Christmas Time Is Here Again
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Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
Wilgy be honest with me
1. Are you mafia who self coaled?
2. Do you want to start a not quite legal organ harvesting business with me?
1. Are you mafia who self coaled?
2. Do you want to start a not quite legal organ harvesting business with me?




Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
I'm thinking we get some organs you can harvest them being a doctor and I'll handle the business side, but disclaimer when we're caught it was all your idea and I was just tricked by your looks and charms




Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
oh god I have given you unrealistic expectationsSamusamu wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:26 am I like the way Sin has entered the game, entering with strength and presence indicates that you are willing to be a great town in this game.
For the time being it will be town for me.
The cat posts transmit me positive reflectivity, not the kind of scum that wants to flow.
Slightly town.

Spoiler: show
Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
Oof im trying to read my quote and I should really stop posting pre coffee.Syn wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:03 pmoh god I have given you unrealistic expectationsSamusamu wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:26 am I like the way Sin has entered the game, entering with strength and presence indicates that you are willing to be a great town in this game.
For the time being it will be town for me.
The cat posts transmit me positive reflectivity, not the kind of scum that wants to flow.
Slightly town.
![]()
*we had quite a few people there that always used to say a mafia member would be within the first 3 posters.




- Kylemii
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Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
Syn is sus for commenting on anime avatars while having one themselves.
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Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
Cat, Samusamu, syn, and Mewtini please explain yourselves
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Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
Nah okay wait. If santa's elfs from hell don't get to kill people and only get to kill people through their one shot, then optimal play is to give your teammates the shot asap. Obv that's wifom, but that doesn't change the benefit you get from that. the more we talk about it thread, the more it becomes wifom, which is why I don't think this conversation serves townSamusamu wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:33 amThink of it this way, you think it's safest to put it in a partner on d1.
The metagame causes you to think about who is more likely to put a partner or who is more likely to put a town.
You, who are human and have an ego, will want to be above your goal or not and will do the opposite of what you are expected to do or not. In the end your defence against such an accusation is as easy as saying, hey, that I wouldn't have done this, it is very obvious to me, or saying, hey, that this is the opposite of what I would do, it is not my "metagame".
That's why it's wifom.
As I pointed out before, the interesting thing about this fact comes now by reading the game and seeing how it develops.
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Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
by which I mean explain who you are and where you're from
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Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
what you did etc etc
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Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
I see your scheme as i see his coalGrand Scheme wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:20 am Wilgy's stocking is full of coal
But Grand Scheme will not judge his soul
Agreed with samu's Change My Mind
Wilgy's stocking is full of wine
but with wifom can you not judge a soul
so direct are hearts to thing with meanings
Mr. Wilgy, what are your readings?
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Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
I don't think wilgy getting the coal means he's bad, but i do think wilgy shouldn't use to night shoot unless he's proves to be on the nice list, and right now he's on the middle place list
thoughts?
thoughts?
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Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
I am from CFC and was invited by Timsup2nothin. A natural evolution, as some Syndicate members also played on CFC early this year!
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Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
coal isn't gun
and I think we're forced to submit a target, so no gift holstering
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Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
oh....so coal is just a straight negative... ight doesn't change the null wilgy read, but it does change the flavor of wifom.
I thought the coal turned into a gift the next day...which when you say it out loud, sounds pretty silly
I thought the coal turned into a gift the next day...which when you say it out loud, sounds pretty silly

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Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
I still think that talking about the coal is a wifom disaster that doesn't serve town, especially this early. We can do better than wifom
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Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
1. No, but it does make me suspect that the person who coaled me is familiar enough to recognize that it's something I'd do as a feint.
2. Hellz yeah, I even got the scalpel and the ice chest ready.
Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
Fair enough. I am very good looking.
Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
Samu town,Made wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:26 pmI see your scheme as i see his coalGrand Scheme wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:20 am Wilgy's stocking is full of coal
But Grand Scheme will not judge his soul
Agreed with samu's Change My Mind
Wilgy's stocking is full of wine
but with wifom can you not judge a soul
so direct are hearts to thing with meanings
Mr. Wilgy, what are your readings?
Sig and Syn scum. Hbu?
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Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
Hahaha,sig wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:38 pmDid you read the rules?Samusamu wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:43 amÑñññ.sig wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:03 am I guess everyone is to busy adulting or something.
But. I do have a few ideas regarding gifts, so from the rules it sounds like mafia give them out, but we don't know who got it.. This is gonna further muddy the waters paired with coal.
I don't think hero shooting is necessarily the best way to approach it until mid game, before mid game and once we get closer to end game it would probably make the most sense if everyone targeted the same person. That would insure town has more control over the game and we're not just hitting random people.
