catchup posts and felt he was responding to various things with a genuine mindset, and then I made the comparison to the lion king game and went back to feeling less good about him.

Interestingly, Dizzy had a scumread of scirrus, but hasn't acknowledged hally since the sub. I find myself kind of trapped in a loop where I've decided I'm trusting hally, so I have to trust their godread on dizzy, but if dizzy still scumreads hally I have to listen to that as well and worry if hally was just trying to pocket dizzy....

[WerewolfHunter]

37/60

Just a heads up that there is a severe thunderstorm warning so might lose internet.

Also, I will mostly skim over the larger posts rather than read them all in detail

[Dyslexicon]

Interestingly, Dizzy had a scumread of scirrus, but hasn't acknowledged hally since the sub. I find myself kind of trapped in a loop where I've decided I'm trusting hally, so I have to trust their godread on dizzy, but if dizzy still scumreads hally I have to listen to that as well and worry if hally was just trying to pocket dizzy....

What does this even mean and why do you need to think about it?

I've seen Scirrus's post count. I registered that Hally was in the game. That is the extent of my knowledge this game. I'm going to be very much a back seat player this game, just because of time constraints.

Scum lean on this post.

[colonialbob]

Three town (IAAFR tutuu radishes) down, too many more to go

just gonna note randomly that this pinged me as potentially scum with radishes (because i dont think radishes has been nearly as towny as me and tutuu and this kind of early declaration of 3 townreads comes from scum a decent amount) but this is like

an extremely weak read

posting it anyway because why not

ok you are now a town read

26/60
sorry my catchup is slightly backwards because this caught my attention.

I feel that Hally and I have the same read on Iaafr which I feel means that Hally is more likely town

Why would sharing a read with Hally (especially "iaafr is town") make you feel this way?

[WerewolfHunter]

38/60

In response to Tim's perspective on me I actually feel I should do the opposite and not second guess myself so much. However, I do like my vote to matter in the end

[nutella]

Interestingly, Dizzy had a scumread of scirrus, but hasn't acknowledged hally since the sub. I find myself kind of trapped in a loop where I've decided I'm trusting hally, so I have to trust their godread on dizzy, but if dizzy still scumreads hally I have to listen to that as well and worry if hally was just trying to pocket dizzy....

What does this even mean and why do you need to think about it?

I've seen Scirrus's post count. I registered that Hally was in the game. That is the extent of my knowledge this game. I'm going to be very much a back seat player this game, just because of time constraints.

Scum lean on this post.

lol hi

thoughts on hally please

[Timsup2nothin]

hey you just blew the gig with that post, not me, you coulda doubled down or ignored it

It was more fun to poke at you. Plus I doubt the gig is actually blown, because I think people will still look at the wagon they are on and the ones that don't have a good reason for where they are will move. And some wolves might feel forced to make moves if a lot of other people move. (hint, villagers, get with program)

[mention]Benson[/mention] I think you worry too much about "reckless town clears." I think there are maybe three or four people in this game that I worry about actually locking themselves in. Everyone else can say "clear" as much as they want and I am pretty comfortable that they will be reassessing overnight if they aren't already. If someone says "yeah, Benson seems towny, don't kill him today" I'm fine with not killing you today. If they wanna express it as "Benson clear," I can deal with the shorthand.

We have a handful of people that basically NO ONE is speaking up for, and I have little doubt that we will kill one of them. We MIGHT kill a wolf, but yeah that leaves (assumed) three more and some of them are gonna be lurking among the people that someone said "not today" over. Look at Radishes. I'm accepting a "not today" call from you there. I don't think that either of us would bet the house that he isn't a wolf. We're just giving him more time to prove he isn't if he isn't. That's normal D1 play.

[WerewolfHunter]

Three town (IAAFR tutuu radishes) down, too many more to go

just gonna note randomly that this pinged me as potentially scum with radishes (because i dont think radishes has been nearly as towny as me and tutuu and this kind of early declaration of 3 townreads comes from scum a decent amount) but this is like

an extremely weak read

posting it anyway because why not

ok you are now a town read

26/60
sorry my catchup is slightly backwards because this caught my attention.

I feel that Hally and I have the same read on Iaafr which I feel means that Hally is more likely town

Why would sharing a read with Hally (especially "iaafr is town") make you feel this way?

