Bluey: The Werewolf Game - Game Thread (Game Over- Mafia win)

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I find myself wondering, Marmot, if you're influenced by the old-timey Syndicate no-claims lore where things like "cover" didn't exist. Do you think that's plausible?

I don't know what you're asking me here.

There's a tendency, though less in recent memory, for Syndicate long-timers to respond to power role cover with suspicion (or out themselves outright) -- it's a product of being unused to role claiming and the strategic wrinkles associated with it. I know you've played your share of claim-friendly games; I just also know you had a long hiatus that was preceded by an era on this site where those things were still very relevant.

[Marmot]

SPF, can you respond to why you were shielding Alison from a vig, and why she wasn't a good option?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

At the least I am glad this thread has woken up. Moribund mega-chops are bad.

[Syn]

I thought I was the next target after Marmot and JJJ resolve? Why LC instead?

What's your read on Gavial?

he's a tracker

Agreed. I'm wondering what inspired you to ask Gavial that question

This post of his:

@Long Con
Always go Syn first before Tony when I’m gone.

LC was part of his towncore and he specifically @'d LC to tell him to get me instead of Tony once Gavial's NKed and if the team isn't Marmot/you.

Now LC is your assumed partner after Marmot claimed vig. So LC is no longer towncore and I am no longer the pick, and as far as I can tell, there's no reason why that is.

[Marmot]

I find myself wondering, Marmot, if you're influenced by the old-timey Syndicate no-claims lore where things like "cover" didn't exist. Do you think that's plausible?

I don't know what you're asking me here.

There's a tendency, though less in recent memory, for Syndicate long-timers to respond to power role cover with suspicion (or out themselves outright) -- it's a product of being unused to role claiming and the strategic wrinkles associated with it. I know you've played your share of claim-friendly games; I just also know you had a long hiatus that was preceded by an era on this site where those things were still very relevant.

The cover didn't bother me at first. It wasn't until my earlier interactions with SPF that I grew wary of her, and bothered to look back at her posts. That's when I noticed other things that stood out to me.

Do you think her cover was warranted and/or believable?

[staypositivefriend]

I believe that the Invcitus claim, SPF counterclaim was an attempt to get the vig role out in the open to talk about, and give SPF a little bit of cred for CCing providing cover. Also, in the event that SPF was a civilian and/or the actual vig, wouldn't Invictus at least try to get her yeeted instead? He gave up far to easily for me to think that's the case.

1. how was i protecting alison from being shot by the vigilante by suggesting to invictus that i would like to give alison more time to post before i made up my mind about her alignment? for one, this would have no impact on how alison was treated by the rest of the thread, let alone the real vigilante, and number two, the intention of that post was simply to add authenticity to my claim and convince invicitus that i wasn't going to immediately retract. i was putting on a show to get him to out himself, and it worked

it's worth noting that i have made no attempts to shield alison from the POE in general - i had very little to say about her on d1 because she only made a handful of posts throughout the entire day, and it was clear to me that her lack of activity was not alignment indicative - there was just ultimately not enough content to read her alignment off of. i have expressed concerns about alison's slot today and i have made no attempts to take them out of the consensus POE or prevent people from wolfreading them

if i'm a wolf and i'm trying to protect the alison slot, then i am doing an objectively bad job at it. if i'm wolf and i'm trying to bus the alison slot, then i'm doing an even worse job at it, since my approach to that slot will give me zero towncred in the event that they do flip wolf

the framing of your wallpost implies that gavial asking me to shoot alison was a factor in me deciding to retract, but the reason why i retracted is because invicitus 100%, objectively outed themselves as a wolf and i did not see the point of continuing to keep up the fakeclaim any longer

[staypositivefriend]

anyway, i will spend the time we have left in the day scumhunting to the best of my ability - apologies for losing my temper a bit

[JaggedJimmyJay]

The cover didn't bother me at first. It wasn't until my earlier interactions with SPF that I grew wary of her, and bothered to look back at her posts. That's when I noticed other things that stood out to me.

Do you think her cover was warranted and/or believable?

