Game Over! Monty Python and the Holy Grail

[bea]

I also haven't changed my feelings on Mongoose. I will likely be voting for her or Bullzeye today. I find Bullzeye's arguments for Boogs' baddieness little thin. Just because we haven't seen a "curse" before, it doesn't mean it's fake. I've seen plenty of curse roles that can invent the way they curse... every single one I ever do, for instance. Not that I cursed Boogs. Not my style of curse.

I just think that there was something that made Boogs come after Bullz, and that Bullz' reaction was a bit over-the-top. I have to read the MM thing over again, that seemed interesting.

The idea of you with a cursing role frightens me almost as much as when SVS has the cursing role.

[Long Con]

I also haven't changed my feelings on Mongoose. I will likely be voting for her or Bullzeye today. I find Bullzeye's arguments for Boogs' baddieness little thin. Just because we haven't seen a "curse" before, it doesn't mean it's fake. I've seen plenty of curse roles that can invent the way they curse... every single one I ever do, for instance. Not that I cursed Boogs. Not my style of curse.

I just think that there was something that made Boogs come after Bullz, and that Bullz' reaction was a bit over-the-top. I have to read the MM thing over again, that seemed interesting.

The idea of you with a cursing role frightens me almost as much as when SVS has the cursing role.

I've had hosts agree to a curse that requires the victim to only tell the truth. Suckas.

[Dana]

I am extremely sorry for not being around. I've seen a few people admit to being silenced so if that won't get me in trouble... I wasn't sure if the silence counted the night period too or just the day, so I didn't speak just to be safe. And then after that I sort of got distracted with exams and life and all of that fun stuff. Once again, I apologize. I'm catching up now and will definitely share my thoughts sometime before the lynch.

[Bullzeye]

Bullz - you know what you are right. I really screwed the poochie with my MM vote and in hindsite really didn't come back and say much. That was totally because of my personal headspace at that time and not because of the game. I got super lazy toward the game. That was the vote that ended last Friday right? It sticks out to me because I was on my out of town trip during the SVS lynch, got home Thursday and tried to cram the three days I'd missed into my super exausted head. I had to work early the next day and tried to check in as much as I could and tried to get as much info as I could when I able to. Fridays-Sundays are super busy in the pizza shop. I almost didn't make it with enough time vote and skimmed thread. My thinking at the time was honestly "Crap! I have to do this and get back to orders! I think lorab's pretty good at reading people and I think bullz is too. I'm going to go ahead and follow them on this one."

I am not laying blame for my poor vote at the feet of anyone but myself. I should have come back and said something and I didn't. I was tired. I honestly have been pretty run down since I got back. Yesterday was the first day I felt near normal.

I was not trying to save goosey. I'm pretty undecided on her tbh. She's in my "?" category. Blooper and JC are in that category as well.

I have had civ feelings about Dana, but her continued absense from the game is troubling to me.

Fair enough. Like I said it's only the one vote of yours that has stuck out to me, everything else you've done all game had me feeling good about you. If Mongoose flips bad, I'll be suspecting you and Niju and Hedge but if she's civ you will come off that list. Niju and Hedge won't though because Niju I feel is quite blendy and Hedge got defensive over her MM vote IMO. She acted like me saying the bandwagon came out of nowhere was completely unfounded when if you actually look at the votes none of his voters really seem to put much thought into it. Seems like she had something to hide.

I've got about an hour and a half before I leave, then I probably won't be around much until tomorrow night. I will follow along on my phone and respond to anything that really needs a response but as I said earlier I don't like to post from my phone (the home key is right underneath the space bar and the amount of times I accidentally close a window while typing is unbelievable) so maybe don't expect to see too much.

[juliets]

I'm about to leave in the next 30 minutes or so and probably won't be back before the lynch. I'm disappointed hedge did not outline her case against me so i could respond before the lynch. I am sticking with my gut and voting Mongoose again, the two primary reasons are I still think something was hinky about calling canuck a red herring and then not being able to recall right away what that was all about. In addition, I truly believe the MM votes were a save of Mongoose.

*votes Mongoose*

[LoRab]

@dana: you were silenced the last day period? Wouldn't that make 2 silenced people? Have we had a day with more than one person silenced? Your post isn't ringing true.

[Dana]

@dana: you were silenced the last day period? Wouldn't that make 2 silenced people? Have we had a day with more than one person silenced? Your post isn't ringing true.

Not the last day period, the one before last.

[Canucklehead]

Hmmmmm.....I'm actually surprised/worried by the lack of defenders coming out to try and save Mongoose (possibly for the second time). There are a few scenarios I can think of for why this might be:
1) Maybe they've thrown in the towel and can't risk the obviousness of saving her again? Possible. This sort of sacrificial strategy makes the most sense if her teammates are under very little suspicion right now and don't want to risk blowing their cover. If this is the case, than I think her teammates will be those whose acquiesence to the "lynch Mongoose" plan came with very little discussion of her previously, who were a part of the MM voters, and who are currently riding a wave of civ-seemingness in the thread.
2) Maybe she's a civ and therefore has no defenders? Unlikely (I think), but within the realm of possibility I suppose.
3) Maybe, like I mentioned before, she has a lynch/kill protection built into her role, and her baddie team is so confident with their position that they no longer feel that the risks of using up the save outweigh the benefits of hiding among the Mongoose voters? I am thinking more and more that this might be the case.
And its making me paranoid....because a baddie team that confident with this many players left makes me wonder about a bunch of assumptions that I have been operating under that I now want to reconsider.

