Magic the Gathering Mafia - Game Over - Mafia has won!

[Enrique]

What we need is a list of trustworthy individuals. People who under no circumstances should be killed today.

If you nominate someone, you need to be able to show why you believe that person is a civilian.

Than all that's required is we coordinate votes accordingly and make mafia shoot among the elimination pool.

I think the optimal play is to leave just one person with 0 votes (and to have that person not covering anyone else), so we should try to do that, if possible. That way, if the mafia want to tie the vote to save the person at 0, they have to out one of their own.

I think this is a really bad idea. We're already unlikely to get scum this way (especially if they're voting for each other), this just makes sure that we end up with nothing... the one played we leave at 0 would have to be 100% lock scum. Leaving 2-3 players at 0 even if we end up lynching a townie at least gives us something about how they're deciding ties, who they're scrambling to save, and just how they're manipulating the poll in general. We're never gonna get a consensus of who should be the one person everyone thinks should go.

We should still fuck around with it and find the best way to catch scum from this poll but I don't think your suggestion is how. It sounds likelier that we'd just fuck somebody over for no gain that way.

I'm pretty sure the correct select is to vote "No Chop" and everybody wins.

If the host hadn't told us that No Chop didn't work today I would even consider it. There's basically no way that a townie doesn't die today.

So is the play then to just single out the most wolfy person we can find and nobody votes them? If we're right someone will have to move to save and therefore out, if we're wrong we've eliminated someone that was a likely chop anyways.

You just quoted me giving my opinion on that, lol. I think I sounded more confident than I actually am anyway. The flip side is that we can't actually lynch scum if we leave a few candidates (unless they're all teammates and we somehow collectively figured it all out already).

My vote's gonna stay on Jack. I don't know if we can actually work out a collective solution but we should at least make sure our town reads aren't in the pool.

[MacDougall]

Thats a very out of character opportunistic little snipe.

Who cares? Is HK mafia or not?

I do not like the way you are making me feel in this game. I do not enjoy it. I would like for you to at least attempt to consider this when engaging me moving forward.

I don't know who the Mafia are. I am attempting to play the game and solve it. Sidelining my pushes and interjecting in this manner is disruptive to my genuine attempts to solve the game which is contradicting your wincon.

[hollowkatt]

[VOTE: enrique] aubergine

[Epignosis]

Thats a very out of character opportunistic little snipe.

Who cares? Is HK mafia or not?

I do not like the way you are making me feel in this game. I do not enjoy it. I would like for you to at least attempt to consider this when engaging me moving forward.

I don't know who the Mafia are. I am attempting to play the game and solve it. Sidelining my pushes and interjecting in this manner is disruptive to my genuine attempts to solve the game which is contradicting your wincon.

Very well. I apologize. Carry on.

[Guillotine]

@Epignosis has been permanently Marked! The mark is either real or fake. If the following conditions are all met:
-Epignosis gets chopped at any point during the game
-The mark is real (and not fake)
-The person who marked Epignosis is still alive
-The person who marked Epignosis has the opposite alignment of Epignosis

Then the person who marked Epignosis will receive the following reward during the night:



Elaborations:
-Fleeting means that it must be used immediately as soon as it is acquired. You can choose not to use it, but then it disappears

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Guillotine has been permanently Marked! The mark is either real or fake. If the following conditions are all met:
-Guillotine gets chopped at any point during the game
-The mark is real (and not fake)
-The person who marked Guillotine is still alive
-The person who marked Guillotine has the opposite alignment of Guillotine

Then the person who marked Guillotine will receive the following reward during the night:



Elaborations:
-Fleeting means that it must be used immediately as soon as it is acquired. You can choose not to use it, but then it disappears

I think this was a town action to protect both Epi and Myself. A town action that would give the player vig shots if we died, I think this player townread us both and this action was a way to secure our survival, at least until mafia found out who this player is, or should we die, the player would vig shot suspects off our flips.

It gotta be because why mafia would spew Epignosis and myself town with this action? It clearly says right there that if the mark is real and the player who marked us is of our opposite alignment... never mind, OPPOSITE ALIGNMENT! God! I'm so dumb.



