Fallout 2: A Post-Nuclear Mafia Game [AMERICA RISES]

[Jackofhearts2005]

I think Eldridge should claim today if they exist. Then we can verify their id if necessary and all that. huge plusses

Nein.

[TonyStarkPrime]

given this information do you think they're town because I have a strong opinion on this subject

care to elaborate your opinion?

not town but this is approaching 2/3s of my iso so I'm considering choosing a new topic

choose your topic. how about your take on LC?

Leaning towards at least not paired with esooa and probably just town. I think the LC side of the iso is very clean and I don't think they've played together, so LC doesn't strike me as the kind of person who'd treat a new scum partner like that. I think Urist was pedalling a theory that LC isn't enclave, but that didn't seem as sound to me.

[Poison]

big brain theory is that chop and daisy are both enclave.

:v i just noted down something I would do in future games, if I was a scum who could send msgs to others. if daisy is an enclave here then I'm gonna follow her lead and apply it in future.

[Spacedaisy]

I can't see a strong mafia reason to immediately understand what I'm saying with partial info that I gave, and to out themself as the sender when I said I believed they were bad.

Chop is town I think.

On the other hand: Esooa was (I believe) almost certainly killed by the Enclave. If your initial theory is true, the sender of the message omitted Esooa by mistake because they knew she was going to end up dead.

The Enclave has access to one of three potential roles in the game capable of sending an anonymous private message to a player.

This would be a convoluted and unfortunate coincidence if Chop is one of the two potential town roles with that ability.

Yes, the omission is what made me believe it was someone posing as Luke, they specifically mentioned the Brotherhood, so that was why I said I don’t believe they are Luke.

There was no good reason for Chop to claim that. Not for town or mafia. The difference is, town are more likely to throw in the towel in a moment of frustration or upset (like the realization their carefully crafted message had blown up in their face because they accidentally overlooked someone). Mafia are more likely to try and find a way to cover. In this case, all Chop had to do was not own up to sending it. No one but Jay and Chop would know.

So Sloonei, which do you think this was?

[Sloonei]

Is it realistic to think that the Enclave member holding that role would actually forget to include the name of their nightkill victim?

If this team is functioning like a normal team should, that message would have been peer reviewed in the team chat before it got sent out. Somebody should have noticed that Esooa's name was missing.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Like the argument against is at the end of the game someone can be like "psych I'm a named vanilla town" but with the slaver possibility in the game that feels too risky

Oooor maybe I should stop skimming the role list and actually read it cause I’ve forgotten what the slavers do.

Spoiler: show

Derpclear me.

[Alison]

I was town reading Jack at the end because of what TSP said: scum reading me is a way to keep me alive to Day 2.

Jack was pulling out quotes from me that are very very normal for me, maybe even town-indicative, and saying things like “there’s no way town Sloon says this.” Jack does not usually misread me like that. He rarely tries to read me confidently at all on Day 1. It was odd to see him being so confident and so wrong about me right off the bat.

I was also conscious of his champs confession to me: when he’s scum he’ encourage pressure on me as a way to get me to self-destruct. Those things combined to male me suspect him at first, but then I came to think he was maybe just trying to lengthen my life expectancy.

what made you switch your reasoning?

[Spacedaisy]

big brain theory is that chop and daisy are both enclave.

:v i just noted down something I would do in future games, if I was a scum who could send msgs to others. if daisy is an enclave here then I'm gonna follow her lead and apply it in future.

I wish this were true. It’s been a long time since I played an epic gambit.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Is it realistic to think that the Enclave member holding that role would actually forget to include the name of their nightkill victim?

If this team is functioning like a normal team should, that message would have been peer reviewed in the team chat before it got sent out. Somebody should have noticed that Esooa's name was missing.

Maybe wolves are dumbos.

[Sloonei]

I can't see a strong mafia reason to immediately understand what I'm saying with partial info that I gave, and to out themself as the sender when I said I believed they were bad.

Chop is town I think.

