Grasslands [Game Thread]

[Alison]

I'm caught up. Okay with the idea of giving Sloonei space to breathe. If he doesn't produce results I'm going to end up voting him anyway and I think the other people who currently suspect him will as well.

I think Thunal is very likely a wolf. They were making super surface-level reads and were never paranoid that the reads were being manipulated. eg. "Alison is town because she's confident", "Carotte is town because she re-evaluated on me". We all scumread Sloonei because he gave a baseless townread on nutella for something that was very likely NAI. Same logic applies here: I think town Thunal would hesitate a bit more and wonder if Alison/Carotte was faking these things to pocket her. Doubly so if she feels intimidated by the playerlist.

Scum Vote: Thunal

[staypositivefriend]

I'm caught up. Okay with the idea of giving Sloonei space to breathe. If he doesn't produce results I'm going to end up voting him anyway and I think the other people who currently suspect him will as well.

I think Thunal is very likely a wolf. They were making super surface-level reads and were never paranoid that the reads were being manipulated. eg. "Alison is town because she's confident", "Carotte is town because she re-evaluated on me". We all scumread Sloonei because he gave a baseless townread on nutella for something that was very likely NAI. Same logic applies here: I think town Thunal would hesitate a bit more and wonder if Alison/Carotte was faking these things to pocket her. Doubly so if she feels intimidated by the playerlist.

Scum Vote: Thunal

could you give me an example of a surface-level read that you saw from thunal? i was actually townreading her a bit last night when i iso'd her, and i didnt pick up on any reads that rubbed me the wrong way - i thought her read on you in particular felt really sincere

[Hally]

im extremely sleep deprived atm and don’t think i can actually form coherent thoughts so i probably won’t dig in here again until tomorrow. it’ll be my day off so i’ll have plenty of time to spend here before EoD

[staypositivefriend]

I think Alison is towny from this solving. I've played with her before and as scum (well, SK) she was really only making reads that fit her agenda and not making the same logical sense that she did as town that I feel in this game.

there is where thunal initially outed her townread on alison - she followed it up a little bit more with this post:

True that a lot of tells are player dependent including that one, but I feel like I have to take a more general/umbrella approach to reading the players I don't know. I think for Alison (who I do know) that confidence seems towny. When she was SK she was more hesitant about her reads and gave only leans at the start. I've never seen her as mafia though, only once as town and once as SK.

you could definitely nitpick thunal's read on alison, but i don't particularly like that alison is choosing to frame thunal's reasoning as "townreading alision because she is confident". it seems pretty clear that thunal is saying that she townreads alison because her demeanor is different from her SK game - and the confidence is an element of that difference

[Hally]

also one more time for good measure

CONGRATS SLOONEI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Thunal33]

I'm caught up. Okay with the idea of giving Sloonei space to breathe. If he doesn't produce results I'm going to end up voting him anyway and I think the other people who currently suspect him will as well.

I think Thunal is very likely a wolf. They were making super surface-level reads and were never paranoid that the reads were being manipulated. eg. "Alison is town because she's confident", "Carotte is town because she re-evaluated on me". We all scumread Sloonei because he gave a baseless townread on nutella for something that was very likely NAI. Same logic applies here: I think town Thunal would hesitate a bit more and wonder if Alison/Carotte was faking these things to pocket her. Doubly so if she feels intimidated by the playerlist.

Scum Vote: Thunal

I hedge way more as scum than as town. You saw me as scum. Was I making confident reads like I am this game? Was I never paranoid? I always have a low level of confidence in early reads but I'm calling out the evidence I see and the most likely conclusions from it. I'm starting to doubt my TR on you since I feel like you would know my scum meta better than this.

[Sloonei]

also one more time for good measure

CONGRATS SLOONEI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

thank you hally

i need to recalibrate. champs reveal took my head out of the game completely. i'll dive back into the game soon.

[Sloonei]

oh so that's where the first smiley went.

[Thunal33]

I'm caught up. Okay with the idea of giving Sloonei space to breathe. If he doesn't produce results I'm going to end up voting him anyway and I think the other people who currently suspect him will as well.

I think Thunal is very likely a wolf. They were making super surface-level reads and were never paranoid that the reads were being manipulated. eg. "Alison is town because she's confident", "Carotte is town because she re-evaluated on me". We all scumread Sloonei because he gave a baseless townread on nutella for something that was very likely NAI. Same logic applies here: I think town Thunal would hesitate a bit more and wonder if Alison/Carotte was faking these things to pocket her. Doubly so if she feels intimidated by the playerlist.

Scum Vote: Thunal

I hedge way more as scum than as town. You saw me as scum. Was I making confident reads like I am this game? Was I never paranoid? I always have a low level of confidence in early reads but I'm calling out the evidence I see and the most likely conclusions from it. I'm starting to doubt my TR on you since I feel like you would know my scum meta better than this.

To clarify, by confident reads I meant non-hedgy reads without paranoia stated in them. My actual level of confidence in my reads is low since it's D1.