[bea]

@ dana - so that was the MM lynch then?

[bea]

[quote="Canucklehead"]Hmmmmm.....I'm actually surprised/worried by the lack of defenders coming out to try and save Mongoose (possibly for the second time). There are a few scenarios I can think of for why this might be:
1) Maybe they've thrown in the towel and can't risk the obviousness of saving her again? Possible. This sort of sacrificial strategy makes the most sense if her teammates are under very little suspicion right now and don't want to risk blowing their cover. If this is the case, than I think her teammates will be those whose acquiesence to the "lynch Mongoose" plan came with very little discussion of her previously, who were a part of the MM voters, and who are currently riding a wave of civ-seemingness in the thread.
2) Maybe she's a civ and therefore has no defenders? Unlikely (I think), but within the realm of possibility I suppose.
3) Maybe, like I mentioned before, she has a lynch/kill protection built into her role, and her baddie team is so confident with their position that they no longer feel that the risks of using up the save outweigh the benefits of hiding among the Mongoose voters? I am thinking more and more that this might be the case.
And its making me paranoid....because a baddie team that confident with this many players left makes me wonder about a bunch of assumptions that I have been operating under that I now want to reconsider.
[/quote

So you think options 1 or 3 are most likely the reasons why she is lacking in defenders?

[Canucklehead]

I am voting Mongoose for now, because I think either scenario 1 or 3 are what is happening. If it's 1, then we not only get a baddie but we have a good idea of where to look for her teamies. If it's 3, best case scenario we get rid of a lynch-save and can try again another day. Worst-case scenario, however, it's a lynch switch power.....which means we need to be REALLY WARY of any stray votes (b/c most lynch switches must switch to someone who has votes already.....). This would likely result in losing a civ, which would be VERY bad at this point, I think.....
I'm not going to advocate for a unanimous Mongoose vote, because the lynch-switch/save theory is obviously just speculation on my part and my thoughts on Mongoose's baddiness are obviously just my thoughts, but I am going to be watching closely to see what goes down during this vote....and whilst Mongoose is leading the votes and until this day is over, I am going to feel unreasonably afraid for whomever Mongoose decides to vote for.

On preview, I suppose that scenario 2 could also theoretically be correct AND parts of 3 could be correct (i.e. she's a civ with a lynch save in her pocket).....this seems unlikely to me, but I'll admit that I'm biased b/c I've been holding onto this suspicion for a long time now.

Yes, all....we've already arrived at the part of the game where Canuck's head gets super duper paranoid and starts thinking crazy things. Apologies in advance. You have been warned.

linki: bea, you read my mind. :P

[bea]

Not so much read it as trying to make sure I understood it.

[Canucklehead]

That is a terrifying task to set for yourself. No one should be subjected to trying to understand my mind. It's all dark and weird and goopy in there.

[Roxy]

I have been away and DP has handling everything!

Firstly - thank ye DP for being there!

Its DP's birthday so I would like everyone to wish DP A happy birthday with a short post/poem/video/picture/etc to be judged for a prize. you have until the end of todayto submit them in the thread.

[Tangrowth]

Can dead players participate in this contest?

[Canucklehead]

Firsties!
Mine has a picture AND a haiku.

Gimme my prize, please.

[Tangrowth]

[Roxy]

Can dead players participate in this contest?

why yes, yes you can!

[Tangrowth]

Can dead players participate in this contest?

why yes, yes you can!

Awesome!

Sadly, I don't think I can beat Canuck's stroke of genius. But I may try anyway.

[Hedgeowl]

Hedgie I saw you were here earlier and even that you posted in another thread. Why didn't you answer my questions from this morning? I need an opportunity to respond to whatever you think makes me baddie.

Sadly didnt have as much time to read through your and LCs posts as I thought. I will try to post something about it now.

Also, I don't think I saw anyone address my thought about the possible large recruitment team. Especially since it seems plenty of people are happy to vote Mongoose again. This late in the game there should be a lot of baddies still I assume and it feels so weird that everyone is agreeing so much. Also voting for Mongoose now because she made a weird case defending Llama (who we now know is civ!) makes no sense to me. I think the reason for Mongoose have changed somewhat, but am surprised people are ignoring it so easily. I am more inclined to think that the Mongoose and MM lynch was civ v. civ and there was no save attempt actually.

I think Juliets and LC are in this group, but not sure who else.

[Hedgeowl]

I'm about to leave in the next 30 minutes or so and probably won't be back before the lynch. I'm disappointed hedge did not outline her case against me so i could respond before the lynch. I am sticking with my gut and voting Mongoose again, the two primary reasons are I still think something was hinky about calling canuck a red herring and then not being able to recall right away what that was all about. In addition, I truly believe the MM votes were a save of Mongoose.

*votes Mongoose*

Ah sorry, I might put this on hold then.

[Hedgeowl]

I am voting Mongoose for now, because I think either scenario 1 or 3 are what is happening. If it's 1, then we not only get a baddie but we have a good idea of where to look for her teamies. If it's 3, best case scenario we get rid of a lynch-save and can try again another day. Worst-case scenario, however, it's a lynch switch power.....which means we need to be REALLY WARY of any stray votes (b/c most lynch switches must switch to someone who has votes already.....). This would likely result in losing a civ, which would be VERY bad at this point, I think.....
I'm not going to advocate for a unanimous Mongoose vote, because the lynch-switch/save theory is obviously just speculation on my part and my thoughts on Mongoose's baddiness are obviously just my thoughts, but I am going to be watching closely to see what goes down during this vote....and whilst Mongoose is leading the votes and until this day is over, I am going to feel unreasonably afraid for whomever Mongoose decides to vote for.