On the other hand: Esooa was (I believe) almost certainly killed by the Enclave. If your initial theory is true, the sender of the message omitted Esooa by mistake because they knew she was going to end up dead.

The Enclave has access to one of three potential roles in the game capable of sending an anonymous private message to a player.

This would be a convoluted and unfortunate coincidence if Chop is one of the two potential town roles with that ability.

Yes, the omission is what made me believe it was someone posing as Luke, they specifically mentioned the Brotherhood, so that was why I said I don’t believe they are Luke.

There was no good reason for Chop to claim that. Not for town or mafia. The difference is, town are more likely to throw in the towel in a moment of frustration or upset (like the realization their carefully crafted message had blown up in their face because they accidentally overlooked someone). Mafia are more likely to try and find a way to cover. In this case, all Chop had to do was not own up to sending it. No one but Jay and Chop would know.

So Sloonei, which do you think this was?

Undecided. This would be a blatant scum slip if your initial impression was correct. Those happen about once every 1000 games.

[Sloonei]

big brain theory is that chop and daisy are both enclave.

:v i just noted down something I would do in future games, if I was a scum who could send msgs to others. if daisy is an enclave here then I'm gonna follow her lead and apply it in future.

I wish this were true. It’s been a long time since I played an epic gambit.

I'm going to wish for it to be true while also reading you as town.

[Poison]

I can't see a strong mafia reason to immediately understand what I'm saying with partial info that I gave, and to out themself as the sender when I said I believed they were bad.

Chop is town I think.

On the other hand: Esooa was (I believe) almost certainly killed by the Enclave. If your initial theory is true, the sender of the message omitted Esooa by mistake because they knew she was going to end up dead.

The Enclave has access to one of three potential roles in the game capable of sending an anonymous private message to a player.

This would be a convoluted and unfortunate coincidence if Chop is one of the two potential town roles with that ability.

Yes, the omission is what made me believe it was someone posing as Luke, they specifically mentioned the Brotherhood, so that was why I said I don’t believe they are Luke.

There was no good reason for Chop to claim that. Not for town or mafia. The difference is, town are more likely to throw in the towel in a moment of frustration or upset (like the realization their carefully crafted message had blown up in their face because they accidentally overlooked someone). Mafia are more likely to try and find a way to cover. In this case, all Chop had to do was not own up to sending it. No one but Jay and Chop would know.

So Sloonei, which do you think this was?

i still don't understand why chop is town from this.

I need a break. will be back later.

[Alison]

Does spf kill esooa?

if it was strategically beneficial, yes

it probably would not be, since she was one of my most ardent defenders

I think it's strategically beneficial for Enclave SPF to kill Esooa because you're dating and you think she can read you. But I don't think you're the type of person to make that kind of kill - you didn't kill Hally early on in Grasslands for instance. You'd be more likely to go for the pocket because of that connection. So no I don't think you killed Esooa. So you aren't Enclave and you aren't Vault City (because Esooa was clearly trying to pocket you). I have no concerns about you.

[Spacedaisy]

This turned out to be a swiftj kick in the teeth, I thought I was so smart for catchibg that.

@ChopChop

[Sloonei]

I was town reading Jack at the end because of what TSP said: scum reading me is a way to keep me alive to Day 2.

Jack was pulling out quotes from me that are very very normal for me, maybe even town-indicative, and saying things like “there’s no way town Sloon says this.” Jack does not usually misread me like that. He rarely tries to read me confidently at all on Day 1. It was odd to see him being so confident and so wrong about me right off the bat.

I was also conscious of his champs confession to me: when he’s scum he’ encourage pressure on me as a way to get me to self-destruct. Those things combined to male me suspect him at first, but then I came to think he was maybe just trying to lengthen my life expectancy.

what made you switch your reasoning?

which time?

I suspected him. Then TSP suggested he was trying to give me cover, so I changed my mind. Then Jack said that wasn't what he was doing, so I changed my mind again. Then I questioned him for a while tonight and his last answer felt good, so I changed my mind yet again.

