Bike [END]

[MartinGG99]

Okay, so I actually read a bit more of the context for what I was reading earlier.

I didn't realize Epi just simply OMGUS voted Marmot.

[TonyStarkPrime]

he's not hoping it can clear him

[Long Con]

Okay, so I actually read a bit more of the context for what I was reading earlier.

I didn't realize Epi just simply OMGUS voted Marmot.

What do you think of Epi's votes in general? Do you think all his hard work on Night 1 makes him towny? I don't. He just quotes a bunch of posts and concludes gibberish. I don't see at all what everyone is townreading about him. It's like his obstinance is earning applause and respectful nods.

[Long Con]

he's not hoping it can clear him

Is that old news? I thought he opened with that a couple of hours ago.

[Long Con]

what if the nanook death was due to some unknown unannounced compensation for reasons i dont know towards the wolves, and tony took the opportunity to claim it

We see if another one happens night 2?

[TonyStarkPrime]

he's not hoping it can clear him

Is that old news? I thought he opened with that a couple of hours ago.

it was expressly stated immediately that he thought it was nai

[MartinGG99]

Okay, so I actually read a bit more of the context for what I was reading earlier.

I didn't realize Epi just simply OMGUS voted Marmot.

What do you think of Epi's votes in general? Do you think all his hard work on Night 1 makes him towny? I don't. He just quotes a bunch of posts and concludes gibberish. I don't see at all what everyone is townreading about him. It's like his obstinance is earning applause and respectful nods.

TBH I kinda felt with his vote flying earlier at early D1 (Like 5 times across 150 posts of the thread or so) was him indicative of having no specific scum agenda.

That's also the kind of feel I get from most of his comments. Just no agenda. Also, the following doesn't seem like the kind of thing you do to a scum teammate

[VOTE: Made] aubergine

Tell me why this is wrong.

And I will hear what you have to say tomorrow.

He's not capitalizing on it at all. And when the night phase hits:

I'd rather be lucky than good.

My time is limited. I'll do what I can.

He's not really taking credit for it.

[juliets]

In response to the Juliets wall on Gulio here

In top-down order for each spoiler/note.

1. They were quite confused by the D0 obviously, and probably felt out of place. That creates anxiety for people regardless of alignment IMO, and depends more on their personality as to how they handle that. Additionally, Jay said this at the start of day 0:

It is Day 0. Day 1 will begin at 6:00 PM EDT tomorrow the 9th of January. You may treat this day as an ordinary game day, but there will be no voting until Day 1 begins. The primary purpose of Day 0 is to allow players to become aware the game has started and to check in. The thread is open.

If Gulio relied on this even partially, then they would have little reason to expect that D0, as per what Nanook implies in that quote, is or can be heavily involved in people's reads.

2. Okay.

3. Now, I'm not Gulio, but I do believe I can sympathize with it to a degree for a few reasons. Firstly, in my first town game here on TS with Tutuu I did at some point heavily scum-read her for (if I recall) bad reasons. Secondly, as Tutuu herself has noted multiple times this game, she is or was a frequent miselimination. People, in general, seem to have a hard time with Tutuu without having played with them before.

4. Last time they talked about Tutuu for the time of this quote was ~32 hours ago. And considering this game had ~1200 posts by the end of day 1, it isn't too inconceivable that they change their mind a little bit until later as a lot of posts had likely happened since then. Additionally, with their past post that you quoted, they work on a "guilty until proven innocent" mindset; in a sense one person is still guilty but is just less suspicious than other "guilty" persons. Though that may be stretching it a bit.

5. Okay. I could chop this up to "just having self-consciousness as part of being in a new community" buuut considering wolves are self-conscious as well, at least in the ideal world, that probably isn't going to fly (by you guys)....

6. No idea. I can't think of anything other than bringing up a "hey guys you're trying to yeet a new player in your community on day 1" card. But I doubt they were thinking that. Maybe they were just over-confident in themselves; I'm not Gulio and I don't really know them.

And the next two spoilers are pro-town-gulio, thus having no comment from me.

Martin, thanks for your response.

Regarding tutuu, my confusion lies in the fact that he had said several things about her being not town, the last being roughly 5 and 1/2 hours before he voted TSP. Meanwhile, he had said nothing about TSP and then further refused to say anything about him. I can understand if he thought TSP was more suspicious than tutuu but there is no evidence for his suspicion like there is for his suspicion of tutuu. And then he confounds it by telling Seanzie he will explain it and then he retracts that. This is really the crux of my suspicion. If he thought tutuu was suspicious but TSP was more suspicious why did he refuse to supply reasoning?

