PSY 2310 - Cognitive Psychology [END]

[Vulgard]

The last wolfgame I saw Dya play was in a hydra with Amy on MU and I didn't really notice a WiM tell, even though they were the last wolf alive for some time. I'm mostly asking people with experience playing with Dya if their current behavior is AI at all. (I mean the feeling of being vindicated Dya's projecting.)

[Vulgard]

@Chloe -

i gotta admit, a big part of the reason why i said that you were "tonally uncomfortable" was because of the way that you talked about the dynamic between me and sunbae in this post: https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 54#p801154. reading that post activated my fight or flight instinct. the specific language of: "Sunbae imemdiately hopping into it and spotting inconsistencies was a big feelsgoodman" was just ...odd, because sunbae wasn't really even pointing out inconsistencies in the guide, and that's not what the main conversation was even about. it felt like an analysis that you made after very briefly skimming through our engagement instead of really digging into it and figuring out what we were talking about

my gut reaction to that post made me interpret the rest of your posts through the lens of: "Chloe Is Hiding Something". i don't really know how i feel about you right now even though i lightly townread your predecessor on d1

ive seen the exchange following this post but just want to say that i dont understand this take at all. chloe doesn't have to fully unpack all the ins and outs of the argument to make the observation that sunbae investigating stuff like that is villagery

I'm not closed off to the possibility he's just a wolf.

Someone tell me why I hate this line so much

Is it
The tiptoeing?
The vacuousness?
The fact that this is only coming now from Ms. Akemi "Check The Easy Worlds First" Homura and with so little conviction in the sequence from start to finish?

Your guess is as good as mine.

now that you mention it alison voicing hesitancy over killing a LHF is strange

I don't think it is, she did a similar thing with me in Congress of Vienna where she was town

thoughts on this post?

im fairly convinced that every other single player that KZA talked about in their ISO (gavial, hally, myself, nutella) is a villager. so after TMI'ing a bunch of people as villagers, does KZA pop in to drop a defense of their wolf partner? is that their style?

this is def the one i was most concerned about -- i think the previous kza stuff was likely all tmi, but this one hits different somehow, and i think kza/alison can be teammates

I'm not closed off to the possibility he's just a wolf.

Someone tell me why I hate this line so much

Is it
The tiptoeing?
The vacuousness?
The fact that this is only coming now from Ms. Akemi "Check The Easy Worlds First" Homura and with so little conviction in the sequence from start to finish?

Your guess is as good as mine.

now that you mention it alison voicing hesitancy over killing a LHF is strange

I don't think it is, she did a similar thing with me in Congress of Vienna where she was town

thoughts on this post?

im fairly convinced that every other single player that KZA talked about in their ISO (gavial, hally, myself, nutella) is a villager. so after TMI'ing a bunch of people as villagers, does KZA pop in to drop a defense of their wolf partner? is that their style?

i think the takeaway from that post should be different
it's possible alison is also town but i think bronana should be p close to hard v from the way kza is talking to him

perhaps thats a good point too aaa


damn i just
love agreeing with half my wolfreads about the other half of my wolfreads

Nutella is still a villager.

[Marluxion]

This is a really dumb thought, but what are the odds of more than one wolf having lower wim in this playerlist? (KZA was either wimless or terrible at wolfing. Or both.) I have no experience with most of the players here. Who would you consider the best / highest-WiM wolves on this playerlist?

I think my gamestate read yesterday was correct
I think the broader poe turning on each other yesterday means at least a couple of the wolves are in the poe
that's why my top two suspects are dyachei and alison
alison i just haven't felt as town yet and dyachei has actively reminded me of their scumplay in reflections

[Marluxion]

help i dont want vulgard to be disappointed in me someone delete the last page before he gets to it

[Marluxion]

also on lex i think 1841 is a v towny reply
their pov and thoughts check out even if they did look bad from the seth wagon and i dont want to vote them today aorn

[Vulgard]

Any thoughts on Amy or dyslexicon SPF?

i feel like i should wolfread dyslexicon for their posts about KZA toward the EOD, but i don't

any wolfteam with basic gamestate awareness would be aware that KZA's days were numbered, and there were multiple calls for KZA to be vigged/killed regardless of gavial's flip. what does dizzy gain by dropping a hard and passionate defense of KZA right as the day was ending? i doubt that he thought that he could single handedly change peoples opinions on KZA within the short amount of time left within d1, and i remain feeling that dizzy is more likely to be a villager than to be a wolf

honestly, i think that amy's progression on KZA is wolfy on paper. it looks like a textbook w/w progression - amy throws shade on KZA throughout d1 that grows incrementally with the thread consensus, but does not go out of her way to spearhead suspicion against them, and makes posts that push the game in the direction of a gavial chop while still positioning themselves in a good way by saying to "kill KZA with prejudice" right before the day ended

i'm trying to reconcile my concern about amy's progression on KZA with my general good feelings about her on d1. i don't have an answer for you yet

I agree it was out of place, much like their defense of Gavial. I don't think a wolf with TMI on wagons being W/V decides to defend both of them without even offering an alternative. Dizzy would have to be like "I'm going to sit here and deprive myself of options, you vote whoever you like but I'm defending an easy mischop and my wolf partner who hasn't posted anything good." Pretty sure at this point you either commit to a bus or to a defense.

The only thing giving me pause is potential refuge in audacity but it doesn't seem to give Dizzy much of an advantage. It just makes Dizzy look bad.

[Vulgard]

I'm going to do a TMI hunt later today, nobody seems to have done this before me.

[Vulgard]

the only reservation i have about this read is that i don't really know what vulgard's wolfgame is like, or how competent they are as a wolf in general. do you know?

i'd like to say yes but honestly its been so long since i've played with vulgard that my memory of his wolfgame is incredibly thin and i cant give a proper rundown. the only thing i remember is reading his posts and going 'yeah this wasnt written by a villager lol' and his tone being more.. aggressive. he just didnt feel like himself
just going off of my distant memory this doesnt feel like wolfgard - and i think i'd spot him pretty easily if it was

https://forum.throneoflies.com/t/countr ... 2-24/84932

My most recent wolfgame is here if anyone would like to have a point of reference.

[Vulgard]

Visor is a wolf.

I do not have an argument to back this up.

Discuss.