[tutuu]

I am a little suspicious of Long Con since he doesn't have much to say but he still has a presence and makes jokes and short responses. Is that normal for him?

Yes and I've misexed him a couple of times because of it.

i always giggle when alison says misexed after nutella pointed it out that one time hehehe

[tutuu]

scum vote: thunal

-------------------

town votes:
tutuu - 3 - alison, tutuu, martin
spf - 2 - hally, nutella
nutella - 1 - thunal

scum votes:
carotte - 2 - hally, JJJ
sloonei - 2 - nutella, thunal
thunal - 2 - alison, tutuu
long con - 1 - sloonei

ping me if any mistakes

[nutella]

hi yes youve made a mistake, thunal is simply a cat

[tutuu]

i am also simply a cow (and a bitch) so i am never mafia

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I am a bit bothered by JJJ's progression on Martin, it doesn't seem like he really thought about it, despite mentioning him a few times already.

Spoiler: show

His first mentions of Martin are through the Alison read (that bugs him). A bit later he takes a closer look at Martin since he has no clear opinion:

I looked more closely at Martin. I have no "gripes". The posts emphasize strategic dialogue so far, so I couldn't provide a confident town read. I am not bothered either.

Then, when he does his 6-6 split, Martin is in the + half. (At this time, Martin is pretty much townread. No one scumread him.)

I asked myself to try to split the game at least 6-6 between town-inclined reads and not-town-inclined reads. The latter shouldn't be perceived as "suspicion" as much as "I am less confident they're town than the 6 above them". I chose the 6-6 split arbitrarily; I like to set some kind of numeral goal. I'll have to figure out if the unusual mechanics impact the standard approach to POE pool sizes.

+
tutuu
Hally
Thunal33
staypositivefriend
MartinGG99
Sloonei

Not +
Long Con
NANOOK
novaselinenever
nutella
Alison
Carotte

The names within groups are not ordered. The player I immediately find myself conflicted over is nutella. I like her energy level and engagement, and will have to reconcile that with my gripes.

Later, he puts more emphasis about his view of Martin being vague:

i was just iso'ing martin/thurnal, and i was expecting to come out of it with a scum-lean on thurnal and a townread on martin. weirdly enough, i'm kinda feeling like i'm in the exact opposite position. martin left a strong impression on me with his early townread on thurnal, but his logic doesn't read as: "this is a perspective that is DEFINITELY coming from a town mindset" in the same way that it did when it was happening in the moment. i also wasn't particulary moved by any of his other posts

on the contrary, i actually quite like how much of an open book thurnal is. the way that she unflinchingly accept hally's meta on nutella on #156 and the way that she explicitly brings attention to alison's meta to townread them on #130 does not strike me as somebody who is trying to play the game with an agenda

i'm not completely sure i'll feel the same way when i wake up tomorrow, but i'm especially interested in hearing more from martin right now

My view of Martin is very vague, so I think that's agreeable enough. I have no significant "complaints". I agree about Thurnal though. After looking over their ISO I felt more secure about their sincerity than anyone else here save maybe tutuu. I will temper that with the meta-related question I asked earlier (regarding how Thurnal usually hunts re: town reads and suspects), but in the absence of an answer to that I like them.

Then, Martin appears in his PoE... ?

I don't have much of a "town read" on nutella or Alison, but I'm also not sure I'd call them appropriate Day 1 eliminations. nutella still profiles in a pro-town way with her general energy level, and my suspicions of Alison are not highly developed or confident matters. If I move on from them at least temporarily, that leaves me with a relatively tight POE pool. And it's noteworthy enough that Sloonei would be in it. My dude still hasn't done much.

To be clear, that POE pool would look like this:

Sloonei
Long Con
MartinGG99
Carotte

In that way I relate with Hally. I don't have great confidence that three mafia are in this pile. But one or two seems quite likely at least.

General takes on Martin would be appreciated.

@JaggedJimmyJay It seems like you never had a really clear view of Martin's posting. What made you put him in the + half of the split? Why did you then decide to put him in PoE?

I asked about Martin in that last post because I don't know what to do with them. When I find myself in that position, I ask for help. I gave them the "+" earlier when I tried to divide the game 6/6, and for that moment he seemed vaguely town enough to be there -- just for an innocent tone. The game progressed after that and eventually he wasn't one of the six most town-looking people (because others overtook him). I kinda followed the same trajectory with Sloonei.