I don't know, I have never played with Guillo before so maybe this is just a play style issue that I am having trouble with because I am used to players providing reasons even if the reasons are "he's in my POE and I see nothing about him that tells me he's town".

[MartinGG99]

he's not hoping it can clear him

Is that old news? I thought he opened with that a couple of hours ago.

it was expressly stated immediately that he thought it was nai

(assuming I understand this conversation correctly)

To clarify, I've intended to mean that the feedback I got was NAI for me.

I've also said in the past that PRs are NAI, but that's in a presumed vacuum. It's my personal opinion that some things that are NAI will have nuances that can make them AI.

Such as how I think whatever targeted me on N1 to send that image probably was some sort of town role on the basis of wagonomics and etc and how unlikely I think it is for a wolf to target me.

[MartinGG99]

last being roughly 5 and 1/2 hours before he voted TSP

Okay, ctrl + F apparently failed me.

Or something. I actually don't know where I got the past number in my response post, as that claim by me was inaccurate.

Anyways, they seemed to be focused on this idea of being suspicious of those who were town-reading them at the time, as that was one their posts also 5 and 1/2 hours before.

I'm not going to spend more time on it tbh.

[MartinGG99]

I'm not going to spend more time on it tbh.

As in, I would rather spend my time looking into other things right now.

I just figured I would offer my thoughts if they're anything.

[juliets]

I'm not going to spend more time on it tbh.

As in, I would rather spend my time looking into other things right now.

I just figured I would offer my thoughts if they're anything.

Yes, of course. I appreciate your thoughts. I think I'm off to look at Epi.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

@Epignosis
@juliets
@MartinGG99
@Long Con
@Marmot
@Master Radishes
@Hally
@Seanzie
@TonyStarkPrime
@tutuu

Attention: somehow there seems to be a discrepancy with the poll deadline -- it is 13 minutes earlier than it is intended to be. I'm not sure why; it was 6:00 in the post preview. Anyway, day phase voting will end when the poll expires, even if that's 13 minutes early. Be aware of this as you proceed.

[MartinGG99]

@Seanzie

How do you feel about Long Con and Master Radishes together?

How many wolves do you see in there?

[MartinGG99]

Oh. Hi, Martin!

Guillo/Radish is still my top guess. They may be harder to place with others than each other.

Tony and Nanook should be suspects, I guess.
Epi’s Made vote is weird. It really is.
Hally is my favorite tinfoil, as custom will have it. But don’t act on that.
I’m ok following Tutu on a town read on LC.
Marmot really should be town.
Tutu, Jules and Sean lock town.

huh

(also I forgot to [VOTE: unvote] aubergine)

[MartinGG99]

Ok i understand. Butting in to answer questions meant for others is generally a scum tell, be careful.

It totally isn't imo. This is kind of what I mean with using "general scum tells" that are meant to apply to everyone. I don't know, it's not my thing. But it's ok if it works for you.

I don't tend to be careful. =p

but one step further, policy scum tells are really only useful in context- unless you're mafia in which case it's always useful

[VOTE: Guillotine] aubergine

Made's first vote of the game is on me?

[MartinGG99]

I feel out of wack or something

like I'm (partially) aimlessly looking through ISO's and sorta random parts of the thread

but I hope I do come across something that seems to be of good interest me

[Long Con]

Okay, so I actually read a bit more of the context for what I was reading earlier.

I didn't realize Epi just simply OMGUS voted Marmot.

What do you think of Epi's votes in general? Do you think all his hard work on Night 1 makes him towny? I don't. He just quotes a bunch of posts and concludes gibberish. I don't see at all what everyone is townreading about him. It's like his obstinance is earning applause and respectful nods.

TBH I kinda felt with his vote flying earlier at early D1 (Like 5 times across 150 posts of the thread or so) was him indicative of having no specific scum agenda.

That's also the kind of feel I get from most of his comments. Just no agenda. Also, the following doesn't seem like the kind of thing you do to a scum teammate

[VOTE: Made] aubergine

Tell me why this is wrong.

And I will hear what you have to say tomorrow.

He's not capitalizing on it at all. And when the night phase hits:

I'd rather be lucky than good.

My time is limited. I'll do what I can.

He's not really taking credit for it.

What is there to take credit for? The last dart he threw blindly hit the secret number on the board? Epi has played enough to know that he's not going to squeeze blood from a stone.

[MartinGG99]

Actually

[VOTE: Master Radishes] aubergine

I don't feel like Made just parks a vote on me since the early game, and then only 2nd vote he makes also happens to be a town.