I discussed that in my SPF review. Whether it was "warranted" is debatable, but whether it was "productive" is not -- it ensured Invictus could become a confirmed mafioso instead of a probable mafioso. That goes a long way, and might on its own power be the difference between me opening my own entry into the game with interactive reviews or instead just making posts.

I think it's reasonably believable because I have seen it before. She did the same thing in our champs game last year to a fake claiming mafioso. He claimed JOAT, she strongly protested in a way that was suggestive of a counter, and then he died. She wasn't a JOAT.

If the inspiration here is predominantly her relationship with my slot, then I really hope you and any others will chill out with that stuff and think about the game one step at a time.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

@Gavial it'd be really swell to know what you saw from Tony that you thought were never-mafia power role covers.

[Marmot]

I believe that the Invcitus claim, SPF counterclaim was an attempt to get the vig role out in the open to talk about, and give SPF a little bit of cred for CCing providing cover. Also, in the event that SPF was a civilian and/or the actual vig, wouldn't Invictus at least try to get her yeeted instead? He gave up far to easily for me to think that's the case.

1. how was i protecting alison from being shot by the vigilante by suggesting to invictus that i would like to give alison more time to post before i made up my mind about her alignment? for one, this would have no impact on how alison was treated by the rest of the thread, let alone the real vigilante, and number two, the intention of that post was simply to add authenticity to my claim and convince invicitus that i wasn't going to immediately retract. i was putting on a show to get him to out himself, and it worked

it's worth noting that i have made no attempts to shield alison from the POE in general - i had very little to say about her on d1 because she only made a handful of posts throughout the entire day, and it was clear to me that her lack of activity was not alignment indicative - there was just ultimately not enough content to read her alignment off of. i have expressed concerns about alison's slot today and i have made no attempts to take them out of the consensus POE or prevent people from wolfreading them

if i'm a wolf and i'm trying to protect the alison slot, then i am doing an objectively bad job at it. if i'm wolf and i'm trying to bus the alison slot, then i'm doing an even worse job at it, since my approach to that slot will give me zero towncred in the event that they do flip wolf

the framing of your wallpost implies that gavial asking me to shoot alison was a factor in me deciding to retract, but the reason why i retracted is because invicitus 100%, objectively outed themselves as a wolf and i did not see the point of continuing to keep up the fakeclaim any longer

Wouldn't a better cover be to stick with the roleclaim and eat the nightkill tonight?

[staypositivefriend]

I believe that the Invcitus claim, SPF counterclaim was an attempt to get the vig role out in the open to talk about, and give SPF a little bit of cred for CCing providing cover. Also, in the event that SPF was a civilian and/or the actual vig, wouldn't Invictus at least try to get her yeeted instead? He gave up far to easily for me to think that's the case.

1. how was i protecting alison from being shot by the vigilante by suggesting to invictus that i would like to give alison more time to post before i made up my mind about her alignment? for one, this would have no impact on how alison was treated by the rest of the thread, let alone the real vigilante, and number two, the intention of that post was simply to add authenticity to my claim and convince invicitus that i wasn't going to immediately retract. i was putting on a show to get him to out himself, and it worked

it's worth noting that i have made no attempts to shield alison from the POE in general - i had very little to say about her on d1 because she only made a handful of posts throughout the entire day, and it was clear to me that her lack of activity was not alignment indicative - there was just ultimately not enough content to read her alignment off of. i have expressed concerns about alison's slot today and i have made no attempts to take them out of the consensus POE or prevent people from wolfreading them

if i'm a wolf and i'm trying to protect the alison slot, then i am doing an objectively bad job at it. if i'm wolf and i'm trying to bus the alison slot, then i'm doing an even worse job at it, since my approach to that slot will give me zero towncred in the event that they do flip wolf

the framing of your wallpost implies that gavial asking me to shoot alison was a factor in me deciding to retract, but the reason why i retracted is because invicitus 100%, objectively outed themselves as a wolf and i did not see the point of continuing to keep up the fakeclaim any longer

Wouldn't a better cover be to stick with the roleclaim and eat the nightkill tonight?