39/60

I'm not sure what the most succint way to say this is. I had thought Hally was town since last night for a reference point. However, sometimes having similar reads means its more likely individuals would connect on things like reads. Also, not sure if this is the best phrasing but these reads help us like understand. In the end, it didn't change it just more confirmed my perspective

[Benson]

Some vexing occurrences

Three town (IAAFR tutuu radishes) down, too many more to go

just gonna note randomly that this pinged me as potentially scum with radishes (because i dont think radishes has been nearly as towny as me and tutuu and this kind of early declaration of 3 townreads comes from scum a decent amount) but this is like

an extremely weak read

posting it anyway because why not

ok you are now a town read

26/60
sorry my catchup is slightly backwards because this caught my attention.

I feel that Hally and I have the same read on Iaafr which I feel means that Hally is more likely town

OK. But how? Why is wolf!Hally less likely to town read iaafr? Why is that something to read into right now?

top town
iaafr
Hally
Tim
town leans
Colonial
Nutella
evil leans
Tutuu
Nanook
Benson


Boy, I still have a lot lot of null ones despite it getting closer to eod

coliniscool

dyslexicon
master radishes
nanook(thegreatandfearsome)
protocultures
alison
amy
kza
long con

Tutuu and I as evil...is interesting. I'm not going to say it's wolfy for going so hard against the grain but I'd want to know the rationale behind this.

30/60

[VOTE: Benson] aubergine

I will probably consolodate later today on someone who has more votes.

Also, assuming the poll is the official

I don't understand this (the vote and telling me that you'll be switching) but I think it's town.

[colonialbob]

I found the fact that Nanook only made an actual, game-related post after he started getting pressure suspicious. I don't think anybody else made that observation, iirc, but sure I was just sheeping I guess.

[WerewolfHunter]

Some vexing occurrences

Three town (IAAFR tutuu radishes) down, too many more to go

just gonna note randomly that this pinged me as potentially scum with radishes (because i dont think radishes has been nearly as towny as me and tutuu and this kind of early declaration of 3 townreads comes from scum a decent amount) but this is like

an extremely weak read

posting it anyway because why not

ok you are now a town read

26/60
sorry my catchup is slightly backwards because this caught my attention.

I feel that Hally and I have the same read on Iaafr which I feel means that Hally is more likely town

OK. But how? Why is wolf!Hally less likely to town read iaafr? Why is that something to read into right now?

top town
iaafr
Hally
Tim
town leans
Colonial
Nutella
evil leans
Tutuu
Nanook
Benson


Boy, I still have a lot lot of null ones despite it getting closer to eod

coliniscool

dyslexicon
master radishes
nanook(thegreatandfearsome)
protocultures
alison
amy
kza
long con

Tutuu and I as evil...is interesting. I'm not going to say it's wolfy for going so hard against the grain but I'd want to know the rationale behind this.

30/60

[VOTE: Benson] aubergine

I will probably consolodate later today on someone who has more votes.

Also, assuming the poll is the official

I don't understand this (the vote and telling me that you'll be switching) but I think it's town.

40/60
That post alone doesn't make here more likely Town but it's confirmed with the other posts. I've told myself I need to stop second guessing myself and go forward with the reads I have

[Benson]

Well like I said it's not a "never ever rescind" townclear, it's "I'm never voting for these people today and probably not in the near future"
I really don't think Hally's progression was faked though. Tim maybe the slightly weaker clear for that.

I went back and forth on Scirrus a bit. I didn't like his RP entrance, but I started liking his catchup posts and felt he was responding to various things with a genuine mindset, and then I made the comparison to the lion king game and went back to feeling less good about him.

Interestingly, Dizzy had a scumread of scirrus, but hasn't acknowledged hally since the sub. I find myself kind of trapped in a loop where I've decided I'm trusting hally, so I have to trust their godread on dizzy, but if dizzy still scumreads hally I have to listen to that as well and worry if hally was just trying to pocket dizzy....

Well fair. I do realize we use that term differently, probably leading to some confusion about your intent on my part.

I still feel like I'm completely missing what you're seeing when you look at Hally. Like, how that progression was so good it skyrocketed them from the bottom to the top of the town rankings. I'm not calling you scum for this (I actually think the opposite upon reflection), but I want to figure this out. It seems clearly established that Hally is a great player, with what I assume is a great scum game, so I think it's dangerous to be giving easy passes to someone like that. Maybe I'll try to re-read Hally's ISO again later today, because I think figuring that slot out is crucial right now (that's why I'm pressing this point so much with you).

hey you just blew the gig with that post, not me, you coulda doubled down or ignored it

It was more fun to poke at you. Plus I doubt the gig is actually blown, because I think people will still look at the wagon they are on and the ones that don't have a good reason for where they are will move. And some wolves might feel forced to make moves if a lot of other people move. (hint, villagers, get with program)

@Benson I think you worry too much about "reckless town clears." I think there are maybe three or four people in this game that I worry about actually locking themselves in. Everyone else can say "clear" as much as they want and I am pretty comfortable that they will be reassessing overnight if they aren't already. If someone says "yeah, Benson seems towny, don't kill him today" I'm fine with not killing you today. If they wanna express it as "Benson clear," I can deal with the shorthand.