They didn't really distance from anyone except me and them, and I'm not mafia lol. Oh and tutuu as well but rn I'm not super convince of Tutuu being plausibly scum atm.

[MartinGG99]

What is there to take credit for? The last dart he threw blindly hit the secret number on the board? Epi has played enough to know that he's not going to squeeze blood from a stone.

Then why bother bussing one's scummate at all if that's the case?

[Seanzie]

@Seanzie

How do you feel about Long Con and Master Radishes together?

How many wolves do you see in there?

I think it is possible, and neither LC or MR are in my towncore, but I think there are more likely options. In the moment, I really did feel like Made wanted a MR CFD at EoD1, so I have a sneaking suspicion MR is town. LC has also asked me a few good questions getting me to doubt my light town read on MR, and I don't think LC would do that if they were teamed. These things can be explained by bussing, which is why I haven't cleared either of them, but I am more concerned about you and Epignosis.

Especially since LC and I are mindmelding a bit about Epi. Epi's posts have that political feel, where it looks like he is saying a lot, but the reader needs to fill in the blanks, so it is easy to interpret Epi's posts how we want to interpret them. Maybe Epi is just like that, but I've seen strong wolves use that sort of posting technique to make themselves look towny.

How do you feel about Epi?

[MartinGG99]

How do you feel about Epi?

Well, I've said my piece about him.

Could be wrong as I have far from lock town'ed him but I would somewhat doubt it.

Him being scum feels weird. I get the feeling if he were scum then he would be doing something different and more proactive rather than all those side comments he keeps making.

As well as my past belief that I think the way he went about voting Made and reacted to Made's flip, including his future comments about there being at EoD without any comment, are just unlikely to have been made by a made wolf partner.

[Long Con]

What is there to take credit for? The last dart he threw blindly hit the secret number on the board? Epi has played enough to know that he's not going to squeeze blood from a stone.

Then why bother bussing one's scummate at all if that's the case?

You think his time would have been better spent doing something to get towncleared?

[Master Radishes]

Ugh.

Life.

[Marmot]

How do you feel about Epi?

Well, I've said my piece about him.

Could be wrong as I have far from lock town'ed him but I would somewhat doubt it.

Him being scum feels weird. I get the feeling if he were scum then he would be doing something different and more proactive rather than all those side comments he keeps making.

As well as my past belief that I think the way he went about voting Made and reacted to Made's flip, including his future comments about there being at EoD without any comment, are just unlikely to have been made by a made wolf partner.

What do you think about his handling of Made aside from the vote?

I talked a little bit about my opinion on that here. I think it's teammate compatible.

That said, MR is probably getting my vote today.

[Marmot]

Ugh.

Life.

Hi friend!

[Master Radishes]

I'm beginning to wonder if this game is playing out differently than people think it is.

iirc the 'consensus' PoE was me, TSP, and Martillotine. TSP is likely mech clear, I know my role card is green even if you all don't, and Martin's entrance was...well, not what I'd expect from a scum subbing into a losing scenario.

I don't feel like something is wrong, but I'm beginning to wonder.

I recognise few are going to accept this viewpoint coming from me, but nevertheless.

[Master Radishes]

Ugh.

Life.

Hi friend!

Pocket denied.

[MartinGG99]

What is there to take credit for? The last dart he threw blindly hit the secret number on the board? Epi has played enough to know that he's not going to squeeze blood from a stone.

Then why bother bussing one's scummate at all if that's the case?

You think his time would have been better spent doing something to get towncleared?

I don't get what you mean by that response.

I just think if there was no point for !scum Epi to get town-cred from the Made flip then he should either push on his other "scum-reads" or prepare for the future post-made-flip world with things to look into and pretend to be scum-hunting or something else.

Sure, he's made posts about the connections and possible partner compatibilities and what-not during N1, but if Epi was planning to do that then I would imagine there would've been a bit more coordination in that and epi's vote lands on Made sooner.

I don't know Epi well but that's my take of him.

[Master Radishes]

@Marmot since you're here,

You've undoubtedly explained this, but forgive me, I'm not in tune with the thread enough to remember what you said or where I can locate it - why the vote on Epi? I assume you know him from Way Back When.

[Master Radishes]

^I ask because I'm seeing Epi get questioning glances, and some are coming from people who know him.

But like, I see town Epi. I can't say I've kept a spreadsheet on him or anything, but he feels like town Epi to me, more or less. Kind of aloof, not always present but clearly keeping up, putting in spurts of iso-ing, etc.