[Sloonei]

I can't see a strong mafia reason to immediately understand what I'm saying with partial info that I gave, and to out themself as the sender when I said I believed they were bad.

Chop is town I think.

On the other hand: Esooa was (I believe) almost certainly killed by the Enclave. If your initial theory is true, the sender of the message omitted Esooa by mistake because they knew she was going to end up dead.

The Enclave has access to one of three potential roles in the game capable of sending an anonymous private message to a player.

This would be a convoluted and unfortunate coincidence if Chop is one of the two potential town roles with that ability.

Yes, the omission is what made me believe it was someone posing as Luke, they specifically mentioned the Brotherhood, so that was why I said I don’t believe they are Luke.

There was no good reason for Chop to claim that. Not for town or mafia. The difference is, town are more likely to throw in the towel in a moment of frustration or upset (like the realization their carefully crafted message had blown up in their face because they accidentally overlooked someone). Mafia are more likely to try and find a way to cover. In this case, all Chop had to do was not own up to sending it. No one but Jay and Chop would know.

So Sloonei, which do you think this was?

i still don't understand why chop is town from this.

I need a break. will be back later.

Because he claimed to be the one to send the message. If he's a wolf, he has zero reason to do that. If he's town, he doesn't really have much reason to do it either, but it's less damning if he does.

[Sloonei]

Occam's Razor says Chop is mafia.

[Spacedaisy]

I can't see a strong mafia reason to immediately understand what I'm saying with partial info that I gave, and to out themself as the sender when I said I believed they were bad.

Chop is town I think.

On the other hand: Esooa was (I believe) almost certainly killed by the Enclave. If your initial theory is true, the sender of the message omitted Esooa by mistake because they knew she was going to end up dead.

The Enclave has access to one of three potential roles in the game capable of sending an anonymous private message to a player.

This would be a convoluted and unfortunate coincidence if Chop is one of the two potential town roles with that ability.

Yes, the omission is what made me believe it was someone posing as Luke, they specifically mentioned the Brotherhood, so that was why I said I don’t believe they are Luke.

There was no good reason for Chop to claim that. Not for town or mafia. The difference is, town are more likely to throw in the towel in a moment of frustration or upset (like the realization their carefully crafted message had blown up in their face because they accidentally overlooked someone). Mafia are more likely to try and find a way to cover. In this case, all Chop had to do was not own up to sending it. No one but Jay and Chop would know.

So Sloonei, which do you think this was?

i still don't understand why chop is town from this.

I need a break. will be back later.

If you fucked up like that as mafia, Would your first instinct be to claim it in the thread instantly? Or would it be to go into your wolf chat and freak out to your teammates? At what point would it make sense for a wolf chop to claim that? It doesn’t. It doesn’t make sense for a town chop to do it either, but town tend to act more out of frustration when things go down hill because they don’t have a team to talk to and figure out what to do.

[Spacedaisy]

I disagree

[Alison]

I was town reading Jack at the end because of what TSP said: scum reading me is a way to keep me alive to Day 2.

Jack was pulling out quotes from me that are very very normal for me, maybe even town-indicative, and saying things like “there’s no way town Sloon says this.” Jack does not usually misread me like that. He rarely tries to read me confidently at all on Day 1. It was odd to see him being so confident and so wrong about me right off the bat.

I was also conscious of his champs confession to me: when he’s scum he’ encourage pressure on me as a way to get me to self-destruct. Those things combined to male me suspect him at first, but then I came to think he was maybe just trying to lengthen my life expectancy.

what made you switch your reasoning?

which time?

I suspected him. Then TSP suggested he was trying to give me cover, so I changed my mind. Then Jack said that wasn't what he was doing, so I changed my mind again. Then I questioned him for a while tonight and his last answer felt good, so I changed my mind yet again.

do you mind giving me a look at which answer of Jack's felt good enough for you to change your mind on him?

[Alison]

I inherently distrust "I was just trying to keep X alive by scumreading them" claims because I don't think I've ever seen someone do that for another player as far as I can remember, but I've seen the argument applied falsely many times.

