Overtime Mafia [Post-Game]

[tedxtr]

so tutuu

who's your team mate

[tutuu]

im town i swear

[MartinGG99]

I don't know if that angleshoot is real or fake (probably real given context) but the fact that Esooa just tried to angleshoot herself a certain alignment ruins the integrity of an already-damaged game to the point that I think the mod just has to call it.

This.

I regret not mentioning the game facilitator last night, I did at the start of the game (as part of the Setup rules), but I wish I emphasized it to her yesterday.

I'm just calling the game at this point.

Might as well call it a No-Contest at this point; some players (including one of the remaining scum) have already voiced their vote for that.

[tedxtr]

tutuu / Alison

tutuu / marmot

who is it

[tutuu]

no im town ur making a huge mistake ted

[tedxtr]

what's the reveal sir

[tedxtr]

i hope tutuu is a wolf so I'm not gonna have to talk about her terrible push on me d1

[Alison]

tutuu is spewed scum by the fact that she was the only one who isn't confirmed town who's online to vote for calling the game since Martin said one scum member voted to call. *taps head*

In which case congratulations tutuu your scum game was impeccable and you've finally managed to prove to us all that you're a force to be feared as scum!!

[MartinGG99]

Might as well call it a No-Contest at this point; some players (including one of the remaining scum) have already voiced their vote for that.

Or draw. Whatever you want to call it.


Role list:
Alison - Vanilla
Esooa - Custom Doctor (now vanilla due to private host action)
Falcon45ca - Vanilla
Long Con - Vanilla
MacDougall - Vanilla
Marmot - Goon (Now role-cop due to public host action)
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME - Vanilla
Poison - Custom Doctor
Sig - Vanilla
Syn - Mafia Role Cop
Tedxtr - Vanilla
Tutuu - Mafia strongman

Mafia Chat: https://discord.gg/jrXJfvHU8P

Spec/Dead Chat: https://discord.gg/xWNPXGHczy


I know I said I would make a post, in the post-game related to my actions regarding NANOOK, and I will. But I'm busy IRL atm and will get to it later today.

[tutuu]

thanx

[tedxtr]

ah sick

so pushed 2 wolves and the third one outed at EoD1

[Alison]

*gives tutuu lots of headpats*

You were great as mafia!!! You had me pocketed totally. <3 You deserve lots of commendations for that!

[tutuu]

ah sick

so pushed 2 wolves and the third one outed at EoD1

outed but was about to win

[tutuu]

*gives tutuu lots of headpats*

You were great as mafia!!! You had me pocketed totally. <3 You deserve lots of commendations for that!

ty!!! <3 <3 <3

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

That was certainly a game

[Alison]

yeah lol

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

Gj tutu you weren’t lying when you said your scum game is terrifying

[tutuu]

Gj tutu you weren’t lying when you said your scum game is terrifying

gg <3

[tedxtr]

ah sick

so pushed 2 wolves and the third one outed at EoD1

outed but was about to win

don't think so

but gj anyway and feel honoured that I was the first push that you tripped over lolz

[tutuu]

ah sick

so pushed 2 wolves and the third one outed at EoD1

outed but was about to win

don't think so

but gj anyway and feel honoured that I was the first push that you tripped over lolz

i very very definitely think so

u were strong!

[tutuu]

i think we should work on some site-wide standard of rules, i will post about it in the mafia channel on the syndicate discord, hop on there and give input

[Alison]

Gj tutu you weren’t lying when you said your scum game is terrifying

Yes she did really good! Her town game is hard to replicate and I read her town pretty much the whole way here. The counterclaim on LC was godlike tbh.

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

i think we should work on some site-wide standard of rules, i will post about it in the mafia channel on the syndicate discord, hop on there and give input

If you want people to see it posting here might be better

[tutuu]

i think we should work on some site-wide standard of rules, i will post about it in the mafia channel on the syndicate discord, hop on there and give input

If you want people to see it posting here might be better

i dont mind pinging literally everyone, on discord, on the forum, whatever, before i present my suggestions for a extensive sitewide standard of rules, with specifc posts that are and are not allowed, i want to know if people are cool with having a sitewide standard set of rules in the first place

[MartinGG99]

i think we should work on some site-wide standard of rules, i will post about it in the mafia channel on the syndicate discord, hop on there and give input

If you want people to see it posting here might be better

This ^

Since I am later going to post my thoughts here, where I may have been wrong, where I thought I may have been right

what questions I have to you guys, where I think I can improve or can do to improve,

and etc etc etc

But if I post it right now it would be extremely informal or messy and I want it to appear in a more proper or clear format

[Marmot]

Guy's, I don't think Tutuu's scum, her town game is too good. It's so good I didn't even realize the game had ended!!!!!