I'd also say for n1 we just target people who haven't shown up yet. I'm never really a fan of lynching non posters I think its a good way for mafia to blend and not have responsibility, but given that these are kills i think it may make the most sense to trim the fat early
Too early to talk about lynching non poster.
I was thinking about the hero shooting thing.
I conclude that i dont care meanwhile that person can explain the shot and that explanation sound legit to me in day 1/2.
Saying hey i have a shot lets talk to decide who should we shot its a good and easy way for deepwolfing.
This post sounds to me like preparing the ground for the scenario where a scum is given the shot and can easily spend half a day just talking about the shot and not giving an opinion.
You post like a mafia.
Since that scenario just isn't feasible, everyone submits a shot nobody knows who got the shot except for mafia.
There's no way to really discuss it in the sense of I have a shot who should I shoot, sinfe nobody knows who's gonna get one.
Mafia have one shot per the rules, so why you're so quick to say I'm mafia for trying to come up with a game plan is rather scummy actually.
The scenario is feasible from the moment you can say, hey, today I can fire a shot. But that's not what's important
The important thing, and to finish this off a bit, is that I haven't said that your reasoning isn't legitimate, but that the way it's done gives me mafia-like feelings, and that's why you have my vote.
What have you done in return? Easy, resorting to the countervote without giving many explanations. To make matters worse, I seem to you scum since I voted for you and I have said why, if I had avoided quoting you and passing by I would not have said vote, since previously you had not quoted me nor mentioned that you think I am scum.
This makes me think that either you are a tremendously visceral player or that you just want to dirty the thread in a futile exchange.
I reaffirm that you post as a scum does prototypically, so for the time being my vote will remain with you a while longer.
The game continues.
Also if anything talking about the shots is by far one of the easiest ways to catch mafia, it's essentially just a second lynch for town if used correctly, not talking about it is gonna make everything murky and more difficult for town.
The first thing is that I don't want to cut the conversation about the shooting. On the contrary, I stopped for a second to give my opinion on a particular case. (Hero shooting)
I have never said that not talking about the shooting is optimal, rather I am being part of that conversation while making my own assessment.
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Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
(Wtf, this happen to me for translating what i want to say in a word and copypaste it here.)
Hahaha,
Good way to twist what I say.
The first thing is that I don't want to cut the conversation about the shooting. On the contrary, I stopped for a second to give my opinion on a particular case. (Hero shooting)
I have never said that not talking about the shooting is optimal, rather I am being part of that conversation while making my own assessment.
The scenario is feasible from the moment you can say, hey, today I can fire a shot. But that's not what's important
The important thing, and to finish this off a bit, is that I haven't said that your reasoning isn't legitimate, but that the way it's done gives me mafia-like feelings, and that's why you have my vote.
What have you done in return? Easy, resorting to the countervote without giving many explanations. To make matters worse, I seem to you scum since I voted for you and I have said why, if I had avoided quoting you and passing by I would not have said vote, since previously you had not quoted me nor mentioned that you think I am scum.
This makes me think that either you are a tremendously visceral player or that you just want to dirty the thread in a futile exchange.
I reaffirm that you post as a scum does prototypically, so for the time being my vote will remain with you a while longer.
The game continues.
Hahaha,
The first thing is that I don't want to cut the conversation about the shooting. On the contrary, I stopped for a second to give my opinion on a particular case. (Hero shooting)
I have never said that not talking about the shooting is optimal, rather I am being part of that conversation while making my own assessment.
The scenario is feasible from the moment you can say, hey, today I can fire a shot. But that's not what's important
The important thing, and to finish this off a bit, is that I haven't said that your reasoning isn't legitimate, but that the way it's done gives me mafia-like feelings, and that's why you have my vote.
What have you done in return? Easy, resorting to the countervote without giving many explanations. To make matters worse, I seem to you scum since I voted for you and I have said why, if I had avoided quoting you and passing by I would not have said vote, since previously you had not quoted me nor mentioned that you think I am scum.
This makes me think that either you are a tremendously visceral player or that you just want to dirty the thread in a futile exchange.
I reaffirm that you post as a scum does prototypically, so for the time being my vote will remain with you a while longer.
The game continues.
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Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
Sig town,DrWilgy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:54 pmSamu town,Made wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:26 pmI see your scheme as i see his coalGrand Scheme wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:20 am Wilgy's stocking is full of coal
But Grand Scheme will not judge his soul
Agreed with samu's Change My Mind
Wilgy's stocking is full of wine
but with wifom can you not judge a soul
so direct are hearts to thing with meanings
Mr. Wilgy, what are your readings?