i did consider that, but there were too many factors out of my control for it to be a good idea. i didn't know if the wolves would hit the vigilante or the tracker, and if i was alive the following day with ~no~ claimed vig shot (or even worse, a vig shot that i did not claim to have), it probably would have led to me getting chopped or at least heavily scrutinized

my claim served one obvious utility (making invictus hardclaim wolf) - i didn't feel the need to push it beyond that

[JaggedJimmyJay]

[VOTE: Invictus] aubergine

[staypositivefriend]

gonna reiterate again that my approach to solving today has been based on the idea that i will get another 48 hours to scumhunt tomorrow - these reads are underdeveloped but i feel pressed to take some kind of stance before the end of the day in light of marmot's claim and his intent to shoot me

i recall that when i bussed long con in grasslands mafia a long time ago, we made a point of making theatre out of it and getting people to dissociate us as a team. that makes the fact that long con barely interacted with or responded to invicitus's suspicions reflect somewhat well on long con, IMO. i don't feel that long con is out of his wolfrange based on my parsing of his ISO, but i think the most simple explanation is that he is a villager, and i personally wouldn't touch there until later in the game if the POE has dwindled down

i feel the same way about hollowkatt - it is possible to envision a world where HK/invict committed to a hardbus wifom extravaganza, but the answer that requires the least amount of assumptions is simply that hollowkatt is a villager

if nanook is a wolf, i'm not getting there in the next hour. i feel that there is a specific interaction between invict, koba, nanook, and myself in the middle of d1 that suggests that nanook could be a spewed villager, and i have felt that nanook's posting in general is villagery. this seems to be a fairly contentious slot, so i will make a point of ISO'ing nanook and settling on a read on him if i'm alive tomorrow. at the moment, i'm leaning on him being a villager

marmot is the vig

gavial is the tracker

if all of those names are villagers, that means the wolves are in:

TSP/jaggedjimmyjay/dizzy/syn

i'm not sure how i feel about that pool of names - i maintain my feeling that dizzy had a very villagery d1 and he would not be my first shot of choice, but i also feel that his reaction to marmot wanting to shoot me was oddly opportunistic. it was out of character for dizzy to spend the entirety of this game reiterating that i was a fairly comfortable townread of his, only to react to marmot outing himself and threatening to shoot me by saying: "yeah! i can see it!". that said, i'm not sure how much of this read is being influenced by the fact that it has to do with dizzy scumreading ~me~, but his read on me did a turnaround that i am struggling to understand coming from a villager POV

most of TSP's posts have been fairly lukewarm to me - he is a slot that will probably inevitably get mischopped in the event that he is a villager, and i dont think it's a bad idea to resolve his slot tonight

continuing to withhold judgement about jagged's slot until i see what his overall view of the game looks like - his analysis has been agreeable so far but i haven't really had the chance to go back and forth with him and bounce ideas off of him, and i think that those interactions will make jagged's alignment clearer to me than anything

i thought that both syn and koba's posts were mildly villagery so i actually dont feel totally comfortable having them in this pool. the fact that i feel this way is making me wonder if i'm misreading someone among long con/HK/nanook, but i don't have the time to deduce that right now

[Marmot]

Oh that's right. Extremely minor thing but until just now, SPF and JJJ were the only two who hadn't voted for Invictus.

[staypositivefriend]

i will end today w/a vote on myself as an act of protest!

[hollowkatt]

i will end today w/a vote on myself as an act of protest!

could you not tho?

[Marmot]

[VOTE: Marmot] aubergine

[hollowkatt]

[VOTE: Marmot] aubergine

[VOTE: marmot] aubergine

[Marmot]

I dare the mafia to join us.