[staypositivefriend]

honestly my reads are getting a little messy this game, so im writing my quick thoughts on everyone here to figure out where my head is at. i'm also gonna force myself to take a GTH stance on each one

tutuu: tutuu does not play in a traditional way, so it's impossible for me to read her traditionally. i tried reading through her iso to check for internal consistency/in-depth scumhunting, but i do not think the absence of those things is alignment indicative for tutuu. based on my experiences with playing with her in radiohead mafia, the easiest way to read tutuu is to assess the type of energy that she's giving off. this is more abstract than i would like it to be, but i do get good feelings from tutuu's energy so far - the way that she's manically bouncing between different reads and thought processes reminds me a lot of the tutuu i saw in radiohead, and i never get the sense that tutuu is stilted or that she doesn't know what to say. there's a real sense that tutuu is wearing her heart on her sleeve at all times, and that makes me inclined to think she's playing with a town mindset. i also do like some of the reads that tutuu has outed - her point about hally not giving a reason to townread me as justification for hally bieng town was good, and it's the kind of hyper-specific read that scum usually don't make. gth town

hally: i actually took a look at hally's ISO in the champs finale to contrast it with their ISO in this game - and the differences are pretty pronounced. i got the sense from the way that hally approached their final champ game that they were incredibly eager to align with the town consensus & not really stir the pot or radically change the gamestate. hally's strategy as mafia seemed partially to be lulling the town into a false sense of complacency - and i get a very different vibe from hally in this game. they are fiercely coming up with unique takes and thought processes that do not feel like an attempt to blend in with the rest of the game. in particular, i really like hally gunning for nutella to be a universal townread - i don't see what motivation hally would have as scum to shoot down the suspicions on nutella like they did. the only thing that concerns me about hally is a lack of content in the last day or so (which i can forgive, considering that a lot of us got distracted by the champs stuff), but so far, i do think that it's likely i'm playing with town hally. i guess there's a part of my brain that doesn't want to "commit" to my read on hally just in case im getting duped - but i would call them gth town

long con: i've been trying to figure out whether or not long con's "i am super detached from this game"-style of playing was coming from a genuine place or not. something that inclines me to think that long con isn't using their disinterest as an excuse to be lazy is the fact that they are still outing reads/thoughts in spite of being in a position where they don't ~have~ to make them. in particular, i like long con bringing attention to carotte's lack of stances on #470, because i noticed the same thing in my own readthrough. i would gth townread long con because of that

nanook: his reads on #266 are okay, and i sort of like his townread on nova. i don't really have anything else to say about nanook yet - his lack of interest in the game seems non-alignment indicative and he hasn't given enough content for me to honestly know whether or not he's playing with a town mindset. gth town, i guess

sloonei: i remember that sloonei got really flustered/frustrated by the early pushes on him in our final championship game, and my intent has been to give him the space that he needs to play the game and figure out the game on his own time. that said, i don't feel like sloonei has actually done anything with the space that we've given him. there is a distinct lack of curiosity/inquisitiveness from sloonei in this game that i saw in sloonei's game in spades in sf3 and the final champs game. i do not have a clear sense of where sloonei's head is at, and that concerns me as someone who usually has a pretty good idea of what sloonei is thinking (or at least, i assume i do :P). gth scum

nova: there is a real feeling of earnestness to nova's posts that i feel are much, much more likely to come from a town mindset than a scum one. i can't actually substantiate this hunch of mine with any logic, but there is a certain self-consciousness/honesty to nova's progression today that it's hard for me to be suspicious of them. gth town, but i do want to see more

thunal: i started out with a mild scumlean on thunal (because i thought the way that she outed a weird so early in the game was eyebrow raising/not coming from a genuine place), but her tone and her play has improved tenfold since then. reading through thunal's iso, she is constantly striving to clear people who aren't her, and i never feel like she's nervous about boxing herself in or feeling out of place w/the game. it's the mix of how easily thunal has integrated themselves into the game with how fluid and specific their logic is that makes me townlean thunal. gth town

nutella: when nutella was mafia in radiohead, i almost immediately caught on to the fact that they weren't really playing with a sense of conviction. on the contrary, i sense nothing but conviction in nutella's tone this game. her early push on sloonei felt like it was coming from the mindset of someone who was genuinely excited to catch the mafia, it felt like a detective putting the pieces together and getting excited about catching them, and that's something i consider a LOT more likely to come from town. pairing that with the fact that hally has a ~~godread~~ on them as well, i townlean nutella. gth town

martin: i mentioned last night that martin left a strong impression on me when he opened the game w/a relatively confident townread on thunal. unfortunately, martin's ISO drops off a lot after that. the majority of his posts so far have been responses to the parts of the game that he has missed, and they are fine. he's making a lot of observations and a lot of thoughts that appear good on a surface level, but i don't see much followthrough with the observations he's making. i have no idea who martin actually scumreads the most after reading all of his catch-up posts, and that concerns me a little bit. i still do like martin's tone but i'm not convinced his logic/gamesolving is equally as compelling. gth scum

alison: my biggest bone to pick with alison right now is the way that she framed her read on thunal - i don't like that she characterized thunal's tr on her as being about "confidence" when it was clearly about measuring expectations from one game to the next. still, i don't have any specific issues with alison in this game other than the very broad feeling that there is something wrong with her tone this game. it maybe feels a little bit too careful, or not as natural as i expected - but i can't actually substantiate my concerns about alison with any type of logic. i honestly need to see more from this slot to form a more educated opinion but i Guess i would gth scum

