Grasslands [Game Thread]

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

I have the same reaction to reading jay’s gth and immediately preceding gth stuff that trump does being read CNN headlines

Fake, fake, this is all fake

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I have the same reaction to reading jay’s gth and immediately preceding gth stuff that trump does being read CNN headlines

Fake, fake, this is all fake

If you're town, please stop asking me to read your mind.

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

I don’t think I’ve asked you to read my mind

The thread/QT, maybe, not my mind tho

[nutella]

i want to scumread that meme from alison fml

[staypositivefriend]

i want to scumread that meme from alison fml

why?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don’t think I’ve asked you to read my mind

The thread/QT, maybe, not my mind tho

I agree that via the QT, you don't fit as a mafia teammate with nutella.

Otherwise, you're asking me to read your mind. I can only get so far with "I understand that Nanook plays this way and it doesn't inherently make him mafia".

It doesn't make you town either. If there's something you've done that you believe is town-indicative, or that you think I should view as town-indicative, then please highlight it. I'm telling you right now that I am not there, and I don't really care whether you trust me.

[nutella]

i want to scumread that meme from alison fml

why?

I'm not sure, just my sense of alison's personality makes me think she's more likely to make a meme like that as scum than as town

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Lots of Ts up there.

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

I don’t think I’ve asked you to read my mind

The thread/QT, maybe, not my mind tho

I agree that via the QT, you don't fit as a mafia teammate with nutella.

Otherwise, you're asking me to read your mind. I can only get so far with "I understand that Nanook plays this way and it doesn't inherently make him mafia".

It doesn't make you town either. If there's something you've done that you believe is town-indicative, or that you think I should view as town-indicative, then please highlight it. I'm telling you right now that I am not there, and I don't really care whether you trust me.

How is that at all asking you to read my mind

My reads are out there

The NK, the grasslands choice, my snap nova read, these are all things that combined should lead you to think I’m town. I have 34 posts in thread and like 10 or something in the QT. That *should* be enough to get you past “null so default to a scum read” territory on me, combined with NK and grassland choices it *should* be enough to give you more than zero changed to a begrudging one “not teammate” read.

Is there a reason you aren’t 100% locked in this game or that I should otherwise be considering here? Cause I expect normal townJay to default to me being town when I’m doing things like making reads and getting in, paraphrasing you, “meaningless arguments.” I do not expect jay to go “meh idk he’s nanook mafia I guess?”

[Alison]

i want to scumread that meme from alison fml

why?

I'm not sure, just my sense of alison's personality makes me think she's more likely to make a meme like that as scum than as town

I have made many memes at town! I am not humorless

[nutella]

i want to scumread that meme from alison fml

why?

I'm not sure, just my sense of alison's personality makes me think she's more likely to make a meme like that as scum than as town

I have made many memes at town! I am not humorless

this reads like an admission you're scum this time tho

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don’t think I’ve asked you to read my mind

The thread/QT, maybe, not my mind tho

I agree that via the QT, you don't fit as a mafia teammate with nutella.

Otherwise, you're asking me to read your mind. I can only get so far with "I understand that Nanook plays this way and it doesn't inherently make him mafia".

It doesn't make you town either. If there's something you've done that you believe is town-indicative, or that you think I should view as town-indicative, then please highlight it. I'm telling you right now that I am not there, and I don't really care whether you trust me.

How is that at all asking you to read my mind

My reads are out there

The NK, the grasslands choice, my snap nova read, these are all things that combined should lead you to think I’m town. I have 34 posts in thread and like 10 or something in the QT. That *should* be enough to get you past “null so default to a scum read” territory on me, combined with NK and grassland choices it *should* be enough to give you more than zero changed to a begrudging one “not teammate” read.

Is there a reason you aren’t 100% locked in this game or that I should otherwise be considering here? Cause I expect normal townJay to default to me being town when I’m doing things like making reads and getting in, paraphrasing you, “meaningless arguments.” I do not expect jay to go “meh idk he’s nanook mafia I guess?”

You’re a mafia read by process of elimination. I don’t think anything you said in this post is a reasonable expectation. “Making reads” as a standard for town reading you is frankly ridiculous. You’ll never get suspected ever again if that holds. Pointless QT arguments could be town. You’re kind of argumentative in general so spare me if I don’t take confidence in that.

I do like your snap read on nova. That’s a single tiny thing in a great big thread.

[Sloonei]

Work was exhausting. I’ll hover around the thread but I don’t have the energy for any heavy lifting tonight. I’ll be around tomorrow afternoon for all the things.

[Sloonei]

I got a lot of pings tonight and I’ll respond to those when I can.

[Hally]

page 26

JaggedJimmyJay do you object to Sloonei being the chop today?