[MartinGG99]

i think we should work on some site-wide standard of rules, i will post about it in the mafia channel on the syndicate discord, hop on there and give input

If you want people to see it posting here might be better

This ^

Since I am later going to post my thoughts here, where I may have been wrong, where I thought I may have been right

what questions I have to you guys, where I think I can improve or can do to improve,

and etc etc etc

But if I post it right now it would be extremely informal or messy and I want it to appear in a more proper or clear format

That said nothing says you can't or shouldn't post in the TS mafia channel

[tutuu]

i mean for visibility sake everyone needs to see it, not just ppl from this game, so it makes more sense to me to post it on the global channel and also make a thread somewhere on the forum, if i can find a feedback section

[tutuu]

i mean for visibility sake everyone needs to see it, not just ppl from this game, so it makes more sense to me to post it on the global channel and also make a thread somewhere on the forum, if i can find a feedback section

[Marmot]

Happy birthday @tutuu!!! I'm sorry we couldn't get a win for your birthday, I hope a screaming marmot will do.

[Alison]

I sort of wonder what would've happened if ted had exed Marmot like he wanted. I assume we would've turbo'd Esooa next, she'd flip town, then it would be between Wilgy and tutuu. I think scum still win because I'd side with tutuu in that position, probably, I was pocketed too deep.

[tedxtr]

so prob gonna be my last post on syndicate for a while

feeling pretty sad that I can kind of corroborate esooa's feelings on a lot of stuff.

tunneling is fine, but when you start acting like the person you're pushing is outed scum (i think the worse point is saying it too), it starts being obnoxious, to the point where omgus becomes a thing and for the right reasons too.

as a bystander, it also saps any will for me to play the game too. I hate arrogance that is translated into pushes. it can be very anti-villa, especially when you're wrong.

i just feel like everything would be simpler if we didn't have to flex our every reads. i get memeing about it, but having to talk to somebody (that's a villa too) when they keep saying you're outed scum can be frustrating as hell. it saps them of any motivation to play the game. it's like you'd be on league and you start getting flamed. pretty much the same effect, any game applies for the most part.

but the break is more because i find myself not try harding as much as I used to before and prefer mashes over normals a lot more. i just read posts without any intent to sort anything, I read it for the sake of reading and catching up although I don't infer much from posts. probably a me fault at times too, must be burnout.

thanks for the ride frands, i enjoyed it. been fun. i'm working on "transferring" only to mashes and turbos because those are the most fun for me and rarely tilting.

please stay humble and don't be arrogant with pushes, because if you're wrong about it and also a villager, things like these can happen. be willing to reason it out and talk to everyone. state your cases and let your scum read breathe for a bit. acknowledge that there's a 75% chance you're wrong. be open to having your mind changed.

that's all <3

[tutuu]

Happy birthday @tutuu!!! I'm sorry we couldn't get a win for your birthday, I hope a screaming marmot will do.

we won marmot <3 <3 <3 <3 <3

[Alison]

Strongly disagree with #1282. My stance is that if you aren't prepared to be suspected of being mafia you shouldn't play mafia. I've had games where I fucked up D1 and said something stupid, and was under pressure and called outed scum the whole game and I was fine with that because that's just mafia. I don't flex my reads. Everyone who's hydra'd with me in the hydra season games knows that I frequently manipulate the projected confidence I have in my reads because it furthers my win condition. Yes sometimes it backfires but for every time it backfires it creates good outcomes ten other times.

I play "arrogantly" because that's what works. It's not about being arrogant IRL or genuinely thinking I'm a god at mafia or whatever. I play as though my reads are correct because I think it's optimal. I've argued before on discord why it's GTO to exaggerate the confidence levels in early reads as well. I'm sorry you dislike playing against it, but I think this approach creates good results and we've seen a ton of town games won in the Syndicate because of players acting like this. Not just me but a wide variety of players who push their scumreads the way I did this game.

