Grasslands [Game Thread]

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

also, i'm referring to a "couple of posts later" as in the posts in your ISO and not your posts in real-time. it's fine for your read to develop, but i didn't see a clear progression for how you townread sloonei in the beginning and then became more reluctant toward him early on. why did you initially want him to have the gun?

“A couple posts later” implies that not much time had passed, when in fact, over 36 hours had gone by.

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

also, i'm referring to a "couple of posts later" as in the posts in your ISO and not your posts in real-time. it's fine for your read to develop, but i didn't see a clear progression for how you townread sloonei in the beginning and then became more reluctant toward him early on. why did you initially want him to have the gun?

My early progression is kinda hard to read // isn't exactly documented because I was over-thinking things behind the scenes.

I also said before that from where I come from scum usually isn't caught on the first day.

I was also having some slight troubles understanding the issue over Sloonei in very early D1, and so I just thought it was some awkward miscommunication or misunderstanding that I couldn't reliably get AI stuff from.

I.....what? I don't recall ever thinking that I wanted to give Sloonei the gun.

It was directed at me

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

I ignored the last part of your question because I’ve already answered it

[MartinGG99]

It was directed at me

Oh that makes sense, I misunderstood.

[Thunal33]

also, i'm referring to a "couple of posts later" as in the posts in your ISO and not your posts in real-time. it's fine for your read to develop, but i didn't see a clear progression for how you townread sloonei in the beginning and then became more reluctant toward him early on. why did you initially want him to have the gun?

My early progression is kinda hard to read // isn't exactly documented because I was over-thinking things behind the scenes.

I also said before that from where I come from scum usually isn't caught on the first day.

I was also having some slight troubles understanding the issue over Sloonei in very early D1, and so I just thought it was some awkward miscommunication or misunderstanding that I couldn't reliably get AI stuff from.

I.....what? I don't recall ever thinking that I wanted to give Sloonei the gun.

None of this would necessarily be dishonest if Martin were scum btw. Scum can overthink, I believe that scum isn't usually caught D1 on SC2 and that's irrelevant to alignment, and scum can also have trouble understanding the suspicion on Sloonei. I don't remember you thinking that you wanted to give Sloonei the gun though.

[Thunal33]

Also, to anyone but especially [mention]nutella[/mention] since she has the most experience with players here, how much of a busser is Nanook?

[nutella]

mindmeld thunal -- my reaction reading that post is that he's saying things that are completely honest (in the way he talked about earlier) but still likely from a scum pov.

[nutella]

nanook does bus yeah but I think the specifics of the LC vote are not so likely to be a bus from him? idk

[staypositivefriend]

also, i'm referring to a "couple of posts later" as in the posts in your ISO and not your posts in real-time. it's fine for your read to develop, but i didn't see a clear progression for how you townread sloonei in the beginning and then became more reluctant toward him early on. why did you initially want him to have the gun?

“A couple posts later” implies that not much time had passed, when in fact, over 36 hours had gone by.

the quote youre referencing is:

"it's interesting that nanook posits that one of jay/sloonei is town depending on their reads develop on each other on viewtopic.php?f=273&t=1958&p=676599#p676599 - but he suggested that sloonei should be given the gun just a couple of posts earlier."

when im talking about a "couple of posts earlier", it's clear that the gripe is not the amount of time that passed between your posts, but the lack of thought process or visible progression in your posts. the time does not matter

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

How could the time not matter

In what way is a read changing over 36 hours surprising

[Hally]

Not having a good townread on Sloonei yet also not wanting him elimed isn't a great look for Martin. That's exactly what I would expect from a read from Sloonei's teammate, and the TWTBAW argument is an easy one for a teammate to make.

Sigh.

I'm being attacked just because how I interacted with 2 people and that they just happened to be scum -_-

Not like it'll change anything but tbh as a townie I'm not supposed to be aware of how I interact with people will be perceived in the future, and maybe that's why it looks bad all-around.

Thankfully we don't have to do a "martin is scum based on interaction" parade after catching the 3rd scum because the game would've ended by then....after I've flipped green atp probably.