Ok so, it is a mafia action. So why mafia would spew us town just two get two vig shots?

What if one mark is fake and the other one is real? I know I'm town and I know wolves fear my PGO abilities and they need to get rid of me during the day? If Epignosis was not uncounterclaimed as Marmot's mason partner, I would believe that Epignosis is the mafia here then.

How?

Mafia decide to mark their teammate and me, they know they won't get a vig shot if Epignosis is chopped, so the plan is to spew him town with the mark and claiming he is the mason partner so he is actually not chopped!
Then mark me for real and get me mischopped, getting rid of the PGO and and getting a vig shot off of my death. Win-Win for mafia.

But Epignosis has not been COUNTERCLAIMED by anyone as mason, so epignosis is the other mason thus he is town too.

So why did mafia do it? they were counting on getting us mischopped eventually. They were planning to set us up so we'd get chopped ignoring our marks? How? They must be really confident about their abilities to get us chopped in spite of this curse placed upon us by them!!. Are wolves this arrogant? are wolves this stupid? If not. Then what's the deal? Is there more?

What if the action is from town but both marks are fake? Would this scare wolves off? Wolves need to reach parity and this action would not stop them. Nah.

What if the action is from town and he marked us both believing we were w/w? If this is the case, this townie needs one of us to flip to confirm their suspicion in the hopes of getting a vig shot (which in my case they never will). Further more, a curse is viewed as a scummy action if not claimed. If this action came from town and thought we were wolves, he didn't think it through because he spewed us town, we are not getting chopped, he is not getting answers and in their eyes, it would have helped wolves if we were mafia aligned. Would a townie be this stupid to use an action like this on us to get two vig shots? I don't think so!

I'm tinfoiling a lot here. What is the simplest explanation then? Who is most likely the marker? Town or Mafia?

---------------------

Two, I thought the silencing came with the curse but no, I was silenced separately. So I got marked and silenced. Assholes! I know you are doing your jobs but... you are assholes wolves. You precisely silence the guy who can't keep his mouth shut.

-----------------------

If you guys townread Macdougall I can place a vote on him that will count as three, but then he gotta place his vote on me to save me as well.

Oh never mind, I'm out of posts... the next vote will be 11th post and I get shot. So the only way I'd attempt to save Mac is if he is worth saving.
------------------------

The curse mark says that if I get chopped (yeeted) then whoever placed their mark on me will get a vig shot, so don't chop me but if you ever wolf read me, day vig me, don't give whoever is doing this a vig shot by chopping me, or night vig me.. but then you'll die too. Meh

This is post #10

[MacDougall]

Guillo why did you go on to humour that the marker is town again after you already clarified they can't be because it states they have the opposite alignment to you?

[Epignosis]

Guillo why did you go on to humour that the marker is town again after you already clarified they can't be because it states they have the opposite alignment to you?

It's post ten. He's done talking.

[Epignosis]

I don't think mafia submitted those powers.

The simplest explanation is a civilian who suspect us did that.

[MacDougall]

Guillo and Epi marked
Guillo and Mac targeted to amplify our vote power on each other
Epi spewed town by the scum kill

I said before that the Marmot kill only makes sense if the Mafia knew he was mason but now I am wondering because that would mean the Mafia spewed Epi clear on purpose. And marking Epi and Guillo at the same time spews Guillo clear on purpose too. Killing Marmot knowing his role would be quite a misplay.

So they just killed Marmot not knowing his role? But why? Why Marmot and not Dunya the neighboriser? Or Epi? Or Mac the outed vigi? It doesn't make sense...

Help.

[MacDougall]

I don't think mafia submitted those powers.

The simplest explanation is a civilian who suspect us did that.

-The person who marked Epignosis has the opposite alignment of Epignosis

Says it on the tin.

[MacDougall]

Wait I misread. Carry on.

[MacDougall]

Yes ok that's a town role for sure.

[Epignosis]

I don't think mafia submitted those powers.

The simplest explanation is a civilian who suspect us did that.

-The person who marked Epignosis has the opposite alignment of Epignosis

Says it on the tin.

No?