At this point, no I don’t. I can poke holes in accusations rendered at Sloonei, but that doesn’t make him a civilian. I should be more secure about him than I am by now.

Does that mean you think he's suspicious because you're not secure about him or is that more a statement about Sloonei not doing enough for you to get a solid read on him?

More the latter.

As I sit back and roast on the game, I trend toward an Alison vote again. I respect her efforts to talk with me, and I don't think her posts are terrible or anything -- but my holistic vision of the game leads me to her in a mafia chair. I am a bit piqued recently too by what I perceive as awkward challenges she has given me, like it's almost competitive. If you're going to get me chopped you're going to have to do better than that. That doesn't strike me as the right mindset.

why is it a scummy mindset though?

Blind Interactions

Is there anything preventing you from saying I could be "particularly compatible" with Sloonei or don't appear to be "likely mafia teammates" with Sloonei?

I could imagine arguments for both, but to see you only team me up with Long Con and not really Sloonei (who's marked as having yellow with me) has me curious.

this is a very strange post

what arguments could you imagine for why you’re compatible with sloonei? and what about not compatible? and why did you feel the need to ask about your own compatibility with him? how does that help you solve?

i’m not following you here. you think scum wouldn’t have wanted to change the consensus last day but yet you tr sloonei because he followed the consensus and scum wouldn’t do that. like, how can it be both that scum would do X AND also that it’s twtbaw to do X so they would avoid doing it? this argument just doesn’t move me

I was thinking that because Sloonei was the next person in the PoE. As the next person in the PoE scum!Sloonei and his scummates wouldn't be happy with the consensus. However, if Sloonei was town and scum knew they were heading towards a mislim on Carotte that set the groundwork for another mislim on Sloonei they would be quite happy with the consensus.

but thun, look what’s happening this day. we’re trending towards an alison elimination, not a sloonei elimination. or at least, it will probably be a close vote. so the consensus has shifted in a way that is favorable to sloonei, and he’s clearly had a hand in that by hard pushing alison. how does this jive with your argument? like, you say scum would be happy with the consensus D1 if sloonei was town because carotte’s elimination would lead to sloonei’s elimination. but it’s pretty obvious that we aren’t just sleepwalking into eliminating sloonei this day. it could be alison, who was not a consensus top suspect for most of D1. doesn’t that invalidate your argument? because what you think the wolves would want if sloonei was town (i.e. a sloonei elimination) is increasingly less likely to happen? why can’t that shift in consensus be scum motivated to benefit scum!sloonei?

JaggedJimmyJay do you object to Sloonei being the chop today?

At this point, no I don’t. I can poke holes in accusations rendered at Sloonei, but that doesn’t make him a civilian. I should be more secure about him than I am by now.

why do you keep poking holes in people’s accusations of him if you don’t even tr him? i know we had this back and forth already D1 when you defended him but i feel like your exchange with alison is the same kind of thing. you keep saying you don’t tr him yet you seem to like batting away accusations thrown at him. it’s just... kinda weird. like, you clearly have your own reservations with sloonei, so why does such a significant portion of what you talk about when it comes to him seem to be defending him rather than elaborating on your own concerns with him? you seem like you don’t actually want to suspect him

I know what that is, I just learned it: chainsawing!

could be

why do you keep poking holes in people’s accusations of him if you don’t even tr him? i know we had this back and forth already D1 when you defended him but i feel like your exchange with alison is the same kind of thing. you keep saying you don’t tr him yet you seem to like batting away accusations thrown at him. it’s just... kinda weird. like, you clearly have your own reservations with sloonei, so why does such a significant portion of what you talk about when it comes to him seem to be defending him rather than elaborating on your own concerns with him? you seem like you don’t actually want to suspect him

Poking holes can have at least two purposes: pro-Sloonei purposes, and anti-Sloonei accuser purposes. When I griped at Alison, my motivation was suspicion of her. Regardless of my struggle to clear Sloonei, if I feel Alison has made bogus assertions about him then my priority is to express that -- because it reflects badly on her. It's the sort of thing that is often wrongly turned into "chainsaw defense" accusations.

I literally think there is not a good case against Sloonei in this game. I think there have been numerous accusations hurled at him that are poorly-conceived. I thought Alison's was outright in bad faith, so I accused her of that. That's why I am so frustrated about it. Because "a lack of a good case" is not the same thing as "Sloonei is town", and I would vastly prefer to be able to just say the latter. The best I can give you is that his posts don't fill me with that good fuzzy feeling that I would expect them to fill me with. I realize that's vague, but sometimes that's just the way it is. They're not bad posts. They're just posts. It's kind of driving me nuts. I can't tell if he is lacking something that matters per his alignment, or if he is too fatigued of the game to be Sloonei.

