X-Men [ENDGAME]

[Ned Flanders]

I had you down for a certain player, Longshot. Based on that last post, I think I am wrong.

I really don't think anyone is trying to insult anybody here.

I just disagree with the case put forth on Havok. Just like the other day, I will not vote to lynch him.

[Rachel Green]

I had you down for a certain player, Longshot. Based on that last post, I think I am wrong.

I really don't think anyone is trying to insult anybody here.

I just disagree with the case put forth on Havok. Just like the other day, I will not vote to lynch him.

Ok thats fair. Is there anything specifically in my thoughts that you don't agree with? I'll be happy to look back at something that you disagree with to see if I've misunderstood.

[Paul Stevens]

I feel like a lot of us are grasping at next to nothing here, and we're all suspicious of each other (except the baddies, of course - they know who they are and are playing off our paranoia ). That being said, I do not have a good idea of who to lynch today. Unfortunately, that means I also don't have a lot of good theories as to who is bad, except that someone who voted for Sunfire is bad. And seeing as I am guilty of having voted for Sunfire, that doesn't give me a lot to go on. My gut was telling me WQ was bad, but now I'm not so sure since her response to the redirected night kills. It looks like I may just have to pick a side and hope for the best, as we are divided again.

I'll be back later (probably via phone) for the vote. Until then, I'll think more on this and read what others have to say (perhaps I'm not reading into the arguments enough?).

If you're gonna get on us for grasping, I wish you would bring a better plan of action to the table.

Haha, I suppose I should've mentioned that I'm guilty of it as well! My apologies for coming off as self-righteous or something as awful as that y'all are at least doing a better job of publicly speculating than I am at this point. I will offer better thoughts as they come.

[Celeste]

I would encourage others to read Longshot's case on Havok. I think it's very informative.

I think the points that stuck out the most to me were #2 (because it was something I didn't notice or think about at the time), #3 (a case where he's ignored/dismissed several other posts in the thread), #5 (Did you ever build a case on Rasputin? Because if you did, I would like to see it again. I don't remember it.), #6 (sounds like a baddie ploy to me by asking us all to lynch him), and #9 (saying and re-stating the same opinion, even when the person in question admits that they aren't true).

I think #1 is insignificant by itself because of it being a Day 1 event, but in the given context, I could see a baddie being more likely to jump on somebody for a small detail. #4 I can't argue with because I had thought at the time that Professor X was saying he wanted Sunfire lynched. Now I think he meant something else entirely. With #7, I never asked Epig if I was allowed to share anything or not. I know the rules clearly state you may never quote verbatim from a PM, and that was something I tried to avoid doing directly with my case. And #8 is basically a laundry list of people who I mostly believe to be civ.

I was unsure about voting for someone that Magneto had protected, but at this point, I think it's more a case of me voting for the person I feel better about (Havok) over the person who I think is a safer option and less likely to be manipulated (White Queen). So Havok it is.

[Gunther]

Today I went back and looked over Havoc's posts, deciding whether I was going to vote for him or not. I have since decided I am voting for him and for the sake of being clear I'm going to go over what I found that convinced me he is bad.

There is no one big thing that leads me conclusively to Havoks guilt but there are a lot of smaller things that added up. Some of the highlights are:

1. Back at the beginning Havok called out Scarlet Witch because of her use of the word "his" when referring to Polaris. Havok noted since Polaris had a big boobed avatar SW should have known to call Polaris "her". This caught several people's eye because "he" "his" is often used generically when referring to another whose gender you don't know. I don't believe SW even noticed the avatar. This just seemed like an attempt to jump on someone for nothing.

First case of twisting events. It's no wonder you didn't include quotes in this post. If you had quoted, it would show that I said that at the time (early in the game) it was the only thing that I had noticed. I even said that people used masculine pronouns all the time when the gender is unknown and that it could be nothing. I didn't exactly push this.

2. Next you may recall Havok asked the question whether the first lynch was a tie, potentially exposing one of the civ roles. There was a lot of discussion about this at the time and people pointed out how if civ, Havok would have gone over all the possible consequences of that question being asked. Even Havok had to finally agree that asking the question had been risky. I think he probably did not expect to be called out as he was on this issue.

Yes, I asked a question about a tie. It was something that I probably should not have done. I misread what was going on in at the time. I thought at the time that a tie would mean that Cyclops and/or Wolverine could not have been involved. I was wrong.

3. In the quicksilver lynch Havok voted right after another player brought up the idea that all the quicksilver votes were too convenient. He didn't even acknowledge the comment in the thread about the convenience and voted Quicksilver anyway. During the discussion on this point he admitted he voted without taking a few peoples comments into consideration. Vision pointed out that on day 1 Havok used the excuse that there were heavy manips in the game to help justify why he asked the question about the tie, so if he was so paranoid then about the heavy manipulations why would he ignore the concern with respect to the lynch since they were talking about manipulations in that concern.

