Game Over! Monty Python and the Holy Grail

#1951

There are a lot of possibilities with no known roles. As afar as i am concerned this has nothing to do with APs role. But Enrique bundled them together, so I replied to that bundle.

It's a theory. I find it more likely than the lovers, but last time i looked, i was not infallible

Linki @ Made, not that I know fo that's just rude

Linki, good question JC

#1952

I mean, either he knows, or he does not know, how he survived.

#1953

S~V~S wrote:I mean, either he knows, or he does not know, how he survived.

Yes, but it's possible he THINKS he knows how he survived but doesn't really know.

#1954

Well, though, he has not answered the question, despite being in the forum. So I will hold judgement on all the possibilities (which might be legion) until he does so.

#1955

juliets wrote:Made, I don't think anyone has asked you this straight out: do you know what happened in the lynch that resulted in you being saved? This is a yes or no question as I'm sure it would break the rules for you to expound on it.

Yes

#1956

Made wrote:Killing a thread 101

#1957

S~V~S wrote:The conjecture is that perhaps AP & Made were the Lovers~ Lovers roles have a connection. The commonest one is if one of them is targeted/lynched, the other dies, and in this game Concordes character would work pretty well for that.

This would also make a lot of sense for why AP would vote for himself if it were Made that would die instead? Also Made answering yes to Juliets' question makes me think this is even more likely.

#1958

Dana wrote:
S~V~S wrote:The conjecture is that perhaps AP & Made were the Lovers~ Lovers roles have a connection. The commonest one is if one of them is targeted/lynched, the other dies, and in this game Concordes character would work pretty well for that.
This would also make a lot of sense for why AP would vote for himself if it were Made that would die instead? Also Made answering yes to Juliets' question makes me think this is even more likely.

But then why would he pretend not to know what Canuck was talking about? I'm not buying it. Not buying it at all.

#1959

thellama73 wrote:
Dana wrote:
S~V~S wrote:The conjecture is that perhaps AP & Made were the Lovers~ Lovers roles have a connection. The commonest one is if one of them is targeted/lynched, the other dies, and in this game Concordes character would work pretty well for that.
This would also make a lot of sense for why AP would vote for himself if it were Made that would die instead? Also Made answering yes to Juliets' question makes me think this is even more likely.
But then why would he pretend not to know what Canuck was talking about? I'm not buying it. Not buying it at all.

I didn't know what Canuck was talking about either until SVS spelled it out. Made definitely couldn't confirm Canuck's theory because that would be role outing and Roxy/DP would murder him.

#1960

Dana wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Dana wrote:
S~V~S wrote:The conjecture is that perhaps AP & Made were the Lovers~ Lovers roles have a connection. The commonest one is if one of them is targeted/lynched, the other dies, and in this game Concordes character would work pretty well for that.
This would also make a lot of sense for why AP would vote for himself if it were Made that would die instead? Also Made answering yes to Juliets' question makes me think this is even more likely.
But then why would he pretend not to know what Canuck was talking about? I'm not buying it. Not buying it at all.
I didn't know what Canuck was talking about either until SVS spelled it out. Made definitely couldn't confirm Canuck's theory because that would be role outing and Roxy/DP would murder him.

Not confirming a theory is completely different from actively pretending to not understand it, which is hardly credible if he knew that AP would die in his place.

#1961

Now Dana is defending Made and I'm starting to suspect her too!

#1962

S~V~S wrote:This would have nothing to do with APs role; I am talking about a pattern of support the entire game. I think they definitely would like to capitalize on the possibilities of APs role. The BeaNuck theory is very possible. With manips it is also possible that Made was not the person lynched; he did not act like someone about to die.

But the seemer thing would work regardless of the AP lynch. You are overcomplicating this a bit, IMO.

I agree that it's possible that Made didn't win that poll. I'm curious as to the people you think of as Made's support system.

Catching up in bits and pieces - I see in linking I'm missing things.

#1963

Hey man, I'm not defending, just trying to look at all the options here. Since Made did know how he was saved, what do you think it could have been? If they weren't lovers then that must mean he or a teammate had to have switched it.