I am accustomed to people being suspicious of Sloonei for bad reasons. He has dealt with that pretty much his entire Mafia "career", and usually I am the one tasked with setting the record straight. Most of the time though that is accompanied by Sloonei also doing things that I can concretely call "civilian Sloonei". In this game I am seeing the same kinds of suspicions that I think misunderstand (if I am generous) Sloonei, but I am not consistently seeing the congruent town in him. He hovers in this infuriating beige space and won't get out of it. It's very difficult for me to reconcile both sides of that -- thinking suspicions he has faced are bad suspicions while also failing to give a confident town read on my own.

okay. this actually does make sense and is a good answer. i’m struggling with the same thing. his posts aren’t bad but they’re also not good, and i’m similarly left wondering if that’s AI or just due to him being worn out

your point that people are often suspicious of him for bad reasons is valid but doesn’t really resonate with me personally because when we were town together in SF3 i was never suspicious of him. i think he did get suspicion thrown at him early on that game but i could never make myself see him as anything but a villager and he remained my strongest tr along with spf right up to the end. i felt similarly about him in the finals, though i obviously had the benefit of tmi that game. but even still, none if the accusations levied at him throughout the game ever made any sense to me. he seemed unimpeachably towny to me and i think it’s because he has a process that i do resonate with. in sf3 he remarked that he felt he saw the game through the same lens as me and i felt that too. this game it hasn’t clicked like that yet for me. i still feel something is missing

anyway, thank you for the response. it’s helpful

I read through Alison's ISO, and I spent awhile thinking about it.

There are posts in there that I liked, but most of those have been early game. A lot of their posts though, I've been feeling neither too particularly towny or scummy.

However, I get the feeling that if Alison does have a playstyle or thought process very similar to me then if she's scum....all she's doing just making points and that's it.

Or something. I'm not entirely sure. I haven't read any of their scum games.

Either way, I wouldn't feel too comfortable going forward if it wasn't Alison that was executed next. I just need to know if they're town or mafia.

[VOTE: MartinGG99] aubergine (Because I'm not going to be the doc save lol, and even if town agreed with me getting it I would think you all are insane)

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine


I mean, think about it. If she's scum and her plan is to discredit (or scum-paint) as much people as possible (like Thunal, Sloonei, JJJ, etc at times) then she's done a decent or good job of it at times. Like trying to prevent some sort of town-core from forming.

And while I can completely understand if she's town, I think if she's scum it may be too dangerous to leave her alive beyond D2. As to whether she has spewed or anti-spewed if scum, I'm not sure but I think she would've made it difficult to know.

i don’t follow this at all. it sounds like you’re more just saying you want to eliminate her for information/because it will help you going forward to know her alignment. but why is she mafia? also your point that she’s gone after a lot of people isn’t really true. she’s really only ever hard pushed thun and sloonei. she clearly is not trying to scum read as many people as possible. and what do you mean, “all she’s doing is making points”? what is bad about that?

this whole post is very confusing. i have no idea what you’re trying to say

I read through Alison's ISO, and I spent awhile thinking about it.

There are posts in there that I liked, but most of those have been early game. A lot of their posts though, I've been feeling neither too particularly towny or scummy.

However, I get the feeling that if Alison does have a playstyle or thought process very similar to me then if she's scum....all she's doing just making points and that's it.

Or something. I'm not entirely sure. I haven't read any of their scum games.

Either way, I wouldn't feel too comfortable going forward if it wasn't Alison that was executed next. I just need to know if they're town or mafia.

[VOTE: MartinGG99] aubergine (Because I'm not going to be the doc save lol, and even if town agreed with me getting it I would think you all are insane)

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine


I mean, think about it. If she's scum and her plan is to discredit (or scum-paint) as much people as possible (like Thunal, Sloonei, JJJ, etc at times) then she's done a decent or good job of it at times. Like trying to prevent some sort of town-core from forming.

And while I can completely understand if she's town, I think if she's scum it may be too dangerous to leave her alive beyond D2. As to whether she has spewed or anti-spewed if scum, I'm not sure but I think she would've made it difficult to know.

That makes some sense - I was struggling to reason what the benefit would be to scum!Alison to keep pushing me this much. She didn't push me anywhere near this much when I was wolf and she was SK. But wanting to keep me and Sloonei out of the towncore would be beneficial if she was scum (especially if Sloonei is town).

how does that make sense? alison has suspects. her suspects are you and sloonei. why is her having two suspects scummy? like, obviously regardless of her alignment she doesn’t want her suspects to be in the town core. that’s the literal definition of a suspect. how is it any different from you or anyone else who has suspects? couldn’t you say that sloonei is trying to keep alison out of the town core by suspecting her? or you are? or jay is? because that makes as much sense to me as what you say here (read: zero)

like, i think you’re confbiasing to fit what you want your reads to be. this argument that martin is making about why alison is scum is not good. your argument about why sloonei is town is not good. they just aren’t valid arguments. that doesn’t mean the reads are wrong necessarily but please try to consider if the arguments themselves actually make any sense

Page 24

Some quotes may be trimmed.