On preview, I suppose that scenario 2 could also theoretically be correct AND parts of 3 could be correct (i.e. she's a civ with a lynch save in her pocket).....this seems unlikely to me, but I'll admit that I'm biased b/c I've been holding onto this suspicion for a long time now.

Yes, all....we've already arrived at the part of the game where Canuck's head gets super duper paranoid and starts thinking crazy things. Apologies in advance. You have been warned.

linki: bea, you read my mind. :P

Of your 3 scenarios, do you know which one is most likely? 2. But this reads like a nice attempt to cover yourself if she flips civ, kinda like the Made vote. I hadn't had specific baddies vibes from you, because you have suspected Mongoose for a long time, but honestly this post to me just sounds like an excuse.

[Long Con]

Ok, looks like a Mongoose lynch. I advocate this with a vote.

[Canucklehead]

I am voting Mongoose for now, because I think either scenario 1 or 3 are what is happening. If it's 1, then we not only get a baddie but we have a good idea of where to look for her teamies. If it's 3, best case scenario we get rid of a lynch-save and can try again another day. Worst-case scenario, however, it's a lynch switch power.....which means we need to be REALLY WARY of any stray votes (b/c most lynch switches must switch to someone who has votes already.....). This would likely result in losing a civ, which would be VERY bad at this point, I think.....
I'm not going to advocate for a unanimous Mongoose vote, because the lynch-switch/save theory is obviously just speculation on my part and my thoughts on Mongoose's baddiness are obviously just my thoughts, but I am going to be watching closely to see what goes down during this vote....and whilst Mongoose is leading the votes and until this day is over, I am going to feel unreasonably afraid for whomever Mongoose decides to vote for.

On preview, I suppose that scenario 2 could also theoretically be correct AND parts of 3 could be correct (i.e. she's a civ with a lynch save in her pocket).....this seems unlikely to me, but I'll admit that I'm biased b/c I've been holding onto this suspicion for a long time now.

Yes, all....we've already arrived at the part of the game where Canuck's head gets super duper paranoid and starts thinking crazy things. Apologies in advance. You have been warned.

linki: bea, you read my mind. :P

Of your 3 scenarios, do you know which one is most likely? 2. But this reads like a nice attempt to cover yourself if she flips civ, kinda like the Made vote. I hadn't had specific baddies vibes from you, because you have suspected Mongoose for a long time, but honestly this post to me just sounds like an excuse.

An excuse for what??

Also, I clearly state that I think possibilities 1 and 3 are most likely.

[Canucklehead]

Lots of people left to vote....only two hours left...

[Canucklehead]

Dana: I see you're reading the thread. Have anything to contribute?

[DisgruntledPorcupine]

[Boogs]

I will take a chance and give Bullz a slide. Mongoose makes sense, so let's try to get it right.

[Hedgeowl]

Urge, the computer died with my half finished post on my LC reread. Basically, the way he voted SVS, juliets, SVS, and his reasons for such made me suspect juliets as a possible recruit once he dropped all his suspicions of her. He immediately picked up his SVS suspicion again even though "many others saw her as civ." once he posted about her possibly being God, he never once again mentions it or thinks to warn others in any way. He just lets us go ahead and lynch her and then claim credit for knowing she was God. My favorite of his posts are the two below:

No change, my theory comes from the idea that he's got blind devotion to the idea he's a Civvie, and yet God insists very strongly that he is bad. Recruit makes sense.

Followed by this gem:

Protip: Dennis doesn't know any more than the rest of us.

So which is it? Does Dennis not know anymore than the rest of us, but God somehow "knows" llama was bad??

Sorry, Llama, looks like you were a Civvie after all. LORB, why didst thou direct us to kill this innocent Llama?

Interesting Boogs/Bullz back and forth. Bullzeye is reading like Vince Vaughn to me here. It's pretty good.

However, I am going to vote LC this go round. I think he could have done more if he were so convinced SVS was god than just let her be lynched and claim he knew afterwards...

I think you could have done more than pretend you didn't see the possibility, at least I said something. And by the way, I brought it up well before the lynch. Everyone pretended not to notice, and now I'm the bad guy because of it?

The best part is when he blames God for leading him wrong. Nice, like that tactic has never been used before.

I don't think I ever responded to the above comment. Apparently, I pretended not to notice LC's comment, and everyone else pretended not to notice as well. I specifically posted saying I was missing it and clearly if most of the thread was, the "one" person to get it could have done more to save her.

I think you having been leading this thread too long Long Con and that your time is up. Except probably it's Mongoose, but miracles could happen. Oh wait...we lynched GOD, never mind.


Votes Long Con

[bea]

voting goosey.

Hedgey's vote and reasons make me hmmm. I've thought LC was civ all game, but god knows he's tricked me before. So. Many. Times.
I need to let her observations sink in more though before I can see voting his way. Also, I'd like to hear him respond.

[bea]

An Homage to DP:

Deals
In
Songs.
Great men
Run
Under
Notions of
Terror when he is near.
Leaving
Everyone else
Doomed to his might!

People must
Obey the Porcupine.
Run or
Crawl, you can't escape.
Understand his
Principles.
Immortal.
Noble.
Eternal.



Happy birthday DP!