#1964

I... Made, what? Do you know for a fact what saved you?

#1965

Would he say yes if he was unsure?

#1966

I'm starting to think we are dealing with the ballsiest mafia team in mafia history.

#1967

Oh God. I wish I had Made''s courage, but I have no idea. If he's dismissing BeaNuk's idea then I have no idea why I'm supposed to trust him...?

#1968

Ok - so - that wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.

Made - I gotta be honest with you man. I wasn't defending or condeming you when I brought up the idea of A person's role potentially being a lover's role. I was just trying to explore the options as to what could have happened. My mind's still not really made up on you. (oi! look what I did there!)

linki w/ well...everyone. What llama says - and also what enrique suave says.

#1969

Dana wrote:Would he say yes if he was unsure?

Yes.

#1970

#1971

thellama73 wrote:I'm starting to think we are dealing with the ballsiest mafia team in mafia history.

You're not because i'm a civvie

.

Enrique wrote:I... Made, what? Do you know for a fact what saved you?

Not for a fact, but I am almost positive.

#1972

My brainz are hurting.

This no roles thing is harder in a larger game. interesting and fun, but harder.

#1973

S~V~S wrote:So, my theory is also about a role possibility. And the thing that kept popping into my head was DharmaHelper in the first recruitment game being a seemer role. He came up as a mystery civvie role; in that game, not all roles were revealed immediately. So a role no one ever heard of was a possibility. And it allowed the baddie team to claim a role that no one else had, so no one could dispute it. It also got his teammates tons of cred, as I recall it, although I could have that wrong.

LoRab wrote:I also thought of the possibility of a seemer role. I had the first seemer role, so it always goes through my mind. But I'm not seeing how it's the case here. I'm also confused. You're speculating that Made might be a seemer-type role and baddie teammates switched the lynch and are possibly setting up for what role they've chosen? And would that have just meant they got lucky with who they chose for the lynch?

Ah, my Seemers.

The first Seemer was in Mafia: A World Apart (sequel coming soon!), and it was Lorab. I'm so happy with the role-type taking on the name. Someone should do a baddie team that are all different kinds of Seemer.

Well, S~V~S, I've had my share of suspicion of you, I think we can agree. Let me tell you what this sounds like to me, and let me know if I'm crazy to come up with this possibility.

In my scenario, you are a baddie, and you think it's more than likely Made will turn up Civvie... so you had better sow a seed of doubt a la Seemer into the mix. Then when you turn up with your fingerprints among the many others all over his lynch, we are supposed to think "Maybe he wasn't King Arthur/Sir Galahad/Sir Lancelot/whatever... he was probably a Seemer!"

S~V~S, I'm sure you can see that this conclusion isn't isn't overly intricate. I'm also sure that there's assumptions you will challenge to show the weaknesses in the idea. But there it is, so just don't be surprised that you're still one of the more prominent names on my lynch list. MAFIA, am I right?

#1974

Long Con wrote: In my scenario, you are a baddie, and you think it's more than likely Made will turn up Civvie... so you had better sow a seed of doubt a la Seemer into the mix.

I've considered this, but it's just SVS has been so on point all game. Every point she's made seems easily, or at least logically derived. However, her being the most best player on this website, i have to suspect this is an act, given a very well played act

#1975

Made wrote:
Long Con wrote: In my scenario, you are a baddie, and you think it's more than likely Made will turn up Civvie... so you had better sow a seed of doubt a la Seemer into the mix.
I've considered this, but it's just SVS has been so on point all game. Every point she's made seems easily, or at least logically derived. However, her being the most best player on this website, i have to suspect this is an act, given a very well played act

Well, being able to do that is, like, a prerequisite for being the best, as she certainly is.

#1976

thellama73 wrote:Doesn't the fact that Made professes not to understand the theory somewhat undermine the theory?

Lulz. As a main pusher of this theory, I'm going to go ahead and swallow my pride and say a big 'Yuuuup!" to this one and skulk away sheepishly to reconsider my life choices.