[Vulgard]

Oh, and by the way. I'm not a player 100% confident in all my reads, but I will confidently push my reads. This is the first time I was wrong on Gavial's alignment, and honestly, I still can't reconcile that. Which is why I'm taking a more laid-back approach today and not going for another push that might end up being wrong.

[outed wolf]

Visor is a wolf.

I do not have an argument to back this up.

Discuss.

[Vulgard]

Dizzy's take on KZA's sparse ISO is the one I agree with the most. Specifically with Nutella being a likely villager because it's KZA's first townread. And also because nutella has a somewhat polarized meta as far as I understand it, making townreading wolf!nutella there redundant since they'll be outed anyway.

I'm finally caught up and I think Amy's day phase so far hasn't been great. The vote on Alison specifically skeeves me out, because I've read all these arguments about dya/Amy having partner equity, and her suddenly voting the person dya's been pushing all game feels wrong. She's been going through the motions and posting reads, reads I actually didn't hate, but then she goes completely against them and decides to follow dya on their Alison wagon. It looks like she's trying to get a misyeet on Alison before she and her partner dya get yeeted. Dya being the other top wagon at the moment adds credibility to this theory.

At this point my read on Alison is less dependent on Alison and more on how her slot's been treated throughout the game. If Amy/dya are wolves then Alison is pretty much always town. If Amy/dya are town, more specifically dya, Alison's probably a wolf. In that world, I'm simply inclined to believe dya's right about their non-consensus wolfread. I specifically get flashback to Champs finale where this exact thing happened.

I usually hate preflips but yeah.

Might change my mind about this when I get to ISOing.

[outed wolf]

they're just wolves

str8 fax

[outed wolf]

i hate my list actually

arete is too low, zack is too low, why can't i move sunbae higher, what am i doing with the dya/alison bullshit

someone is snowing me HARD

take this with a grain of salt given i am already pushing hard for amy but this whole 'snowing me thing' is kinda whack/feels fake (exacerbated by the fact its mid d2 with 1 scum dead too lol)

[Vulgard]

The - s are in chronological order.

Alison:

- Assumes that Gavial is "anti-town" rather than "mafia" in her very first post about Gavial. Calls his behavior NAI despite the presence of metareads in the thread at that point. (Nevermind that those meta reads were wrong, this is still important.)
- Calls Gavial "rand" and calls the people who vote for him based on him being anti-town "lazy."
- Claims Dizzy defending Gavial is a good look for Dizzy because it'd be a bad move for wolf!Dizzy regardless of Gavial's alignment. I actually agree with this point. Mentions that there's a solid chance of Gavial being a wolf.
- Responds to Amy's wolfread on Gavial by saying she isn't closed off to the possibility of Gavial being mafia.
- "I'm not ready to lock Gavial town." Weird progression jump there. It's like she's bouncing around a limbo where she sometimes implies Gavial's town and sometimes doesn't. This megahedge is odd.
- Calls Gavial's level of caring about the game NAI, thus continuing to refuse to call Gavial's alignment.
- Claims she isn't a Gavial expert.
- Continues to push the line that Gavial's NAI to her.
- Calls Gavial's VT claim kinda towny.

I... think this looks towny when viewed as a whole and in-context? KZA was the main CW yesterday, and KZA was a wolf. Alison spending the entire day refusing to call Gavial's alignment doesn't seem like a wolf play. I think she'd take one of two stances here: either bus or just push Gavial and listen to people's metareads. I'd even argue doing the latter benefits Alison more - not only does she get a misyeet, but she takes no blame for it, since she had given a lot of consideration toward Gavial's alignment and she wasn't the person with the mistaken metareads on Gavial. Her calling Gavial's VT claim "kinda towny" close to EoD also makes it more likely KZA gets yeeted, which prevents the wolves from getting a rolecop check. Their chances of getting it were tiny last night, since KZA was always getting vigged (they'd have to RB exactly the vig), and KZA would go day 2 anyway in that case. Still, it would be beneficial for the wolves (1 rolecop check is better than 0), and Alison didn't go for it. My impression of her wolfgame is that she knows what's optimal and what isn't. In that case, she didn't have much to lose by just accepting the Gavial push and joining it. In fact, her contrarian stance on Gavial is what got her scumread in the first place, yet another point in favor of Alison being town.

Might not be able to get all of these out, but I wanted to get this one out specifically.

[Vulgard]

Amy:

- Agrees with SPF that Gavial is probably mafia. This is her first mention of Gavial in her posts.
- Votes Gavial.
- Continues to imply Gavial is mafia. The phrasing she uses implies 100% confidence. "I'd be more pressed to talk about other potential wolves if we didn't have Gavial sitting right there."
- Already thinks about bussing votes on Gavial in her next post. Preflips Hally as mafia based off it (incorrectly).
- Makes a massive PoE containing Gavial/Dya/Hally/Arete/Alison/KZA.
- Claims that Gavial flipping W makes Alison less likely to be V. Still 0 reconsideration of Gavial. This fact alone doesn't make me suspicious, it's the instant jump to the conclusion Gavial is W and preflipping off it. Once directly, once implied (with Alison), and this is only the sixth mention of Gavial among Amy's posts. The weird part about these preflips is that mafia!Amy knows these preflips are incorrect, because Gavial's W. If Gavial flips D1, like Amy apparently wanted, then his green flip invalidates the reads she makes based on those preflips. I think it's possible she made those preflip reads because it was easier that way; Gavial flipping V can prompt wolf!Amy to just go "oops" and invalidate these reads, thus taking no blame for making them since the premise was wrong.
- Continues to claim Gavial is a wolf.
- Claims that Alison isn't Gavial's partner because of her treatment of him, but if Gavial is somehow town, she will votepark on Alison for the entirety of D2. This is a very, very slimy preflip considering what I think about Alison at the moment.
- Claims that Alison's calling Gavial's behavior NAI to reduce the traction on Gavial's wagon. A ton of her reads surrounding the Gavial thing are predicated on Gavial being a wolf. This is a very narrow, tunnely POV. I was among the main Gavial pushers day 1 and I don't remember making preflips like this with actual confidence, if at all.
- Asks dya if she has opinions on Gavial, because she thinks Gavial's a wolf. This looks like she's trying to convince dyachei to vote for Gavial.
- Claims that her not envisioning a v!Gavial world is because misyeeting him isn't a problem, whereas misyeeting someone like dya is a problem. This looks like a pocket on dyachei, because dyachei'd felt vindicated by the thread. I could see it as a W/W move to defend your partner, though. Also, this gives her justification to keep tunneling.
- Outright says killing KZA is less important than killing Gavial.
- Townreads dya after dya votes Gavial. This actually feels pockety and not partnered, weirdly enough. It's like Amy's read on dya is predicated on whether dya votes Gavial with her, and that would be a really odd interaction for it to be W/W. I could still see it being W/W, but I find it unlikely.
- Final reads are: vulgard sunbae nutella spf and "maybe hally" town, dya trending up but not fully there, kill KZA.