Sorry, but this explanation feels like a clone of the one I made in my last scum game. "It's completely outside my control that my interactions with the flipped scum look bad, it's not my fault!" was exactly the argument I made, with some AtE sprinkled in as well. You still have most of a phase to convince me you're town, I'm not locked in on you being scum by any means.

to be fair, you were converted N1 so you were actually being honest that your D1 interactions looking bad wasn’t wasn’t your fault

[staypositivefriend]

How could the time not matter

In what way is a read changing over 36 hours surprising

the time is not relevant because the issue is that the read changed between a couple of your posts with no visible progression

the read is not the problem, the difficulty in seeing how you got from point A to point B is

[Hally]

i don’t really get martin’s defense though

“im being attacked because i just happened to have bad interactions with both flipped scum” ...yes? should we not be suspicious of that lol

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

How could the time not matter

In what way is a read changing over 36 hours surprising

the time is not relevant because the issue is that the read changed between a couple of your posts with no visible progression

the read is not the problem, the difficulty in seeing how you got from point A to point B is

Yes! Two posts made 36 hours apart! The time is incredibly relevant, and ignoring it is both stupid and incredibly nitpicky!

[Hally]

[mention]MartinGG99[/mention] so you think the last scum is tutuu or nook? instead of making appeals it would be more helpful if you would case them and convince us they make more sense as the +1 in a lc/sloonei/+1 team than you

[staypositivefriend]

How could the time not matter

In what way is a read changing over 36 hours surprising

the time is not relevant because the issue is that the read changed between a couple of your posts with no visible progression

the read is not the problem, the difficulty in seeing how you got from point A to point B is

Yes! Two posts made 36 hours apart! The time is incredibly relevant, and ignoring it is both stupid and incredibly nitpicky!

my gripe with you is that you changed your read on sloonei in a very significant way with no visible progression, explanation, or thought process for how you changed the read

you saying: "time passed inbetween me townreading sloonei and scumreading sloonei" is not an explanation for how your read developed. i don't understand how you're missing the point

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

How could the time not matter

In what way is a read changing over 36 hours surprising

the time is not relevant because the issue is that the read changed between a couple of your posts with no visible progression

the read is not the problem, the difficulty in seeing how you got from point A to point B is

Yes! Two posts made 36 hours apart! The time is incredibly relevant, and ignoring it is both stupid and incredibly nitpicky!

my gripe with you is that you changed your read on sloonei in a very significant way with no visible progression, explanation, or thought process for how you changed the read

you saying: "time passed inbetween me townreading sloonei and scumreading sloonei" is not an explanation for how your read developed. i don't understand how you're missing the point

Yes it is! Time passed, stuff happened, I updated my read

[Hally]

martin’s bad “let’s info chop alison” post/vote came when alison was the counterwagon to sloonei i think. also i remember he had so many weird posts trying to tr sloonei for adding post icons and things like that. i really feel he was bending over backwards D2 to find reasons to not eliminate sloonei

[MartinGG99]

“im being attacked because i just happened to have bad interactions with both flipped scum” ...yes? should we not be suspicious of that lol

I'm just venting in somewhat disappointment in myself as town, because unlike everyone else alive here, only I know my own green alignment with 100% certainty.

[staypositivefriend]

How could the time not matter

In what way is a read changing over 36 hours surprising

the time is not relevant because the issue is that the read changed between a couple of your posts with no visible progression

the read is not the problem, the difficulty in seeing how you got from point A to point B is

Yes! Two posts made 36 hours apart! The time is incredibly relevant, and ignoring it is both stupid and incredibly nitpicky!

my gripe with you is that you changed your read on sloonei in a very significant way with no visible progression, explanation, or thought process for how you changed the read

you saying: "time passed inbetween me townreading sloonei and scumreading sloonei" is not an explanation for how your read developed. i don't understand how you're missing the point

Yes it is! Time passed, stuff happened, I updated my read

if you came back 24 hours from now and outed a hard scumread on hally, then i would not see "time has passed" as an acceptable explanation for how your read on hally changed. the same principle applies to your read on sloonei. i am trying to understand the specific reasons why your read on sloonei changed, and not just a specific factor that contributed to the change

[MartinGG99]

@MartinGG99 so you think the last scum is tutuu or nook? instead of making appeals it would be more helpful if you would case them and convince us they make more sense as the +1 in a lc/sloonei/+1 team than you

It doesn't really matter in the end tbh.

We have enough eliminations and miseliminations to go through Martin/Nook/Tutuu.