We have a handful of people that basically NO ONE is speaking up for, and I have little doubt that we will kill one of them. We MIGHT kill a wolf, but yeah that leaves (assumed) three more and some of them are gonna be lurking among the people that someone said "not today" over. Look at Radishes. I'm accepting a "not today" call from you there. I don't think that either of us would bet the house that he isn't a wolf. We're just giving him more time to prove he isn't if he isn't. That's normal D1 play.

I think it's just a difference in how we use the term. I thought nut's townclear was a townclear townclear. But it's a re-evaluate-soon townclear, which makes a difference.
I do understand the approach to "clear" players from D1 or early contention, and I'm okay with that.

To clarify my stance on radish, it's a "maybe today" tbh. I don't want to just go for someone that no one is sad about losing because that's much much more likely to result in a miselim.

[Alison]

I heavily vibed with the bolded take on Alison's treatment of Hally's slot. It should be a good thing that Hally came in and towned it up to pull their slot up out of a tight spot. Alison looks like she doesn't want this to happen.

Except they didn't town it up. I'm still scumreading them, so is Benson, and I have seen nothing in their behavior that makes me want to wash away everything Scirrus did.

[Dyslexicon]

lol hi

thoughts on hally please

No. I haven't finished D0 and I'm already bored. Think I'm just going to sleep.

But I think Tim is mafia. I'm so good at this game. The gut reads are unreal. And if you want words is probably that he was present but not doing anything at the beginning of the game. "I'm so natural, I'm here guys heheheh" but just waiting to see how the game develops. Such scum wow.

You're also probably scum, Nut. Don't you agree? "Amagad, I need a read on Hally. I need to ask about that again, even though I already asked you and know you haven't read the game. Give it to me, the read on Hally that I definitely need, so I'm going to ask about that instead of addressing your questions." Such scum.

Scirrus could be scum, but if he is, don't yeet him yet. I want to see him sweat. It's hawt.

[VOTE: Nutella] aubergine

[Dyslexicon]

I heavily vibed with the bolded take on Alison's treatment of Hally's slot. It should be a good thing that Hally came in and towned it up to pull their slot up out of a tight spot. Alison looks like she doesn't want this to happen.

Except they didn't town it up. I'm still scumreading them, so is Benson, and I have seen nothing in their behavior that makes me want to wash away everything Scirrus did.

Hally "towning up" a scummy slot? Lock scum imo =p

Also, Tutu and Proto town. And Alison may also be town, but know knows you know you know?

Still based on before D0 ended lol

[Dyslexicon]

the mafia team is colonialbob + hally + kza + nutella btw

I'll sheep this, vote Nutella. Tutu GOAT

[Amy]

i'll probably be around eod-ish and not before

my internet went out last night which thwarted my plans to meaningfully participate in this d1

c'est la vie

18/60

[Dyslexicon]

I'm a bit sad I can't play this game for real for real, cause it looks fun. Lots of fun people. But I'm not fun. I'm tired and old.

Good night. I might read the game before D4 of which I will definitely be alive for.

[Benson]

Response to Hally

Spoiler: show

I read through what I missed. Ask me for further commentary if you desire, but I’m going to spend my day doing life admin I’ve been putting off and then playing with my new headphones until my eardrums burst.

My reads generally remain the same. I’m ready to call iaafr town. I think my reservations mainly revolve around post limitations. When I’ve read some of his more recent posts more closely I nod along to them. On the other end, Tim is trending down. The LC townread has a strength that confuses me. And his handling of me feels opportunistic. Like, he began the game just shooting the breeze with me, then as soon as a few others voiced suspicion of me he acted like he’d been uncertain of me all along as well, even voting alongside me but making a deal out of not trusting me either.