[staypositivefriend]

@Marmot - in my humble opinion, you need to apply occam's razor to my slot. it is possible that there exists a world where i did an elaborate fakeclaim with invictus for the purpose of bussing and getting myself towncred, but the option that requires the least amount of assumptions is that me and invicitus are not aligned with each other. i have been confused by how willing you are to theorize that me and invictus are doing theatre without being equally willing to theorize the obvious possibility that we are simply not teamed with each other

it should also be obvious to you by this point that me and jagged aren't teamed - there is no world where i get strategic benefit out of my current treatment of jagged if we are wolves together. i am not townreading him or protecting him but i'm also not really pushing for him to be shot - he's just broadly ~in~ my POE. this is a position where wolves often put their partners, yes, but i'm a wolf that is capable of reading a room and knowing when a slot is going to die sooner than later, and my focus as a wolf that is teamed w/jagged would be to dissociate jagged and myself as much as possible by bussing, ~or~ i would try to protect him and change the current gamestate. my middling, passive approach to his slot is the worst strategic move that i could make as a wolf, and i hope that congress of vienna showed to you that my wolfgame is not as tepid as you seem to be implying with that read

if your beef with me is simply the fact that i fos'd you and pressured you earlier today, then that's something that you will simply have to reckon with. i had concerns about you, those concerns were reasonable, and i tried to work with you to reach common ground

[hollowkatt]

I dare the mafia to join us.

I'm only here b/c self-voting is dumb

[Marmot]

I dare the mafia to join us.

I'm only here b/c self-voting is dumb

Is SPF a good vig choice for tonight?

[staypositivefriend]

if i get shot tonight, then i literally have no regrets, and i would do it the exact same way if i could do it all over again. i got the wolf to hard confirm themselves, and in a perfect world, the mafia would have no idea who the vigilante is right now

[Syn]

I would humbly suggest that the vig not try to coordinate their kill

[Marmot]

@Marmot - in my humble opinion, you need to apply occam's razor to my slot. it is possible that there exists a world where i did an elaborate fakeclaim with invictus for the purpose of bussing and getting myself towncred, but the option that requires the least amount of assumptions is that me and invicitus are not aligned with each other. i have been confused by how willing you are to theorize that me and invictus are doing theatre without being equally willing to theorize the obvious possibility that we are simply not teamed with each other

it should also be obvious to you by this point that me and jagged aren't teamed - there is no world where i get strategic benefit out of my current treatment of jagged if we are wolves together. i am not townreading him or protecting him but i'm also not really pushing for him to be shot - he's just broadly ~in~ my POE. this is a position where wolves often put their partners, yes, but i'm a wolf that is capable of reading a room and knowing when a slot is going to die sooner than later, and my focus as a wolf that is teamed w/jagged would be to dissociate jagged and myself as much as possible by bussing, ~or~ i would try to protect him and change the current gamestate. my middling, passive approach to his slot is the worst strategic move that i could make as a wolf, and i hope that congress of vienna showed to you that my wolfgame is not as tepid as you seem to be implying with that read

if your beef with me is simply the fact that i fos'd you and pressured you earlier today, then that's something that you will simply have to reckon with. i had concerns about you, those concerns were reasonable, and i tried to work with you to reach common ground

I fail to see why this should be true while this is also true.

Also a POE candidate is a great vig choice, especially one which was at the time AFK, I think that town SPF would agree. Also per this point, if Alison/JJJ and Invictus are wolves, their teammate would look around the room and see one being outed and yeeted, and the other being the primary vig option. That's a terrible gamestate for the wolves to be in.

I think if you're town, you could recognize that Alison was, at the time, a great vig option.

[Marmot]

I would humbly suggest that the vig not try to coordinate their kill

Why?

[Syn]

I would humbly suggest that the vig not try to coordinate their kill

Why?

I wrote out an explanation and then realized I was stupid

so never mind me

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I’m being pulled away and may not be back by the deadline. I suggest shooting Tony.

[staypositivefriend]

@Marmot - in my humble opinion, you need to apply occam's razor to my slot. it is possible that there exists a world where i did an elaborate fakeclaim with invictus for the purpose of bussing and getting myself towncred, but the option that requires the least amount of assumptions is that me and invicitus are not aligned with each other. i have been confused by how willing you are to theorize that me and invictus are doing theatre without being equally willing to theorize the obvious possibility that we are simply not teamed with each other