carotte: good, solid observations and analysis that nevertheless feel dissociated and detached from the current context of the game. i don't particularly know what carotte is thinking at any given moment, and i also feel like a lot of her posts have a lot of good thoughts and observations that she does not formulate into conclusions. there is a sense of aimlessness to carotte's hunting today that rubs me the wrong way, even though i like quite a few of her posts tonally. gth scum

jagged: the only real beef i have with jagged is his early handling of the pressure on sloonei - but reading through the context again, i can understand that he may have tried so hard to explain sloonei's actions because he felt that he was prompted to by one of hally's questions. there have been a few moments where i have hiveminded with jagged - particularly on our suspicion/paranoia toward alison, but there haven't been any major: "yeah, jagged is definitely town" moments that i've felt from him in the 3 previous games we've played. i hate to hedge on jagged's alignment but if there was a null read in this list, it would be this one. i would cautiously call jagged gth town, and mostly because there are quite a few people that im suspicious of more than him

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I keep seeing uncertainties surrounding my treatment of Sloonei. I will explain exactly why I did everything that I did, but I will only do this once. I have to count on the readers to take me seriously and avoid confirmation bias. Self-defense is completely pointless otherwise.

As soon as I replaced into the game and made my first post, I received a question:

hi jay! is sloonei wolfing?

It was the very first post after my first post. My framing of the game started here. Hally's question did not surprise me, because I understand that I am viewed as someone who can reliably read Sloonei. So, given Hally's question, I made that my first point of interest to integrate myself into this game. I reviewed Sloonei's posts and the suspicions people stated of him. And then I said what I felt:

~ Sloonei was, on his own power, "fine". He hadn't done anything that bothered me, but he also hadn't done much in general. Gun to my head he's town, but I cannot give you a confident statement yet.

~ The suspicions people stated on Sloonei don't strike me as well-founded. I can see a clear town orientation that can exist in Sloonei's town read on nutella that nobody else had to that point considered (at least out loud), and so I shared my perspective on that.

~ I specifically indicated that from there, I wanted to leave Sloonei to deal with himself and decide how I felt.

~ Hally asked me a specific question about my view of Sloonei, and I gave a specific answer Click. Answering that question required me to dig deeper into my rationale to adequately expand on and explain what I had in mind, which will then inevitably be viewed as "going to bat for Sloonei". Could I have said "wait and see, I want him to talk first"? Probably. Sure. I am not some automoton that responds in a precisely predicted manner at every turn to every prompt, and this kind of thing is the definition of nitpicking. Hally asked me a question, and I wanted to answer their question. That's really all there is to that.

[staypositivefriend]

so, from towniest to scummiest, i guess that leaves me at:

nutella
tutuu
hally
nova
thunal
long con
nanook
jagged
martin
alison
sloonei
carotte

eh. i don't know how good i feel about those names at the bottom - i'm going to try to focus more on townhunting than i am with scumhunting, because i think i'm better at telling when people are being genuine than i am at searching specifically for scum

[JaggedJimmyJay]

[mention]staypositivefriend[/mention] you asked me about nutella. nutella has a strong history, particularly recent history, for her mafia-aligned play around here. For that I may be guilty of holding her to higher standard of "town tells". At face value I think she looks fine. I like her energy level and her effort, and I don't think she seems particularly disingenuous. I have to reconcile that with her treatment of Sloonei, which I found almost a caricaturized rendition of Generic Nutella And Sloonei, which gives me some degree of pause. I don't think she's a good player to eliminate today at least.

[staypositivefriend]

@staypositivefriend you asked me about nutella. nutella has a strong history, particularly recent history, for her mafia-aligned play around here. For that I may be guilty of holding her to higher standard of "town tells". At face value I think she looks fine. I like her energy level and her effort, and I don't think she seems particularly disingenuous. I have to reconcile that with her treatment of Sloonei, which I found almost a caricaturized rendition of Generic Nutella And Sloonei, which gives me some degree of pause. I don't think she's a good player to eliminate today at least.

that makes sense - i'm a little worried about getting caught up in my own hubris, because a huge part of the reason i townread nutella is because of how radically different her tone comes across to me in this game vs her tone when she was mafia in radiohead mafia. if she has a reputation for being a strong scum player, then i want to be conscientious of that. that said, the evidence points to me rn that nutella is more likely to be town than not

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I am thoroughly out of sorts today. I sent a mass email to my students apologizing for missing our Wednesday Zoom meeting.

It's Tuesday.