I haven't understood and I still don't understand how this is something that is suspicious. How is someone saying "all these votes on QS is too convenient" make it so? Someone verbalizing what is clear by simply looking at the poll doesn't make it wrong. When I came in to vote, I did so because I was leaving for a few hours and didn't know if I would be back before the poll closed. What should I have done? Not voted?

4. A smaller thing that pinged me was at one point Havok made the comment that it was obvious Professor X meant Sunfire in his post, as in Sunfire should be lynched. In reality, I never saw anything that led me to believe Prof X wanted Sunfire to be lynched. I thought this was odd at the time but certainly as one individual thing it did not make me want to lynch him.

Here is another example you twisting things around. I was responding to someone that thought Professor X was referring to someone else (Phoenix I believe it was). I said it was obvious that Professor X was talking about Sunfire because of his use of the word Sun. I was disagreeing that he could be talking about Phoenix and if he was advocating for a lynch on anyone it was Sunfire.

5. Then Havok called Rasputin a "baddie bully" for saying, "If you like, I can build my case on you like i was planning. I already feel I have plenty to go on, personally, but I'm happy to convince others as well." I don't in any way see that comment as "bullying". Bullying imo would have to include language and actions that were intimidating, among other things. This comment by Rasputin did not rise to that level but Havok decided to use the inflammatory word "bully" to make it seem worse than it really was.

You can argue all you want on whether or not "bully" was the right word to use, but what you cannot argue is that Rasputin was threatening me. I will say it again. Why would a civvie threaten to build a case on someone? If a civvie had a case to build and also thought that he could convince other people to go along with it, that would mean that he was very confident that I was bad and should be lynched. Why would that civvie make a threat like that? Why not just build the case and lynch me? You really think that's civvie behavior? I do not. His post made it obvious that he was not eager and/or willing to make that case. It was a threat to me to simmer down or else. You don't see that?

6. Havok also told us at one point to lynch him if we needed to to prove Shadowcat and Domino were bad. Calling for people to lynch them is a baddie play - Havok knew people would say just waht we did say - no Havok, that would prove nothing about the baddieness of Domino or SC. Thus, it was something he could throw out there safely, thinking he would convince us of his civvieness, knowing that we really wouldn't follow up.

You are right. Me being lynched would not prove that Shadowcat or Domino was bad. Lynching me would only prove that I am a civvie and that my intentions are good. It would prove that I am not trying to lead the game into any bad direction. It was an appeal of frustration because it felt like I was getting nothing but No U's from a few people. White Queen made a recent point about how anyone that bucks against Mikhail Rasputin is then immediately viewed as suspicious by him. That is so true.

7. One of the things Havok keeps saying in regards to his Shadowcat/Domino suspicions is the host would never allow one, much less two info-drops without repercussions. In reality, we don't know if the host allowed that or not. The host is not going to punish info droppers in a way that we can see the punishment, thereby causing us to say -"look, they really were info droppers". As for the host allowing it in the first place, how the heck is he going to stop it before its said? It's not like we all check in with him and say "is this ok to say". Thus, i think this point about not allowing info dropping without repercussions to be not valid.

You are really overplaying this. I haven't kept saying this over and over. I said it once or twice, and it wasn't as any means of trying to prove that the info dumps were false. It was a side note.

8. Havok saw the likely brotherhood as Domino, Shadowcat, Banshee, Rasputin, and Sunfire. Since that point in time (which was not long ago) both Domino and Sunfire have been shown to be civ, and it is my personal opinion that Rasputin and Banshee are also civ (I'm a little less sure of Banshee because he hasn't posted as much as Rasputin). Based on my thoughts about those players I see Havok as posting a list of civs here instead of baddies.

Domino has not been proven civvie. And of that list, I said was less sure of Sunfire. A few people seem to just assume that Domino was legitimate and it doesn't make sense. You assume Domino really was Gambit because of her info drop/role claim of Gambit? Why don't you admit that it's possible she was Mystique? Because it hurts your theory that's why. Why would Exodus choose to appear as Gambit in the first place? Wouldn't it be a lot smarter to appear as someone that's already been lynched like Forge or Bishop? It seems a very unecessary risk to appear as a role that is likely still alive. It's also convenient that Domino was right there 10 minutes after the lynch to make that role claim.

9. Finally, Havok's evaluation of Rasputin's votes. Rasputin covered this just a little while ago but I still want to say that Havok tries to make the point that Rasputin's hands are clean - too clean - for him to be a civ. In reality, Rasputin's votes are not all clean, there are two he voted for that were civ. I don't really understand why Havok is trying to make this point when you can look at Rasputin's votes and see his analysis is not true.

His hands are clean. He led the lynch train on QS before backing away from it at the end....making it possible for him to say, "I tried to warn you guys." after the fact. Also....Who are the 2 lynched civvies that Rasputin voted for? I count one POSSIBLE lynched civvie that he voted for. That being Domino. Again another instance of someone trying to pass off something as fact when it is not. Either Domino or Exodus was Mystique. Why not admit that possibility?