[LoRab]

Voted Mongoose.

@hedgeowl: I think LC was more asking God why she felt so strongly about Llama. Since God seems to be able to at least somewhat post from the grave, this seems legit to ask questions. I don't agree with you on your read of LC.

[Roxy]

Mongoose has been lynched she was Dennis a repressed civvie

It is now Night 8

[juliets]

RIP Mongoose. I totally give up. Everyone I think is bad turns out to be good. I need to re-evaluate the people i think are civ and the undecideds.

[DisgruntledPorcupine]

[Hedgeowl]

RIP Mongoose. I totally give up. Everyone I think is bad turns out to be good. I need to re-evaluate the people i think are civ and the undecideds.

Considering I am literally the only person who didn't vote for Mongoose, I think the baddie majority is upon us.

People I think are bad: LC, Canuck, Juliets, possibly Lorab.

People I don't know about: Bea, Bullz, Boogs, Dana, Ninjabloop

Predictions: I will die tonight.

I voted for the Lynch Switch prize, because that or the NK are maybe the only way to take back the game.

[juliets]

Hedgie, you have now twice accused me of being bad but have not presented any evidence. Could you go ahead and od that while you're here? It shouldnt be that hard.

[Hedgeowl]

Yeah Made, I didn't play Misfits but i read enough of it to know your playstyle is whack. Nevertheless, I agree with Bullz. I have also started to wonder if you are making up these wild theories to keep the eye away from others. I have believed in your civviness but I am starting to have doubts or as Bullz brings up maybe I'm just confused by you. I know I'm confused by some of those theories.

Hmm...

Ping. I don't buy the "keep the eye away from others" thing. Sounds contrived. Then add "I'm confused" and it's more suspicious to me.

That's interesting. Maybe I didn't say it right. I have started wondering if some of the things made has said have been attention getters, to pull us away from others who may be bad. Also, I don't think I've fully understood one theory made has put out there. I may understand part of it but usually there is a line or two i don't understand. I'm not saying a general "I'm confused" or even a general "I'm confused about everything made has said". But I am confused by some of it, which is what I thought I said.

So, you think Made and his baddie teammates have a plan where the rest of them escape suspicion through Made's demand for attention? Made is just a sacrificial lamb in the hopes that his team won't get suspicion because of it?

I don't really think that's credible. Ping remains on Juliets.

Didnt Canuck mention this theory first? If not her then someone else posted that Made was distracting the whole thread for possibly bad reasons...

The original idea came from somewhere else, i don't know that it was Canuck, because at first I dismissed it. Here though I'm starting to entertain it. So why is it pingy when I bring it up but not when the original person brought it up?

p.s. I see now that it was SVS who I'm not seeing as bad this game

Ok, I am going to try and take a little more time for this. I think this is an interesting post series to look at highlighting LC's earlier suspicion of juliets, which he dropped after voting her Day 2 and upon further explanation. juliets was receiving quite a bit of attention from reywas early on and was voted several times by many of us. In light of this conversation I definitely think LC was "forced" to drop his suspicion of juliets, but what I wonder is if she was then recruited. All attention left her after those early votes, but the most suspect person to me is LC here.

[Hedgeowl]

Hedgie, you have now twice accused me of being bad but have not presented any evidence. Could you go ahead and od that while you're here? It shouldnt be that hard.

I wish I had had more time than I do to devote to this game, but hasnt turned out this way. So that means sometimes stating my thoughts so they are out there, even if I dont have time to sit down for a full reread.

My impressions so far are that juliets in general plays a careful, thoughtful game. I think she is playing a particularly careful game this time in addressing all concerns or questions about her immediately. From the very beginning she was receiving votes, so this may have put her on the defensive early, but I think it may be more than that. Of 8 days, juliets received votes on 4 days, but has worked very hard to address every suspicion against her. I generally consider her to be an astute questioner, so that fact that she hasn't been NK'd yet this far in the game also surprises me.

I also think you are being slightly combative and defensive about me not giving reasons for you to address. This doesnt make me feel better about you though. People vote all the time on gut pings, feelings, vibes, etc. Sometimes no amount of explanation will change someone's mind, even if they are wrong.

I think there has been plentiful evidence that we have been lynching the wrong people since recent votes have been complete bandwagons, yet no one seems willing to really address this point. Canuck brushed it off as unlikely that Mongoose was civ, even though that was actually the most likely scenario in any lynch when no one is being defended. Lorab brushed off my theories on LC, which gave me a little ping about her as well. These are my current thoughts, but we will see what tomorrow brings.

posting this now and going to continue reading...

[Hedgeowl]

LOL those two consecutive posts where apparently I'm a leading lynch candidate out of the blue are golden. Maybe I'm forgetting something, but this is new, right? I've been a little distracted the last few days. No biggie, still don't intend to get lynched.

Can I just say I disagree with the argument that I only ever talk about the Made / llama deal BS? I've been around, I've called people out, asked to participate, responded to most discussions in this thread so far. Maybe most of my posts have been in my own defense but I've been talking craploads and definitely ventured outside that bubble. I actually really needed this day break lol.

It just sometimes feels like people don't read my posts, you know? And it gets really frustrating when people insist I'm working my ass off to save Made right now when I've made several posts questioning him and generally expressing distrust of him. Hell, if I'm not mistaken, I explicitly said I saw myself voting for him today. And because I know it's coming, I will address that this is not flip-flopping; I'm not voting for him because I'm suddenly convinced by llama's I'm gonna call it terrible "he must have BTSC" argument which I've already made too many posts against to be assed anymore. I'm especially wary of MM continuing to misrepresent my posts and just trying to make me look guilty in general. What's the deal here?