When I consider universes where Alison is town, process of elimination leads me to some uninspired places, where I feel like I have to default to the most generic suspicions like Long Con and/or Nanook.

I hope in the future at some point you will realize I had vaguely the same feeling or realization.

Especially since I have to count myself as a miselimination in most people's PoE's. I just don't think there were many wolves in the D1 PoE's...they would all have to playing a bit similarly which goes against the idea that they would be distancing a bit. Especially since Carotenoid was town and one of my D1 tinfoils (Nova) was night-killed. It just looks all...."wrong" to me or something. This isn't to say there isn't a single wolf in the generic suspicions, just maybe at most 1 or 2.

Which is partially why I've been looking/tinfoiling outside of the current conflicts.

I feel the same way. I got a strong sense that wolves were happy with the D1 consensus since nobody tried to change it. Hally, tutuu, and maybe even Nutella might be deepwolves at this point (I mostly townread Nutella based on mindmelds/having the same takes but that's not strongly town indicative). This is also one of the reasons why I think Sloonei is more likely town than not at this point.

gth, who do you think is the most likely to be "deep scum" in the names that u listed in this post? i find it curious that youre throwing out names of universally tr players that you suspect could have a mafia, but i dont particularly see you exploring today to figure out which one of them could be scum

I feel like eliminating in the non universally TRed people is more strategic for today since it gives more info - and I don't think I could successfully case and push for an elim on any of the players I mentioned since my reasons to suspect them are admittedly thin. It's more "could be scum" and for Hally, it's "not out of their scum range." Hally is the most likely out of the three names I have since they have some small things in their play I found suspicious - their complete 180 on Carotte when they got to the grasslands, even though well explained, I could easily see scum motivation for. They're not posting the same way I'm used to seeing from them, meaning that they're not posting as much and they're not as pushy as I've seen them as either alignment. They're blending in which I find unusual for them but it could be because they have less time to play because of their job. Also they didn't pay attention to my deepwolf suspicion on them which I feel scum!Hally is more likely to do than town!Hally. Hally I have some reasons for. Tutuu and Nutella are more "I don't TR them as strongly as the other townread people."

what is the scum motivation for 180ing on carotte? like, actually. what did that get me if im mafia?

also i don’t really feel im blending in. im posting what i can with the time i have. i thought i was quite pushy with carotte and she ended up being town. now it’s harder to find concrete scum reads. also your point about my number of posts is kinda silly. most of my posts are multiquote catch ups so that i can be sure i save posts for real timing. if you were to break up my multiquotes into individual posts, my post count would be higher. would that make me more likely town? like, why does this matter to you?

also the reason why i haven’t addressed your tinfoil on me is because there’s nothing to address. atm it’s just “hally isn’t out of their scum range.” that’s not a substantive suspicion that i can respond to. i did respond in detail to your point about my 180 on carotte though, so it’s wrong to say i’ve ignored your suspicion on me. everything else has just been paranoia that’s not grounded in anything other than your fear of my scum game. it’s the same thing every game and i’m more than used to it by now, so it’s not something i actually care about, sorry

i'm admittedly feeling a little bit stressed because i most likely have to vote/out my final reads tonight (roughly about 12ish hours before the deadline), and i feel like i don't have the time to delve into as many players as i would like.

setting that aside, my top suspicions as of right now are sloonei/martin/alison, in that order, and i'm likely going to end up with a vote (or a ghost vote) on one of them

out of the three names i listed in that post, does anybody strongly object to any of them being voted?

I would very much prefer that Alison is eliminated before me.

Sloonei I feel is probably town, but if you feel that's they're scum right now then I suppose I can't convince you since I don't know them personally as a player. (That and I only have 6 games of experience)

please tell me in as much detail as you can why sloonei is town

[JaggedJimmyJay]

More the latter.

As I sit back and roast on the game, I trend toward an Alison vote again. I respect her efforts to talk with me, and I don't think her posts are terrible or anything -- but my holistic vision of the game leads me to her in a mafia chair. I am a bit piqued recently too by what I perceive as awkward challenges she has given me, like it's almost competitive. If you're going to get me chopped you're going to have to do better than that. That doesn't strike me as the right mindset.

why is it a scummy mindset though?

If she's town she's literally encouraging me to try harder to kill her. If she read me as mafia that might make more sense to me, because she'd think I am an opportunist trying to gain an advantage -- so she can issue that challenge to indicate my bogus suspicions aren't compelling.