(Sorry if conversation has moved way beyond this, I'm just catching up)

#1977

Enrique wrote:Not really? It doesn't have to be a part of his role, just AP's. Like Canuck, I'm not suggesting they had BTSC.

I guess that's true. I was kinda imagining a scenario in which they knew the other existed, but didn't know who it was, possibly had to search for each other to get btsc?
I suppose it's possible that Concorde's lover might be oblivious to the arrangement, but I will be honest and say that my theoretical speculations were based on an assumption that they at least knew that they HAD a lover, if not precisely who the lover was.

So Made's denial is a pretty big plot hole for me, personally...

(Catching up catching up tralalalala)

#1978

Dana wrote:
S~V~S wrote:The conjecture is that perhaps AP & Made were the Lovers~ Lovers roles have a connection. The commonest one is if one of them is targeted/lynched, the other dies, and in this game Concordes character would work pretty well for that.
This would also make a lot of sense for why AP would vote for himself if it were Made that would die instead? Also Made answering yes to Juliets' question makes me think this is even more likely.

I come to the opposite conclusion from these same facts.

#1979

I think I missed Made's denial, that seems like it's an important thing. When was that? Sometimes catching up on the phone, you miss things.

#1980

Made wrote:
juliets wrote:Made, I don't think anyone has asked you this straight out: do you know what happened in the lynch that resulted in you being saved? This is a yes or no question as I'm sure it would break the rules for you to expound on it.
Yes

#1981

Then right after that I said i'm pretty sure but not certain. Regardless, that's pretty much it.

#1982

My read on Juliet has gone completely out the window now btw. No clue wtf is going on on that planet.

#1983

LoRab wrote:
Dana wrote:
S~V~S wrote:The conjecture is that perhaps AP & Made were the Lovers~ Lovers roles have a connection. The commonest one is if one of them is targeted/lynched, the other dies, and in this game Concordes character would work pretty well for that.
This would also make a lot of sense for why AP would vote for himself if it were Made that would die instead? Also Made answering yes to Juliets' question makes me think this is even more likely.
I come to the opposite conclusion from these same facts.

Can you explain this, please?

#1984

In other news (since I did vow to stop talking about a spear ion that can't be verified unless Made is lynched...and possibly not even then, given that Seemers have now been thrown into the mix), I find that my suspects list has some crossover with julietz.

I still have suspicions of Mongoose: though her answers to my pro dings were reasonable and didn't increase my suspicion of her, I'm not sure that they effectively quelled it either.

I feel like its one of those situations where my suspicion is half thread-based an half gut-based, so even though her response was not a bad one, I'm still on the fence about whether or not she will get my vote today.

I mentioned earlier that I had been pinged by MM, but wasn't able to find what had pinged me, so I'm interested to hear that others are also pinged. I entirely missed somehow Made's case on him that juliets brings up, so I guess I need to have a look for that. (I thought Made's big offensive salvo was against MR? Am I mixing the m-folk up, or were their two separate cases?)

#1985

Canucklehead wrote: I mentioned earlier that I had been pinged by MM, but wasn't able to find what had pinged me, so I'm interested to hear that others are also pinged. I entirely missed somehow Made's case on him that juliets brings up, so I guess I need to have a look for that. (I thought Made's big offensive salvo was against MR? Am I mixing the m-folk up, or were their two separate cases?)

Meant to mention this earlier. i've probably voiced a wariness of MM this game, but my big argument was against MR.

#1986

LC: this is where Made denies the lovers theory (or at least deies understanding what the theory is):

Made wrote:
Enrique wrote:
Made wrote:Organized by how much they wanted the booty
1. Canuck
2. Enrique (tho he's trying to separate himself from me might warrant him lower on the list)
3. Bea
4. Bullz
4. reywaS
5. BWT (Barely made the list, his lack of aggression towards me makes me think he think favorably of me, but could be me misinterpreting his caution of put me on the defensive.)

Night 2 is when most of my reinforcements arrived. Fucking fair weather friends...
I don't think i'm forgetting anyone, but iunno.
Players are allowed to change their minds. In light of AP's lynch and the surrounding theories, I trust you.