[Spacedaisy]

I’ve got to finish a futurama episode and get some sleep. I’m playing the, “I’m not even going to pretend to catch up” game and play from where I am whenever I come in. I’ll probably be busy tomorrow night (writing a paper due Friday) but I’ll try to come in again at some point tomorrow.

I feel like I came in and blew up the thread. Guess I’ve done enough damage for one night

[Sloonei]

I was town reading Jack at the end because of what TSP said: scum reading me is a way to keep me alive to Day 2.

Jack was pulling out quotes from me that are very very normal for me, maybe even town-indicative, and saying things like “there’s no way town Sloon says this.” Jack does not usually misread me like that. He rarely tries to read me confidently at all on Day 1. It was odd to see him being so confident and so wrong about me right off the bat.

I was also conscious of his champs confession to me: when he’s scum he’ encourage pressure on me as a way to get me to self-destruct. Those things combined to male me suspect him at first, but then I came to think he was maybe just trying to lengthen my life expectancy.

what made you switch your reasoning?

which time?

I suspected him. Then TSP suggested he was trying to give me cover, so I changed my mind. Then Jack said that wasn't what he was doing, so I changed my mind again. Then I questioned him for a while tonight and his last answer felt good, so I changed my mind yet again.

do you mind giving me a look at which answer of Jack's felt good enough for you to change your mind on him?

here

[TonyStarkPrime]

so let's say no one claims. what happens next: I would try to force a claim out of whoever sent it. if it's town, they probably claim. if it's a wolf, they probably ... don't? let it go?

[Alison]

I was town reading Jack at the end because of what TSP said: scum reading me is a way to keep me alive to Day 2.

Jack was pulling out quotes from me that are very very normal for me, maybe even town-indicative, and saying things like “there’s no way town Sloon says this.” Jack does not usually misread me like that. He rarely tries to read me confidently at all on Day 1. It was odd to see him being so confident and so wrong about me right off the bat.

I was also conscious of his champs confession to me: when he’s scum he’ encourage pressure on me as a way to get me to self-destruct. Those things combined to male me suspect him at first, but then I came to think he was maybe just trying to lengthen my life expectancy.

what made you switch your reasoning?

which time?

I suspected him. Then TSP suggested he was trying to give me cover, so I changed my mind. Then Jack said that wasn't what he was doing, so I changed my mind again. Then I questioned him for a while tonight and his last answer felt good, so I changed my mind yet again.

do you mind giving me a look at which answer of Jack's felt good enough for you to change your mind on him?

here

I did not see that post. That is a good answer. I'm going to continue my catchup.

[Sloonei]

I inherently distrust "I was just trying to keep X alive by scumreading them" claims because I don't think I've ever seen someone do that for another player as far as I can remember, but I've seen the argument applied falsely many times.

To be clear, Jack never gave any indication that this is what he was doing. He said he was doing a thing. At the same time, he started suspecting me for things that I felt he had no business suspecting me for. I whined about it. Then TSP made the suggestion that "suspecting Sloonei is a tactic to keep him alive until Day 2", so I started looking at Jack through that lens, incorrectly.

Also for the record, I'm fairly certain I remember Epi using that strategy on a few occasions back in the day.

[Alison]

I inherently distrust "I was just trying to keep X alive by scumreading them" claims because I don't think I've ever seen someone do that for another player as far as I can remember, but I've seen the argument applied falsely many times.

To be clear, Jack never gave any indication that this is what he was doing. He said he was doing a thing. At the same time, he started suspecting me for things that I felt he had no business suspecting me for. I whined about it. Then TSP made the suggestion that "suspecting Sloonei is a tactic to keep him alive until Day 2", so I started looking at Jack through that lens, incorrectly.

Also for the record, I'm fairly certain I remember Epi using that strategy on a few occasions back in the day.