That's a conditional statement.

[MacDougall]

Could be a 3p role tho.

[MacDougall]

Wait no it can't. Just a town role.

[MacDougall]

If I had to guess I'd say its Falcon tbh.

[Epignosis]

I think it's a civilian.

So with that in mind, I think it's valuable if the civilian who marked us claimed. That would help narrow things down.

[MacDougall]

So the Maf are cool with letting player's town clear each other? Huh.


Ya, Epi & Guillo both scum for me.

Cuz this

[MacDougall]

I don't particularly think anyone else would target you two

[Epignosis]

I don't particularly think anyone else would target you two

You're probably right. I'd still like to hear it from Falcon.

Wonder where Falcon got the mana to perform that move. It wasn't from me, you can be damn sure.

[MacDougall]

Urist didn't do it. Cuz he said he did a protown thing after he saw you get townfirmed.

I feel like it's just Falcon.

[MacDougall]

@falcon45ca wanna claim the marks?

[MacDougall]

So that all being said. I still have question marks over the Marmot kill. If it was a town vigi they should claim imo.

[MacDougall]

It feels like a very rand mafia kill.

Very few teams make sense to have agreed to that kill.

Like it almost spews all the syndicate regulars town to me.

[falcon45ca]

@falcon45ca wanna claim the marks?

Wasn't me. I've not been given any mana, aside from the 3 I generate. I fireballed someone N1 and N2

[MacDougall]

dunya
Epignosis
Guillotine
hollowkatt
Jackofhearts2005
Long Con
DrWilgy
Enrique
MacDougall
tedxtr
Urist
falcon45ca
Justplayingitcool
112

This is my current rainbow. This time, yellow (Enrique) is null, whereas orange is middling (could go either way)

I am encouraged to simply sheep Marmot entirely from this point on.

[MacDougall]

@falcon45ca wanna claim the marks?

Wasn't me. I've not been given any mana, aside from the 3 I generate. I fireballed someone N1 and N2

What does Fireball do?

[MacDougall]

Anyone green or higher in Marmot's list would almost always veto shooting him. I know that seems simplistic but I feel like there are better kills for all 7 of them to make than Marmot. None of them as mafia would feel threatened by him and in fact would feel like they're better off with him alive.

[Enrique]

[VOTE: enrique] aubergine

I think JPIC and Wilgy might be as good a pool as we're gonna get (if Guill or Jack or whoever votes Mac).

@Epignosis has been permanently Marked! The mark is either real or fake. If the following conditions are all met:
-Epignosis gets chopped at any point during the game
-The mark is real (and not fake)
-The person who marked Epignosis is still alive
-The person who marked Epignosis has the opposite alignment of Epignosis

Then the person who marked Epignosis will receive the following reward during the night:



Elaborations:
-Fleeting means that it must be used immediately as soon as it is acquired. You can choose not to use it, but then it disappears

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Guillotine has been permanently Marked! The mark is either real or fake. If the following conditions are all met:
-Guillotine gets chopped at any point during the game
-The mark is real (and not fake)
-The person who marked Guillotine is still alive
-The person who marked Guillotine has the opposite alignment of Guillotine

Then the person who marked Guillotine will receive the following reward during the night:



Elaborations:
-Fleeting means that it must be used immediately as soon as it is acquired. You can choose not to use it, but then it disappears

I think this was a town action to protect both Epi and Myself. A town action that would give the player vig shots if we died, I think this player townread us both and this action was a way to secure our survival, at least until mafia found out who this player is, or should we die, the player would vig shot suspects off our flips.

It gotta be because why mafia would spew Epignosis and myself town with this action? It clearly says right there that if the mark is real and the player who marked us is of our opposite alignment... never mind, OPPOSITE ALIGNMENT! God! I'm so dumb.



Ok so, it is a mafia action. So why mafia would spew us town just two get two vig shots?

What if one mark is fake and the other one is real? I know I'm town and I know wolves fear my PGO abilities and they need to get rid of me during the day? If Epignosis was not uncounterclaimed as Marmot's mason partner, I would believe that Epignosis is the mafia here then.

How?