Maybe it's because your points from day 1 seemed so passionate it's hard to remember the other posts in comparison to those. I have seen you involved with discussion on many people so I don't feel like you've been just discussing made and llama the whole time.

For most of the game I've felt pretty well about SVS, but this LC discussion does shake things a little. I didn't have a problem with her attitude which is where LC's original ping came from, but I'm not big into how she's responded to the accusations. I agree with LC when he says that when you yourself ask the accuser to compare your playstyle to a previous game, you absolutely cannot be trusted. Baddies are self-aware peeps; they learn from their mistakes and they will use previous games as reference to manipulate your opinion. I'm not close to ready to vote for SVS, in general I trust her, but this does remind me to keep an eye out for her.

I think I said this before but I don't have any problems with the warning she put out about what can happen in the game when you have bad and civ mingled on the teams. I didn't see anything in her defense posts that made me wary of her but Enrique what did you see? I may have missed something subtle. I disagree that when you ask your accuser to look at your playstyle in other games to compare it to how it is this game that it is a baddie move. I've seen others do that and I've gone back and looked and found they were right - their style as a civ matched what they had done in other games. To me it's like how we compare made this game to made last game. We've considered that a legitimate comparison so why not others.

People that keep bringing up Hedgie... I think it's pretty funny that nobody ever talks about what the case on her is. It's like she's just a buzz name thrown around by people who want to act like they're all over this game. "Oh yeah, definitely looking at Hedgie's posts," "I'm gonna look back on the Hedgie case to see what's going on." But then there's absolutely no content?? What the hell are you guys thinking? What makes Hedgie stand out from the other 20 players that you're even consider her for a vote? Please enlighten me here!

I did go back and read Hedgie's posts and didn't see a thing that would make me suspicious or anything that made her stand out from other players.

Something something juliets. I don't trust her a lot, and that exchange with LC definitely pinged me some. Too tired to even think of specific points right now, just sharing how it made me feel reading it. It's reallyy late and I almost forgot to Mafia before bed, but here I am, up to speed again. I will go back on this tomorrow before the lynch. I definitely won't vote for her without having made a case before, but eh, I'm not really that deep into this. I've known juliets on IRC for a few years but I'm not sure we'd ever played together before? It's a lot harder to suspect someone when you're not all that familiar with their style. For the most part I've backed off the llama thing because people insist it's civvie llama talking, it's just my gut disagrees. w/e we'll see

Enrique I understand you're just too sleepy to continue but when you get on today I hope you'll talk a little more about what pinged you from mine and LC's interaction. And yes I agree just because we know each other on irc doesn't mean we understand each others play styles. I had trouble interpreting you when you were so passionate about made but as time has moved along I've become much less concerned.

I do not know who I will vote today. Boogs is causing me a little concern because he is usually active as a civ and here he seems to be finding reasons to not come here. I wish I had Epi's quote from one of the last games regarding how much responsibility he has but still manages to come in and post thoughts. There are other people who haven't really come in at all but it's Boog's tone when he does come in that bothers me. Why not give some thoughts while here? That said, I doubt I'll vote for Boogs today. I am considering made for a vote however. Or, it feels like a number of people are talking about me so I may have to vote to save myself (maybe it hasnt been that many and I'm just feeling it has been).

I cant remember when we thought Enrique may have been recruited, but I remember from Fight club, that recruiting or killing people who started to suspect some of us were really the only options. Enrique's suspicion of juliets I find interesting for sure here considering he never wound up voting for her and flipped recruited baddie.

Here is my list - there has been some movement since the last list I made. Listed from most suspicious to least. Some of these are just gut vibes at this point and the numbers may not be exact. It's better to look at this as a bottom group, a middle group, and a top group. Some toward the top there has just been nothing so far on them but they are newish to the game:
1. made - civ
2. boogs
3. reywas - civ
4. bwt - civ
5. Mongoose - civ
6. MM - civ
7. blooper - only because she is so blendy
8. bullz
9. bea
10.SVS - the seemer issue is causing me some concern that wasn't there before. - civ
11. LC - when i looked at him again I remembered I didn't agree at all with his suspicion about SVS warning everyone before the challenge not to get sucked in by baddies; I do share his concern about the seemer theory;
12. Keterman - civ
13. fingersplints - civ
14. Lorab
15. Hedgeowl - civ
16. canuck
17. llama - civ
18. Dana

I think this list is interesting now is that of the top 4 of juliets suspects, 3 of them were people who suspected her. 2 of those 3 were NK'd. Of the 8 different people who have voted for juliets, only Long Con and Bullzeye are still alive. As you can see by this list, our numbers are getting low, especially if there are 2 baddie teams or a recruitment team. I dont think we have much time left to make any more mistakes. juliets is someone I think needs a closer look by all for sure. LC is another. I urge everyone to do their own rereads however quick.

[nijuukyugou]

RIP Mongoose Damned silencing and vote prevention.

I...don't even know who to trust now. The baddies sure are getting a hell of a lot of easy bandwagon lynches. Hedge is making the most sense to me right now because, well...she seems to be noticing and commenting on the same things I am. And she voted LC, which I probably would have done again. I like consistency and my feelings haven't changed about that at least.