So these are the things i saw in my look-back at Havok and it is the collection of these things that lead me to vote for him today.

*vote Havok*

[Celeste]

Havok, when you're done catching up, do you have an answer for my question?

[Gunther]

What was your question again? I saw it, but I can't remember exactly what it was.

[Jack Shephard]

I feel like a lot of us are grasping at next to nothing here, and we're all suspicious of each other (except the baddies, of course - they know who they are and are playing off our paranoia ). That being said, I do not have a good idea of who to lynch today. Unfortunately, that means I also don't have a lot of good theories as to who is bad, except that someone who voted for Sunfire is bad. And seeing as I am guilty of having voted for Sunfire, that doesn't give me a lot to go on. My gut was telling me WQ was bad, but now I'm not so sure since her response to the redirected night kills. It looks like I may just have to pick a side and hope for the best, as we are divided again.

I'll be back later (probably via phone) for the vote. Until then, I'll think more on this and read what others have to say (perhaps I'm not reading into the arguments enough?).

If you're gonna get on us for grasping, I wish you would bring a better plan of action to the table.

Haha, I suppose I should've mentioned that I'm guilty of it as well! My apologies for coming off as self-righteous or something as awful as that y'all are at least doing a better job of publicly speculating than I am at this point. I will offer better thoughts as they come.

I almost said something nastier, but decided that would be stupid and a bit counterproductive. I'm glad I reconsidered my post. Anyway, glad we have an accord now.

[Snapshot]

For example, we have the best pilot. Airline Tickets

[Celeste]

What was your question again? I saw it, but I can't remember exactly what it was.

For some reason, I can't find the exact quote again, so either I mis-remember typing it out or I didn't go back far enough. But I was wondering if, given the events of last night, you are still just as suspicious of me or if your opinion has swung one way or the other? I ask because you mentioned that you thought a certain role was dead, and thought that it correlated to my potential baddiness. And given what happened last night, I think it pretty definitively shows that said role is still alive.

Linki

[Snapshot]

*Source*

[Celeste]

For example, we have the best pilot. Airline Tickets

I'll be honest. I really wish we could understand what you are saying. Because I'm terrible with trying to decipher insanified posts.

[Jack Shephard]

I would encourage others to read Longshot's case on Havok. I think it's very informative.

I think the points that stuck out the most to me were #2 (because it was something I didn't notice or think about at the time), #3 (a case where he's ignored/dismissed several other posts in the thread), #5 (Did you ever build a case on Rasputin? Because if you did, I would like to see it again. I don't remember it.), #6 (sounds like a baddie ploy to me by asking us all to lynch him), and #9 (saying and re-stating the same opinion, even when the person in question admits that they aren't true).

I think #1 is insignificant by itself because of it being a Day 1 event, but in the given context, I could see a baddie being more likely to jump on somebody for a small detail. #4 I can't argue with because I had thought at the time that Professor X was saying he wanted Sunfire lynched. Now I think he meant something else entirely. With #7, I never asked Epig if I was allowed to share anything or not. I know the rules clearly state you may never quote verbatim from a PM, and that was something I tried to avoid doing directly with my case. And #8 is basically a laundry list of people who I mostly believe to be civ.

I was unsure about voting for someone that Magneto had protected, but at this point, I think it's more a case of me voting for the person I feel better about (Havok) over the person who I think is a safer option and less likely to be manipulated (White Queen). So Havok it is.

I did. It's kinda like your case on Exodus, except he didn't info-dump first. A lot of nit-picking (coincidentally, something he was also accused of), and enough to make him look bad, but not really prove he is bad. It also unfortunately does not include any good points he's made. But of course, baddie cases don't include such things.

I just have trouble supporting a case against him because I agree with his view on Mikhail. Between the two, I'd prefer a lynch of Mikhail. Voting Mikhail now.

[Jack Shephard]

I was unsure about voting for someone that Magneto had protected, but at this point, I think it's more a case of me voting for the person I feel better about (Havok) over the person who I think is a safer option and less likely to be manipulated (White Queen). So Havok it is.

You think White Queen is more likely to be manipulated? I thought Havok would be between the two. Havok got a surprisingly large number of votes at the end of the day yesterday, and seemed like today's primary lynch candidate.

[Ned Flanders]

I am going to vote for Rasputin as well.

Last time he was pushing Havok, me and a few other people kinda pushed back, and he dropped it. Did the, "Well, people I feel good about don't suspect Havok, so....".

Next thing you know, I am on his short list

Voting

[Ned Flanders]

Interesting. The Viz voted for Marrow

[Celeste]

I was unsure about voting for someone that Magneto had protected, but at this point, I think it's more a case of me voting for the person I feel better about (Havok) over the person who I think is a safer option and less likely to be manipulated (White Queen). So Havok it is.

You think White Queen is more likely to be manipulated? I thought Havok would be between the two. Havok got a surprisingly large number of votes at the end of the day yesterday, and seemed like today's primary lynch candidate.

No. I'm saying that I think Havok is more likely to be manipulated.