Forgive me if I come off as a Grumpy Gary at points here. This has been my whole October.

~~~

Meanwhile, I think Sloonei's town. I'm reviewing his posts today (Tuesday, not Wednesday), and I think he looks the part. As soon as he could dedicate some energy to the thread beyond frustration, he engaged the kinds of hunting modes I expect from him. He's incisive in his questions, and they are relevant and productive. His dig at me is a good example: I don't care if he missed that I was going for six names. He felt I was defending him and then didn't feature him on the townsquad, which understandably may inspire questions -- he is as attuned to me as I am to him. His take on Thunal goofing "Carotte" vs. "Carotenoid" is the kind of thing he will poke at not as a "push", but as a springboard to better understand Thunal and everyone interacting with Thunal. I think he's a'ight.

[nutella]

so, from towniest to scummiest, i guess that leaves me at:

nutella
tutuu
hally
nova
thunal
long con
nanook
jagged
martin
alison
sloonei
carotte

eh. i don't know how good i feel about those names at the bottom - i'm going to try to focus more on townhunting than i am with scumhunting, because i think i'm better at telling when people are being genuine than i am at searching specifically for scum

feeling like we have very similar views of the game rn, I think our lists are extremely similar and I'd put you at the top in my place. I'd maybe move alison up a bit, and mayyybe hally down slightly but I've felt way better about them than I did at first, otherwise I agree with this order pretty closely.

[staypositivefriend]

so, from towniest to scummiest, i guess that leaves me at:

nutella
tutuu
hally
nova
thunal
long con
nanook
jagged
martin
alison
sloonei
carotte

eh. i don't know how good i feel about those names at the bottom - i'm going to try to focus more on townhunting than i am with scumhunting, because i think i'm better at telling when people are being genuine than i am at searching specifically for scum

feeling like we have very similar views of the game rn, I think our lists are extremely similar and I'd put you at the top in my place. I'd maybe move alison up a bit, and mayyybe hally down slightly but I've felt way better about them than I did at first, otherwise I agree with this order pretty closely.

do you townread alison at all? if so, could you help me see her as town? i dont know if im having such a hard time tring her this game because im expecting her to sound exactly like she did in radiohead mafia, but there is just something about her tone that's getting to me

[Sloonei]

sloonei: i remember that sloonei got really flustered/frustrated by the early pushes on him in our final championship game, and my intent has been to give him the space that he needs to play the game and figure out the game on his own time. that said, i don't feel like sloonei has actually done anything with the space that we've given him. there is a distinct lack of curiosity/inquisitiveness from sloonei in this game that i saw in sloonei's game in spades in sf3 and the final champs game. i do not have a clear sense of where sloonei's head is at, and that concerns me as someone who usually has a pretty good idea of what sloonei is thinking (or at least, i assume i do :P). gth scum

I do not feel like this is a fair assessment. I've done my fair share of prodding and digging. Not as much as in the champs environment because A) we have a tighter post cap here and B) this isn't champs and champs was exhausting; i'm still recovering.

If you have direct concerns, please talk to me about them. if you can spare the posts.

[nutella]

so, from towniest to scummiest, i guess that leaves me at:

nutella
tutuu
hally
nova
thunal
long con
nanook
jagged
martin
alison
sloonei
carotte

eh. i don't know how good i feel about those names at the bottom - i'm going to try to focus more on townhunting than i am with scumhunting, because i think i'm better at telling when people are being genuine than i am at searching specifically for scum

feeling like we have very similar views of the game rn, I think our lists are extremely similar and I'd put you at the top in my place. I'd maybe move alison up a bit, and mayyybe hally down slightly but I've felt way better about them than I did at first, otherwise I agree with this order pretty closely.

do you townread alison at all? if so, could you help me see her as town? i dont know if im having such a hard time tring her this game because im expecting her to sound exactly like she did in radiohead mafia, but there is just something about her tone that's getting to me

eh, I don't know that I particularly townread her for any specific reason, I'm just not willing to say I scumread her either. I hate to say null but she's kinda just.... Alison so far.

[Sloonei]

so, from towniest to scummiest, i guess that leaves me at:

nutella
tutuu
hally
nova
thunal
long con
nanook
jagged
martin
alison
sloonei
carotte

eh. i don't know how good i feel about those names at the bottom - i'm going to try to focus more on townhunting than i am with scumhunting, because i think i'm better at telling when people are being genuine than i am at searching specifically for scum

feeling like we have very similar views of the game rn, I think our lists are extremely similar and I'd put you at the top in my place. I'd maybe move alison up a bit, and mayyybe hally down slightly but I've felt way better about them than I did at first, otherwise I agree with this order pretty closely.

do you townread alison at all? if so, could you help me see her as town? i dont know if im having such a hard time tring her this game because im expecting her to sound exactly like she did in radiohead mafia, but there is just something about her tone that's getting to me

eh, I don't know that I particularly townread her for any specific reason, I'm just not willing to say I scumread her either. I hate to say null but she's kinda just.... Alison so far.

Have you seen alison's scum game before?

[staypositivefriend]