Sig and Syn scum. Hbu?
Samu scum. Why is sig scum?
Spoiler: show
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Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
this is word salady af. I don't see how this kind of staging is helps us when it hasn't happened, it just will create more confusion when/if it does, which serves scumSamusamu wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:02 pm (Wtf, this happen to me for translating what i want to say in a word and copypaste it here.)
Hahaha,Good way to twist what I say.
The first thing is that I don't want to cut the conversation about the shooting. On the contrary, I stopped for a second to give my opinion on a particular case. (Hero shooting)
I have never said that not talking about the shooting is optimal, rather I am being part of that conversation while making my own assessment.
The scenario is feasible from the moment you can say, hey, today I can fire a shot. But that's not what's important
The important thing, and to finish this off a bit, is that I haven't said that your reasoning isn't legitimate, but that the way it's done gives me mafia-like feelings, and that's why you have my vote.
What have you done in return? Easy, resorting to the countervote without giving many explanations. To make matters worse, I seem to you scum since I voted for you and I have said why, if I had avoided quoting you and passing by I would not have said vote, since previously you had not quoted me nor mentioned that you think I am scum.
This makes me think that either you are a tremendously visceral player or that you just want to dirty the thread in a futile exchange.
I reaffirm that you post as a scum does prototypically, so for the time being my vote will remain with you a while longer.
The game continues.
Spoiler: show
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Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
New to the format. if we 2/3 vote chop someone, does the day just end or do we get to keep going?
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Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
Wow!Made wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:05 pmthis is word salady af. I don't see how this kind of staging is helps us when it hasn't happened, it just will create more confusion when/if it does, which serves scumSamusamu wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:02 pm (Wtf, this happen to me for translating what i want to say in a word and copypaste it here.)
Hahaha,Good way to twist what I say.
The first thing is that I don't want to cut the conversation about the shooting. On the contrary, I stopped for a second to give my opinion on a particular case. (Hero shooting)
I have never said that not talking about the shooting is optimal, rather I am being part of that conversation while making my own assessment.
The scenario is feasible from the moment you can say, hey, today I can fire a shot. But that's not what's important
The important thing, and to finish this off a bit, is that I haven't said that your reasoning isn't legitimate, but that the way it's done gives me mafia-like feelings, and that's why you have my vote.
What have you done in return? Easy, resorting to the countervote without giving many explanations. To make matters worse, I seem to you scum since I voted for you and I have said why, if I had avoided quoting you and passing by I would not have said vote, since previously you had not quoted me nor mentioned that you think I am scum.
This makes me think that either you are a tremendously visceral player or that you just want to dirty the thread in a futile exchange.
I reaffirm that you post as a scum does prototypically, so for the time being my vote will remain with you a while longer.
The game continues.
I'm saying why i read someone scum, and finishing that thought, that is very confuse, haha no.
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Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
You just used the word prototypical. This is some syergistic corporate megalamanic viscerlony baloney my friendSamusamu wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:18 pmWow!Made wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:05 pmthis is word salady af. I don't see how this kind of staging is helps us when it hasn't happened, it just will create more confusion when/if it does, which serves scumSamusamu wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:02 pm (Wtf, this happen to me for translating what i want to say in a word and copypaste it here.)
Hahaha,Good way to twist what I say.
The first thing is that I don't want to cut the conversation about the shooting. On the contrary, I stopped for a second to give my opinion on a particular case. (Hero shooting)
I have never said that not talking about the shooting is optimal, rather I am being part of that conversation while making my own assessment.
The scenario is feasible from the moment you can say, hey, today I can fire a shot. But that's not what's important
The important thing, and to finish this off a bit, is that I haven't said that your reasoning isn't legitimate, but that the way it's done gives me mafia-like feelings, and that's why you have my vote.
What have you done in return? Easy, resorting to the countervote without giving many explanations. To make matters worse, I seem to you scum since I voted for you and I have said why, if I had avoided quoting you and passing by I would not have said vote, since previously you had not quoted me nor mentioned that you think I am scum.
This makes me think that either you are a tremendously visceral player or that you just want to dirty the thread in a futile exchange.baddie
I reaffirm that you post as a scum does prototypically, so for the time being my vote will remain with you a while longer.
The game continues.
I'm saying why i read someone scum, and finishing that thought, that is very confuse, haha no.![]()
get rid of the words and you get "yeah, uhhh no me? no u!! anyways wifom anyone?"