[Celeste]

Interesting. The Viz voted for Marrow

I just now noticed that. Either there's something he's saying in his insanified posts that we can't understand, or I'm wondering if Magneto's manipulation is playing into this in some way.

Has Viz ever mentioned any suspicion of Marrow before or not?

[Jack Shephard]

I was unsure about voting for someone that Magneto had protected, but at this point, I think it's more a case of me voting for the person I feel better about (Havok) over the person who I think is a safer option and less likely to be manipulated (White Queen). So Havok it is.

You think White Queen is more likely to be manipulated? I thought Havok would be between the two. Havok got a surprisingly large number of votes at the end of the day yesterday, and seemed like today's primary lynch candidate.

No. I'm saying that I think Havok is more likely to be manipulated.

Oh, gotcha, I misread.

[Jack Shephard]

Interesting. The Viz voted for Marrow

I just now noticed that. Either there's something he's saying in his insanified posts that we can't understand, or I'm wondering if Magneto's manipulation is playing into this in some way.

Has Viz ever mentioned any suspicion of Marrow before or not?

I just looked through his posts, and nothing on Marrow since Day 1. Maybe his vote's insanified too?

I also checked who posted today, and Sebastian Shaw and Marrow have not posted yet. I guess they've been silenced today.

[Young Lady]

Guys, this is what happens today:

On odd Nights, that person will receive the votes of two other selected targets the following Day.

Don't spread the vote.

I hope I can get back on time to catch up.

[Gunther]

What was your question again? I saw it, but I can't remember exactly what it was.

For some reason, I can't find the exact quote again, so either I mis-remember typing it out or I didn't go back far enough. But I was wondering if, given the events of last night, you are still just as suspicious of me or if your opinion has swung one way or the other? I ask because you mentioned that you thought a certain role was dead, and thought that it correlated to my potential baddiness. And given what happened last night, I think it pretty definitively shows that said role is still alive.

Linki

I did think that Archangel was dead, but with someone being off the poll today...I dunno. I'm not sure how being wrong about Archangel and therefore potentially being wrong about Dazzler would have any effect on my view of you? Maybe I'm forgetting something? I dunno. I'm still leaning baddie on you, but I'm less sure than I was yesterday only because the more i think about everything the more I realize that your Exodus/info case may not have been coming from a brotherhood member. It is possible that you just misinterpreted things. I still think Exodus was the real Gambit and that Domino was Mystique. I'm also still leaning brotherhood on you because of the things you've been posting recently.

[Gunther]

Guys, this is what happens today:

On odd Nights, that person will receive the votes of two other selected targets the following Day.

Don't spread the vote.

I hope I can get back on time to catch up.

Okay, so today the brotherhood will have picked two players they thought likely to receive votes today and move them to a 3rd party.

It's probably likely that they picked me and either Vision or White Queen...not sure who they would pick to have those votes moved to. I'd say it'll likely be someone that's not very involved in the game.....or someone that is agreeing with them about me/vision/white queen but not actually on their team.

I think it's in Rasputin's best interest to keep me around for as many lynches as possible. This should definitely be an interesting lynch.

I find it very interesting that Rasputin is actively downplaying Magneto's ability today.

[dodo]

Ack! I have been super busy. Just made it in to vote with White Queen. Survivors club!

[Celeste]

Ack! I have been super busy. Just made it in to vote with White Queen. Survivors club!

Thankfully we still have another hour though. Out of curiosity, what is your reasoning for voting her?

And yeah, in regards to what Hawkeye said, spreading the vote would be really bad today. Probably want to limit it to no more than 2 or 3 people with any votes at all today. Of course, that also counts on everyone who can vote showing up to vote today.

Hopefully we get some more votes in soon.

[2 Stupid Dogs]

Now what I didn't like about White Queen's reaction after Night 5 was her rush to state that she knew how she survived. Past experience says that a baddie who survives a night kill (because of their role) would say they have no idea how that happened and would thank an unknown protector for it. This to me seemed like that equivalent of what happened with WQ, except here we have no baddies who can survive night kills, and it was more than obvious from the brief post that we were dealing with a bunch of redirected night kills.

linki with Banshee - something like that too.

That's a really good point on White Queen.

Ack! I have been super busy. Just made it in to vote with White Queen. Survivors club!

Thankfully we still have another hour though. Out of curiosity, what is your reasoning for voting her?

And yeah, in regards to what Hawkeye said, spreading the vote would be really bad today. Probably want to limit it to no more than 2 or 3 people with any votes at all today. Of course, that also counts on everyone who can vote showing up to vote today.

Hopefully we get some more votes in soon.

He voted WITH her. Not for her.

I'll be voting for her, though.

*votes*

[Jack Shephard]

Well Marrow voted, she must not be silenced then.