[Syn]

so prob gonna be my last post on syndicate for a while

feeling pretty sad that I can kind of corroborate esooa's feelings on a lot of stuff.

tunneling is fine, but when you start acting like the person you're pushing is outed scum (i think the worse point is saying it too), it starts being obnoxious, to the point where omgus becomes a thing and for the right reasons too.

as a bystander, it also saps any will for me to play the game too. I hate arrogance that is translated into pushes. it can be very anti-villa, especially when you're wrong.

i just feel like everything would be simpler if we didn't have to flex our every reads. i get memeing about it, but having to talk to somebody (that's a villa too) when they keep saying you're outed scum can be frustrating as hell. it saps them of any motivation to play the game. it's like you'd be on league and you start getting flamed. pretty much the same effect, any game applies for the most part.

but the break is more because i find myself not try harding as much as I used to before and prefer mashes over normals a lot more. i just read posts without any intent to sort anything, I read it for the sake of reading and catching up although I don't infer much from posts. probably a me fault at times too, must be burnout.

thanks for the ride frands, i enjoyed it. been fun. i'm working on "transferring" only to mashes and turbos because those are the most fun for me and rarely tilting.

please stay humble and don't be arrogant with pushes, because if you're wrong about it and also a villager, things like these can happen. be willing to reason it out and talk to everyone. state your cases and let your scum read breathe for a bit. acknowledge that there's a 75% chance you're wrong. be open to having your mind changed.

that's all <3

a v/v tunnel happens in almost every game. I think it just comes with the territory.

The difference is that they are usually resolved within a day or two, or it falls apart once one side tires themselves out. Resolving a v/v tunnel with the chop is pretty standard practice, at least in the games I've played. Alison and Esooa are strong-headed players. When I first played an extended game with Alison I also got frustrated. She's very confident and doesn't acknowledge insecurity or wish-washy-ness. It can come across as arrogance, though after knowing Alison for a couple months I don't think that's true. Esooa too has strong opinions. New but has all the markings of a great player. They zeroed in on each other and away they went. It happens, I don't think it should be read into, especially since both of them were careful not to stray into personal-insult territory.

Though I think it's unfortunate that Esooa ended up taking it personally and left the site as a result. I hope she comes back.

[Alison]

The bottom line is that what you call "arrogant" reads may be frustrating for you personally but they objectively have a good track record of producing wolf pelts. That means that you're asking people to not do something that's proven to catch scum in order to cater to your playstyle because you hate being suspected. I don't think that's a reasonable request. I hate to sound blunt, harsh or cruel, but if you can't tolerate someone seriously 100% thinking that you're mafia and there's no probability of you being town... forum mafia is not the right game for you.

On a side note I want to point out that yes these kinds of things can be game losing for town if they're wrong, but you have to look at the overall EV of the strategy (% of being right * value of being right - % of being wrong * value of being wrong). If it works more often than it doesn't, even if you throw the game when you're wrong, it might still increase your overall winrate. Focusing overly on the downsides of this strategy is statistical bias, you're zooming in on the one time things go wrong rather than the multitudes of times they go right.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Strongly disagree with #1282. My stance is that if you aren't prepared to be suspected of being mafia you shouldn't play mafia. I've had games where I fucked up D1 and said something stupid, and was under pressure and called outed scum the whole game and I was fine with that because that's just mafia. I don't flex my reads. Everyone who's hydra'd with me in the hydra season games knows that I frequently manipulate the projected confidence I have in my reads because it furthers my win condition. Yes sometimes it backfires but for every time it backfires it creates good outcomes ten other times.

I play "arrogantly" because that's what works. It's not about being arrogant IRL or genuinely thinking I'm a god at mafia or whatever. I play as though my reads are correct because I think it's optimal. I've argued before on discord why it's GTO to exaggerate the confidence levels in early reads as well. I'm sorry you dislike playing against it, but I think this approach creates good results and we've seen a ton of town games won in the Syndicate because of players acting like this. Not just me but a wide variety of players who push their scumreads the way I did this game.

Have you tried to consider the worth of your strategy in terms other than whether they help you win the game?