Oh, and happy birthday, DP! I'll try to get a tribute to you if we literally have until the end of the day. If not, I'm voting "block" just in case a baddie wins because that seems like the most innocuous prize from the list (unless I'm horribly, horribly wrong, in which case please correct me).

[juliets]

Hedgie, you have now twice accused me of being bad but have not presented any evidence. Could you go ahead and od that while you're here? It shouldnt be that hard.

I wish I had had more time than I do to devote to this game, but hasnt turned out this way. So that means sometimes stating my thoughts so they are out there, even if I dont have time to sit down for a full reread.

My impressions so far are that juliets in general plays a careful, thoughtful game. I think she is playing a particularly careful game this time in addressing all concerns or questions about her immediately. From the very beginning she was receiving votes, so this may have put her on the defensive early, but I think it may be more than that. Of 8 days, juliets received votes on 4 days, but has worked very hard to address every suspicion against her. I generally consider her to be an astute questioner, so that fact that she hasn't been NK'd yet this far in the game also surprises me.

My playstyle is exactly how you describe it. I have always addressed all suspicions of me when they happen. That is how I was taught to play - if you don't address things people think you are avoiding addressing the issues. I also question things as a way of processing information. Not being NK'd is not surprising to me at all. Why would they kill me? Chances are since I keep taking on suspicion I will be lynched. You don't waste night kills if you are a baddie on people who are going to be killed by lynching.

I also think you are being slightly combative and defensive about me not giving reasons for you to address. This doesnt make me feel better about you though. People vote all the time on gut pings, feelings, vibes, etc. Sometimes no amount of explanation will change someone's mind, even if they are wrong.

I am an old style mafia player which means I expect people who accuse others to present reasons and not just fling a name out there. If the reason is a ping, say its a ping but say what the ping was based on. If it's gut vibes, provide an example of a time when your gut clenched. If there is real evidence provide it. It isn't fair to just throw someone's name around without specifics. Once a name gets out there people start talking about that person and soon they are convincing themselves that person is baddie when they really haven't done anything. I have seen it happen time and time again - in fact, see some of the lynches of civs in this game - MM for instance. What exactly was suspicious about him again? No one could really articulate, people just thought he was bad. And why? So I don't let people get away with that if i can help it. Note that I also asked you to explain what you found suspicious about LC. I can't think about voting someone unless there is some reasonable explanation as to why someone thinks they are bad. I'm sorry if that comes across as defensive but in my mafia world explanations were expected and provided. And I know you can't necessarily change people's minds but give people a chance to respond so others can see what they have to say.

I think there has been plentiful evidence that we have been lynching the wrong people since recent votes have been complete bandwagons, yet no one seems willing to really address this point. Canuck brushed it off as unlikely that Mongoose was civ, even though that was actually the most likely scenario in any lynch when no one is being defended. Lorab brushed off my theories on LC, which gave me a little ping about her as well. These are my current thoughts, but we will see what tomorrow brings.

I agree there is plentiful evidence that we have been lynching the wrong people. Some have looked at the bandwagon lynches, like for example Bullz analyzed the MM lynch and how that happened. I'm willing to look at other bandwagons and see what we can take away. I haven't actually noticed anyone pooh poohing that idea but maybe i missed those brush offs.

So Hedgie the bottom line is I take accusations against me very seriously because I'm civ, and I will always ask about them. I am defending myself based on the specifics so that may be a reason I sound defensive - I'm defending. It does not make me a baddie.

many linki

[juliets]

LOL those two consecutive posts where apparently I'm a leading lynch candidate out of the blue are golden. Maybe I'm forgetting something, but this is new, right? I've been a little distracted the last few days. No biggie, still don't intend to get lynched.

Can I just say I disagree with the argument that I only ever talk about the Made / llama deal BS? I've been around, I've called people out, asked to participate, responded to most discussions in this thread so far. Maybe most of my posts have been in my own defense but I've been talking craploads and definitely ventured outside that bubble. I actually really needed this day break lol.

It just sometimes feels like people don't read my posts, you know? And it gets really frustrating when people insist I'm working my ass off to save Made right now when I've made several posts questioning him and generally expressing distrust of him. Hell, if I'm not mistaken, I explicitly said I saw myself voting for him today. And because I know it's coming, I will address that this is not flip-flopping; I'm not voting for him because I'm suddenly convinced by llama's I'm gonna call it terrible "he must have BTSC" argument which I've already made too many posts against to be assed anymore. I'm especially wary of MM continuing to misrepresent my posts and just trying to make me look guilty in general. What's the deal here?

Maybe it's because your points from day 1 seemed so passionate it's hard to remember the other posts in comparison to those. I have seen you involved with discussion on many people so I don't feel like you've been just discussing made and llama the whole time.

For most of the game I've felt pretty well about SVS, but this LC discussion does shake things a little. I didn't have a problem with her attitude which is where LC's original ping came from, but I'm not big into how she's responded to the accusations. I agree with LC when he says that when you yourself ask the accuser to compare your playstyle to a previous game, you absolutely cannot be trusted. Baddies are self-aware peeps; they learn from their mistakes and they will use previous games as reference to manipulate your opinion. I'm not close to ready to vote for SVS, in general I trust her, but this does remind me to keep an eye out for her.

I think I said this before but I don't have any problems with the warning she put out about what can happen in the game when you have bad and civ mingled on the teams. I didn't see anything in her defense posts that made me wary of her but Enrique what did you see? I may have missed something subtle. I disagree that when you ask your accuser to look at your playstyle in other games to compare it to how it is this game that it is a baddie move. I've seen others do that and I've gone back and looked and found they were right - their style as a civ matched what they had done in other games. To me it's like how we compare made this game to made last game. We've considered that a legitimate comparison so why not others.