[Ned Flanders]

Now what I didn't like about White Queen's reaction after Night 5 was her rush to state that she knew how she survived. Past experience says that a baddie who survives a night kill (because of their role) would say they have no idea how that happened and would thank an unknown protector for it. This to me seemed like that equivalent of what happened with WQ, except here we have no baddies who can survive night kills, and it was more than obvious from the brief post that we were dealing with a bunch of redirected night kills.

linki with Banshee - something like that too.

That's a really good point on White Queen.

Ack! I have been super busy. Just made it in to vote with White Queen. Survivors club!

Thankfully we still have another hour though. Out of curiosity, what is your reasoning for voting her?

And yeah, in regards to what Hawkeye said, spreading the vote would be really bad today. Probably want to limit it to no more than 2 or 3 people with any votes at all today. Of course, that also counts on everyone who can vote showing up to vote today.

Hopefully we get some more votes in soon.

He voted WITH her. Not for her.

I'll be voting for her, though.

*votes*

Did you also see my really good reply to that weak point?

And no worries, you have been wanting to vote for me since the very beginning, knock yourself out.

[Rachel Green]

Today I went back and looked over Havoc's posts, deciding whether I was going to vote for him or not. I have since decided I am voting for him and for the sake of being clear I'm going to go over what I found that convinced me he is bad.

There is no one big thing that leads me conclusively to Havoks guilt but there are a lot of smaller things that added up. Some of the highlights are:

1. Back at the beginning Havok called out Scarlet Witch because of her use of the word "his" when referring to Polaris. Havok noted since Polaris had a big boobed avatar SW should have known to call Polaris "her". This caught several people's eye because "he" "his" is often used generically when referring to another whose gender you don't know. I don't believe SW even noticed the avatar. This just seemed like an attempt to jump on someone for nothing.

First case of twisting events. It's no wonder you didn't include quotes in this post. If you had quoted, it would show that I said that at the time (early in the game) it was the only thing that I had noticed. I even said that people used masculine pronouns all the time when the gender is unknown and that it could be nothing. I didn't exactly push this.

First, I didn't use quotes at all in this post because it would have been totally unweildy. Secondly, my point was it seemed like an attempt to jump on something for nothing. For the record though, here is what you said:

"yeah, people use the male pronoun as default all the time. It just seemed weird in this case because the avatar of Polaris with her big boobs and all would make me use "her"."

" I said it was the only thing that I had noticed so far. I then said that people use male pronouns all the time when they don't know the gender. I mainly said it to see how SW would react. "

I see that last part as jumping on someone for nothing.

2. Next you may recall Havok asked the question whether the first lynch was a tie, potentially exposing one of the civ roles. There was a lot of discussion about this at the time and people pointed out how if civ, Havok would have gone over all the possible consequences of that question being asked. Even Havok had to finally agree that asking the question had been risky. I think he probably did not expect to be called out as he was on this issue.

Yes, I asked a question about a tie. It was something that I probably should not have done. I misread what was going on in at the time. I thought at the time that a tie would mean that Cyclops and/or Wolverine could not have been involved. I was wrong.

3. In the quicksilver lynch Havok voted right after another player brought up the idea that all the quicksilver votes were too convenient. He didn't even acknowledge the comment in the thread about the convenience and voted Quicksilver anyway. During the discussion on this point he admitted he voted without taking a few peoples comments into consideration. Vision pointed out that on day 1 Havok used the excuse that there were heavy manips in the game to help justify why he asked the question about the tie, so if he was so paranoid then about the heavy manipulations why would he ignore the concern with respect to the lynch since they were talking about manipulations in that concern.

I haven't understood and I still don't understand how this is something that is suspicious. How is someone saying "all these votes on QS is too convenient" make it so? Someone verbalizing what is clear by simply looking at the poll doesn't make it wrong. When I came in to vote, I did so because I was leaving for a few hours and didn't know if I would be back before the poll closed. What should I have done? Not voted?
I'm not saying you should not have voted but are you really saying you didn't have the time to spend two minutes saying "hey, what's going on here"? Maybe you didn't but I still see it as suspicious.

4. A smaller thing that pinged me was at one point Havok made the comment that it was obvious Professor X meant Sunfire in his post, as in Sunfire should be lynched. In reality, I never saw anything that led me to believe Prof X wanted Sunfire to be lynched. I thought this was odd at the time but certainly as one individual thing it did not make me want to lynch him.

Here is another example you twisting things around. I was responding to someone that thought Professor X was referring to someone else (Phoenix I believe it was). I said it was obvious that Professor X was talking about Sunfire because of his use of the word Sun. I was disagreeing that he could be talking about Phoenix and if he was advocating for a lynch on anyone it was Sunfire.
My interpretation of what you said included that you thought Prof X was telling people to vote Sunfire. Are you saying that you did not think Prof X was telling you to do that?

5. Then Havok called Rasputin a "baddie bully" for saying, "If you like, I can build my case on you like i was planning. I already feel I have plenty to go on, personally, but I'm happy to convince others as well." I don't in any way see that comment as "bullying". Bullying imo would have to include language and actions that were intimidating, among other things. This comment by Rasputin did not rise to that level but Havok decided to use the inflammatory word "bully" to make it seem worse than it really was.