sloonei: i remember that sloonei got really flustered/frustrated by the early pushes on him in our final championship game, and my intent has been to give him the space that he needs to play the game and figure out the game on his own time. that said, i don't feel like sloonei has actually done anything with the space that we've given him. there is a distinct lack of curiosity/inquisitiveness from sloonei in this game that i saw in sloonei's game in spades in sf3 and the final champs game. i do not have a clear sense of where sloonei's head is at, and that concerns me as someone who usually has a pretty good idea of what sloonei is thinking (or at least, i assume i do :P). gth scum

I do not feel like this is a fair assessment. I've done my fair share of prodding and digging. Not as much as in the champs environment because A) we have a tighter post cap here and B) this isn't champs and champs was exhausting; i'm still recovering.

If you have direct concerns, please talk to me about them. if you can spare the posts.

i'm not expecting a champs-level amount of effort from you (and i dont think im giving that level of effort either - it'd be unfair to assume differently of you), but i am expecting for you to become obvious town to me the way that you became obvious town to me in the other 2 games we played

my biggest issue with you so far might just be that i don't see a lot of follow-through in your prodding and digging. when you asked a question in champs, i almost always had a solid sense of where your head was at and what you were trying to accomplish by asking your questions - and i dont really see that from you here.

if you are town, then my suggestion is just to solve like you normally would and wait for me to find you

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I have more active suspicion of Alison than anyone else. I also grant though that it's not a confident matter, and I can see alternative realities where she's town. Carotte is my most-preferred chop as "second-most" actively suspected without a clear town orientation that I could identify, and by generic POE.

[nutella]

Have you seen alison's scum game before?

yeah, she fooled me in space invaders

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

Hello I’m way behind

Have we decided to give me the gun yet, and if not have we decided to give it to sloonei yet?

[nutella]

Hello I’m way behind

Have we decided to give me the gun yet, and if not have we decided to give it to sloonei yet?

who's mafia?

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

Hello I’m way behind

Have we decided to give me the gun yet, and if not have we decided to give it to sloonei yet?

who's mafia?

You know I hate this question literally every time someone replies to a post of mine asking a question with “who’s mafia” instead of just answering my question

So from now on I’m going to reply to it with some version of “you motherfucka” k thx

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'd give the gun to SPF or nova right now.

[staypositivefriend]

I'd give the gun to SPF or nova right now.

why is nova one of your strongest townreads? if you've broken it down already, then i missed it

[Sloonei]

carotte: good, solid observations and analysis that nevertheless feel dissociated and detached from the current context of the game. i don't particularly know what carotte is thinking at any given moment, and i also feel like a lot of her posts have a lot of good thoughts and observations that she does not formulate into conclusions. there is a sense of aimlessness to carotte's hunting today that rubs me the wrong way, even though i like quite a few of her posts tonally. gth scum

Can you talk some more about this and why it's a bad thing? If they are good observations, why is the relative dissociation necessarily a bad thing? Perhaps give us some examples of what you're talking about.

Admittedly I have not looked at carot much at all yet despite her being the most popular suspect other than myself. I'll put that on the To Do list.

[Sloonei]

I am feeling inclined to say Hally should get the gun all of a sudden.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'd give the gun to SPF or nova right now.

why is nova one of your strongest townreads? if you've broken it down already, then i missed it

I haven't really. I just think that when he showed up and did his thing, his posts screamed town. It was very much the right look. In parallel that's what I like about Nanook -- he identified that with the same degree of assertiveness right as it happened.

Some examples:

Post - I kinda felt this. When I initially subbed in and tried to take in the game, I found it to be a rather bland experience. It was hard to get a lot out of the posts that had been made to that point.

Post - Looks authentic and is agreeable.

Post - The only person to assertively agree with my specific Alison take (perhaps you came close SPF), so free points.

Post - Perhaps a dumb read on my part, but this seems town.

Post and Post - I like this progression on Martin.

Post - Poking me about Alison, a read he and I share and given the POE I wrote in there without here, is the right look.

[staypositivefriend]

carotte: good, solid observations and analysis that nevertheless feel dissociated and detached from the current context of the game. i don't particularly know what carotte is thinking at any given moment, and i also feel like a lot of her posts have a lot of good thoughts and observations that she does not formulate into conclusions. there is a sense of aimlessness to carotte's hunting today that rubs me the wrong way, even though i like quite a few of her posts tonally. gth scum

Can you talk some more about this and why it's a bad thing? If they are good observations, why is the relative dissociation necessarily a bad thing? Perhaps give us some examples of what you're talking about.

Admittedly I have not looked at carot much at all yet despite her being the most popular suspect other than myself. I'll put that on the To Do list.

good observations are only half the battle in a mafia game - you need to use the observations that you're making to advance your reads (and the game-state, by proxy)

so, for example, carotte made this post about thunal early on in the game:

So far I feel like Thunal is really reserved. There's a kind of weirdish balance between very specific reactions and general agreeing/bouncing off that feels a bit like ~blending in.

Spoiler: show

I also think I can town-lean Thunal33 so far.

His explanation didn't match what I think a scum would be possibly inclined to say.

What do you think a scum would be inclined to say?

I also think I can town-lean Thunal33 so far.