[Marmot]

@Marmot since you're here,

You've undoubtedly explained this, but forgive me, I'm not in tune with the thread enough to remember what you said or where I can locate it - why the vote on Epi? I assume you know him from Way Back When.

On my phone atm, but I just posted a reason and a link to a longer explanation.

[Master Radishes]

I'm beginning to wonder if this game is playing out differently than people think it is.

iirc the 'consensus' PoE was me, TSP, and Martillotine. TSP is likely mech clear, I know my role card is green even if you all don't, and Martin's entrance was...well, not what I'd expect from a scum subbing into a losing scenario.

I don't feel like something is wrong, but I'm beginning to wonder.

I recognise few are going to accept this viewpoint coming from me, but nevertheless.

ClarificationBWOP

I don't 'feel' like something is wrong, as in I haven't gotten that nagging feeling when reading the thread that you often get when things are wrong.

But the current state of the PoE fmpov is making me question myself.

[Master Radishes]

@Marmot since you're here,

You've undoubtedly explained this, but forgive me, I'm not in tune with the thread enough to remember what you said or where I can locate it - why the vote on Epi? I assume you know him from Way Back When.

On my phone atm, but I just posted a reason and a link to a longer explanation.

Ah yeah, I see that, thanks.

[Master Radishes]

How do you feel about Epi?

Well, I've said my piece about him.

Could be wrong as I have far from lock town'ed him but I would somewhat doubt it.

Him being scum feels weird. I get the feeling if he were scum then he would be doing something different and more proactive rather than all those side comments he keeps making.

As well as my past belief that I think the way he went about voting Made and reacted to Made's flip, including his future comments about there being at EoD without any comment, are just unlikely to have been made by a made wolf partner.

What do you think about his handling of Made aside from the vote?

I talked a little bit about my opinion on that here. I think it's teammate compatible.

That said, MR is probably getting my vote today.

Reading over your iso of Epi interactions, I'd agree it's teammate compatible, but lots of townies are still going to be compatible with one or more wolves at this point of the game. It's something I'd keep in mind, but it doesn't change my own read of Epi at all I wouldn't say.

[MartinGG99]

How do you feel about Epi?

Well, I've said my piece about him.

Could be wrong as I have far from lock town'ed him but I would somewhat doubt it.

Him being scum feels weird. I get the feeling if he were scum then he would be doing something different and more proactive rather than all those side comments he keeps making.

As well as my past belief that I think the way he went about voting Made and reacted to Made's flip, including his future comments about there being at EoD without any comment, are just unlikely to have been made by a made wolf partner.

What do you think about his handling of Made aside from the vote?

I talked a little bit about my opinion on that here. I think it's teammate compatible.

That said, MR is probably getting my vote today.

Honestly you would have an easier time convincing me that Epi is teamed with Grogu/Juliets for lack of D1 interaction.

[Master Radishes]

Holy paprika, I just noticed an honest-to-goodness player salad. I think I saw someone reference it so I know I'm not the first to notice it; it just made me chuckle out loud when I noticed it.

@Made How much do you suspect Guillo and Tony?

my baddie three right now are Guillo Tutuu and MR with tony on my bench. I think almost every game i've played since i came back i've played with tony, and I think i've read him bad every game. don't think i've been right, so if he's on meta, i'm not likely to go there

On my forum I used to have a 'rule of three' that scum are always compelled to include 1 buddy in a list of 3. Obviously doesn't necessarily apply to everyone, but.

[juliets]

How do you feel about Epi?

Well, I've said my piece about him.

Could be wrong as I have far from lock town'ed him but I would somewhat doubt it.

Him being scum feels weird. I get the feeling if he were scum then he would be doing something different and more proactive rather than all those side comments he keeps making.

As well as my past belief that I think the way he went about voting Made and reacted to Made's flip, including his future comments about there being at EoD without any comment, are just unlikely to have been made by a made wolf partner.

What do you think about his handling of Made aside from the vote?

I talked a little bit about my opinion on that here. I think it's teammate compatible.

That said, MR is probably getting my vote today.

Honestly you would have an easier time convincing me that Epi is teamed with Grogu/Juliets for lack of D1 interaction.

I subbed in in the middle of day 1.

[Marmot]

How do you feel about Epi?

Well, I've said my piece about him.

Could be wrong as I have far from lock town'ed him but I would somewhat doubt it.

Him being scum feels weird. I get the feeling if he were scum then he would be doing something different and more proactive rather than all those side comments he keeps making.