You can argue all you want on whether or not "bully" was the right word to use, but what you cannot argue is that Rasputin was threatening me. I will say it again. Why would a civvie threaten to build a case on someone? If a civvie had a case to build and also thought that he could convince other people to go along with it, that would mean that he was very confident that I was bad and should be lynched. Why would that civvie make a threat like that? Why not just build the case and lynch me? You really think that's civvie behavior? I do not. His post made it obvious that he was not eager and/or willing to make that case. It was a threat to me to simmer down or else. You don't see that?
Here's what I see - Rasputin's answer to your "threat" post:
"You say repeatedly that my offer of building a case (since you were not satisfied with my original points) is a threat, and that I am a baddie bully. If you feel bullied outside of game context, I am sincerely sorry. Please let me know if that is the case, and I will be conscious to make my future posts less belligerent. It's probable that I am playing a bit cocky at the moment, which is unusual for me, because I seem to have some civ cred.

If your uncomfortability is purely within the game, I should say that I feel a bit vindicated by your lashing back at me in this post. And I have never changed my mind about making a case about you. It's the middle of finals week and I am very busy, and making a case right now seems to not be worth it. Given other things happening in the thread, I don't think it would get any attention today. I am, however, happy to take the time to make one if others would like to see it. That is all that I meant, and it certainly wasn't intended to scare you into anything, which is what threats are supposed to do."

6. Havok also told us at one point to lynch him if we needed to to prove Shadowcat and Domino were bad. Calling for people to lynch them is a baddie play - Havok knew people would say just waht we did say - no Havok, that would prove nothing about the baddieness of Domino or SC. Thus, it was something he could throw out there safely, thinking he would convince us of his civvieness, knowing that we really wouldn't follow up.

You are right. Me being lynched would not prove that Shadowcat or Domino was bad. Lynching me would only prove that I am a civvie and that my intentions are good. It would prove that I am not trying to lead the game into any bad direction. It was an appeal of frustration because it felt like I was getting nothing but No U's from a few people. White Queen made a recent point about how anyone that bucks against Mikhail Rasputin is then immediately viewed as suspicious by him. That is so true.
I hear what you are saying Havok but why on earth would a civ say this? I just don't see it as a civ thing to say.

7. One of the things Havok keeps saying in regards to his Shadowcat/Domino suspicions is the host would never allow one, much less two info-drops without repercussions. In reality, we don't know if the host allowed that or not. The host is not going to punish info droppers in a way that we can see the punishment, thereby causing us to say -"look, they really were info droppers". As for the host allowing it in the first place, how the heck is he going to stop it before its said? It's not like we all check in with him and say "is this ok to say". Thus, i think this point about not allowing info dropping without repercussions to be not valid.

You are really overplaying this. I haven't kept saying this over and over. I said it once or twice, and it wasn't as any means of trying to prove that the info dumps were false. It was a side note.

I didn't say you said it over and over. And what do you mean it was a side note? You specifically said the info dumping was fake info dumping. This is what you said: "I don't think it's infodumping. I think it's "fake" info dumping."

I have to leave off here for the night but I will reply to 8 and 9 tomorrow.

8. Havok saw the likely brotherhood as Domino, Shadowcat, Banshee, Rasputin, and Sunfire. Since that point in time (which was not long ago) both Domino and Sunfire have been shown to be civ, and it is my personal opinion that Rasputin and Banshee are also civ (I'm a little less sure of Banshee because he hasn't posted as much as Rasputin). Based on my thoughts about those players I see Havok as posting a list of civs here instead of baddies.

Domino has not been proven civvie. And of that list, I said was less sure of Sunfire. A few people seem to just assume that Domino was legitimate and it doesn't make sense. You assume Domino really was Gambit because of her info drop/role claim of Gambit? Why don't you admit that it's possible she was Mystique? Because it hurts your theory that's why. Why would Exodus choose to appear as Gambit in the first place? Wouldn't it be a lot smarter to appear as someone that's already been lynched like Forge or Bishop? It seems a very unecessary risk to appear as a role that is likely still alive. It's also convenient that Domino was right there 10 minutes after the lynch to make that role claim.

9. Finally, Havok's evaluation of Rasputin's votes. Rasputin covered this just a little while ago but I still want to say that Havok tries to make the point that Rasputin's hands are clean - too clean - for him to be a civ. In reality, Rasputin's votes are not all clean, there are two he voted for that were civ. I don't really understand why Havok is trying to make this point when you can look at Rasputin's votes and see his analysis is not true.

His hands are clean. He led the lynch train on QS before backing away from it at the end....making it possible for him to say, "I tried to warn you guys." after the fact. Also....Who are the 2 lynched civvies that Rasputin voted for? I count one POSSIBLE lynched civvie that he voted for. That being Domino. Again another instance of someone trying to pass off something as fact when it is not. Either Domino or Exodus was Mystique. Why not admit that possibility?