His explanation didn't match what I think a scum would be possibly inclined to say.

can you expand on this a little bit more? how would you expect scum to react to your question, and how did her answer differ?

I think a scum would point to my aforementioned level of experience in FM games with regards to my comfort level in response. As in, that would be the easy argument to make; a new player who's scum may be more uncomfortable than most players.

Instead, Thunal33 starts talking about themselves in comparison, and that's why they think my comfort level can be AI at the moment.

As to whether that's something they can do as part of one's "scumrange", I don't know and time will tell.

For the moment though, I think that process of thought or reasoning was more likely to be from town than scum.

That makes sense, I don't think I would talk about how I'm often nervous at the start as scum if I'm nervous scum.

The second post (it's the answer to post #1) feels really weird. It's like, acknowledging it for the sake of acknowledging it and the way Thunal is agreeing with the townread on her doesn't feel super natural, especially since the initial question was not answered.

although i do not find the behavior that carotte is outlining here to be scummy, i do consider it to be a good/thoughtful observation, and i like that carotte is exploring unique angles. but how does carotte follow up this early suspicion on thunal?

I like Thunal more today.

I'm not sure if everyone understands that the person sent to the grassland only gets to shoot *among* the persons in the grassland? (most voted, least voted, sent by scum)

I think tutuu & nutella are town. I liked Nanook/SPF/nova/LC/JJJ with no particular order.

I have some mixed feelings about Alison. I think that the only thing I really disliked is how she asked Hally why I wasn't on their read list (I thought it was pretty evident that they jsut didn't have a read on me) and then not really followed up when Hally answered that they didn't have a read yet.

well, she doesn't - she says that she likes thunal more today, but it's extremely unclear how she got from point A to point B in her read on thunal. when hally asks carotte why her read on thunal shifted, carotte gives this response:

where did carotte switch to tr’ing thun? did i miss that? why did that happen @Carotenoid?

I said that I liked them more today here
It's not really a townread though. I... don't actually remember what I liked but there was some posts I liked.

this is so non-descript that it makes me concerned that carotte is not playing with a town mindset, or with a town thought process. it especially concerns me that carotte goes from making this observation about thunal to immediately questioning thunal again in her very next posts. when i describe carotte's scumhunting as "aimless", this is what i mean

and when i describe carotte's scumhunting as dissociated from the broader context of the rest of the game, i'm specifically referring to posts like #318, where she drops a ton of reads on the players who have been focal to the discussion today without any sort of analysis or visible thought process. it's not that carotte isn't talking about the people in this game who are focal to the discussion - she is. but her analysis of those people feels shallow and like she's throwing reads at a wall more than anything

[Alison]

I think Alison is towny from this solving. I've played with her before and as scum (well, SK) she was really only making reads that fit her agenda and not making the same logical sense that she did as town that I feel in this game.

there is where thunal initially outed her townread on alison - she followed it up a little bit more with this post:

True that a lot of tells are player dependent including that one, but I feel like I have to take a more general/umbrella approach to reading the players I don't know. I think for Alison (who I do know) that confidence seems towny. When she was SK she was more hesitant about her reads and gave only leans at the start. I've never seen her as mafia though, only once as town and once as SK.

you could definitely nitpick thunal's read on alison, but i don't particularly like that alison is choosing to frame thunal's reasoning as "townreading alision because she is confident". it seems pretty clear that thunal is saying that she townreads alison because her demeanor is different from her SK game - and the confidence is an element of that difference

I think this read is actually pretty bad though. "Alison is different from that one SK I had with her" is a very questionable way of viewing the situation. Could Alison be faking a change in demeanour to attract a townread? Don't SKs normally play similarly to a townie D1 anyway because they're alone? How can I claim to understand the difference between Alison's town and scum game just by seeing 1 SK game from her and one fragment of a town game where she subbed in at the last day?

I expect these questions to be running through her mind if she's town, and they aren't. Notably, she seems to believe that confidence in reads is enough out of my scum range to give me a firm townread for it. That's not a reasonable belief to have and it's not a belief that I buy Thunal genuinely having.

[Alison]

I'm caught up. Okay with the idea of giving Sloonei space to breathe. If he doesn't produce results I'm going to end up voting him anyway and I think the other people who currently suspect him will as well.

I think Thunal is very likely a wolf. They were making super surface-level reads and were never paranoid that the reads were being manipulated. eg. "Alison is town because she's confident", "Carotte is town because she re-evaluated on me". We all scumread Sloonei because he gave a baseless townread on nutella for something that was very likely NAI. Same logic applies here: I think town Thunal would hesitate a bit more and wonder if Alison/Carotte was faking these things to pocket her. Doubly so if she feels intimidated by the playerlist.

Scum Vote: Thunal

I hedge way more as scum than as town. You saw me as scum. Was I making confident reads like I am this game? Was I never paranoid? I always have a low level of confidence in early reads but I'm calling out the evidence I see and the most likely conclusions from it. I'm starting to doubt my TR on you since I feel like you would know my scum meta better than this.