As well as my past belief that I think the way he went about voting Made and reacted to Made's flip, including his future comments about there being at EoD without any comment, are just unlikely to have been made by a made wolf partner.

What do you think about his handling of Made aside from the vote?

I talked a little bit about my opinion on that here. I think it's teammate compatible.

That said, MR is probably getting my vote today.

Honestly you would have an easier time convincing me that Epi is teamed with Grogu/Juliets for lack of D1 interaction.

I don't understand your point here.

Linki: yeah, that salad is awful, and aside from Tutuu is a reasonable poe

[Master Radishes]

Also going through Made's iso...damn he talks to/about tutuu a lot. Like way more than anyone else.

Some of the intereactions individually don't feel partner-y, and by sheer volume relative to every other player in the game, I feel like they probably can't be aligned.

[Marmot]

Also going through Made's iso...damn he talks to/about tutuu a lot. Like way more than anyone else.

Some of the intereactions individually don't feel partner-y, and by sheer volume relative to every other player in the game, I feel like they probably can't be aligned.

Agreed. Especially because it looked like he tried to jump on and take advantage of the early suss tutuu was taking from elsewhere.

[Master Radishes]

Okay, I'm out of time for the night (unless my wife falls asleep quickly and I decide to play a bit more before I drift off).

I'm at:

TSP is town by virtue of vig claim.
Hally is town by virtue of how they handled me, which from my perspective felt like what I'd expect from them, considering our recent games together. Can elaborate if required.
Tutuu is probably town by spew.

Epi is probably my strongest other townlean, but I'm less confident than the above.

I've not made a concerted effort to read a few others like seanzie and juliets.

I don't know who I find particularly scummy anymore. Maybe still Guillo/Martin most, GTH. Still not a fan of LC either. But neither are super strong reads.

[MartinGG99]

I subbed in in the middle of day 1.

Yeah but that's almost 24 hours of time, and you made 29 posts in that length.

Epi made around 30 posts at that length as well.

[MartinGG99]

I don't understand your point here.

Scummates can often sub-consciously interact with their partners less than they normally to everyone else because they aren't trying to deceive their partners; they're trying to deceive the town. Exceptions given of course to instances to where a mafia member is on a leading vote train, for example.

[juliets]

I subbed in in the middle of day 1.

Yeah but that's almost 24 hours of time, and you made 29 posts in that length.

Epi made around 30 posts at that length as well.

Ok, but lol, I did not play this game for 24 hours Day 1. Why do you think I would have concentrated on Epi during the time I had?

[MartinGG99]

I subbed in in the middle of day 1.

Yeah but that's almost 24 hours of time, and you made 29 posts in that length.

Epi made around 30 posts at that length as well.

Ok, but lol, I did not play this game for 24 hours Day 1. Why do you think I would have concentrated on Epi during the time I had?

I wasn't seriously thinking you and epi were scum together.

I was simply making a point that I think I would of been convinced of that before they convince me that Epi and Made have high scummate compatibility.

[juliets]

I subbed in in the middle of day 1.

Yeah but that's almost 24 hours of time, and you made 29 posts in that length.

Epi made around 30 posts at that length as well.

Ok, but lol, I did not play this game for 24 hours Day 1. Why do you think I would have concentrated on Epi during the time I had?

I wasn't seriously thinking you and epi were scum together.

I was simply making a point that I think I would of been convinced of that before they convince me that Epi and Made have high scummate compatibility.

Oh I see what you're saying. I just misunderstood.

[Marmot]

I don't understand your point here.

Scummates can often sub-consciously interact with their partners less than they normally to everyone else because they aren't trying to deceive their partners; they're trying to deceive the town. Exceptions given of course to instances to where a mafia member is on a leading vote train, for example.

I agree, I'm just not sure why you pointed me at juliets rather than saying that.

[Hally]

what if the nanook death was due to some unknown unannounced compensation for reasons i dont know towards the wolves, and tony took the opportunity to claim it

nah

[Hally]

i dont want to clear scummy players off of mechanics or claims, i still want to kill tony over people like marmot/epi/seanzie etc

well we’re not killing a claimed vig today. and i think it’s unlikely that there would be a scum vig in a 13er. but we should leash his shot to be safe

Not wanting to get shot is >rand wolf and I’m not even joking

it’s not about whether you shoot me, it’s about whether you go rogue in general. and you shot nook so now i don’t trust you to not make another bad shot, whether it be me or someone i town read. so we’re going to give you a pool of people to shoot in that we all agree on and then you’re going to shoot in there and if you don’t we’re going to assume you’re a wolf