Unless you're still somehow paranoid that, if not me, it still must be someone outside of that grouping?

[nutella]

“im being attacked because i just happened to have bad interactions with both flipped scum” ...yes? should we not be suspicious of that lol

I'm just venting in somewhat disappointment in myself as town, because unlike everyone else alive here, only I know my own green alignment with 100% certainty.

False. If you are town, there is one other person alive here who knows that with 100% certainty. And you should be doing your darndest to figure out who that person is.

[Hally]

“im being attacked because i just happened to have bad interactions with both flipped scum” ...yes? should we not be suspicious of that lol

I'm just venting in somewhat disappointment in myself as town, because unlike everyone else alive here, only I know my own green alignment with 100% certainty.

i don’t believe you

[Hally]

@MartinGG99 so you think the last scum is tutuu or nook? instead of making appeals it would be more helpful if you would case them and convince us they make more sense as the +1 in a lc/sloonei/+1 team than you

It doesn't really matter in the end tbh.

We have enough eliminations and miseliminations to go through Martin/Nook/Tutuu.

Unless you're still somehow paranoid that, if not me, it still must be someone outside of that grouping?

it does matter. are you not paranoid at all that it could be someone else? i mean, you know 1/3 of that poe is wrong if you’re town. i would like to see you put in some work to demonstrate you’re confident that the last mafia is in the other 2/3

[nutella]

I honestly think martin has quasi-perspectiveslipped several times and like his principle of mostly-honesty combined with admitting that he's in the poe is basically an admission of guilt

[MartinGG99]

for adding post icons

Huh. I swore I answered this before in my ISO, but I can't find it.

Anyways, I believe I responded to sloonei at one point that I was asking out-loud if people would TR for that sort of thing.

[nutella]

and the thing i just pointed out to him in the previous post is like.... maybe an actual slip because like.... he should realize that lol

[MartinGG99]

“im being attacked because i just happened to have bad interactions with both flipped scum” ...yes? should we not be suspicious of that lol

I'm just venting in somewhat disappointment in myself as town, because unlike everyone else alive here, only I know my own green alignment with 100% certainty.

i don’t believe you

Well, obviously.

Not many people do right now.

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

How could the time not matter

In what way is a read changing over 36 hours surprising

the time is not relevant because the issue is that the read changed between a couple of your posts with no visible progression

the read is not the problem, the difficulty in seeing how you got from point A to point B is

Yes! Two posts made 36 hours apart! The time is incredibly relevant, and ignoring it is both stupid and incredibly nitpicky!

my gripe with you is that you changed your read on sloonei in a very significant way with no visible progression, explanation, or thought process for how you changed the read

you saying: "time passed inbetween me townreading sloonei and scumreading sloonei" is not an explanation for how your read developed. i don't understand how you're missing the point

Yes it is! Time passed, stuff happened, I updated my read

if you came back 24 hours from now and outed a hard scumread on hally, then i would not see "time has passed" as an acceptable explanation for how your read on hally changed. the same principle applies to your read on sloonei. i am trying to understand the specific reasons why your read on sloonei changed, and not just a specific factor that contributed to the change

I caught up, stuff happened. Jay was in thread. That’s literally all I have to say about it.

I also don’t think I was SRing sloonei in the post you’re referencing?

[MartinGG99]

False. If you are town, there is one other person alive here who knows that with 100% certainty. And you should be doing your darndest to figure out who that person is.

Disagree. I'll die on the idea that everyone outside of Martin/Tutuu/Nanook is 100% town, and if I'm wrong on that then this is a good game to learn on that.

[Thunal33]

@MartinGG99 so you think the last scum is tutuu or nook? instead of making appeals it would be more helpful if you would case them and convince us they make more sense as the +1 in a lc/sloonei/+1 team than you

It doesn't really matter in the end tbh.

We have enough eliminations and miseliminations to go through Martin/Nook/Tutuu.

Unless you're still somehow paranoid that, if not me, it still must be someone outside of that grouping?

Okay, so even if you are town it's not bad that we eliminate you since we still have room to eliminate your suspects afterwards and we're heading in that direction. It's probably best for you to case your suspects instead of fighting your elim since you're not getting out of it today. But if you're town and you give good legacy reads then you can help us win.