The funny thing here is that she's townreading the entire KZA wagon and wolfreading KZA, while out of the Gavial voters, she only townreads me. Dya is a tentative townread for her, another Gavial vote there, but other than that, she doesn't townread any of the Gavial voters.

I'm surprised Amy didn't go "wagon formation indicates all my villagers are on KZA, maybe the Gavial wagon is wrong" or anything like that. She wants KZA dead and townreads his entire wagon, but still goes for Gavial, thus giving wolf!KZA a chance to use his rolecop. Her POV looks very inconsistent. It's like she wants to take a strong stance against KZA, but still wishes to get a Gavial misyeet day 1 despite most of her villagers voting away from the Gavial wagon.

If Amy's mafia, this looks slightly better for SPF and nutella (living KZA EOD1 voters) for complicated reasons I don't know how to explain.

Overall, the macro picture looks really bad. Amy has not once seriously considered the possibility of Gavial flipping V, she made preflips based on Gavial's W flip, she gave dya a townread that seemed predicated on dya voting Gavial with her, and has a continually narrow POV. The thing that separates this from "tunneled villager" from me is that the Gavial push colors her entire day 1 game and a lot of her reads warp around it. The narrowness of that perspective is wolfy to me because we're in a skilled playerlist and I'd expect V!Amy to be more flexible with her evaluation, both of Gavial and of other players. I myself am guilty of calling Gavial a wolf a lot, but I at least tried to hear Arete out about it, etc. while Amy has been spending most of her time convincing people to vote Gavial. She tries to convince dya to vote there, she evaluates Alison strictly based on her treatment of Gavial, she does mention KZA a few times but always as lower-priority in comparison to Gavial. Her first post about Gavial is basically agreeing with SPF right away that Gavial's mafia. This I find more likely to be aimed at a V!SPF if Amy's mafia, just because it's the earlygame and openly aligning with your partner like that is a super bold move. But that's beside the point.

I think Amy's probably a wolf. Dya might be a wolf as well - there are a few interactions I could see being W/W - but I don't necessarily think they are 100% aligned, because some of these interactions leave some room for doubt fmpov. Specifically the way Amy's read on dya evolves in relation to whether dya votes Gavial or not. Will read dya later to verify from their end, though.

[dyachei]

im kind of offended people think i havent given reads outside of alison because i have

i'm also solidifying my read on tangy/chloe today. I think chloe's behavior in thread makes sense from her perspective as a sub thrown into this game. I like that she's taking small bites to read people instead of trying everyone at once? feel like a wolf would share reads more certainly than she has

[dyachei]

@outed wolf I may have history with gav but I don't remember it. I vaguely remember playing with them though?

[dyachei]

vulgard - how many games have you played with alison?

[Chloe]

remove confident villagers: Chloe, Marluxion, nutella, outed wolf, staypositivefriend, Vulgard

is marl now a confident villager just bc of his derpclear? give me the rundown on how you got there

9 pages to catch up on, it'll be a while before I'm up to date again. I feel like a clown after the Gavial misyeet but at least there's a dead wolf.

Ping me if you want to talk to me about something, just be aware I didn't think about the game much during the night phase and that I'm not up-to-date on whatever's happened d2.

vul!!!
ily (:

Distinctly V!Arete perspective in this entire post unless they've learned to fake it.

Particularly one part I don't want to point out for Arete's sake.

yeah i liked this post as well

---
vul is just a villager yeah
nothin has changed w/ my read there
cool

back to my d1 readthru!

[Vulgard]

I think I've been fairly consistent in saying that you haven't been exclusively tunneling Alison, but that your read on Alison is definitely the highlight of your contributions so far. It's the first thing I associate with you in this game, outside of the constant defensive attitude. The defensive attitude part is something I could see being NAI based on how I saw you play as town sometimes, but yeah.

Speaking of reads outside of Alison, do the flips give you more reads outside of Alison? What do you think @ my townread of Alison?

[Vulgard]

vulgard - how many games have you played with alison?

Two on The Syndicate, both times as wolf partners, and one hydra game on MU where our slots were both V and she died N1. I found her a pretty easy townread in the game where she was town, and in our wolfgames together I treated her in a specific manner to help her go deep. Worked in one game, didn't work in another.

I also read her CoV ISO, where she was town, and I'm somewhat familiar with her recent Mountainous wolfgame on MU but not 100%.

[dyachei]

I think your townread of alison is naive. I think it looks at level 1 play and I think alison plays at a higher level than that.

do you think there was actually a chance kza gets elimmed yesterday?

[Vulgard]

There was a real KZA wagon at various points d1, including EoD. He doesn't survive n1 99% of the time because of the n1 vig existing and the various calls to vig him, but there was the 1% chance of the vig getting roleblocked which I'm trying to take into account.

[Vulgard]

I think your townread of alison is naive. I think it looks at level 1 play and I think alison plays at a higher level than that.

do you think there was actually a chance kza gets elimmed yesterday?

What's the "higher-level" play Alison would've been doing there? Explain what you think her motivations for this could've been.

[dyachei]

marl, you keep comparing this game to reflections but I want to be clear there are problems with that

I didnt know I'd be subbing in for a wolf in reflections and worked hard but HATED every minute of it (and playing with a group of people that got toxic on each other very easily). I'm excited to play this game, I'm just in light game mode. I wanted out of the thread every minute I was in it htere. IT's kind of confusing to me that people think I have that kind of tone because I'm happy to be in this game and it's probably why I hit cap yesterday. I get irritated at being wolf read as both alignments. perhaps you don't remember ice cream mafia

[dyachei]

There was a real KZA wagon at various points d1, including EoD. He doesn't survive n1 99% of the time because of the n1 vig existing and the various calls to vig him, but there was the 1% chance of the vig getting roleblocked which I'm trying to take into account.

the wagon on him always seemed a lot shorter than the wagon on gav

[dyachei]

I think your townread of alison is naive. I think it looks at level 1 play and I think alison plays at a higher level than that.

do you think there was actually a chance kza gets elimmed yesterday?