But she town reads me so

[staypositivefriend]

fwiw the more that i think about my reads the more that i lean on pursuing a martin chop. i've been underwhelmed/actively suspicious of his content today, and the issues that i had with him on day one have only gotten worse today. i'm not completely committed to this but i wanted to put it out there

[Hally]

next page

i'm admittedly feeling a little bit stressed because i most likely have to vote/out my final reads tonight (roughly about 12ish hours before the deadline), and i feel like i don't have the time to delve into as many players as i would like.

setting that aside, my top suspicions as of right now are sloonei/martin/alison, in that order, and i'm likely going to end up with a vote (or a ghost vote) on one of them

out of the three names i listed in that post, does anybody strongly object to any of them being voted?

I would very much prefer that Alison is eliminated before me.

Sloonei I feel is probably town, but if you feel that's they're scum right now then I suppose I can't convince you since I don't know them personally as a player. (That and I only have 6 games of experience)

does alison defending you incredibly hard even when her life is on the line change your perception of her at all? how confident do u feel about her being mafia?

i feel you on sloonei. it just feels like there’s something missing here. in champs i felt his thoughts were so fluid but simultaneously like i could understand every single step of his thought process and how one thing led to the next. his solving had such a clarity to it that was impossible not to tr and which resonated with me deeply, and i can’t say that i’ve felt that here. i don’t know if i can say he’s scummy in a level 1 sense but it’s pretty clear to me that he’s not fully “in his zone” so to speak, and if i try to think of how he’d feel as mafia, i imagine it would be like that

can you talk more about martin? specifically, can you cite examples of scum reads he’s given that feel off or dishonest to you? martin has been on a consistent trend down for me in my reads but i don’t really have a reason other than that i feel his presence is lacking and like i have no idea what his reads are or where he’s trying to take the game. but idk if that’s just because he’s new-ish. but anyway, i’m curious to hear you expand on your concerns there

that is an excellent summation of my issues with sloonei in this game - i do not feel as though he is actively scumtelling, but i do feel that he is out of his element to the extent that it concerns me that he is mafia who is having trouble integrate themselves into the game. i felt the same way on d1 and ive been waiting to see if there would be a moment where i really felt like sloonei "integrated" himself and shone through, but that hasn't happened yet

as for martin, the biggest issue that i've taken with him is his initial "tinfoil" on tutuu. when martin saw that tutuu had a relatively inconsistent approach to alison, i felt like he pounced to make tutuu look bad instead of questioning & interrogating her like i would expect him to. martin's play has been very measured and analytical, and the way that he jumped to frame what is (imo) a personality tell from tutuu as some kind of scumtell came across as opportunistic to me, pairing that w/the fact that he hasn't done much with his read on tutuu since that point. i explained it a little more succinctly here:

i can't really articulate why, but martin's push on tutuu from the post i just quoted-#1014 sort of gives me bad vibes

it might be the contrast btwn martin's reasoning for townreading thunal and martin's reasoning for scumreading tutuu. i thought martin's reasoning for townreading thunal at the start of the game was thoughtful and contrasted against this idea of what he would expect mafia to be doing. but his scumread on tutuu actually feels the opposite - martin is describing why tutuu's reads are somewhat inconsistent and not explaining why that inconsistency makes tutuu mafia. it seems pretty clear from tutuu's playstyle that she would bounce around reads and change her mind as either alignment - and i dont love that martin jumped immediately to "tinfoiling" tutuu over this discrepancy instead of questioning her about it and figuring out if it was coming from a genuine place

additionally, i do think his suspicion of alison could be coming from a legitimate place - but the framing that he uses to push for the alison chop really rubs me the wrong way. for example, in this post:

I read through Alison's ISO, and I spent awhile thinking about it.

There are posts in there that I liked, but most of those have been early game. A lot of their posts though, I've been feeling neither too particularly towny or scummy.

However, I get the feeling that if Alison does have a playstyle or thought process very similar to me then if she's scum....all she's doing just making points and that's it.

Or something. I'm not entirely sure. I haven't read any of their scum games.

Either way, I wouldn't feel too comfortable going forward if it wasn't Alison that was executed next. I just need to know if they're town or mafia.

[VOTE: MartinGG99] aubergine (Because I'm not going to be the doc save lol, and even if town agreed with me getting it I would think you all are insane)

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine


I mean, think about it. If she's scum and her plan is to discredit (or scum-paint) as much people as possible (like Thunal, Sloonei, JJJ, etc at times) then she's done a decent or good job of it at times. Like trying to prevent some sort of town-core from forming.