it should also be obvious to you by this point that me and jagged aren't teamed - there is no world where i get strategic benefit out of my current treatment of jagged if we are wolves together. i am not townreading him or protecting him but i'm also not really pushing for him to be shot - he's just broadly ~in~ my POE. this is a position where wolves often put their partners, yes, but i'm a wolf that is capable of reading a room and knowing when a slot is going to die sooner than later, and my focus as a wolf that is teamed w/jagged would be to dissociate jagged and myself as much as possible by bussing, ~or~ i would try to protect him and change the current gamestate. my middling, passive approach to his slot is the worst strategic move that i could make as a wolf, and i hope that congress of vienna showed to you that my wolfgame is not as tepid as you seem to be implying with that read

if your beef with me is simply the fact that i fos'd you and pressured you earlier today, then that's something that you will simply have to reckon with. i had concerns about you, those concerns were reasonable, and i tried to work with you to reach common ground

I fail to see why this should be true while this is also true.

Also a POE candidate is a great vig choice, especially one which was at the time AFK, I think that town SPF would agree. Also per this point, if Alison/JJJ and Invictus are wolves, their teammate would look around the room and see one being outed and yeeted, and the other being the primary vig option. That's a terrible gamestate for the wolves to be in.

I think if you're town, you could recognize that Alison was, at the time, a great vig option.

the answer to why both of these things are true is contained within the post that you're quoting. wolves have a tendency to broadly shade their partners without pushing on them, but in this specific context, it would be an extremely stupid strategy for me to treat jagged in the way that i have if we were partnered together. it would be a treatment that would give me no towncred in the slightest from a jagged scum flip while also doing absolutely nothing to change the direction of jagged inevitably getting killed

also, you are hilariously overstating the way that i reacted to gavial's suggestion that alison should be shot. this is the exchange:

well w/e, i don't care if this dude wants to fish my role out. i CC vig. i did not shoot last night

you can go into anti-spew now

You shoot Alison tonight?
I track PoE?

i'd like to give alison some more time to talk before i decide if she should be POE'd or not, but i'm fine with us settling on a shot by the end of the day

gavial did not ask me: "do you think that alison is a good potential shot for tonight?", or "what are your thoughts about alison?".

gavial asked me: "you shoot alison tonight?". i was not going to take a definitive stance on shooting a player that had been absent from the thread due to health issues without allowing her the opportunity to post more, and furthermore, there would be NO point in replying like this as a wolf, because i'm not a real vigilante and my opinion on the shot did not matter at that point! there is NOTHING in this post that is protecting alison, and i am astounded that you even think that this is an example of me "not agreeing" that alison was a good shot

[Marmot]

I would humbly suggest that the vig not try to coordinate their kill

Why?

I wrote out an explanation and then realized I was stupid

so never mind me

You're not stupid, there's probably times where that's true, I just don't think a setup where mafia has 0 PRs is one of them.

[Marmot]

I would humbly suggest that the vig not try to coordinate their kill

Why?

I wrote out an explanation and then realized I was stupid

so never mind me

You're not stupid, there's probably times where that's true, I just don't think a setup where mafia has 0 PRs is one of them.

[Marmot]

[VOTE: Invictus] aubergine

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

My ordered legacy is


If I die before I wake,
Pray the lord tsp's soul to take,
Hush little dizzy don't say a word,
And nevermind that HK you heard,
Its just the Jay under your bed,
In your closet in your head

[Dyslexicon]

Regarding Alison:

One gripe is that she gave Invictus a frivolous town read on the basis of overblown chatter about his initial RVS vote on Dizzy. I can't read Alison's mind. I do suspect what happened here though was enthusiasm about generating early town reads. She has taken more to the raw POE approach, quite like the one I often favor, in recent memory and that has been reflected in her recent town play. This was probably an example of the same. By whatever process, she felt like she could town read Invictus and moved from there. Had she played longer I have no idea what she'd have done with that -- if she's like me though, being wrong about an early Day 1 read is not a big deal -- making the read is still valuable for thread development. She was wrong, oh well.

Otherwise her commentary about Invictus is essentially nothing. She didn't dwell on the read and just played the game to the extent that she could. I can understand folks having doubts about the interaction, but that it's being treated as a slam dunk by so many folks is good evidence of confirmation bias clouding the game. That's on everyone else to sort out; I am not going to spend more of my limited time concerned with that. She's town. I'm town. You'll find it if you let yourself find it (the general "you").