I’m keeping my vote on Hally for now. She’s amazing at keeping a pure tone even as a wolf and I see nothing I would consider good enough yet to put her out of that range. The slot was scummy before and it could easily have been a case of RWSTFO. Her scumreads also feel cleverly opportunistic, like three people who have all faced some heat but not too much. I’m probably in confbias territory, but if she’s town I think I’ll get there eventually and I’m not there yet.

im not sure what you’re talking about re: cleverly opportunistic. i disagree with that characterization. i didn’t know what anyone’s reads on you or anyone else were when i began reading and stated my reads as they developed

i thought nut was wolfy at first, later on she became townier. i thought nanook was underwhelming but i wanna let him be and am not interested in yeeting there. i don’t find amy wolfy despite her being my counterwagon. i find colonialbob kinda wolfy even though i think i’m the only one who does so far. i find you wolfy and apparently am not alone in that atm, but i didn’t know that before i read

i’m really not sure how any of this qualifies as “cleverly opportunistic.” it’s not

Read through Hally's posts from last night. I have many thoughts but not enough time to respond to anything specifically. Unfortunately, the bias from Scirrus' game may be completely warping how I view Hally but oh well.

For starters, I think we agree (or they agree with me) on many things so far. I suppose I see some of the same progressions but it's not like that can't be faked when one is doing a retroactive read like that. If anything, I get paranoid that Hally is towncoring me (and others) and latching on to the things I say because I'm wrong - like my SR on MR for example.

i do think your read is warped by sc. normally one might take my agreement with you as a sign that we share a town perspective but instead you wave it away as me trying to pocket you because you’re wrong. i mean like... i can’t disprove that accusation? other than to say that i’m pretty sure i was sus of radishes before i read that you were. also i’m towncoring you because i find you to be obvious town so far. you can assume it’s an agenda if you want—again, this isn’t something i can disprove—but fmpov that isn’t a justified assumption. it tells me you’ve already written my slot off and are now fitting everything i do into “hally is a wolf because sc was a wolf” instead of evaluating me on my own merits and with a fresh perspective

i understand this though, it is what it is. it’s just the nature of replacing in to a consensus scum read slot

Another thing is that it seems like Hally came into this with pre-established reads and an agenda to push. I was hoping there would be more freshness to the reads, since they came in with a blank slate and reading after-the-fact can be very different from following the game in real-time. At least the progression on nute developed well and similar to how I felt. The Nanook read is fine, but that's an easy push for the wolves if he's town right now.
Amy got a quick town read and wasn't talked about much, which makes me think that's a potential w/w.

i mean, again i can’t prove to you that i don’t have an agenda or “pre established reads” but i don’t think thats a justified assumption to make. you can clearly see my reads progressing as i read so im not sure how you can conclude they’re pre-established

re: nanook i’m not interested in pushing him anymore this day. this happens like every game we play where we’re both town. i always find him wolfy at first and then we find each other later. i think his reaction to me is fine and what i would expect of him if we’re both town again. so i’m satisfied for now and that’s all

re: amy i didn’t really understand the case on her tbh. i don’t have the context of her meta but i didn’t think she was wolfy when rabbit cases her. she was still null to me. and then i found her meaty posts after that pretty towny. so now she’s been moved up to a town lean. there isn’t really much else to talk about until i see more from her

In short, I don't think Hally's play is damning or anything, but it's not enough to raise the slot from the hole that Scirrus put it into. At least not yet. I do like the dynamic between Hally and Radishes. That's probably not w/w but I think those are good wagons to talk about today. Imo, there's a good shot of getting a wolf between them.

this is largely irrelevant and probably unproductive but really, what could i do, theoretically speaking, to get out of the “hole sc put me in”? i subbed in, immediately started solving and engaging with the game, have reads and progressions that you yourself share, have like 50 posts already, etc. i think i’m plenty towny but this is of course my own biased view. still, i would appreciate being evaluated on my own merits if at all possible

Last post before I really have to go.

What is this and why is no one talking about it???

Nutella on Sciruss/Hally is fucking WEIRD

Actually, I realize nutella has (and just did) follow up her Amy reads, so you can disregard that point in my previous post. I guess if anything, nute, I want to know what was your *initial* read on Amy when you voted? What specifically about her subsequent posts made you think town?

I never voted lol why do people keep saying that my vote for dizzy just now was my first vote!

but yes when I initially agreed with rabbit's case on amy, I thought that it made sense amy looked most generally wolfy out of the people who had participated much at that point. as she's posted more and especially with her longer posts about the tim stuff and about iaafr I think she's much more in her town meta. and I particularly mindmelded with her iaafr read.



other stuff from the remainder of page 10
-wwh seems pretty towny now, sort of a vague tone thing but the way she's trying to put in some independent work and the way she expressed her take on each tutuu quote, generally feels like her perspective is genuine.
-radish's case on scirrus made me feel worse about radish and better about scirrus.