So these are the things i saw in my look-back at Havok and it is the collection of these things that lead me to vote for him today.

*vote Havok*

[Celeste]

What was your question again? I saw it, but I can't remember exactly what it was.

For some reason, I can't find the exact quote again, so either I mis-remember typing it out or I didn't go back far enough. But I was wondering if, given the events of last night, you are still just as suspicious of me or if your opinion has swung one way or the other? I ask because you mentioned that you thought a certain role was dead, and thought that it correlated to my potential baddiness. And given what happened last night, I think it pretty definitively shows that said role is still alive.

Linki

I did think that Archangel was dead, but with someone being off the poll today...I dunno. I'm not sure how being wrong about Archangel and therefore potentially being wrong about Dazzler would have any effect on my view of you? Maybe I'm forgetting something? I dunno. I'm still leaning baddie on you, but I'm less sure than I was yesterday only because the more i think about everything the more I realize that your Exodus/info case may not have been coming from a brotherhood member. It is possible that you just misinterpreted things. I still think Exodus was the real Gambit and that Domino was Mystique. I'm also still leaning brotherhood on you because of the things you've been posting recently.

I had read that back then and interpreted it as you thinking I was trying to role-claim Archangel, which is why I wondered if your opinion of me had changed any. Thanks for the response though!

[Nicol Bolas]

imma vote for rasputin i love ya raspy but you been soundin like a bad guy to me l8ly

[Gunther]

I said the lack of punishment thing was a sidenote....not the idea of fake info dumping.

Also, what would have been the point of me acknowledging someone else's comment about all the quicksilver votes? I still had to vote before I left.

And finally, you can try to rationalize what Rasputin said all you want. It was still a threat to make a case on me. That's what he did. He threatened to make a case on me and convince others to vote for me as well. Civvies don't threaten to make cases. They make cases.

[Celeste]

I have this uneasy gut feeling that this lynch isn't going to give us a clear-cut answer for some reason. I'm getting really paranoid all of a sudden. I guess I feel uncomfortable with Rasputin being discredited. Although if he gets lynched and ends up being bad, that's really going to change my perceptions of this game.

Linki: Did you ever make a case against Rasputin yourself or not? Because from what I remember, he at least put some degree of effort into his. I felt like you were just parroting that line because of what he was saying about you.

[2 Stupid Dogs]

Now what I didn't like about White Queen's reaction after Night 5 was her rush to state that she knew how she survived. Past experience says that a baddie who survives a night kill (because of their role) would say they have no idea how that happened and would thank an unknown protector for it. This to me seemed like that equivalent of what happened with WQ, except here we have no baddies who can survive night kills, and it was more than obvious from the brief post that we were dealing with a bunch of redirected night kills.

linki with Banshee - something like that too.

That's a really good point on White Queen.

Ack! I have been super busy. Just made it in to vote with White Queen. Survivors club!

Thankfully we still have another hour though. Out of curiosity, what is your reasoning for voting her?

And yeah, in regards to what Hawkeye said, spreading the vote would be really bad today. Probably want to limit it to no more than 2 or 3 people with any votes at all today. Of course, that also counts on everyone who can vote showing up to vote today.

Hopefully we get some more votes in soon.

He voted WITH her. Not for her.

I'll be voting for her, though.

*votes*

Did you also see my really good reply to that weak point?

And no worries, you have been wanting to vote for me since the very beginning, knock yourself out.

I saw your reply-- and that's fine, White Queen. I think you misinterpreted what he said.

This baddie team has NO automatic survivals. So, the first thing you said in the thread was you know how you survived. Thing is-- you didn't survive.
You explain it however you want, but I don't think you're telling the truth.

But please, discredit me by attacking my motives rather than my argument.

[Gunther]

huh? I think I've been making a case on Rasputin for a couple of days now. I've made a lot of points against him.

[Jack Shephard]

I kinda have the same feeling Shadowcat, but I can't think of another good solution off the top of my head. Except of course to lynch Havok.

[Joe Who?]

Aaah I forgot the poll ends today.

[Celeste]

I kinda have the same feeling Shadowcat, but I can't think of another good solution off the top of my head. Except of course to lynch Havok.

The only other option I would feel comfortable about right now is White Queen. But I'm not sure she's going to get enough votes at this point for me to consider her.

I guess my main concern at this point is that if we lynch a civ, numbers-wise the baddies might have a clear advantage at that point. I think they're really pushing hard to try and confuse a lot of people in the thread.

[Young Lady]

I'll try to reply to everyone.

WQ: I was referring to baddies who can survive a night kill. In this game, there aren't any (that we know of). It works the other way around.

Havok: That may be in regards to Cyclops, but based on observation (of course, I could be wrong, I have been so many times in this game I lost count) I think he might have been detected by Xavier. It's not that difficult to find other two X-Men.