Mafia decide to mark their teammate and me, they know they won't get a vig shot if Epignosis is chopped, so the plan is to spew him town with the mark and claiming he is the mason partner so he is actually not chopped!
Then mark me for real and get me mischopped, getting rid of the PGO and and getting a vig shot off of my death. Win-Win for mafia.

But Epignosis has not been COUNTERCLAIMED by anyone as mason, so epignosis is the other mason thus he is town too.

So why did mafia do it? they were counting on getting us mischopped eventually. They were planning to set us up so we'd get chopped ignoring our marks? How? They must be really confident about their abilities to get us chopped in spite of this curse placed upon us by them!!. Are wolves this arrogant? are wolves this stupid? If not. Then what's the deal? Is there more?

What if the action is from town but both marks are fake? Would this scare wolves off? Wolves need to reach parity and this action would not stop them. Nah.

What if the action is from town and he marked us both believing we were w/w? If this is the case, this townie needs one of us to flip to confirm their suspicion in the hopes of getting a vig shot (which in my case they never will). Further more, a curse is viewed as a scummy action if not claimed. If this action came from town and thought we were wolves, he didn't think it through because he spewed us town, we are not getting chopped, he is not getting answers and in their eyes, it would have helped wolves if we were mafia aligned. Would a townie be this stupid to use an action like this on us to get two vig shots? I don't think so!

I'm tinfoiling a lot here. What is the simplest explanation then? Who is most likely the marker? Town or Mafia?

---------------------

Two, I thought the silencing came with the curse but no, I was silenced separately. So I got marked and silenced. Assholes! I know you are doing your jobs but... you are assholes wolves. You precisely silence the guy who can't keep his mouth shut.

-----------------------

If you guys townread Macdougall I can place a vote on him that will count as three, but then he gotta place his vote on me to save me as well.

Oh never mind, I'm out of posts... the next vote will be 11th post and I get shot. So the only way I'd attempt to save Mac is if he is worth saving.
------------------------

The curse mark says that if I get chopped (yeeted) then whoever placed their mark on me will get a vig shot, so don't chop me but if you ever wolf read me, day vig me, don't give whoever is doing this a vig shot by chopping me, or night vig me.. but then you'll die too. Meh

This is post #10

This is a good post. I had a couple of ideas that don't match this completely but I like the open thought process.

Here's what I thought: if I was a town and I had the marking power, and in this exercise I'm assuming one of the marks is real and one of them is fake because they came together and each has a 50/50 chance, I would have real-marked whoever I thought was bad and fake-marked a lock townie / someone I trusted. The contrast should've been starker anyway so if this is how it worked then I think the marker failed at making clear which was which. I thought Epi looked pretty good yesterday because of the whole mana donation thing, but he almost died so a bunch of people clearly thought the opposite. About Guill I'm just gonna say.... like half the notes I've taken on this game are about him, and I haven't arrived at anything conclusive, but I think it's good? lol. He's not clearly enough on either side for this to work.

If the marker is bad then it's about the WIFOM. They would want to use the power, so they would real-mark someone they thought they could lynch (Epi looked kinda easy before the Marmot reveal). It's also coupled with the reverse-lynch though so they have greater lynch-manipulation than usual. The fake mark is harder. It could just be someone to take the fall when the other one flipped civ (I don't think the host mentioned if the mark is revealed as real or fake with the flip), or it could just be hiding a teammate in plain sight. There's no easy answer to what's going on if it's this option, but Guill looks fine, and I wouldn't yeet him just for this.

It could also be a coincidence, they could be from two different players, they could both be fake, both be real, etc. This is why I wasn't sure if it was even worth talking about, like, if we're not gonna lynch them then how much does it matter? Epi is essentially a confirmed civ and there isn't a case on Guill, so unless that changes we should just worry about the other thing.

[MacDougall]

Would I kill Marmot?

I ... don't think so. But maybe if my teammates were very keen to kill him. I would probably just veto it and kill Epi or Dunya over him though.