[MartinGG99]

I'll die on the idea that everyone outside of Martin/Tutuu/Nanook is 100% town

Obviously, I consider myself town but once again I'm arguing with people who quite clearly don't know that.

[staypositivefriend]

How could the time not matter

In what way is a read changing over 36 hours surprising

the time is not relevant because the issue is that the read changed between a couple of your posts with no visible progression

the read is not the problem, the difficulty in seeing how you got from point A to point B is

Yes! Two posts made 36 hours apart! The time is incredibly relevant, and ignoring it is both stupid and incredibly nitpicky!

my gripe with you is that you changed your read on sloonei in a very significant way with no visible progression, explanation, or thought process for how you changed the read

you saying: "time passed inbetween me townreading sloonei and scumreading sloonei" is not an explanation for how your read developed. i don't understand how you're missing the point

Yes it is! Time passed, stuff happened, I updated my read

if you came back 24 hours from now and outed a hard scumread on hally, then i would not see "time has passed" as an acceptable explanation for how your read on hally changed. the same principle applies to your read on sloonei. i am trying to understand the specific reasons why your read on sloonei changed, and not just a specific factor that contributed to the change

I caught up, stuff happened. Jay was in thread. That’s literally all I have to say about it.

I also don’t think I was SRing sloonei in the post you’re referencing?

but "stuff happened" doesnt really help me understand what ur thought process about sloonei was, and how you went from tr'ing him to being suspicious of him (iirc, you did not explicitly scumread sloonei as much as you suggested that he might be mafia)

i don't think this conversation is helping either of us, so im withdrawing from it

[Hally]

martin feels like dejected, boxed in mafia to me. i do not get the feeling from his posts that he is confident and excited that the game is solved from his pov if he just puts in the extra bit of work. he seems cornered and beaten. it reminds me of the contrast between how sheppard was the last day of the finals versus how jack was. martin is the sheppard of this game not because of experience level but because i think he knows he is beat and that reality is coming out in his posts, so all he can do is AtE and advocate his own elimination out of desperation. i don’t buy it

[Thunal33]

False. If you are town, there is one other person alive here who knows that with 100% certainty. And you should be doing your darndest to figure out who that person is.

Disagree. I'll die on the idea that everyone outside of Martin/Tutuu/Nanook is 100% town, and if I'm wrong on that then this is a good game to learn on that.

You're not putting yourself as 100% town? I'm inclined to agree with Nutella at this point that your perspective on yourself is suspicious.

[MartinGG99]

Okay, so even if you are town it's not bad that we eliminate you since we still have room to eliminate your suspects afterwards and we're heading in that direction. It's probably best for you to case your suspects instead of fighting your elim since you're not getting out of it today. But if you're town and you give good legacy reads then you can help us win.

"to case my suspects"

You like others have been wording things as if I've done jack.

All I did was try my best to prove the game is probably solved with my three suspects theory, and not only that, I have repeatedly proven that despite my theory there's 1 free mischop to use of which could be used on me or Alison (who's dead rn) if it'll kill paranoia that I'm wrong on my theory.

[tutuu]

nut that also looked like a scumslip to me lol

[nutella]

False. If you are town, there is one other person alive here who knows that with 100% certainty. And you should be doing your darndest to figure out who that person is.

Disagree. I'll die on the idea that everyone outside of Martin/Tutuu/Nanook is 100% town, and if I'm wrong on that then this is a good game to learn on that.

what do you mean disagree

the one person can be in nanook/tutuu i'm not disputing that


i'm saying that given the premise you are town, it's objective fact that someone else knows that

it's a straight up logical if p then q thing you can't disagree lol

[staypositivefriend]

martin feels like dejected, boxed in mafia to me. i do not get the feeling from his posts that he is confident and excited that the game is solved from his pov if he just puts in the extra bit of work. he seems cornered and beaten. it reminds me of the contrast between how sheppard was the last day of the finals versus how jack was. martin is the sheppard of this game not because of experience level but because i think he knows he is beat and that reality is coming out in his posts, so all he can do is AtE and advocate his own elimination out of desperation. i don’t buy it

if i could describe martin's tone in one word today, it would be "stressed". i think that it's natural to be stressed if you are being fos'd as town, but the level of stress/frustration that his posts are giving off do not really align with how confidently he feels that the game is solved and that we can just secure our victory

[tutuu]

“im being attacked because i just happened to have bad interactions with both flipped scum” ...yes? should we not be suspicious of that lol

I'm just venting in somewhat disappointment in myself as town, because unlike everyone else alive here, only I know my own green alignment with 100% certainty.

if he meant "the people present itt at this very moment" there is no need to say "alive". doesnt make sense

"alive" implies all living players (imo)

[Thunal33]

Okay, so even if you are town it's not bad that we eliminate you since we still have room to eliminate your suspects afterwards and we're heading in that direction. It's probably best for you to case your suspects instead of fighting your elim since you're not getting out of it today. But if you're town and you give good legacy reads then you can help us win.