@ Blooper - Look at AP's role, then look at that role in the context of the movie. Maybe you'll see what we're getting at.

Also, I haven't seen the movie, which probably explains why this theory hasn't clicked for me yet.

#1987

LoRab wrote:
Dana wrote:
S~V~S wrote:The conjecture is that perhaps AP & Made were the Lovers~ Lovers roles have a connection. The commonest one is if one of them is targeted/lynched, the other dies, and in this game Concordes character would work pretty well for that.
This would also make a lot of sense for why AP would vote for himself if it were Made that would die instead? Also Made answering yes to Juliets' question makes me think this is even more likely.
I come to the opposite conclusion from these same facts.

Ha! That is a beautiful response Lorab.

I don't see why AP voting for himself would enter into a Lovers arrangement.

There's the concept that a lynch switch can only go to a person with a vote, and there's the concept that Made's-role-that-no-one-will name-celot was under a Lovers-style protection from Concorde. I'm having difficulty understanding Dana's post with that in mind.

#1988

LoRab, Queen of Fresh Eyes and Snappy Retorts: did your mammoth catch-up result in any thoughts on the folks on juliets list?

#1989

Is it possible Made could be that role and just not know the movie, and so not understand the context? Or is that far-fetched?

#1990

yea - and of course - the switch could have been done to someone so made still isn't rolethatnoonewilnamecelot - which could make Made bad or still civ.

I'm getting very confused as to trying to figure out a way where Made can be a civ, knows how he survived and it's *not* because there was a Lover's connection.

blah. - co-hosting roxy shenanagins is very different from playing them!

linki - LC - I would think the connection would have been explained in the *secrets* part for both parties. BTS or not - someone dying for you - or you dying for someone else seems to be something both roles would have been told.

Am I moving too far fetched to think that made could have been some other civ role that had a switch - like a mayor role? switched it to someone else - *that* person was lancolot and a person died? It feels like I'm working too hard to find a reason for Made to be a civ in this scenario.

#1991

#1992

Long Con wrote:
LoRab wrote:
Dana wrote:
S~V~S wrote:The conjecture is that perhaps AP & Made were the Lovers~ Lovers roles have a connection. The commonest one is if one of them is targeted/lynched, the other dies, and in this game Concordes character would work pretty well for that.
This would also make a lot of sense for why AP would vote for himself if it were Made that would die instead? Also Made answering yes to Juliets' question makes me think this is even more likely.
I come to the opposite conclusion from these same facts.
Ha! That is a beautiful response Lorab.

I don't see why AP voting for himself would enter into a Lovers arrangement.

There's the concept that a lynch switch can only go to a person with a vote, and there's the concept that Made's-role-that-no-one-will name-celot was under a Lovers-style protection from Concorde. I'm having difficulty understanding Dana's post with that in mind.

What I meant by that was if AP knew that Made getting all the votes would mean he dies, maybe he voted for himself in hopes to bring his votes up enough to save himself and kill Made. But with Made saying now that he's not completely certain and only thinks he knows how he was saved, I'm not sure this idea holds much weight, if any.

#1993

Dana wrote:
Long Con wrote:
LoRab wrote:
Dana wrote:
S~V~S wrote:The conjecture is that perhaps AP & Made were the Lovers~ Lovers roles have a connection. The commonest one is if one of them is targeted/lynched, the other dies, and in this game Concordes character would work pretty well for that.
This would also make a lot of sense for why AP would vote for himself if it were Made that would die instead? Also Made answering yes to Juliets' question makes me think this is even more likely.
I come to the opposite conclusion from these same facts.
Ha! That is a beautiful response Lorab.

I don't see why AP voting for himself would enter into a Lovers arrangement.

There's the concept that a lynch switch can only go to a person with a vote, and there's the concept that Made's-role-that-no-one-will name-celot was under a Lovers-style protection from Concorde. I'm having difficulty understanding Dana's post with that in mind.
What I meant by that was if AP knew that Made getting all the votes would mean he dies, maybe he voted for himself in hopes to bring his votes up enough to save himself and kill Made. But with Made saying now that he's not completely certain and only thinks he knows how he was saved, I'm not sure this idea holds much weight, if any.