And while I can completely understand if she's town, I think if she's scum it may be too dangerous to leave her alive beyond D2. As to whether she has spewed or anti-spewed if scum, I'm not sure but I think she would've made it difficult to know.

he frames the main reason for why we should chop alison to be to "find out" if alison is town or mafia - and not because alison is actually suspicious. i also am concerned by the fact that alison's strong defense of martin does not seem to be influencing martin's perception of alison, or making him doubt himself. i feel like he's both hedging on alison's alignment while pushing for her chop at the same time

none of this definitely makes martin mafia, but it's enough to make me concerned that he is not solving with a genuine mindset

lol, i just quoted that post from martin and raised the same issue. the point that he doesn’t seem to be factoring in alison hard defending him into his read on her is also valid

i feel like martin is probably just mafia. like, that feels weird to say because it makes me sound more confident than i am, but when i look at what a potential mafia team could look like assuming my hard tr’s are correct, martin fits in pretty nicely. i’m particularly increasingly concerned by how he appears to be going out of his way to tr sloonei for no discernible reason that i can see + now voting alison who is going to be sloonei’s counterwagon this day by the look of it. i know it’s kinda level 1 but im wondering if the team is just sloonei/martin/+1 and martin is too inexperienced to be less obvious about it. idk

[nutella]

I'd be down for a martin chop. I think sloonei is still my #1 preference, but I'd be more inclined to pivot to martin than to alison.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Good opportunity for [mention]Alison[/mention] to share every reason why Martin is town.

[Hally]

i apologize but i cannot understand this at all. could i trouble you to type out a list?

@Hally

I'll give you a more updated list, in a more proper or informative format. My thoughts were kinda all spread-out earlier but now I feel a fair bit more cohesive after reading some ISO's.

Towniest to Scummiest:

Thunal33
Tutuu
Staypositivefriend
JaggedJimmyJay
Sloonei
Hally
Long Con
Nanook
Alison

Green = Mostly Confident in this position.
Yellow = Unsure
Red = I've put not much effort into this read.

This is my tentative reads list for now. Might change in the future.

sorry to keep bugging you but can you add like one line of reasoning for each of them?

General frustration with the state of the game:

Almost everything is nebulous. I barely have strong town reads beyond tutuu and SPF. I might be ready to include Hally in that group. Otherwise I have infuriating "leans", the kinds of reads that I rail against in every philosophy of Mafia thread, and just about zero confidence in anything. nutella is a town lean. Martin and Thunal seem town but there's a case to be made against them. Sloonei is a billowing mass of fog hovering over my head. Nanook and Long Con are the silence between tracks on your favorite studio album. Alison seems suspicious but could easily be town anyway.

We've got to find a way to break out of this reads malaise. I am getting the vibe that others are experiencing something similar, so I say "we". I'm kind of trying to force the issue with stuff like the blind interactions, and it still doesn't feel like the game state is progressing. Maybe another flip will help. We'd better hope so, or this game is in trouble. I don't blame anyone for this, and I don't particularly know how we've ended up in this position. But it needs to change.

i feel this deeply and am tempted to just lock jay town for it because it would be downright scary if he were able to crystallize my feelings about the gamestate so well as mafia

[Hally]

BUN TO HEAD GO

MARTINGG99
NUTELLA
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME

mafia
town
town

HALLY
TUTUU
SLOONEI
ALISON

terrible at mafia
town
mafia
town (this one is hard)

STAYPOSITIVEFRIEND
JAGGEDJIMMYJAY
THUNAL33
LONG CON

gay (and town)
town
town
town

i only have two mafias so i guess i failed lol

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

Pretty sure jay can take the temperature of a thread regardless of his alignment

[Hally]

he frames the main reason for why we should chop alison to be to "find out" if alison is town or mafia - and not because alison is actually suspicious. i also am concerned by the fact that alison's strong defense of martin does not seem to be influencing martin's perception of alison, or making him doubt himself. i feel like he's both hedging on alison's alignment while pushing for her chop at the same time

none of this definitely makes martin mafia, but it's enough to make me concerned that he is not solving with a genuine mindset

I'm getting similar feelings about martin. His angle toward chopping alison feels disingenuous somehow. I'm also getting weird vibes from the frequency with which he's cited the fact that he's a pretty new player. Like I got it the first time, no need to keep pointing that out, it's starting to seem like an odd defense.

yes

[Hally]

More the latter.

As I sit back and roast on the game, I trend toward an Alison vote again. I respect her efforts to talk with me, and I don't think her posts are terrible or anything -- but my holistic vision of the game leads me to her in a mafia chair. I am a bit piqued recently too by what I perceive as awkward challenges she has given me, like it's almost competitive. If you're going to get me chopped you're going to have to do better than that. That doesn't strike me as the right mindset.

why is it a scummy mindset though?