Longshot: I have briefly read your case, and honestly, it was just slightly better than SC's case on Exodus, and that has to be one of the weakest cases on someone I've ever read. (no offense, SC). I think Polaris made a similar point. Point 8 is worth taking into consideration. I personally have a hard time trying to figure out who is whose teammate. I am always surprised at the end of a game when the baddie team(s) is(are) revealed, and putting together a team like that surely raises an eyebrow.

Vision: Now that I think of it, I can see why he would vote for Marrow. I haven't looked at voting record, but she barely participates, yet always makes sure to cast a vote. It would be nice if you could use quotes to communicate, V.

Spiral: Thanks, dude, but we shouldn't spread the vote.

I guess it's down to Rasputin and Havok. Honestly, I think we're dealing with two independents here. I don't believe Rasputin is scum because of Night 4. I don't feel comfortable voting for either of them, but I don't want to spread the vote, so it's Havok.

Linki - I'm down for White Queen vote too.

[Young Lady]

EBWOP - some stuff there

[Ned Flanders]

Spiral, I am telling the truth.

Linki; not a good idea to spread the vote too much. But the baddies would know that, wouldn't they?

[Joe Who?]

I'm feeling better about Rasputin than I am about havok so my vote is going there for now.

[Jack Shephard]

I'm just worried that Havok is one of Magneto's targets, and if we don't switch votes over efficiently, that we'll waste another lynch. As I said earlier, I believe Havok would be one of Magneto's targets since he was set up yesterday as today's lynchee.

I would switch my vote to White Queen if it came to it.

[Jack Shephard]

Though with Banshee's vote now, I feel less inclined to switch.

[Young Lady]

I'm just worried that Havok is one of Magneto's targets, and if we don't switch votes over efficiently, that we'll waste another lynch. As I said earlier, I believe Havok would be one of Magneto's targets since he was set up yesterday as today's lynchee.

I would switch my vote to White Queen if it came to it.

I do wonder though, with all the redirecting that happened the previous night, what if Magneto's targets have been redirected?

[Epignosis]

T-minus 10 minutes and counting.

[Celeste]

I'm just worried that Havok is one of Magneto's targets, and if we don't switch votes over efficiently, that we'll waste another lynch. As I said earlier, I believe Havok would be one of Magneto's targets since he was set up yesterday as today's lynchee.

I would switch my vote to White Queen if it came to it.

Same here.

I would actually be okay with siding with indies at this point. I get the feeling the civs would need their votes in order to stand a chance of winning, and the indies might need to go along with them in terms of self-preservation. That's assuming we still have at least 5 baddies alive.

Linki: Hawkeye, that's actually a really good point. So maybe instead of Havok or WQ or Mikhail, he ended up switching them for somebody else entirely.

If that's the case, I feel a heck of a lot better about my Havok vote now.

[Gunther]

I'll try to reply to everyone.

WQ: I was referring to baddies who can survive a night kill. In this game, there aren't any (that we know of). It works the other way around.

Havok: That may be in regards to Cyclops, but based on observation (of course, I could be wrong, I have been so many times in this game I lost count) I think he might have been detected by Xavier. It's not that difficult to find other two X-Men.

Longshot: I have briefly read your case, and honestly, it was just slightly better than SC's case on Exodus, and that has to be one of the weakest cases on someone I've ever read. (no offense, SC). I think Polaris made a similar point. Point 8 is worth taking into consideration. I personally have a hard time trying to figure out who is whose teammate. I am always surprised at the end of a game when the baddie team(s) is(are) revealed, and putting together a team like that surely raises an eyebrow.

Vision: Now that I think of it, I can see why he would vote for Marrow. I haven't looked at voting record, but she barely participates, yet always makes sure to cast a vote. It would be nice if you could use quotes to communicate, V.

Spiral: Thanks, dude, but we shouldn't spread the vote.

I guess it's down to Rasputin and Havok. Honestly, I think we're dealing with two independents here. I don't believe Rasputin is scum because of Night 4. I don't feel comfortable voting for either of them, but I don't want to spread the vote, so it's Havok.

Linki - I'm down for White Queen vote too.

You don't think Rasputin is a baddie based on Night 4? You think he was targeted by the Brotherhood on night 4? What makes you think that? He appeared to be targeted for a kill, granted, but the person that tried to do it is very unclear. Could you clarify here?

[Paul Stevens]

I don't think Rasputin is bad, so I won't vote for him. As of late I've been trusting more of the people voting Havok than those voting Rasputin (more, not all - doesn't mean I don't trust some of you), mostly based off the last lynch. Let's find out if I should've changed my vote last time...and hope there's no crazy math involved

[Jack Shephard]

I'm just worried that Havok is one of Magneto's targets, and if we don't switch votes over efficiently, that we'll waste another lynch. As I said earlier, I believe Havok would be one of Magneto's targets since he was set up yesterday as today's lynchee.

I would switch my vote to White Queen if it came to it.

I do wonder though, with all the redirecting that happened the previous night, what if Magneto's targets have been redirected?

Ugh, I completely forgot about that. Well if that is the case, than we might not have to worry about it at all.

I think I might switch my vote then, just to set up a tie.