[falcon45ca]

dunya
Epignosis
Guillotine
hollowkatt
Jackofhearts2005
Long Con
DrWilgy
Enrique
MacDougall
tedxtr
Urist
falcon45ca
Justplayingitcool
112

This is my current rainbow. This time, yellow (Enrique) is null, whereas orange is middling (could go either way)

I am encouraged to simply sheep Marmot entirely from this point on.

Why? His voting record was 2 townies. Hate when players sheep the dead, it's pretty wolfy IMO

[MacDougall]

Id like to just pool JPIC and 112 as they are the bottom 2 on Marmot's list.

[Urist]

[VOTE: 112] aubergine
Since nobody else is likely to do it.

why do you town read 112?

Mostly based on Esooa's lack of engagement past the mech discussion. I struggle to imagine scumEsooa not getting into the game.

Someone else said Esooa doesn't like to roll scum, and would have more trouble engaging or something?

I don't think anyone said that; you'd have to point that out.

[VOTE: 112] aubergine
Since nobody else is likely to do it.

why do you town read 112?

Mostly based on Esooa's lack of engagement past the mech discussion. I struggle to imagine scumEsooa not getting into the game.

have you played many games with Esooa at all? Because I have quite a few as Wolf buds, Wolf vs her Town, Town buds, and one Town HK Vs wolf Esooa and lemme tell you, her play this game matches none of those.
I would not alignment read her for activity/non-activity at all.
And content wise I'd say she's at best NULL.

I guess I wasn't fair though, I don't want to know why you town read the slot, I want to know why you town read 112 specifically.

I don't specifically town-read 112. Do you want me to go through his iso and find reasons to town read him? Because I could probably do that for anyone here.
That said, there are a couple of things he's said that I don't think he'd say as wolf. Such as offering his mana to people.

---

@112 you can't use your ability without getting two extra colourless mana is that right? If so, can you send me one colourless tonight?

So is 112 coasting off of your read on Bolas then? Cause I kinda think the way you're approaching that slot is weird and I can't wrap my head around it.

Pretty sure the most I've said is that I'd prefer he didn't die today. I don't even understand why people have him as scum, it seems like it's probably just because he's not wallposting. Do you specifically suspect 112 for some reason?

[falcon45ca]

@falcon45ca wanna claim the marks?

Wasn't me. I've not been given any mana, aside from the 3 I generate. I fireballed someone N1 and N2

What does Fireball do?

Does damage to a player, kinda like a fireball IRL

[MacDougall]

dunya
Epignosis
Guillotine
hollowkatt
Jackofhearts2005
Long Con
DrWilgy
Enrique
MacDougall
tedxtr
Urist
falcon45ca
Justplayingitcool
112

This is my current rainbow. This time, yellow (Enrique) is null, whereas orange is middling (could go either way)

I am encouraged to simply sheep Marmot entirely from this point on.

Why? His voting record was 2 townies. Hate when players sheep the dead, it's pretty wolfy IMO

If you'd followed my progressing thoughts you'd understand. I am trying to understand the purpose of killing him and the best I can get to is that he had great reads.

You can't criticise him for his Ted vote btw. He voted to save his mason partner and his vote was on JPIC prior.

[Epignosis]

dunya
Epignosis
Guillotine
hollowkatt
Jackofhearts2005
Long Con
DrWilgy
Enrique
MacDougall
tedxtr
Urist
falcon45ca
Justplayingitcool
112

This is my current rainbow. This time, yellow (Enrique) is null, whereas orange is middling (could go either way)

I am encouraged to simply sheep Marmot entirely from this point on.

Why? His voting record was 2 townies. Hate when players sheep the dead, it's pretty wolfy IMO

Except we've agreed at almost every point, so then it isn't "sheeping the dead," as you call it.

[MacDougall]

@falcon45ca wanna claim the marks?

Wasn't me. I've not been given any mana, aside from the 3 I generate. I fireballed someone N1 and N2

What does Fireball do?

Does damage to a player, kinda like a fireball IRL

You should out who you targeted and how much damage imo.

[MacDougall]

The mafia have the ability to determine damage. Town doesn't. Any information on who may have damage on them is beneficial. For instance if Epi has damage and we have a healer we need to know.

[Epignosis]

A fireball in real life.