So, a "Worst Lover Ever" kind of situation?

#1994

Honest reaction: When I saw SVS say "lovers" for the first time, I thought she meant Canuck saying she could kiss me...

How embarassing.

#1995

Long Con wrote:
S~V~S wrote:So, my theory is also about a role possibility. And the thing that kept popping into my head was DharmaHelper in the first recruitment game being a seemer role. He came up as a mystery civvie role; in that game, not all roles were revealed immediately. So a role no one ever heard of was a possibility. And it allowed the baddie team to claim a role that no one else had, so no one could dispute it. It also got his teammates tons of cred, as I recall it, although I could have that wrong.

LoRab wrote:I also thought of the possibility of a seemer role. I had the first seemer role, so it always goes through my mind. But I'm not seeing how it's the case here. I'm also confused. You're speculating that Made might be a seemer-type role and baddie teammates switched the lynch and are possibly setting up for what role they've chosen? And would that have just meant they got lucky with who they chose for the lynch?
Ah, my Seemers. The first Seemer was in Mafia: A World Apart (sequel coming soon!), and it was Lorab. I'm so happy with the role-type taking on the name. Someone should do a baddie team that are all different kinds of Seemer.

Well, S~V~S, I've had my share of suspicion of you, I think we can agree. Let me tell you what this sounds like to me, and let me know if I'm crazy to come up with this possibility.

In my scenario, you are a baddie, and you think it's more than likely Made will turn up Civvie... so you had better sow a seed of doubt a la Seemer into the mix. Then when you turn up with your fingerprints among the many others all over his lynch, we are supposed to think "Maybe he wasn't King Arthur/Sir Galahad/Sir Lancelot/whatever... he was probably a Seemer!"

S~V~S, I'm sure you can see that this conclusion isn't isn't overly intricate. I'm also sure that there's assumptions you will challenge to show the weaknesses in the idea. But there it is, so just don't be surprised that you're still one of the more prominent names on my lynch list. MAFIA, am I right?

I was waiting for someone to make this post

What I am saying is we should NOT lynch Made; unless he flips bad, we learn nothing and spent the rest of the game arguing over a speculation. I think we should lynch someone in his circle of trust and see what happens. Becasue him being a Seemer is the best explanation I can come up with for that circle of trust. The same people keep coming in to shore him up; you, Enrique, Canuck. But why? That is what I am trying to solve for. I thought early in the game that he & Enrique had civ BTS, but both have pushed against each other, which civ BTS partners would not need to do. You have a fairly constant low level protection of him going on, and you & Canuck seem pretty simpatico. Then she is the biggest proponent of the Lovers thing. I was wondering which of the three of you would make this post. Not too surprised it was you.

Running late today. Not sure what I plan to do just yet, votewise, I had less time this cycle than I would have liked, that pesky family

I won't be voting for Made.

#1996

EBWOP~ If either theory is right, and either of them is possible, although I still think the lynch was either switched to AP, or to his partner, then lynching Made is a very bad idea, IMO, and we should not do it.

#1997

And one more before I go to work~ I think we should do just what Made told us to do, basically forget about him for now, ignore him. And talk about other suspicions. There are too many variables & possibilities regarding him. We need to approach this from another direction, because we are getting bogged down.

#1998

Made wrote:Organized by how much they wanted the booty
1. Canuck
2. Enrique (tho he's trying to separate himself from me might warrant him lower on the list)
3. Bea
4. Bullz
4. reywaS
5. BWT (Barely made the list, his lack of aggression towards me makes me think he think favorably of me, but could be me misinterpreting his caution of put me on the defensive.)

Night 2 is when most of my reinforcements arrived. Fucking fair weather friends...
I don't think i'm forgetting anyone, but iunno.

I still don't particularly trust you. I just think there are a lot of potential explanations and right now you're just as likely to be good as bad IMO so I'll probably stick with JC or take a look at MM after that ping from earlier.

nijuukyugou wrote:
thellama73 wrote:I like your sarcastic tone, Blooper, for what that's worth.
Apparently my students do, too. I think they might think I'm joking

I think it might be the only way I can vent without getting in trouble...