This was one of the few things Nutella mentioned about Scirrus while he was a focal point yesterday. Basically dismissing the case to SR Radishes. I don't get that. I think the case was objectively fine unless you have some TMI or anterior reasons for thinking otherwise.


After this, and aside from a small post or two, it was radio silence on the Scirrus front until Hally got here.

[VOTE: master radishes] aubergine


would feel bad misyeeting him d1 yet again but.... he feels so different and calculated here


and dizzy is not even remotely off the hook

Nutella is now firmly in the Hally camp in the campaign to chop radishes. This isn't strange but I'm just making a note of it.

alright heres basically where im at now

lock town
hally
tim
tutuu

town with reservations, roughly ordered
benson
amy
lc
proto
dizzy (trusting hally lol)
wwh
nanook
iaafr

shh don't tell her but trending down
alison

meh/lean scum
colin
cbob
kza
radish

Hally is lock town.

What

WHAT

Some of the placements on the list are just bewildering. I want to call it villagery to not just be sheeping the consensus, but if we really were on the right track with some of our scum reads then maybe she's forced into the position to try to push a completely different consensus than most of the other players have established. Idk, but this is super interesting.

What I'm saying is I really want to think this is a w/w duo. That might be far too easy though. But this is what I want people to look at closely today: MR vs Hally & Nute. We have something spicy there.

shrug

if nut is a wolf it’s possible she’s trying to pocket me because she knows i’m easily susceptible to that. but we’ve towned together a few times already and tend to share similar perspectives when we do so it’s not out of the realm of possibility to me that she’s found me as town as quickly as she has. i’m not that difficult to read

also i’m pretty sure if we were teamed nut wouldn’t lock me as town so quickly with my slot in the position it’s in and her not being that townread but ymmv

Reading the last few pages led me to ISO Nanook and all I see is some early "reads" followed by a bunch of nothing until he started getting pressure, at which point there was finally another piece of game-relevant info. So [VOTE: nanook] aubergine

this seems like a pretty opportunistic vote and push. i’m really not finding you towny so far

Hally you've called a couple of things "not W/W" and:

1) Like you've pointed out it's a little too early in the game to be doing associatives like that.

2) I don't actually understand why they aren't W/W. Like it isn't obvious to me why the interactions you point out aren't within the scum range of the players involved to fake.

Can you please elaborate a bit more on those thoughts?

linki: Yes, that dynamic you're alluding to between MR, nanook and nutella. What is it about it that makes you think they can't be associated together? I don't get the sense that the scum ranges of any of those three players are particularly narrow, so it has to be something specific and strong that makes you think this.

double linki: Also what is with you being so quick to do associative stuff?

idk sometimes i do associatives it’s not really new for me

so like, i think radish/nanook are possible w/w because nanook kinda sandwiched radishes into his tr’s early even though i don’t think radishes really belongs there. wolves tend to like to lump teammates in with villagers

nanook/nut not aligned because i dont see any reason why nut would push on nanook here as w/w. could she? like yea it’s not out of her wolf range but like... why would she when nanook is not under threat

radishes/nut not aligned because i don’t think w!radishes would defend w!nut like that when she was getting wagoned. it had an air of tmi to it, like he knew nut was a villager and wanted to keep his hands clean of anything having to do with the push/maybe even pocket nut

that’s the associatives i have in that group of three. obviously not set in stone but yea

These associatives require a lot of assumptions and I'm mostly inclined to think you made them up honestly. Like you have a set of assumptions about how mafia would play, like never bus D1, and I'm left with more questions than answers. Why is someone who townreads someone who doesn't deserve it wolves with them, and not wolf whiteknighting/TMI-ing a town, or just town with a weird read? Why can't wolves use D1 to distance knowing full well that their interactions will be referred to later down the road?