[Alison]

Strongly disagree with #1282. My stance is that if you aren't prepared to be suspected of being mafia you shouldn't play mafia. I've had games where I fucked up D1 and said something stupid, and was under pressure and called outed scum the whole game and I was fine with that because that's just mafia. I don't flex my reads. Everyone who's hydra'd with me in the hydra season games knows that I frequently manipulate the projected confidence I have in my reads because it furthers my win condition. Yes sometimes it backfires but for every time it backfires it creates good outcomes ten other times.

I play "arrogantly" because that's what works. It's not about being arrogant IRL or genuinely thinking I'm a god at mafia or whatever. I play as though my reads are correct because I think it's optimal. I've argued before on discord why it's GTO to exaggerate the confidence levels in early reads as well. I'm sorry you dislike playing against it, but I think this approach creates good results and we've seen a ton of town games won in the Syndicate because of players acting like this. Not just me but a wide variety of players who push their scumreads the way I did this game.

Have you tried to consider the worth of your strategy in terms other than whether they help you win the game?

I select strategies for games based on how much they help me fulfil my win condition. To do otherwise would be to fail to play to my win condition for external reasons (how embarassed I am if my strategy loses the game for town, how frustrated the other person gets, etc.), which I don't believe in when playing mafia.

[Alison]

Also note: I have the capacity to play "non-arrogantly", and have demonstrated that capability in many games. I tunnel people when I think it's the right play, not because I'm full of myself or want to carry every game.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Strongly disagree with #1282. My stance is that if you aren't prepared to be suspected of being mafia you shouldn't play mafia. I've had games where I fucked up D1 and said something stupid, and was under pressure and called outed scum the whole game and I was fine with that because that's just mafia. I don't flex my reads. Everyone who's hydra'd with me in the hydra season games knows that I frequently manipulate the projected confidence I have in my reads because it furthers my win condition. Yes sometimes it backfires but for every time it backfires it creates good outcomes ten other times.

I play "arrogantly" because that's what works. It's not about being arrogant IRL or genuinely thinking I'm a god at mafia or whatever. I play as though my reads are correct because I think it's optimal. I've argued before on discord why it's GTO to exaggerate the confidence levels in early reads as well. I'm sorry you dislike playing against it, but I think this approach creates good results and we've seen a ton of town games won in the Syndicate because of players acting like this. Not just me but a wide variety of players who push their scumreads the way I did this game.

Have you tried to consider the worth of your strategy in terms other than whether they help you win the game?

I select strategies for games based on how much they help me fulfil my win condition. To do otherwise would be to fail to play to my win condition for external reasons (how embarassed I am if my strategy loses the game for town, how frustrated the other person gets, etc.), which I don't believe in when playing mafia.

I undeerstand. That doesn't work for me, though. I don't see a victory in mafia worth it if the people playing with me didn't enjoy the game, too.

[tutuu]

Suggestion for sitewide standard definition of what's angleshooting, OGI, punishment, compensation, etc

Open-ended community discussion. I propose a sitewide standard set of rules that should be applied to all games by default. These rules ought to be linked by every host in their game, both in the sign-up thread and in the OP of the thread. Hosts should have the right to remove/add/change any of these rules, but they need to be explicit and specific.

Please, give your thoughts, suggestions, concerns, etc:

Here are my suggestions:

"Angleshooting" is the act of doing something unsportsmanlike. An angleshot/dirty/OGI read or speculation is something that you have acquired outside from the in-game mafia thread from all the players, in the way the game is supposed to be played, but in another way, outside from the game thread and/or from the host.

-You should not mention that you have angleshooty/OGI reads. You should never mention the word "angleshoot" in a post period. If you attain one, make up another reason to justify the read or speculation, something that's tied to in-game stuff that other people can engage with. If you claim that "I have a dirty read on X and I can't say why" - nobody can engage with this, and I don't believe it's fair. Or rather, it's inconvenient for scum players to have to start saying they have dirty reads from time to time in their repertoaire in order to balance things out. It takes away from the Mafia experience imo if a balanced metagame would be when both factions end up saying they have inexplainable dirty reads from tiem to time. And the mafia can't naturally attain dirty angleshoot reads since they already have TMI. So I think the better variant of balanced metagame is if nobody can talk about it.