Spoiler: show
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Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
My banners:
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Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
Samu is not a native english speakerMade wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:30 pmYou just used the word prototypical. This is some syergistic corporate megalamanic viscerlony baloney my friendSamusamu wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:18 pmWow!Made wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:05 pmthis is word salady af. I don't see how this kind of staging is helps us when it hasn't happened, it just will create more confusion when/if it does, which serves scumSamusamu wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:02 pm (Wtf, this happen to me for translating what i want to say in a word and copypaste it here.)
Hahaha,Good way to twist what I say.
The first thing is that I don't want to cut the conversation about the shooting. On the contrary, I stopped for a second to give my opinion on a particular case. (Hero shooting)
I have never said that not talking about the shooting is optimal, rather I am being part of that conversation while making my own assessment.
The scenario is feasible from the moment you can say, hey, today I can fire a shot. But that's not what's important
The important thing, and to finish this off a bit, is that I haven't said that your reasoning isn't legitimate, but that the way it's done gives me mafia-like feelings, and that's why you have my vote.
What have you done in return? Easy, resorting to the countervote without giving many explanations. To make matters worse, I seem to you scum since I voted for you and I have said why, if I had avoided quoting you and passing by I would not have said vote, since previously you had not quoted me nor mentioned that you think I am scum.
This makes me think that either you are a tremendously visceral player or that you just want to dirty the thread in a futile exchange.baddie
I reaffirm that you post as a scum does prototypically, so for the time being my vote will remain with you a while longer.
The game continues.
I'm saying why i read someone scum, and finishing that thought, that is very confuse, haha no.![]()
get rid of the words and you get "yeah, uhhh no me? no u!! anyways wifom anyone?"
My banners:
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Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
Word, respect. keeping my sus, but tossing the knife. I don't know what the word prototypical means, and big words threaten me general, so that much might just be on me
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Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
I don't really see how you can think my points are legitimate, but then also say I'm mafia for making them it just doesn't really click with me.Samusamu wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:02 pm (Wtf, this happen to me for translating what i want to say in a word and copypaste it here.)
Hahaha,Good way to twist what I say.
The first thing is that I don't want to cut the conversation about the shooting. On the contrary, I stopped for a second to give my opinion on a particular case. (Hero shooting)
I have never said that not talking about the shooting is optimal, rather I am being part of that conversation while making my own assessment.
The scenario is feasible from the moment you can say, hey, today I can fire a shot. But that's not what's important
The important thing, and to finish this off a bit, is that I haven't said that your reasoning isn't legitimate, but that the way it's done gives me mafia-like feelings, and that's why you have my vote.
What have you done in return? Easy, resorting to the countervote without giving many explanations. To make matters worse, I seem to you scum since I voted for you and I have said why, if I had avoided quoting you and passing by I would not have said vote, since previously you had not quoted me nor mentioned that you think I am scum.
This makes me think that either you are a tremendously visceral player or that you just want to dirty the thread in a futile exchange.
I reaffirm that you post as a scum does prototypically, so for the time being my vote will remain with you a while longer.
The game continues.
I probably wouldn't have focused in on you if you didn't quote/vote me, but the fact you did makes it seems like your trying to stifle the conversation since you specifically voted for me based off discussing shooting.
You also didn't really address my TMI point of people not knowing who got a gift only mafia would.
And I don't think its logical fr everyone who picked someone who may die to claim it. Essentially all that does is give even more info to mafia, who for this game already possess alot.
Granted, our argument is mainly meta based here. I'm not ride or die on your wagon today. But, you're kinda sketching me out




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Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
No you dont.Syn wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:03 pmoh god I have given you unrealistic expectationsSamusamu wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:26 am I like the way Sin has entered the game, entering with strength and presence indicates that you are willing to be a great town in this game.
For the time being it will be town for me.
The cat posts transmit me positive reflectivity, not the kind of scum that wants to flow.
Slightly town.
![]()
You have entered the game with a strong energy, the way you post denotes that you intend to be a strong town
So for the moment you are a town and I don't contemplate that entrance being to appear to be a town.
What are your impressions so far?
Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
Also I'll be back to reevaluate and take a deeper look at samu after work today.
Other random thoughts
Made may be trying to budd/pocket me, not a fan of this slight ping.
Wilgy makes an interesting point without straying to deep down the meta hole i think we can accurately say at least one mafia member is a TS native. Still iffy on him.
I don't think sloonie is on samu team that's mainly gut though.
Other random thoughts
Made may be trying to budd/pocket me, not a fan of this slight ping.
Wilgy makes an interesting point without straying to deep down the meta hole i think we can accurately say at least one mafia member is a TS native. Still iffy on him.
I don't think sloonie is on samu team that's mainly gut though.