It's not even necessarily a question of "Hally is wrong", it's like you're concocting a narrative of the spot and trying to push it on us in lieu of doing actual investigative work, which is why I was kinda skeeved out by your random associative analysis that didn't seem to lead anywhere and felt extremely premature.

nutella: Just when you're trending up on my radar, I'm trending down on yours. :P

i’m not married to any of this analysis since we don’t even have flips yet but i believe the assumptions i’m making are more often true than not. i don’t hard align nanook/radishes but i think it’s possible. i would say i’m much more confident in nut/radishes and nut/nanook not being aligned then radishes/nanook being aligned

like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ idk what to tell you. sometimes i have thoughts based on assumptions that may not be correct or fully formed. it’s the nature of making reads in a game in which i know nothing

i’m honestly not sure why you have a problem with this. i think you’re just calling it fake because you’re either already tunneled on sc being a wolf and don’t wanna give me a chance or a wolf who doesn’t wanna let this mislim slip away because you can see i’m already working my way out of the hole

it’s fine though, we tend to have different approaches and ways of thinking about interactions so it could just be that

I heavily vibed with the bolded take on Alison's treatment of Hally's slot. It should be a good thing that Hally came in and towned it up to pull their slot up out of a tight spot. Alison looks like she doesn't want this to happen.

eh. it’s hard because confirmation bias is a real thing. i honestly don’t know how to separate townies who are confbiasing my play into being wolfy because omg sc was evil and wolves who are pretending to confbias because they’d really like to be able to get me mislimed here. subbing into a widely scum read slot means that i’m necessarily gonna have to contend with the baggage sc accumulated and it’s going to affect how people read me even if they’re approaching me in good faith. benson, for example, i think is town who is just confbiasing. radishes could be a wolf trying to hold on to the push because i don’t feel he actually gave my play a fair shake at all. with benson i can see the gears turning as he tries to evaluate me even though he comes to a conclusion that’s incorrect. i don’t feel radishes has actually evaluated me in the same way so far. alison i’m torn on because we have such different ways of thinking that i can buy she genuinely doesnt like my play, but i also think she would exploit that as a wolf

idk it’s hard to evaluate tbh

Your rebuttals are fair. I think you took my accusations to close to heart because it certainly is a confbias argument; I know that. I wanted to find the reasons your slot was still scum, mainly because others started townreading you for it and I don't like to let players slide by so easily. It's not that I look at your progression and think it's wolfy in a vacuum. I look at it and see something completely possible from a strong wolf that knows how to fake a good progression and put themselves into a good position.
If you are town then this is a really unfortunate position to be in and you're doing admirably.

After writing it down, the idea of you and nut being w/w made less and less sense. It's definitely not a likely association at this point.
If I think you do have a w/w association it might be with Amy; because I still don't know how you look at Amy and think town right now (I don't expect you to address this again).

[iaafr]

im willing to sheep tutuus scumlist and votes until something gamechanging happens

like objectively gamechanging, not just "rabbit adhd" gamechanging

[Alison]

For some reason this game just make lose all motivation to play so I'm going to abandon the usual theatrics and quotes and just give it to you as simple as I can.

Scirrus was scummy. Hally replaced Scirrus. Hally was anemic at best and had really disagreeable thought processes at worst. I see no reason to shift that slot away from the D1 execute. I don't like how people were quick to give Hally a D1 pass because I don't think they have earned it. I actively suspect Hally and I am willing to push that slot past the finish line and take responsibility if it flips green ([mention]Timsup2nothin[/mention]). You can give me hell for it Day 2 if I am wrong.

[mention]Benson[/mention], please join me on this push. [mention]Dyslexicon[/mention], I am not sure how serious you are with the Hally lock scum comment, but if you really do think Hally is scum after your catchup, I encourage you to join me. [mention]tutuu[/mention], please sheep my read this once.

[WerewolfHunter]

41

For me when someone new comes in to play, i try to reeevalue it as a whole and not focus on past reads

[Dyslexicon]

@Dyslexicon, I am not sure how serious you are with the Hally lock scum comment, but if you really do think Hally is scum after your catchup, I encourage you to join me. @tutuu, please sheep my read this once.

Not very serious. Towning up a scummy slot was just what they did in their champs qualifier though, and they could do that easily as scum and town alike. I won't be reading more of this game before D2 tbh. Sorry about that, it's just not going to happen in my life right now.

[Alison]

41

For me when someone new comes in to play, i try to reeevalue it as a whole and not focus on past reads

Their slot's alignment doesn't change just because they subbed out. And frankly, if Hally had been here from the start, I would still have them in my POE.

[iaafr]

im probably in the most compromised position when evaluating hally because hally claimed mindmelds with me so im in like the "pocketed position" and i was one of the only ones townreading scirrus too which couldve been wrong so

ya no reason to veto

probably wont vote it unless tutuu does tho