-Do not respond to other people mentioning anything regarding angleshooting, because things can have a domino effect. Just alert the mod and pretend the post doesn't exist

-Hosts should not respond to people's posts in the thread. Some hosts can be unintentionally biased to respond to setup related questions to members of the town who genuinely dont understand the setup, but if a member of the mafia tries to fake a derp clear or something, or feign ignorance about setup related thing, the host might be biased because they know that person is feigning the ignorance and forget to respond to it. The host, if they wish to interact with the players in their game, needs to constantly remind themselves that they shouldn't have TMI. I think slip-ups can happen as a result of this, so I don't believe hosts should ever directly respond to posts. If they wish to answer or say anything they should publicly say, without quoting any posts:

"Question: bla bla bla"
"Answer: bla bla bla"

And remind people not to interact with the post.

-The players should not interact with the host ITT in any way. They should not ping them with questions, they should ask privately. The reasoning is that discord is widely used for mafia chats, and a lot of people, i think, find it more convenient to type out a quick question there in wolf chat where they might be spending a lot of time regardless, than to get on the forum and ping the host there. From the way host and player talk ITT it is also possible to generate angleshooty reads. So I believe player/host public communication should be banned.

-Do not refer to mod communication. That's obvious, but:

-When having to refer to mod communication because you have no other choice (for instance, you need to ask the host on clarification on your role): Do not say "I asked tutuu and she told me this and this and that". If you repeatedly casually mention the host and the way you talked to them and what you asked them your tone/your sentence structure can generate OGI reads. Do not say that you asked the host anything. But the biggest part is the timing of you saying this itt. Let's say a scum player dies, and their role PM flips something unexpected. If a player were to say "I just asked tutuu and she told me this and this and that about this scum flip" - then that player is angleshooting themselves as town imo, because mafia are likely to already know the information about this scum flip, and they wouldn't ask the host right now. So that player is town who is angleshooting themselves town, or if they're mafia, they're consciously trying to get themselves townread based off of people thinking that - oh hey, this person asked the host, it means they are town. This whole thing devolves from the Mafia experience, this isn't Mafia.
So instead, you should say "I was told that blah blah blah" - hosts giving clarifications themselves, regardless of whether or not prompted by a question seem more safe to me / I think there is less danger of dirty reads being generated.

-Do not mention ongoing games, do not interact with them in any way shape or form. Even if you're dead in one, if that game is not completed, pretend that it does not exist.

- i got tired of writing, i have more to say about compensation, modkills, etc. just this for now

[Alison]

I undeerstand. That doesn't work for me, though. I don't see a victory in mafia worth it if the people playing with me didn't enjoy the game, too.

Well think about it from the perspective of my teammates. Wouldn't they enjoy it less if we had a close loss, and it came out postgame that I had a really strong correct read but chose not to nail them to the wall because I wanted to give them a chance?

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

Some of this seems fairly draconian to me

[sig]

@sig @Marmot

whats ur current stance

I can't get over the whiplash of Alison right now, like why is she back on esooa, but believe tuutuu? If anything first docter clear should be the most clear since nobody called them out right?

Either way I think it makes more sense to stay the course today lynch Alison. Especially after everyone was redirected to LC from Alison last phase and it ended with a civ here.

If Alison isn't mafia then I'd say she's probably right on Esooa and other mafia member would have to be Marmot potentially ted.

If she is mafia her partner is gonna be wilgy, which honestly seems the most likely.

[Marmot]

Yo @sig, game's over.

[Marmot]

@sig

[sig]

Nvm its over and rip my last post was wrong

[tedxtr]

@sig @Marmot

whats ur current stance

I can't get over the whiplash of Alison right now, like why is she back on esooa, but believe tuutuu? If anything first docter clear should be the most clear since nobody called them out right?

Either way I think it makes more sense to stay the course today lynch Alison. Especially after everyone was redirected to LC from Alison last phase and it ended with a civ here.

If Alison isn't mafia then I'd say she's probably right on Esooa and other mafia member would have to be Marmot potentially ted.

If she is mafia her partner is gonna be wilgy, which honestly seems the most likely.

i'm prettay sure she's still mafia

[Marmot]

Sorry, I shoulda let him keep playing

[sig]

Well half right