Sarcastic teachers are the best. I'm particularly fond of the ones who don't take shit and will rip into students for being lazy or misbehaving.

thellama73 wrote:Doesn't the fact that Made professes not to understand the theory somewhat undermine the theory?

Not if he hasn't seen the film.

Long Con wrote: In my scenario, you are a baddie, and you think it's more than likely Made will turn up Civvie... so you had better sow a seed of doubt a la Seemer into the mix. Then when you turn up with your fingerprints among the many others all over his lynch, we are supposed to think "Maybe he wasn't King Arthur/Sir Galahad/Sir Lancelot/whatever... he was probably a Seemer!"

Interesting that you bring this up, because whenever I see someone after a civ lynch saying that the person was probably a seemer I just automatically assume they're bad for some reason. I think it's because it always comes off to me as an hard-to-verify excuse for lynching a civ - "Oh what a shame such an important civ died and I helped kill them. Actually that person was soooo obviously bad, they must have been a seemer! It's okay everyone, don't worry, nobody here is responsible for a dead civ because he was actually bad all along!". That's all I see. I think part of it comes from a game on RM (Rey's one that didn't have a specific theme, just loads of characters he likes from various media) where two or three people in a row were all accused of being seemers and none were.

bea wrote: linki - LC - I would think the connection would have been explained in the *secrets* part for both parties. BTS or not - someone dying for you - or you dying for someone else seems to be something both roles would have been told.

Am I moving too far fetched to think that made could have been some other civ role that had a switch - like a mayor role? switched it to someone else - *that* person was lancolot and a person died? It feels like I'm working too hard to find a reason for Made to be a civ in this scenario.

I'm not saying this is definitely the case but... If you're a civ who knows another civ will die for you, and then that happens in an obvious way (such as them dying when you should have been lynched) might you not pretend to be unsure about what happened for your own protection? This made perfect sense in my head at first but as I type it out I become less certain.

Today I intend to reread MM and JC. I will probably vote for one of the two but I also want to look back on Made's case against MR and the LC-SVS conversation.

#1999

S~V~S wrote:And one more before I go to work~ I think we should do just what Made told us to do, basically forget about him for now, ignore him. And talk about other suspicions. There are too many variables & possibilities regarding him. We need to approach this from another direction, because we are getting bogged down.

I agree with this 40000% and have tried to bring some focus to my suspects. I intend to keep doing so if I get a chance this afternoon ...but crazy Thursday is crazy, so I might be SOL

I understand that SVS suspects me and I understand why. It's not unreasonable. It's dead wrong, but not unreasonable. For those of you who share her suspicion, all I can say is that I've never thought of my theory support as specifically defending Made, but rather as looking at all options (but, since I didn't share the Made suspicions before the lynch craziness, I was more inclined to see my version as the "simple" version, and sure. That can totally look like I'm defending Made rather than defending my speculation)

I can't speak for Enrique or LC's motives/thoughts, But I CAN assure you that we are not on a baddie team together. I have agreed with LC on some things, but not on others (I didn't and don't agree with his suspicions of you, SVS). Enrique seems to be playing a straightforward/in your face type game, and he has agreed with me on a few things.

I get why and how you are reading us as a ballsy baddie trifecta and seeing connections between us, but they're not anything other than agreeing on a few points. We are not working together. I have no idea if LC or Enrique is good or bad. My inclination t this point is that they're both civ, but I admit that I generally tend to think people that agree with me are civ when I'm a civ (this is a bad habit, I know).

I'm happy to answer any questions or address concerns that people have about me. I'm also very happy to hear other people's thoughts on Mongoose and MM...especially MM, since it really is driving me nuts that I cannot find the posts of his that made me suspicious of him in the first place...

#2000

Frankly, at this point, the only chance I think I have at understanding this game at all depends on knowing Made's role. I am going to cast my vote for him now. I have to know!

How did Das Porcu do co-hosting his first game?