What's the "higher-level" play Alison would've been doing there? Explain what you think her motivations for this could've been.

I think she was just TMI-ing someone that's clearly not like the others in this playlist (and lhf) to look good. alison can be very manipulative with her reads, she knows how people perceive them

[Marluxion]

marl, you keep comparing this game to reflections but I want to be clear there are problems with that

I didnt know I'd be subbing in for a wolf in reflections and worked hard but HATED every minute of it (and playing with a group of people that got toxic on each other very easily). I'm excited to play this game, I'm just in light game mode. I wanted out of the thread every minute I was in it htere. IT's kind of confusing to me that people think I have that kind of tone because I'm happy to be in this game and it's probably why I hit cap yesterday. I get irritated at being wolf read as both alignments. perhaps you don't remember ice cream mafia

[VOTE: Marluxion] aubergine

(just putting it on myself until i figure out who i want to vote)
But this post really resonates with me and i feel like you're being genuine. I believe you and think you're town for now. I'm probably gonna catch a fuckton of flak for changing my mind so quickly but this really does feel genuine to me

[Marluxion]

Chloe
Dyachei
Nutella
Vulgard

All 4 villagers
I can say this with confidence i think

Lex
SPF
c4?*

all i think are PROBABLY villagers and i dont vote here today

Bronana

I think is slightly spewed v by KZA but i respect this entire lobby enough not to full clear someone on spew because everyone in this game probably has some semblence of theater, would take a lot to get me to vote here today

Amy

Had some posts i liked yesterday but i've honestly never seen amy wolf and nothing coming from her seems super confidence inspiring, like barely above the tier below

Sunbae
Visor
Alison

Direct PoE, must have at least 1 wolf or i'm going to lose my mind probably

* c4 has the questionmark because i forgot he existed until the end but i remember his post about nobody acknowledging him and recall it feeling genuine

[Marluxion]

I actually kinda want to drop vulgard down a tier just because i'm getting some crossbell vibes from his posts today but idk
probably is still just town but i can't shake the vibe
i'll probably find him tonight during the night phase hopefully

[Vulgard]

I'm town <3 ))))))))))))

[Marluxion]

ALSO I forgot to claim it yesterday but i got a prize during the night phase to neighborize one player of my choice for a cycle and i chose vulgard (because i missed playing with him)

i dont really see any reason not to claim this since it only lasts 1 night, so i'll be able to talk to vulgard tonight and hopefully bounce some reads and shake the feeling of him powerwolfing on us

[Vulgard]

That's actually great, since I doubt I'll be able to share all my thoughts today (busy weekend ahead). Hope you're not a wolf.

[Vulgard]

I'm imagining a world where I'm having a neat conversation with Marl while he's plotting my demise in wolfchat as we speak.

[Marluxion]

That's actually great, since I doubt I'll be able to share all my thoughts today (busy weekend ahead). Hope you're not a wolf.

Tiny Brain: Wolves kill vulgard to force me to sort through his reads the following day
Galaxy Brain: Kill me instead of vulgard so i can't share his reads

[Marluxion]

I'm imagining a world where I'm having a neat conversation with Marl while he's plotting my demise in wolfchat as we speak.

Vulgard in the chat tonight moments before my wolf team ends his life:

[Marluxion]

also i actually kinda want to move sunbae up to the amy tier just because sunbae was pushing the 'dyachei is v' agenda for a while and i think i agree with them

it might be tmi and posturing since they haven't really hard defended them though, but it is still a while from eod

[Vulgard]

We should play together more often.

[Marluxion]

outed has like... nothing...? going for him in my book
but that in itself is something? like he doesn't really care how people read him and he's just playing his own game
idk

[Vulgard]

Visor is a wolf.

I do not have an argument to back this up.

Discuss.

I actually did want people to discuss this because I personally have no idea how to read him as of right now and it's day 2.

[Vulgard]

I'll definitely try my hand at it later but I want to hear other people's opinions first.

[Marluxion]

[VOTE: Unvote] aubergine
i just realized there is an unvote option in the poll lmao
so i just voted myself for no reason
quality

[Marluxion]

also holy fuck i only have like 30 posts left and we're halfway through the phase
i'm officially engaging 'shut the fuck up and wait for more people to give thoughts' protocol before i post again
might even wait until i'm at work tonight

[dyachei]

Visor is a wolf.

I do not have an argument to back this up.

Discuss.

I actually did want people to discuss this because I personally have no idea how to read him as of right now and it's day 2.

honestly he said something really snarky and fun not that long ago and that's when i felt he was villa

I haven't seen visor as a wolf in a long time, but I'm usually decent at finding him as villa

[nutella]

Spoiler: show

trying to fall asleep and suddenly absurdly confident the team is just amy/dya/zack and everyone else is simply a villager

is this literally just the hydra game again but this time i'm a villager and I can't blame gh for my troubles

anyway i saw the amount of posts to backread, got to #1700 or so, decided to procrastinate reading the rest of this shit until tomorrow. tomorrow zack is not gonna like present zack

lolbye

[VOTE: dyslexicon] aubergine

omgus. I don't understand your case on me or why Nutella finds it so compelling, feels like you are maybe trying to bait me into a thunderdome as an avenue to generate content today

at some point searching my name I think I saw visor made a reads list wall with actual reasons and thought who even are you

I am not totally comfortable with Amy/dya but I don't really think they are wolves there I said it prepare your memes if one or both flips red

I think the consensus poe is probably bunk but have no good ideas myself for where to go, maybe some combo of dizzy/marl/Alison ... c4? some person being townread for doing stuff? are we are vulgard is town? why is visor so confident nutella is town

I wanted to go to sleep awhile ago but couldn't stop thinking about this shit even though I never fully caught up on the thread. mafia is so freaking dumb

classic shitty late night zack post people will hate

i hate my list actually

arete is too low, zack is too low, why can't i move sunbae higher, what am i doing with the dya/alison bullshit

someone is snowing me HARD

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

i guess?

i'm having misgivings about dya, not because of anything they've done but because everyone else seems SO certain that they're onto something that i wonder if i'm a dumbass for wanting to townread them

and that's the primary thing giving me pause about my alison read

but i think alison's playing a fairly underwhelming game if town and i still think the seth thing is weird

though c4 did still have a cromulent point about the w/w vs w/v thing... i think? i haven't reread the interactions in question

and i'm not going to tonight

this post is a mess probably but i probably shouldn't be awake given my recent sleeping troubles

oof. these zack and amy posts only made me feel better about my solve

Spoiler: show

But they did in fact TMI Gavial town in the most classical lolwolf defending the top town wagon. I will see what others say about this.