My opinion is that if someone is so good at the game you're going to lie about reads just to keep them alive a bit longer then they're good enough at the game to solve it within the current day phase before the mafia get a crack at them. In which case you should townread them and let them be a town leader and lead the charge on scum, and then sheep their legacy after they die.

[Sloonei]

I’ve got to finish a futurama episode and get some sleep. I’m playing the, “I’m not even going to pretend to catch up” game and play from where I am whenever I come in. I’ll probably be busy tomorrow night (writing a paper due Friday) but I’ll try to come in again at some point tomorrow.

I feel like I came in and blew up the thread. Guess I’ve done enough damage for one night

[Alison]

I have placed by vote on Sloonei.

I will make no further posts.

If you want to throw don't sheep me.

Hypothetically what if I were to tell you that I'm a vigilante and if you intend to continue behaving like this then I am going to shoot you at night to resolve your alignment and sheep you if you flip town

[Sloonei]

I have placed by vote on Sloonei.

I will make no further posts.

If you want to throw don't sheep me.

Hypothetically what if I were to tell you that I'm a vigilante and if you intend to continue behaving like this then I am going to shoot you at night to resolve your alignment and sheep you if you flip town

I don't think you are serious about the sheeping part, at least, but as a general warning to everyone out there: please do not sheep mac's reads right now. He is not following closely.

[Alison]

If I were to shoot Mac and he flipped town what do you think would explain his continued tunnel on you given the fact that he is town?

[Sloonei]

anyway my vote is on marmot because I just know I should be lock town this game, but I received too much suspicion on Day 1 so somebody who was on my case has to have been a no good dirty liar. I've checked Jack off the list, signed a peace treaty with spf, and am not taking Mac's read seriously for the moment. That leaves Marmot. And maybe somebody else, but I forget or wasn't paying enough attention.

[Alison]

Still think Jack could easily be scum here but I’m not gonna rush the gun on anything yet.

Why not? Isn't your name "chop chop"?

Yeah my thoughts go Chop Chop!
My vote goes Chop Chop on the hand!
No use my power yet!

Is this a PR claim?

Chop claiming PR as scum here is a little weird.

[Sloonei]

If I were to shoot Mac and he flipped town what do you think would explain his continued tunnel on you given the fact that he is town?

He is MacDougall.

[Alison]

anyway my vote is on marmot because I just know I should be lock town this game, but I received too much suspicion on Day 1 so somebody who was on my case has to have been a no good dirty liar. I've checked Jack off the list, signed a peace treaty with spf, and am not taking Mac's read seriously for the moment. That leaves Marmot. And maybe somebody else, but I forget or wasn't paying enough attention.

I am currently catching up. At the point of my catchup you were voting SPF and thought she was scum. What is your read on SPF now?

[TonyStarkPrime]

Still think Jack could easily be scum here but I’m not gonna rush the gun on anything yet.

Why not? Isn't your name "chop chop"?

Yeah my thoughts go Chop Chop!
My vote goes Chop Chop on the hand!
No use my power yet!

Is this a PR claim?

Chop claiming PR as scum here is a little weird.

oh just you wait

[Sloonei]

anyway my vote is on marmot because I just know I should be lock town this game, but I received too much suspicion on Day 1 so somebody who was on my case has to have been a no good dirty liar. I've checked Jack off the list, signed a peace treaty with spf, and am not taking Mac's read seriously for the moment. That leaves Marmot. And maybe somebody else, but I forget or wasn't paying enough attention.

I am currently catching up. At the point of my catchup you were voting SPF and thought she was scum. What is your read on SPF now?

we mindmelded on poison earlier, so that was nice. She is definitely not Vault City, and I liked your argument for her to be excluded from Enclave consideration as well, but I am not as confident in it as you are just yet. I feel like I am trending toward a town read on her, but I can't shake the very jarring early read I had on her. Both of the previous two times we were town together, I was able to find her almost immediately. But those games were a different environment.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I have added flavor to the end of night post (click here). I am sure many will rush to read it just as I so reliably read flavor when I am playing Mafia.