If she's town she's literally encouraging me to try harder to kill her. If she read me as mafia that might make more sense to me, because she'd think I am an opportunist trying to gain an advantage -- so she can issue that challenge to indicate my bogus suspicions aren't compelling.

But she town reads me so

i feel like this isn’t exactly what she was saying but i don’t actually remember

[Hally]

fwiw the more that i think about my reads the more that i lean on pursuing a martin chop. i've been underwhelmed/actively suspicious of his content today, and the issues that i had with him on day one have only gotten worse today. i'm not completely committed to this but i wanted to put it out there

did you really post this a minute before i just said the same exact thing. jesus christ lol

[staypositivefriend]

@everyone - here's a question that might not make sense but that i consider important to the gamestate right now:

how confident do you feel about your reads right now? how much faith do you have that your assessment of the gamestate is correct?

[Hally]

i swear to god spf. it will never stop being scary

[staypositivefriend]

fwiw the more that i think about my reads the more that i lean on pursuing a martin chop. i've been underwhelmed/actively suspicious of his content today, and the issues that i had with him on day one have only gotten worse today. i'm not completely committed to this but i wanted to put it out there

did you really post this a minute before i just said the same exact thing. jesus christ lol

cant believe ur fake-mindmelding with me as mafia again (

[staypositivefriend]

actually that's hilarious because there is literally no way you could have written that post about martin in response to me saying that martin is my top suspicion - it was an conclusion that we both reached organically within the same minute of each other

im going to be shocked if youre scum lmfao

[Hally]

@everyone - here's a question that might not make sense but that i consider important to the gamestate right now:

how confident do you feel about your reads right now? how much faith do you have that your assessment of the gamestate is correct?

not that confident? but also confident in the sense that i seem to be at a very similar place rn as you, nut and jay. which is to say, we all seem not confident but are trending towards the same reads in what appears to be an organic way. that means something, or at least i think it does lol

[Hally]

actually that's hilarious because there is literally no way you could have written that post about martin in response to me saying that martin is my top suspicion - it was an conclusion that we both reached organically within the same minute of each other

im going to be shocked if youre scum lmfao

even i can’t fake that kind of mindmeld

[Hally]

if i had any tinfoil whatsoever about spf, i can safely say it’s dead lol

[Hally]

[mention]Sloonei[/mention] what is lc’s alignment?

[nutella]

i only have two mafias so i guess i failed lol

same as mine tho high five

[Hally]

i only have two mafias so i guess i failed lol

same as mine tho high five

[Hally]

@Sloonei what is lc’s alignment?

same question to [mention]Long Con[/mention] actually - sloonei is [fill in the blank]

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I am getting a similar vibe about folks trying to sort Alison as some others have gotten about me trying to sort Sloonei:

Ready and able to poke holes in the case against her, but still can't call her town with any conviction. This isn't an accusation, but rather something to explore for yourselves. I dunno either.

[Hally]

[mention]Sloonei[/mention] i already asked you for games where you were suspected early as scum. can you link me one or two games where you feel you played well as scum? i’m just trying to get a sense of what your scum range is like

[Hally]

I am getting a similar vibe about folks trying to sort Alison as some others have gotten about me trying to sort Sloonei:

Ready and able to poke holes in the case against her, but still can't call her town with any conviction. This isn't an accusation, but rather something to explore for yourselves. I dunno either.

this is... very fair actually. i certainly may be guilty of it

[Hally]

i guess if there is a distinction to made between the two it would be that i expect you to have an amazing read on sloonei whereas i don’t expect myself to read alison particularly well. but that’s not really fair to you. you’re allowed to struggle reading sloonei

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

@everyone - here's a question that might not make sense but that i consider important to the gamestate right now:

how confident do you feel about your reads right now? how much faith do you have that your assessment of the gamestate is correct?

88+ % in my reads. I’m only putting confident reads into the thread this game.

[Sloonei]

@Sloonei tell me about Nanook.

I have not taken note of anything he’s done this game. That should probably be a concern. I’ll try to find time to fix that later.

@Sloonei - let's say that we live in a world where alison is town; where do you go next? who do u start fos'ing?

Jay already asked me this. Alison is not locked in as a scum read for me and I would continue to assess the game the same as I am now, with probably a bit more urgency if she were to flip town. LC is probably my next suspect right now. I think Thunal might be town.

My predominant concern about Alison's Day 1 is that it feels kind of flat. She made her reads and stated them clearly, but felt a bit static and a bit uninspired, for lack of a better word. Take this post, which I previously noted as something I felt good about, or at least did not disagree with:

Okay. Sloonei just used a "post icon" on this post.

Can I town-read him for it?