You kinda did the same thing though

I do not believe I did!
If you think otherwise, you must be misunderstanding something, which I will happily explain to you, or at least attempt! Because if I at any point was more certain about Gavial on D1, it was that he was probably mafia. Although that confidence gradually disappeared towards EoD!

Can you tell us what the two smaller reasons are? Even if they dont make sense to us or convince us that swagged-out-lissa is scum, they might help us find you if you're town

Yes, I can!

One of them I have mentioned already. Zack said it was reasonable to be confused about a strong player posting the way I did D1, (which apparently was so crazy and trolly to the likes of which nobody had ever seen!) when I was a strong player as far as he knew. It just reminded me of a player in champs who said the same thing to me, and he was mafia, and I speculate whether mafia would be more cognisant of the relative strength of players. The issue also becomes whether or not there is component of TMI in the reaction: "Why is this person posting like this when they could be doing better?" However, I am not so sure whether this component exists in Zacks musings as much as it did when it happened to me last time (where the message was "Just do your thing, I've heard you're good!" which does seem more TMI-ish.)

So I'm not sure about the strength of this, but it reminded me of another situation.
The second thing is even weaker, and I'm not sure it's meaningful at all:

Sorta soulread Dizzy v.

a) did you just TMI dizzy?

To which my internal response was "Did YOU just TMI me town?"

I am confident I have seen scum accuse town of TMI when they have correct reads.
The way c4 delivered his read did not warrant this response from Zack imo. It doesn't flow well.

However, this is not to say that town cannot also do this!

---

So again, this may not be very meaningful for others or even myself at this point, but this is what I thought.

I also have no made my mind up about Zack at all. Some aspects of his response to me I find rather towny. For example his annoyance of me breaking post cap (whoops, didn't realise there was post cap lol) "just" to call him scum. But I will not disrespect him enough to not give towny responses to pressure! This is just one player that has done things that I want to talk about and investigate further. If I had made my mind up, I would not still be talking about it!

these additional points from dizzy i think are actually really good. those are both the kind of things that can show actual tmi from a wolf

Spoiler: show

Dizzy's take on KZA's sparse ISO is the one I agree with the most. Specifically with Nutella being a likely villager because it's KZA's first townread. And also because nutella has a somewhat polarized meta as far as I understand it, making townreading wolf!nutella there redundant since they'll be outed anyway.

I'm finally caught up and I think Amy's day phase so far hasn't been great. The vote on Alison specifically skeeves me out, because I've read all these arguments about dya/Amy having partner equity, and her suddenly voting the person dya's been pushing all game feels wrong. She's been going through the motions and posting reads, reads I actually didn't hate, but then she goes completely against them and decides to follow dya on their Alison wagon. It looks like she's trying to get a misyeet on Alison before she and her partner dya get yeeted. Dya being the other top wagon at the moment adds credibility to this theory.

At this point my read on Alison is less dependent on Alison and more on how her slot's been treated throughout the game. If Amy/dya are wolves then Alison is pretty much always town. If Amy/dya are town, more specifically dya, Alison's probably a wolf. In that world, I'm simply inclined to believe dya's right about their non-consensus wolfread. I specifically get flashback to Champs finale where this exact thing happened.

I usually hate preflips but yeah.

Might change my mind about this when I get to ISOing.

The - s are in chronological order.

Alison:

- Assumes that Gavial is "anti-town" rather than "mafia" in her very first post about Gavial. Calls his behavior NAI despite the presence of metareads in the thread at that point. (Nevermind that those meta reads were wrong, this is still important.)
- Calls Gavial "rand" and calls the people who vote for him based on him being anti-town "lazy."
- Claims Dizzy defending Gavial is a good look for Dizzy because it'd be a bad move for wolf!Dizzy regardless of Gavial's alignment. I actually agree with this point. Mentions that there's a solid chance of Gavial being a wolf.
- Responds to Amy's wolfread on Gavial by saying she isn't closed off to the possibility of Gavial being mafia.
- "I'm not ready to lock Gavial town." Weird progression jump there. It's like she's bouncing around a limbo where she sometimes implies Gavial's town and sometimes doesn't. This megahedge is odd.
- Calls Gavial's level of caring about the game NAI, thus continuing to refuse to call Gavial's alignment.
- Claims she isn't a Gavial expert.
- Continues to push the line that Gavial's NAI to her.
- Calls Gavial's VT claim kinda towny.

I... think this looks towny when viewed as a whole and in-context? KZA was the main CW yesterday, and KZA was a wolf. Alison spending the entire day refusing to call Gavial's alignment doesn't seem like a wolf play. I think she'd take one of two stances here: either bus or just push Gavial and listen to people's metareads. I'd even argue doing the latter benefits Alison more - not only does she get a misyeet, but she takes no blame for it, since she had given a lot of consideration toward Gavial's alignment and she wasn't the person with the mistaken metareads on Gavial. Her calling Gavial's VT claim "kinda towny" close to EoD also makes it more likely KZA gets yeeted, which prevents the wolves from getting a rolecop check. Their chances of getting it were tiny last night, since KZA was always getting vigged (they'd have to RB exactly the vig), and KZA would go day 2 anyway in that case. Still, it would be beneficial for the wolves (1 rolecop check is better than 0), and Alison didn't go for it. My impression of her wolfgame is that she knows what's optimal and what isn't. In that case, she didn't have much to lose by just accepting the Gavial push and joining it. In fact, her contrarian stance on Gavial is what got her scumread in the first place, yet another point in favor of Alison being town.

Might not be able to get all of these out, but I wanted to get this one out specifically.

good vulgard posts that i agree with

also the one about amy which is getting me to consider a world where amy is a wolf and dya isn't

Spoiler: show

im kind of offended people think i havent given reads outside of alison because i have

i'm also solidifying my read on tangy/chloe today. I think chloe's behavior in thread makes sense from her perspective as a sub thrown into this game. I like that she's taking small bites to read people instead of trying everyone at once? feel like a wolf would share reads more certainly than she has

I think your townread of alison is naive. I think it looks at level 1 play and I think alison plays at a higher level than that.

do you think there was actually a chance kza gets elimmed yesterday?