I'm not sure why you expect me to reverse my opinion on a behavior I found scummy simply because you didn't demonstrate it in another game where you were scum, in a completely different context. That's grasping at straws.

[staypositivefriend]

the deadline for tomorrow is basically right around the time i'm able to get on my laptop & post stuff. i can't guarantee that i'll be here

i'd like to place my vote tonight in that case - should i be placing my vote on the person i scumread the most? i forget the system we're doing, lol

[Alison]

To clarify, by confident reads I meant non-hedgy reads without paranoia stated in them. My actual level of confidence in my reads is low since it's D1.

The implied line of reasoning you are engaging in is "Thunal did not do X as wolf. Therefore X is not scummy for Thunal."

That doesn't make sense, especially not when the sample size is one game. There are very few players whose scum repertoire is so limited that they only have access to a few ways of approaching the game as scum and if they deviate from those ways then it proves they aren't scum. Just because you did not do a scummy thing in the PerC game does not mean the behavior isn't scummy

[Alison]

the deadline for tomorrow is basically right around the time i'm able to get on my laptop & post stuff. i can't guarantee that i'll be here

i'd like to place my vote tonight in that case - should i be placing my vote on the person i scumread the most? i forget the system we're doing, lol

Yes, and it's locked in for the day.

[Sloonei]

the deadline for tomorrow is basically right around the time i'm able to get on my laptop & post stuff. i can't guarantee that i'll be here

i'd like to place my vote tonight in that case - should i be placing my vote on the person i scumread the most? i forget the system we're doing, lol

the deadline is literally the moment my shift at work starts.

i'll be around as much as I can before that.

[Alison]

#565 and #566 are both pretty townie posts. Not interested in pursuing a JJJ exe at this point in time. His explanation of his thought process and progression on Sloonei makes sense to me. My biggest beef with him is the "AtE" thing but he said that was just a playstyle difference and I think that's a plausible claim. SPF up to a solid townread.

[Alison]

so, from towniest to scummiest, i guess that leaves me at:

nutella
tutuu
hally
nova
thunal
long con
nanook
jagged
martin
alison
sloonei
carotte

eh. i don't know how good i feel about those names at the bottom - i'm going to try to focus more on townhunting than i am with scumhunting, because i think i'm better at telling when people are being genuine than i am at searching specifically for scum

feeling like we have very similar views of the game rn, I think our lists are extremely similar and I'd put you at the top in my place. I'd maybe move alison up a bit, and mayyybe hally down slightly but I've felt way better about them than I did at first, otherwise I agree with this order pretty closely.

do you townread alison at all? if so, could you help me see her as town? i dont know if im having such a hard time tring her this game because im expecting her to sound exactly like she did in radiohead mafia, but there is just something about her tone that's getting to me

eh, I don't know that I particularly townread her for any specific reason, I'm just not willing to say I scumread her either. I hate to say null but she's kinda just.... Alison so far.

Have you seen alison's scum game before?

has she ever

[Alison]

Okay, I'm caught up. I think my doc pool is SPF, Hally, tutuu, nova. These are the players with the highest chance to get shot by mafia (probability of being town + probability of being shot if town). I'm leaning slightly towards nova at the moment because they're having the hardest time getting into the game so I want to give them more time to get going. If any of the others are shot I sort of know where they stand on things and can move from there knowing all their reads are made in good faith. If nova gets shot I don't get as much info.

[staypositivefriend]

i'm gonna go to bed soon, and after mulling it over, i'm placing my vote on carrote. if i think about today holistically, then she's the player that i have the most reasons to be suspicious of. tbh i'm not too sure of this vote and i wish i had gotten more time to discuss the game with her, but i have more reasons to believe that she's mafia than not right now

as for who we should save/choose to use the kill tonight, my vote is for one of nutella/tutuu/hally (and maybe nova - i do like quite a lot of their posts even if i dont tr them as confidently as i do the other 3)

[Alison]

i'm gonna go to bed soon, and after mulling it over, i'm placing my vote on carrote. if i think about today holistically, then she's the player that i have the most reasons to be suspicious of. tbh i'm not too sure of this vote and i wish i had gotten more time to discuss the game with her, but i have more reasons to believe that she's mafia than not right now

as for who we should save/choose to use the kill tonight, my vote is for one of nutella/tutuu/hally (and maybe nova - i do like quite a lot of their posts even if i dont tr them as confidently as i do the other 3)

You're supposed to vote for yourself as well as Carotte (you can vote for multiple people). That way you'll have at least 1 vote to nutella/tutuu/Hally/nova's 0, to guarantee that they'll get the gun and doc save.

[staypositivefriend]

i'm gonna go to bed soon, and after mulling it over, i'm placing my vote on carrote. if i think about today holistically, then she's the player that i have the most reasons to be suspicious of. tbh i'm not too sure of this vote and i wish i had gotten more time to discuss the game with her, but i have more reasons to believe that she's mafia than not right now

as for who we should save/choose to use the kill tonight, my vote is for one of nutella/tutuu/hally (and maybe nova - i do like quite a lot of their posts even if i dont tr them as confidently as i do the other 3)

You're supposed to vote for yourself as well as Carotte (you can vote for multiple people). That way you'll have at least 1 vote to nutella/tutuu/Hally/nova's 0, to guarantee that they'll get the gun and doc save.

got it, thanks!

[tutuu]

Pls color the votes in the future guys ;-;