People that keep bringing up Hedgie... I think it's pretty funny that nobody ever talks about what the case on her is. It's like she's just a buzz name thrown around by people who want to act like they're all over this game. "Oh yeah, definitely looking at Hedgie's posts," "I'm gonna look back on the Hedgie case to see what's going on." But then there's absolutely no content?? What the hell are you guys thinking? What makes Hedgie stand out from the other 20 players that you're even consider her for a vote? Please enlighten me here!

I did go back and read Hedgie's posts and didn't see a thing that would make me suspicious or anything that made her stand out from other players.

Something something juliets. I don't trust her a lot, and that exchange with LC definitely pinged me some. Too tired to even think of specific points right now, just sharing how it made me feel reading it. It's reallyy late and I almost forgot to Mafia before bed, but here I am, up to speed again. I will go back on this tomorrow before the lynch. I definitely won't vote for her without having made a case before, but eh, I'm not really that deep into this. I've known juliets on IRC for a few years but I'm not sure we'd ever played together before? It's a lot harder to suspect someone when you're not all that familiar with their style. For the most part I've backed off the llama thing because people insist it's civvie llama talking, it's just my gut disagrees. w/e we'll see

Enrique I understand you're just too sleepy to continue but when you get on today I hope you'll talk a little more about what pinged you from mine and LC's interaction. And yes I agree just because we know each other on irc doesn't mean we understand each others play styles. I had trouble interpreting you when you were so passionate about made but as time has moved along I've become much less concerned.

I do not know who I will vote today. Boogs is causing me a little concern because he is usually active as a civ and here he seems to be finding reasons to not come here. I wish I had Epi's quote from one of the last games regarding how much responsibility he has but still manages to come in and post thoughts. There are other people who haven't really come in at all but it's Boog's tone when he does come in that bothers me. Why not give some thoughts while here? That said, I doubt I'll vote for Boogs today. I am considering made for a vote however. Or, it feels like a number of people are talking about me so I may have to vote to save myself (maybe it hasnt been that many and I'm just feeling it has been).

I cant remember when we thought Enrique may have been recruited, but I remember from Fight club, that recruiting or killing people who started to suspect some of us were really the only options. Enrique's suspicion of juliets I find interesting for sure here considering he never wound up voting for her and flipped recruited baddie.

Here is my list - there has been some movement since the last list I made. Listed from most suspicious to least. Some of these are just gut vibes at this point and the numbers may not be exact. It's better to look at this as a bottom group, a middle group, and a top group. Some toward the top there has just been nothing so far on them but they are newish to the game:
1. made - civ
2. boogs
3. reywas - civ
4. bwt - civ
5. Mongoose - civ
6. MM - civ
7. blooper - only because she is so blendy
8. bullz
9. bea
10.SVS - the seemer issue is causing me some concern that wasn't there before. - civ
11. LC - when i looked at him again I remembered I didn't agree at all with his suspicion about SVS warning everyone before the challenge not to get sucked in by baddies; I do share his concern about the seemer theory;
12. Keterman - civ
13. fingersplints - civ
14. Lorab
15. Hedgeowl - civ
16. canuck
17. llama - civ
18. Dana

I think this list is interesting now is that of the top 4 of juliets suspects, 3 of them were people who suspected her. 2 of those 3 were NK'd. Of the 8 different people who have voted for juliets, only Long Con and Bullzeye are still alive. As you can see by this list, our numbers are getting low, especially if there are 2 baddie teams or a recruitment team. I dont think we have much time left to make any more mistakes. juliets is someone I think needs a closer look by all for sure. LC is another. I urge everyone to do their own rereads however quick.

I agree - I do deserve a closer look.

[LoRab]

@Hedge: I was not blowing off your case on LC. I just don't think he's bad and the points you make about him are consistent with how he plays as a baddie. And I've played enough games with him, and hosted him more than once, and been hosted by him more than once, to be able to say what his patterns are, even when he changes things up. He happens to be a player I can generally read well. Could he be snowing me? Sure. But I don't think he is. So it's not that I'm blowing off your reasons for suspecting him. It's more that those reasons don't resonate with me.

If there is other reason I'm pinging you, please let me know so I can explain myself. I have nothing to hide.

[Boogs]

I do agree JC has been acting weird to me so i am glad someone presented a case.

[juliets]

LOL those two consecutive posts where apparently I'm a leading lynch candidate out of the blue are golden. Maybe I'm forgetting something, but this is new, right? I've been a little distracted the last few days. No biggie, still don't intend to get lynched.

Can I just say I disagree with the argument that I only ever talk about the Made / llama deal BS? I've been around, I've called people out, asked to participate, responded to most discussions in this thread so far. Maybe most of my posts have been in my own defense but I've been talking craploads and definitely ventured outside that bubble. I actually really needed this day break lol.

It just sometimes feels like people don't read my posts, you know? And it gets really frustrating when people insist I'm working my ass off to save Made right now when I've made several posts questioning him and generally expressing distrust of him. Hell, if I'm not mistaken, I explicitly said I saw myself voting for him today. And because I know it's coming, I will address that this is not flip-flopping; I'm not voting for him because I'm suddenly convinced by llama's I'm gonna call it terrible "he must have BTSC" argument which I've already made too many posts against to be assed anymore. I'm especially wary of MM continuing to misrepresent my posts and just trying to make me look guilty in general. What's the deal here?