[Sloonei]

fuck i really just said "mindmelded"

[Alison]

okay who wants to claim killing c4 like now

I did.

I was gonna delay the claim to see if anyone wanted to push me/so I could play the "I'm a vigilante" game with Mac, but I don't really see that panning out anyways.

[Sloonei]

okay who wants to claim killing c4 like now

I did.

I was gonna delay the claim to see if anyone wanted to push me/so I could play the "I'm a vigilante" game with Mac, but I don't really see that panning out anyways.

I suspected it was you. Alison lock town.

[Urist]

[VOTE: marmot] aubergine

[Alison]

You know how I was sure c4 was an outed wolf but didn't vote him and had no real interest in pushing him? It's because the PM instructing JJJ to kill him at the end of D1 was already in my inbox. I was more interested in BK vs Jack. Unfortunately I was wrong about both c4 and BK and I may well be wrong on Jack (and I was also wrong on Esooa), so I'm going to take my time to read up and reformulate my understanding of the game.

[Alison]

i think tonystarkprime is town

Why? I don't like his theory about Jack's motivations for scumreading Sloonei, I think it doesn't make sense and while this by itself isn't proof that TSP is scum it certainly doesn't help. I've had a suspicion of him throughout most of D1 and he seems like he's trying to skate by. Opening D2 with a discussion of mech instead of actual solving isn't townie.

[Sloonei]

You know how I was sure c4 was an outed wolf but didn't vote him and had no real interest in pushing him? It's because the PM instructing JJJ to kill him at the end of D1 was already in my inbox. I was more interested in BK vs Jack. Unfortunately I was wrong about both c4 and BK and I may well be wrong on Jack (and I was also wrong on Esooa), so I'm going to take my time to read up and reformulate my understanding of the game.

I also feel like I was overwhelmingly wrong on Day 1. Why do you think we're so wrong this game? let us all brainstorm

[Urist]

[VOTE: UNVOTE] aubergine

just going to sleep on this actually

[Alison]

You know how I was sure c4 was an outed wolf but didn't vote him and had no real interest in pushing him? It's because the PM instructing JJJ to kill him at the end of D1 was already in my inbox. I was more interested in BK vs Jack. Unfortunately I was wrong about both c4 and BK and I may well be wrong on Jack (and I was also wrong on Esooa), so I'm going to take my time to read up and reformulate my understanding of the game.

I also feel like I was overwhelmingly wrong on Day 1. Why do you think we're so wrong this game? let us all brainstorm

The most likely reasoning is that this Bread Mafia 2 and the wolves have all gone deep.

Let us say that you are town and SPF is town. All of us were dead wrong Day 1. That's very unusual. If all of us are town then we are severely misclearing someone and that person is pulling our strings.

Who do you trust the most that could be fooling you?

[Sloonei]

You know how I was sure c4 was an outed wolf but didn't vote him and had no real interest in pushing him? It's because the PM instructing JJJ to kill him at the end of D1 was already in my inbox. I was more interested in BK vs Jack. Unfortunately I was wrong about both c4 and BK and I may well be wrong on Jack (and I was also wrong on Esooa), so I'm going to take my time to read up and reformulate my understanding of the game.

I also feel like I was overwhelmingly wrong on Day 1. Why do you think we're so wrong this game? let us all brainstorm

The most likely reasoning is that this Bread Mafia 2 and the wolves have all gone deep.

Let us say that you are town and SPF is town. All of us were dead wrong Day 1. That's very unusual. If all of us are town then we are severely misclearing someone and that person is pulling our strings.

Who do you trust the most that could be fooling you?

Epi

[Alison]

We have 4 dead players and 3 are Wastelanders. Do we assume that's the largest faction, or do they just have garbage luck?

wastelanders and enclave are the largest factions according to the mod. wastelanders are all vt.

elbridge should not claim. like wtf.

Too late.

[Alison]

i think i know who eldridge is anyway LOL

here's a spicy take

[VOTE: alison] aubergine

Who did you think it was? You obviously didn't think it was me.