I think your townread of alison is naive. I think it looks at level 1 play and I think alison plays at a higher level than that.

do you think there was actually a chance kza gets elimmed yesterday?

What's the "higher-level" play Alison would've been doing there? Explain what you think her motivations for this could've been.

I think she was just TMI-ing someone that's clearly not like the others in this playlist (and lhf) to look good. alison can be very manipulative with her reads, she knows how people perceive them

you're defensive about having given more reads and yet... i just feel like every time you enter thread your focus is so narrow and you only reply to like 2 specific things at a time and i never know what your like, broader thoughts are at any given time

would love more transparency into your thoughts in general, i get that it's a light game and you dont want to put in a ton of effort or change your style but i just feel like some entire dimension is missing

like i can name some of your townreads, like chloe, visor, amy, but i don't have a lot of insight into your pov

i do fully agree with you about chloe, i'm quite confident she's just a villager at this point.

also, i think your response to vulgard's alison read is dismissive and shallow. it's like you're waving your hand and saying "no alison is better than that and would have deeper strategy" without actually digging into vulgard's reasoning and how he is in fact accounting for that. it also seems contradictory to say "she's aware of how her reads make her look, and also she obviously had TMI." honestly if you're town i think there's a decent chance you are right about alison by sheer poe, but i want to see you actually considering the angles of why her sorta messy progression on gav might actually come from an uninformed place.

finally, would love to hear more thoughts from you specifically on amy and zack with an updated view to their posts this phase and what you think they are accomplishing in thread, and what you think of the gripes that i, visor, vulgard, dizzy, etc have expressed. i'd like you to examine whether your earlier reasons to townread amy have really held up through d2.

[dyachei]

Spoiler: show

trying to fall asleep and suddenly absurdly confident the team is just amy/dya/zack and everyone else is simply a villager

is this literally just the hydra game again but this time i'm a villager and I can't blame gh for my troubles

anyway i saw the amount of posts to backread, got to #1700 or so, decided to procrastinate reading the rest of this shit until tomorrow. tomorrow zack is not gonna like present zack

lolbye

[VOTE: dyslexicon] aubergine

omgus. I don't understand your case on me or why Nutella finds it so compelling, feels like you are maybe trying to bait me into a thunderdome as an avenue to generate content today

at some point searching my name I think I saw visor made a reads list wall with actual reasons and thought who even are you

I am not totally comfortable with Amy/dya but I don't really think they are wolves there I said it prepare your memes if one or both flips red

I think the consensus poe is probably bunk but have no good ideas myself for where to go, maybe some combo of dizzy/marl/Alison ... c4? some person being townread for doing stuff? are we are vulgard is town? why is visor so confident nutella is town

I wanted to go to sleep awhile ago but couldn't stop thinking about this shit even though I never fully caught up on the thread. mafia is so freaking dumb

classic shitty late night zack post people will hate

i hate my list actually

arete is too low, zack is too low, why can't i move sunbae higher, what am i doing with the dya/alison bullshit

someone is snowing me HARD

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

i guess?

i'm having misgivings about dya, not because of anything they've done but because everyone else seems SO certain that they're onto something that i wonder if i'm a dumbass for wanting to townread them

and that's the primary thing giving me pause about my alison read

but i think alison's playing a fairly underwhelming game if town and i still think the seth thing is weird

though c4 did still have a cromulent point about the w/w vs w/v thing... i think? i haven't reread the interactions in question

and i'm not going to tonight

this post is a mess probably but i probably shouldn't be awake given my recent sleeping troubles

oof. these zack and amy posts only made me feel better about my solve

Spoiler: show

But they did in fact TMI Gavial town in the most classical lolwolf defending the top town wagon. I will see what others say about this.

You kinda did the same thing though

I do not believe I did!
If you think otherwise, you must be misunderstanding something, which I will happily explain to you, or at least attempt! Because if I at any point was more certain about Gavial on D1, it was that he was probably mafia. Although that confidence gradually disappeared towards EoD!

Can you tell us what the two smaller reasons are? Even if they dont make sense to us or convince us that swagged-out-lissa is scum, they might help us find you if you're town

Yes, I can!

One of them I have mentioned already. Zack said it was reasonable to be confused about a strong player posting the way I did D1, (which apparently was so crazy and trolly to the likes of which nobody had ever seen!) when I was a strong player as far as he knew. It just reminded me of a player in champs who said the same thing to me, and he was mafia, and I speculate whether mafia would be more cognisant of the relative strength of players. The issue also becomes whether or not there is component of TMI in the reaction: "Why is this person posting like this when they could be doing better?" However, I am not so sure whether this component exists in Zacks musings as much as it did when it happened to me last time (where the message was "Just do your thing, I've heard you're good!" which does seem more TMI-ish.)

So I'm not sure about the strength of this, but it reminded me of another situation.
The second thing is even weaker, and I'm not sure it's meaningful at all:

Sorta soulread Dizzy v.

a) did you just TMI dizzy?

To which my internal response was "Did YOU just TMI me town?"

I am confident I have seen scum accuse town of TMI when they have correct reads.
The way c4 delivered his read did not warrant this response from Zack imo. It doesn't flow well.

However, this is not to say that town cannot also do this!

---

So again, this may not be very meaningful for others or even myself at this point, but this is what I thought.

I also have no made my mind up about Zack at all. Some aspects of his response to me I find rather towny. For example his annoyance of me breaking post cap (whoops, didn't realise there was post cap lol) "just" to call him scum. But I will not disrespect him enough to not give towny responses to pressure! This is just one player that has done things that I want to talk about and investigate further. If I had made my mind up, I would not still be talking about it!

these additional points from dizzy i think are actually really good. those are both the kind of things that can show actual tmi from a wolf

Spoiler: show

Dizzy's take on KZA's sparse ISO is the one I agree with the most. Specifically with Nutella being a likely villager because it's KZA's first townread. And also because nutella has a somewhat polarized meta as far as I understand it, making townreading wolf!nutella there redundant since they'll be outed anyway.