"to case my suspects"

You like others have been wording things as if I've done jack.

All I did was try my best to prove the game is probably solved with my three suspects theory, and not only that, I have repeatedly proven that despite my theory there's 1 free mischop to use of which could be used on me or Alison (who's dead rn) if it'll kill paranoia that I'm wrong on my theory.

You're definitely putting in effort and doing things, I just think the effort you're putting in could be better directed at giving us detailed reads to work with off your flip.

[nutella]

martin feels like dejected, boxed in mafia to me. i do not get the feeling from his posts that he is confident and excited that the game is solved from his pov if he just puts in the extra bit of work. he seems cornered and beaten. it reminds me of the contrast between how sheppard was the last day of the finals versus how jack was. martin is the sheppard of this game not because of experience level but because i think he knows he is beat and that reality is coming out in his posts, so all he can do is AtE and advocate his own elimination out of desperation. i don’t buy it

yes this exactly

[MartinGG99]

I mean, seriously, the ONLY PROBLEM POSSIBLE IS IF THERES SOMEONE WHO'S SCUM OUTSIDE OF MARTIN/NANOOK/TUTUU

And I've determined that, without a doubt on my part, that the people outside of that group are 100% town.

If I'm wrong on that then I will die and probably lose the game for us.

But I am fairly sure those players are 100% town.

Therefore, I don't really have any obligation to keep evaluation Nanook/Tutuu because they're my "suspects" since we have the chops available to win the game.

I mean seriously? The game is already mechanically solved if I am correct.

The only way you're going to get me to do something about it other than just socialize here is if ANY of you (aside from my suspects) start doubting that Hally/SPF/Nutella are all town.

[Thunal33]

martin feels like dejected, boxed in mafia to me. i do not get the feeling from his posts that he is confident and excited that the game is solved from his pov if he just puts in the extra bit of work. he seems cornered and beaten. it reminds me of the contrast between how sheppard was the last day of the finals versus how jack was. martin is the sheppard of this game not because of experience level but because i think he knows he is beat and that reality is coming out in his posts, so all he can do is AtE and advocate his own elimination out of desperation. i don’t buy it

if i could describe martin's tone in one word today, it would be "stressed". i think that it's natural to be stressed if you are being fos'd as town, but the level of stress/frustration that his posts are giving off do not really align with how confidently he feels that the game is solved and that we can just secure our victory

I definitely agree with this. As town if he believes the game is solved and we're allowed to mischop him I think he would act very differently towards the game.

[MartinGG99]

Hally/SPF/Nutella

And Thunal*

[Hally]

i think martin killed alison in the hopes that we would just trust her read and is annoyed that we aren’t doing that. he all but said last day that he was using alison’s read as a crutch to be town read and basically slipped that alison was wrong about him. killing her and immortalizing her tr of him was a last ditch effort to wifom us into giving him a pass. nah. he is mafia

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

If I had the confidence in thun that Martin is expressing I would likely also be saying “just kill the three of us idc about order.” If you’re 100% confident in your towncore it’s fine to not care about yourself being in the Poe or dying

[MartinGG99]

giving us detailed reads to work with off your flip

My "detailed read" is what I've worked on since early D3. Which is my 3 suspects.

THAT is my legacy read. There is nothing else "to work off my flip".

[Hally]

i don’t think tutuu or nook are mafia. i really don’t. everyone is town but martin

[MartinGG99]

If you’re 100% confident in your towncore it’s fine to not care about yourself being in the Poe or dying

People have a tendency to correct others when they believe another person has a wrong answer or idea.

I kinda forgot the name of the G-something effect or whatever its called.

I don't really have the time to speculate and introspect as to when and where I try to correct people.