That's funny.

[MacDougall]

I think we should get hard claims from JPIC, Falcon and 112.

[falcon45ca]

dunya
Epignosis
Guillotine
hollowkatt
Jackofhearts2005
Long Con
DrWilgy
Enrique
MacDougall
tedxtr
Urist
falcon45ca
Justplayingitcool
112

This is my current rainbow. This time, yellow (Enrique) is null, whereas orange is middling (could go either way)

I am encouraged to simply sheep Marmot entirely from this point on.

Why? His voting record was 2 townies. Hate when players sheep the dead, it's pretty wolfy IMO

If you'd followed my progressing thoughts you'd understand. I am trying to understand the purpose of killing him and the best I can get to is that he had great reads.

You can't criticise him for his Ted vote btw. He voted to save his mason partner and his vote was on JPIC prior.

So what if the Maf aren't in his scum list at all, and they hit him so townies would push his scum reads?

[falcon45ca]

@falcon45ca wanna claim the marks?

Wasn't me. I've not been given any mana, aside from the 3 I generate. I fireballed someone N1 and N2

What does Fireball do?

Does damage to a player, kinda like a fireball IRL

You should out who you targeted and how much damage imo.

Why not let the Maf use their Lifescope instead?

[MacDougall]

dunya
Epignosis
Guillotine
hollowkatt
Jackofhearts2005
Long Con
DrWilgy
Enrique
MacDougall
tedxtr
Urist
falcon45ca
Justplayingitcool
112

This is my current rainbow. This time, yellow (Enrique) is null, whereas orange is middling (could go either way)

I am encouraged to simply sheep Marmot entirely from this point on.

Why? His voting record was 2 townies. Hate when players sheep the dead, it's pretty wolfy IMO

If you'd followed my progressing thoughts you'd understand. I am trying to understand the purpose of killing him and the best I can get to is that he had great reads.

You can't criticise him for his Ted vote btw. He voted to save his mason partner and his vote was on JPIC prior.

So what if the Maf aren't in his scum list at all, and they hit him so townies would push his scum reads?

I can't create a team comp that would do that that doesn't comprise of players I am already town reading.

[MacDougall]

@falcon45ca wanna claim the marks?

Wasn't me. I've not been given any mana, aside from the 3 I generate. I fireballed someone N1 and N2

What does Fireball do?

Does damage to a player, kinda like a fireball IRL

You should out who you targeted and how much damage imo.

Why not let the Maf use their Lifescope instead?

How does that help town at all?

[falcon45ca]

The mafia have the ability to determine damage. Town doesn't. Any information on who may have damage on them is beneficial. For instance if Epi has damage and we have a healer we need to know.

I didn't hit Epi. Nobody else is town cleared, so I'd rather the Maf spend their own life to see for themselves if I hit 2 of them

[MacDougall]

If you've half killed a mafia it would be good to know because others (like me) also have damage spells.

[falcon45ca]

@falcon45ca wanna claim the marks?

Wasn't me. I've not been given any mana, aside from the 3 I generate. I fireballed someone N1 and N2

What does Fireball do?

Does damage to a player, kinda like a fireball IRL

You should out who you targeted and how much damage imo.

Why not let the Maf use their Lifescope instead?

How does that help town at all?

It costs the Mafia life to use the ability. Like I said, I didn't hit the only player I'm sure is Maf, so I don't see how it helps the town to know who the 2 players are.


Let the Maf sweat and wonder how close they are to death, or use their own life to find out for sure

[MacDougall]

I don't see the benefit of withholding information here. Mafia knows you have a damage spell now. They can find out who you hit. Heck they may already know. The only people left our are the town.

[MacDougall]

It would be one thing if you were towncore but aside from me and Epi I think most players here have you as mafia.

[falcon45ca]

If you've half killed a mafia it would be good to know because others (like me) also have damage spells.

But we don't know if I hit Maf, including me. So how would it be good to know, since we are incapable of knowing anyway?

I really only see it as a benefit to Maf to know who I hit each night.


Both players I hit are still alive. Let the Maf use their life to find out if its them IMO.


Anybody else wanna weigh in on this?