I'm finally caught up and I think Amy's day phase so far hasn't been great. The vote on Alison specifically skeeves me out, because I've read all these arguments about dya/Amy having partner equity, and her suddenly voting the person dya's been pushing all game feels wrong. She's been going through the motions and posting reads, reads I actually didn't hate, but then she goes completely against them and decides to follow dya on their Alison wagon. It looks like she's trying to get a misyeet on Alison before she and her partner dya get yeeted. Dya being the other top wagon at the moment adds credibility to this theory.

At this point my read on Alison is less dependent on Alison and more on how her slot's been treated throughout the game. If Amy/dya are wolves then Alison is pretty much always town. If Amy/dya are town, more specifically dya, Alison's probably a wolf. In that world, I'm simply inclined to believe dya's right about their non-consensus wolfread. I specifically get flashback to Champs finale where this exact thing happened.

I usually hate preflips but yeah.

Might change my mind about this when I get to ISOing.

The - s are in chronological order.

Alison:

- Assumes that Gavial is "anti-town" rather than "mafia" in her very first post about Gavial. Calls his behavior NAI despite the presence of metareads in the thread at that point. (Nevermind that those meta reads were wrong, this is still important.)
- Calls Gavial "rand" and calls the people who vote for him based on him being anti-town "lazy."
- Claims Dizzy defending Gavial is a good look for Dizzy because it'd be a bad move for wolf!Dizzy regardless of Gavial's alignment. I actually agree with this point. Mentions that there's a solid chance of Gavial being a wolf.
- Responds to Amy's wolfread on Gavial by saying she isn't closed off to the possibility of Gavial being mafia.
- "I'm not ready to lock Gavial town." Weird progression jump there. It's like she's bouncing around a limbo where she sometimes implies Gavial's town and sometimes doesn't. This megahedge is odd.
- Calls Gavial's level of caring about the game NAI, thus continuing to refuse to call Gavial's alignment.
- Claims she isn't a Gavial expert.
- Continues to push the line that Gavial's NAI to her.
- Calls Gavial's VT claim kinda towny.

I... think this looks towny when viewed as a whole and in-context? KZA was the main CW yesterday, and KZA was a wolf. Alison spending the entire day refusing to call Gavial's alignment doesn't seem like a wolf play. I think she'd take one of two stances here: either bus or just push Gavial and listen to people's metareads. I'd even argue doing the latter benefits Alison more - not only does she get a misyeet, but she takes no blame for it, since she had given a lot of consideration toward Gavial's alignment and she wasn't the person with the mistaken metareads on Gavial. Her calling Gavial's VT claim "kinda towny" close to EoD also makes it more likely KZA gets yeeted, which prevents the wolves from getting a rolecop check. Their chances of getting it were tiny last night, since KZA was always getting vigged (they'd have to RB exactly the vig), and KZA would go day 2 anyway in that case. Still, it would be beneficial for the wolves (1 rolecop check is better than 0), and Alison didn't go for it. My impression of her wolfgame is that she knows what's optimal and what isn't. In that case, she didn't have much to lose by just accepting the Gavial push and joining it. In fact, her contrarian stance on Gavial is what got her scumread in the first place, yet another point in favor of Alison being town.

Might not be able to get all of these out, but I wanted to get this one out specifically.

good vulgard posts that i agree with

also the one about amy which is getting me to consider a world where amy is a wolf and dya isn't

Spoiler: show

im kind of offended people think i havent given reads outside of alison because i have

i'm also solidifying my read on tangy/chloe today. I think chloe's behavior in thread makes sense from her perspective as a sub thrown into this game. I like that she's taking small bites to read people instead of trying everyone at once? feel like a wolf would share reads more certainly than she has

I think your townread of alison is naive. I think it looks at level 1 play and I think alison plays at a higher level than that.

do you think there was actually a chance kza gets elimmed yesterday?

I think your townread of alison is naive. I think it looks at level 1 play and I think alison plays at a higher level than that.

do you think there was actually a chance kza gets elimmed yesterday?

What's the "higher-level" play Alison would've been doing there? Explain what you think her motivations for this could've been.

I think she was just TMI-ing someone that's clearly not like the others in this playlist (and lhf) to look good. alison can be very manipulative with her reads, she knows how people perceive them

you're defensive about having given more reads and yet... i just feel like every time you enter thread your focus is so narrow and you only reply to like 2 specific things at a time and i never know what your like, broader thoughts are at any given time

would love more transparency into your thoughts in general, i get that it's a light game and you dont want to put in a ton of effort or change your style but i just feel like some entire dimension is missing

like i can name some of your townreads, like chloe, visor, amy, but i don't have a lot of insight into your pov

i do fully agree with you about chloe, i'm quite confident she's just a villager at this point.

also, i think your response to vulgard's alison read is dismissive and shallow. it's like you're waving your hand and saying "no alison is better than that and would have deeper strategy" without actually digging into vulgard's reasoning and how he is in fact accounting for that. it also seems contradictory to say "she's aware of how her reads make her look, and also she obviously had TMI." honestly if you're town i think there's a decent chance you are right about alison by sheer poe, but i want to see you actually considering the angles of why her sorta messy progression on gav might actually come from an uninformed place.

finally, would love to hear more thoughts from you specifically on amy and zack with an updated view to their posts this phase and what you think they are accomplishing in thread, and what you think of the gripes that i, visor, vulgard, dizzy, etc have expressed. i'd like you to examine whether your earlier reasons to townread amy have really held up through d2.

you keep getting frustrated at my process though. It's not dismissive to point out that alison is better than that. It's just fucking TRUE. Alison is usually highly involved in games and gives good reasons for her reads. she's not doing that here. so I guess suck eggs

My read on amy hasn't changed for the most part. I think other people are doubting her but that's par for the course for amy being amy. People always start suspecting her more after a day phase. I've dealt with it first hand. As for zack, zack is slipping for me. I don't think he's done enough and at this point that's bad. I just don't feel like I even know his reads.