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Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
I dont understand this post.Made wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:30 pmYou just used the word prototypical. This is some syergistic corporate megalamanic viscerlony baloney my friendSamusamu wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:18 pmWow!Made wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:05 pmthis is word salady af. I don't see how this kind of staging is helps us when it hasn't happened, it just will create more confusion when/if it does, which serves scumSamusamu wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:02 pm (Wtf, this happen to me for translating what i want to say in a word and copypaste it here.)
Hahaha,Good way to twist what I say.
The first thing is that I don't want to cut the conversation about the shooting. On the contrary, I stopped for a second to give my opinion on a particular case. (Hero shooting)
I have never said that not talking about the shooting is optimal, rather I am being part of that conversation while making my own assessment.
The scenario is feasible from the moment you can say, hey, today I can fire a shot. But that's not what's important
The important thing, and to finish this off a bit, is that I haven't said that your reasoning isn't legitimate, but that the way it's done gives me mafia-like feelings, and that's why you have my vote.
What have you done in return? Easy, resorting to the countervote without giving many explanations. To make matters worse, I seem to you scum since I voted for you and I have said why, if I had avoided quoting you and passing by I would not have said vote, since previously you had not quoted me nor mentioned that you think I am scum.
This makes me think that either you are a tremendously visceral player or that you just want to dirty the thread in a futile exchange.baddie
I reaffirm that you post as a scum does prototypically, so for the time being my vote will remain with you a while longer.
The game continues.
I'm saying why i read someone scum, and finishing that thought, that is very confuse, haha no.![]()
get rid of the words and you get "yeah, uhhh no me? no u!! anyways wifom anyone?"
Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
sloonei knows how to wolf hunt and has already given us two of the woofs, sheep him to victorySamusamu wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:47 pmNo you dont.Syn wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:03 pmoh god I have given you unrealistic expectationsSamusamu wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:26 am I like the way Sin has entered the game, entering with strength and presence indicates that you are willing to be a great town in this game.
For the time being it will be town for me.
The cat posts transmit me positive reflectivity, not the kind of scum that wants to flow.
Slightly town.
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You have entered the game with a strong energy, the way you post denotes that you intend to be a strong town
So for the moment you are a town and I don't contemplate that entrance being to appear to be a town.
What are your impressions so far?
but no really, I have never been described as strong town. I have very low WIM and a hard cap on how much effort I put into Mafia
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- Samusamu
- Corrupt Union Official
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Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
I like the grammar but I still have to translate with a dictionary some words I don't know, so I will sound very formal often.
Anyway I don't understand your problem with that word.
- Samusamu
- Corrupt Union Official
- Posts in topic: 178
- Posts: 710
- Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:20 pm
- Gender: Male
Re: Christmas Time Is Here Again
The format, what is said and how is said are different issues.sig wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:45 pmI don't really see how you can think my points are legitimate, but then also say I'm mafia for making them it just doesn't really click with me.Samusamu wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:02 pm (Wtf, this happen to me for translating what i want to say in a word and copypaste it here.)
Hahaha,Good way to twist what I say.
The first thing is that I don't want to cut the conversation about the shooting. On the contrary, I stopped for a second to give my opinion on a particular case. (Hero shooting)
I have never said that not talking about the shooting is optimal, rather I am being part of that conversation while making my own assessment.
The scenario is feasible from the moment you can say, hey, today I can fire a shot. But that's not what's important
The important thing, and to finish this off a bit, is that I haven't said that your reasoning isn't legitimate, but that the way it's done gives me mafia-like feelings, and that's why you have my vote.
What have you done in return? Easy, resorting to the countervote without giving many explanations. To make matters worse, I seem to you scum since I voted for you and I have said why, if I had avoided quoting you and passing by I would not have said vote, since previously you had not quoted me nor mentioned that you think I am scum.
This makes me think that either you are a tremendously visceral player or that you just want to dirty the thread in a futile exchange.
I reaffirm that you post as a scum does prototypically, so for the time being my vote will remain with you a while longer.
The game continues.
I probably wouldn't have focused in on you if you didn't quote/vote me, but the fact you did makes it seems like your trying to stifle the conversation since you specifically voted for me based off discussing shooting.
You also didn't really address my TMI point of people not knowing who got a gift only mafia would.
And I don't think its logical fr everyone who picked someone who may die to claim it. Essentially all that does is give even more info to mafia, who for this game already possess alot.
Granted, our argument is mainly meta based here. I'm not ride or die on your wagon today. But, you're kinda sketching me out
I can believe that the way you say something and the end itself can be scum as long as what you say can be legitimate and defensible on your part.