1. It’s not about Alison reaching a slight town read on Invi, it’s about the whole line of questioning being unnatural. Heavy handed, asking for links, when the starting point is literally a meaningless RVS vote.

2. “So many folks” are not treating this as a slam dunk. I’m literally the only one who brought the interaction up and cared to discuss it. Nobody else has.

3. I think the interaction shows that they are teammates.

[Dyslexicon]

I’m sleeping. Good luck with your choices!

[Dyslexicon]

Spf, I’m not scum reading you. I’m scum reading Alison. And there is one more.

[hollowkatt]

I dare the mafia to join us.

I'm only here b/c self-voting is dumb

Is SPF a good vig choice for tonight?

I'm the wrong hero to ask

[hollowkatt]

[VOTE: invictius] aubergine

[hollowkatt]

My ordered legacy is


If I die before I wake,
Pray the lord tsp's soul to take,
Hush little dizzy don't say a word,
And nevermind that HK you heard,
Its just the Jay under your bed,
In your closet in your head

I know that's a riff on Metallica, but were they riffing on the Lords Prayer and Hush Little Baby b/c that's pretty metal of them

[Dyslexicon]

Spf not what I would’ve done, Marmot.

I’d shoot Jimmay.

I’m glad I’m not the vig though.

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

My ordered legacy is


If I die before I wake,
Pray the lord tsp's soul to take,
Hush little dizzy don't say a word,
And nevermind that HK you heard,
Its just the Jay under your bed,
In your closet in your head

I know that's a riff on Metallica, but were they riffing on the Lords Prayer and Hush Little Baby b/c that's pretty metal of them

I'm aware yes

Its a derivative of a derivative

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Dizzy, I’ve been treated like a foregone conclusion by at least four people. You’re not the only one.

Don’t waste a vig shot on me. I am town, and I can only hope folks will be ready to listen next time. This thread is a case study in intra-town toxicity, and it will be an even bigger problem whenever I’m dead. Too many folks are not at all ready to contend with this game after I flip despite my best efforts to encourage broader solving. It doesn’t have to be that way, and we can be better. Give me the dang chance and I can do whatever I can to make y’all listen.

Also Nanook’s posts suck and I’ve not seen any convincing sell that he’s town. If not Tony shoot him.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

also the black album is exclusively cheese

[Syn]

conf bias hitting me something fierce

[JaggedJimmyJay]

conf bias hitting me something fierce

with regard to what

[MacDougall]

Who gots Fingersplints
Poll ended at Mon May 17, 2021 8:26 am


Alison
0
No votes
Voters: None
DkKoba/Syn
0
No votes
Voters: None
Dyslexicon
0
No votes
Voters: None
Gavial
0
No votes
Voters: None
Hollowkatt
0
No votes
Voters: None
Invictius
9
69%
Voters: Marmot, TonyStarkPrime, NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME, Gavial, Long Con, Syn, Dyslexicon, JaggedJimmyJay, hollowkatt
Long Con
0
No votes
Voters: None
Marmot
0
No votes
Voters: None
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME
0
No votes
Voters: None
Staypositivefriend
1
8%
Voters: staypositivefriend
tonystarkprime
0
No votes
Voters: None
The Big Bad Wolf (Host, dead, spec)
3
23%
Voters: DkKoba, Scotty, MacDougall

[JaggedJimmyJay]

SPF is right about one thing in that lengthy exchange with Marmot -- waffling about on one's mafia teammates is the lowest-level kind of overt connection that most players with enough experience and/or bravado will typically avoid. That notion can be broadened just beyond the context of just her treatment of Alison/myself and to the roster at large.

[MacDougall]

Day 2 has ended.

Invictius got bored and went outside to play instead.

He was Bluey, mafia goon.

22.5 hrs for night actions. (time correcting)

[MacDougall]

In the night...



JaggedJimmyJay has been sent outside to play with the others.

He was Muffin, mafia goon.



Gavial was bullied relentlessly and is now in tears in the bathroom.

He was Mackenzie, town tracker.

[MacDougall]

Thread is unlocked.