[bronana]

Spoiler: show

here is my brief summary of everyones posts in this game regarding KZA. this is mostly just for my own personal reference to pinpoint important parts of the game and to form an understanding of how the playerlist was approaching KZA on d1. i'm putting it here for posterity

alison - no references

amy - amy "wants to see more" from kza on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 99#p797999, throws light shade. amy puts kza's name on her list of wolfreads (w/a question mark) on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 01#p798601. says she is not opposed to killing kza on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 52#p799952. changes her mind on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 57#p799957 and says we should just kill gav instead. throws shade on KZA toward the EOD. weh. https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 98#p800198

arete - arete ....kind of shades KZA/implies that KZA is wolfy while also implying that them being chopped is essentially a meme/a pre-determined outcome. shrug. https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 39#p800039

bronana - drops a statement of neutrality on KZA on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 59#p797359. puts kza on the "nullish/mildly wolfy" tier on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 33#p798633. votes for kza on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 69#p799369. suggests killing kza or gavial on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 63#p799863. acts befuddled by some of kza's posts on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 15#p799915. elaborates on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 91#p800091

c4: mildly townleans kza on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 68#p797968 due to the similarity of their posts to CoV. (i'd like c4 to expand on that a little bit, because i thought KZA was playing pretty distinctly from CoV, and it was part of the reason why i wolfread them on d1). asks if he should bother developing a read on KZA on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 31#p800131. agrees that KZA should be killed next on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 39#p800139. (why did c4 think this when he had KZA in his list of mild townleans earlier in the day?) gives associative reads w/a KZA green and red flip on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 57#p800157 and https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 49#p801149

dyachei: lightly shades KZA on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 61#p799861. puts KZA as a wolflean on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 65#p800165

dyslexicon: softly defends and pushes back against the scumreads on KZA on https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 83#p800083, https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 85#p800085, https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 97#p800097, and https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 75#p800175

marluxion: softball interaction on https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 09#p797409. https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 28#p797428 wow this post didnt age well lol. says that kza/gavial aren't w/w on https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 53#p799953. suggest kza or dizzy as a cfd target on https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 61#p800061. brings up the downside to voting kza on https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 67#p800067

nutella: shades kza on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 62#p799062. (might be the first player in the game to do so?) puts kza on her list of townreads shortly after on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 36#p797236, and says she likes their vibes so far on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 55#p797955. huh? didn't you find his pop-in wolfy just a little bit before making that post? nutella seconds a list that puts kza as a potential wolf on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 02#p798602 only 4 hours after townreading kza. huh??? im getting whiplash

(i read nutella's progression on KZA on the 3rd page of her ISO backwards by accident. it looks much more natural when it's viewed in chronological order. i'm keeping this here because i think it's funny.)

voices support for a KZA wagon on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 73#p799273. calls KZA a wolf on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 58#p799858. votes for KZA on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 79#p799979. continues to reiterate KZA suspicions on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 43#p800043. continues voting KZA but voices support for a gavial wagon as well on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 98#p800098. voices support for killing kza regardless of gavial's flip on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 36#p800136. puts kza at the bottom of her readslist on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 92#p800192. says to vig kza on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 52#p800252.

outed wolf: lightly boosts suspicion against kza on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 67#p799267. (ie: "could see it.")

sunbae: throws out kza's name as a plausible suggestion for an alternative chop to gavial on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 65#p799265. that's it

tangrowth: hedges on kza's alignment on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 13#p798313. puts kza as upper POE on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 56#p799756. dodges hally's question about KZA's placement on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 67#p800167 by saying that it was "off the top of my head". ISOs KZA on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 17#p800217 and comes out feeling unsure why they're being voted. lightly suggests chopping gavial over kza on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 34#p800234 while still not showing a strong preference

vulgard: puts kza in the "no impressions" list on https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 08#p797408. calls kza wolfy on https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 26#p797526. reiterates the kza suspicion on https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 31#p798131. has a brief exchange with kza about his read on them on https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 92#p799392.

having read this and done zero personal factchecking the one I'm most about is Sunbae, because they came into today trying to get a bunch of cred for KZA and if they really only mentioned them once that's kind of weird

...honestly I care more about that then the people who thought they could be a villager, apart from people with a hard no-bussing meta (which I don't know if anyone in this game has) I think there's a fair amount of WifoM with 'would Mafia actually defend KZA day 1'


(also unrelatedly I think you're misreading my post a bit, I wasn't trying to suggest it was a meme so much as a shrugyeet on someone for being uninspiring moreso than wolfy-except-by-PoE, that might be on me for communicating badly though)

i like that observation about sunbae because i had a similar concern - i dont understand why sunbae felt that he should be cleared/townread off of his push on KZA when it wasn't really much of a push at all. i concede that sunbae brought up KZA's name at a time when the wagon realistically could have swayed onto them, but there was enough suspicion against KZA in general (from people like nutella/hally/myself) that it's hard for me to really give points for that

my feelings about sunbae are mostly positive i think? but i was slightly put off by that as well

I don't think it's that weird for a villager to think "ha, yeah I was right lock clear me lesgoooo" when from an outsider perspective it doesn't actually seem that clearing. humans just in general tend to give themselves more credit for positive things and absolve a bit of blame for bad things (has a single person*not excused themselves of blame for gav's misyeet?)

[nutella]

you keep getting frustrated at my process though. It's not dismissive to point out that alison is better than that. It's just fucking TRUE. Alison is usually highly involved in games and gives good reasons for her reads. she's not doing that here. so I guess suck eggs

you're still ENTIRELY missing my point and vulgard's

reread his post

he explains why alison's progression makes sense from an uninformed perspective, and why if she was a wolf her strategy would be different

and like.... this response is just continuing to be dismissive tbh. I've stated MULTIPLE times that I've seen Alison take a more laid back approach as town many times, and you're not actually delving into why you think her approach is indicative of her having wolf pov or not besides just saying "she had tmi" over and over

i'm really set off by this response because you're just not listening to anything i've said about alison at all


thanks for the takes on amy and zack

[dyachei]

you keep getting frustrated at my process though. It's not dismissive to point out that alison is better than that. It's just fucking TRUE. Alison is usually highly involved in games and gives good reasons for her reads. she's not doing that here. so I guess suck eggs

you're still ENTIRELY missing my point and vulgard's

reread his post

he explains why alison's progression makes sense from an uninformed perspective, and why if she was a wolf her strategy would be different

and like.... this response is just continuing to be dismissive tbh. I've stated MULTIPLE times that I've seen Alison take a more laid back approach as town many times, and you're not actually delving into why you think her approach is indicative of her having wolf pov or not besides just saying "she had tmi" over and over

i'm really set off by this response because you're just not listening to anything i've said about alison at all


thanks for the takes on amy and zack

I'm listening I just don't agree nutella. you telling me things doesn't mean I'm going to agree with them just because you have your perspective. Hell I'm not even leaning you villa yet, why would I trust what you're saying over my own thoughts on it.

so be tilted, Idfc