That was an accidental misclick. I’d never do something like that for game-related purposes.
Why would you town read me for that?

@Alison evidently feels that I have not engaged with her in any meaningful way. I object, but she is right to point out that we've not had any extended exchanges. Direct interaction is always the best way to read people.
So, Alison, if there's anyone in this game that we are not talking about enough, who would it be? Why?

I'm leaving for work relatively soon so I won't be able to carry on a conversation for very long at present, but we can at least get the ball rolling.

I kinda feel we're talking about everyone enough in the sense that the people who are not talked about much (nutella, nanook, SPF) are all people I don't have much worries about. I certainly don't feel that there's scum lurking under the radar or anything - everyone's being put under some amount of scrutiny except for those 3, and I do townread them.

Do you feel you've made yourself obvious town to JJJ?

Why do you townread nanook? Who else do you townread that is receiving suspicion?

I have been town in all of my posts and I think Jay should see that. I think he does see it, to be fair, but what he’s also seeing is some slouching on my part. Champs was an exhausting experience and I signed up for this game to get back into playing mafia as a part-time rather than full-time endeavor. I don’t expect myself to appear as the shining beacon of towniness I usually am, but I should at least be a town nightlight or something.

@Sloonei what is lc’s alignment?

GTH mafia

[Sloonei]

@everyone - here's a question that might not make sense but that i consider important to the gamestate right now:

how confident do you feel about your reads right now? how much faith do you have that your assessment of the gamestate is correct?

88+ % in my reads. I’m only putting confident reads into the thread this game.

Nanook what is my alignment?

[Long Con]

@Sloonei what is lc’s alignment?

same question to @Long Con actually - sloonei is [fill in the blank]

Sloonei is mafia. In the early game, as I said, I don't have a strong grasp on why people are Town reading or scum reading others, a lot of the time. As a result, my reads in the early game are often informed by players who excel in the early game. Sloonei is a name I've seen brought up probably more than anyone else as scum, to the point that it was said Carotte being town locks Sloonei as scum.

I would much rather give an answer after I have looked over his posts, which I can do when I'm done with Nutella.

[Long Con]

I also don't like his insistence that I am scum. I don't think he is considering the alternative in the slightest.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Spoiler: show

I'm going to try to synthesize these charts into a coherent view of the game. I have never tried this before, so I make no promises about the veracity of what I am doing.

Given the bun to head reads, I think we can call the "collective" POE pool this group:

Sloonei, Alison, Long Con, Nanook, Martin

nutella, Hally, tutuu, SPF, and Thunal near-consensus town -- Hally and Thunal as outlier suspects, perhaps myself as well pending Nanook's gripes

I will then take that POE pool and see what teams work per my blind interactions chart:

Sloonei - Alison - Long Con - broken by Sloonei/Alison
Sloonei - Alison - Nanook - broken by Sloonei/Alison
Sloonei - Alison - Martin - broken by Sloonei/Alison
Sloonei - Long Con - Nanook - open
Sloonei - Long Con - Martin - open
Sloonei - Nanook - Martin - open
Alison - Long Con - Nanook - open
Alison - Long Con - Martin - open
Alison - Nanook - Martin - open
Long Con - Nanook - Martin - open

That didn't do shit to help. The Alison/Martin interaction might be very important though to help kill more of these. I thought they seemed compatible but with at least one moment making me doubt that. How do folks feel about those two as possible mafia teammates?

[Hally]

i’m really vibing with nut’s thoughts on alison. when i look at the game as a whole, i don’t feel i can remove her from my poe but gth i still feel she’s town

overall, my current sorting is not really much different than it was when i started this day. thun has maybe moved down a little. but even though i disagree with the arguments she’s pushing i don’t really doubt she believes in them. it’s also possible i’m getting fooled by nook. i just... kinda doubt all three mafia are in my poe atm

town:
spf
tutuu
nut
jay

town lean:
nook
thun

poe:
martin
sloonei
lc
alison

[Sloonei]

@Sloonei what is lc’s alignment?

same question to @Long Con actually - sloonei is [fill in the blank]

Sloonei is mafia. In the early game, as I said, I don't have a strong grasp on why people are Town reading or scum reading others, a lot of the time. As a result, my reads in the early game are often informed by players who excel in the early game. Sloonei is a name I've seen brought up probably more than anyone else as scum, to the point that it was said Carotte being town locks Sloonei as scum.

I would much rather give an answer after I have looked over his posts, which I can do when I'm done with Nutella.

So this is literally just “Sloonei is mafia because everyone else says so”?

[nutella]

I would lean toward dissociating Martin and Alison until further notice. I think it's fairly likely we're in one of the Sloonei-Martin worlds, but I wouldn't be too surprised if the third was someone deeper than LC/Nanook.