Maybe it's because your points from day 1 seemed so passionate it's hard to remember the other posts in comparison to those. I have seen you involved with discussion on many people so I don't feel like you've been just discussing made and llama the whole time.

For most of the game I've felt pretty well about SVS, but this LC discussion does shake things a little. I didn't have a problem with her attitude which is where LC's original ping came from, but I'm not big into how she's responded to the accusations. I agree with LC when he says that when you yourself ask the accuser to compare your playstyle to a previous game, you absolutely cannot be trusted. Baddies are self-aware peeps; they learn from their mistakes and they will use previous games as reference to manipulate your opinion. I'm not close to ready to vote for SVS, in general I trust her, but this does remind me to keep an eye out for her.

I think I said this before but I don't have any problems with the warning she put out about what can happen in the game when you have bad and civ mingled on the teams. I didn't see anything in her defense posts that made me wary of her but Enrique what did you see? I may have missed something subtle. I disagree that when you ask your accuser to look at your playstyle in other games to compare it to how it is this game that it is a baddie move. I've seen others do that and I've gone back and looked and found they were right - their style as a civ matched what they had done in other games. To me it's like how we compare made this game to made last game. We've considered that a legitimate comparison so why not others.

People that keep bringing up Hedgie... I think it's pretty funny that nobody ever talks about what the case on her is. It's like she's just a buzz name thrown around by people who want to act like they're all over this game. "Oh yeah, definitely looking at Hedgie's posts," "I'm gonna look back on the Hedgie case to see what's going on." But then there's absolutely no content?? What the hell are you guys thinking? What makes Hedgie stand out from the other 20 players that you're even consider her for a vote? Please enlighten me here!

I did go back and read Hedgie's posts and didn't see a thing that would make me suspicious or anything that made her stand out from other players.

Something something juliets. I don't trust her a lot, and that exchange with LC definitely pinged me some. Too tired to even think of specific points right now, just sharing how it made me feel reading it. It's reallyy late and I almost forgot to Mafia before bed, but here I am, up to speed again. I will go back on this tomorrow before the lynch. I definitely won't vote for her without having made a case before, but eh, I'm not really that deep into this. I've known juliets on IRC for a few years but I'm not sure we'd ever played together before? It's a lot harder to suspect someone when you're not all that familiar with their style. For the most part I've backed off the llama thing because people insist it's civvie llama talking, it's just my gut disagrees. w/e we'll see

Enrique I understand you're just too sleepy to continue but when you get on today I hope you'll talk a little more about what pinged you from mine and LC's interaction. And yes I agree just because we know each other on irc doesn't mean we understand each others play styles. I had trouble interpreting you when you were so passionate about made but as time has moved along I've become much less concerned.

I do not know who I will vote today. Boogs is causing me a little concern because he is usually active as a civ and here he seems to be finding reasons to not come here. I wish I had Epi's quote from one of the last games regarding how much responsibility he has but still manages to come in and post thoughts. There are other people who haven't really come in at all but it's Boog's tone when he does come in that bothers me. Why not give some thoughts while here? That said, I doubt I'll vote for Boogs today. I am considering made for a vote however. Or, it feels like a number of people are talking about me so I may have to vote to save myself (maybe it hasnt been that many and I'm just feeling it has been).

I cant remember when we thought Enrique may have been recruited, but I remember from Fight club, that recruiting or killing people who started to suspect some of us were really the only options. Enrique's suspicion of juliets I find interesting for sure here considering he never wound up voting for her and flipped recruited baddie.

Here is my list - there has been some movement since the last list I made. Listed from most suspicious to least. Some of these are just gut vibes at this point and the numbers may not be exact. It's better to look at this as a bottom group, a middle group, and a top group. Some toward the top there has just been nothing so far on them but they are newish to the game:
1. made - civ
2. boogs
3. reywas - civ
4. bwt - civ
5. Mongoose - civ
6. MM - civ
7. blooper - only because she is so blendy
8. bullz
9. bea
10.SVS - the seemer issue is causing me some concern that wasn't there before. - civ
11. LC - when i looked at him again I remembered I didn't agree at all with his suspicion about SVS warning everyone before the challenge not to get sucked in by baddies; I do share his concern about the seemer theory;
12. Keterman - civ
13. fingersplints - civ
14. Lorab
15. Hedgeowl - civ
16. canuck
17. llama - civ
18. Dana

I think this list is interesting now is that of the top 4 of juliets suspects, 3 of them were people who suspected her. 2 of those 3 were NK'd. Of the 8 different people who have voted for juliets, only Long Con and Bullzeye are still alive. As you can see by this list, our numbers are getting low, especially if there are 2 baddie teams or a recruitment team. I dont think we have much time left to make any more mistakes. juliets is someone I think needs a closer look by all for sure. LC is another. I urge everyone to do their own rereads however quick.

There have been a lot of people that have mentioned me in this game but not all of them have voted me.

With Enrique, I have no idea why he never voted for me but it's not because I was part of the group that recruited him. I cannot recruit, I am a civ.

Also, on your list. Why did you highlight civs who were at the top and the middle of my list? It makes the list have a lot of red on it when really I think you are only trying to highlight the people I had listed at the very top of the list like the top 4. Having a lot of red on the list gets the attention of people who just scan and makes them think there is something worse there than there really is.

Have you looked at anyone else's list to see how many of their top threats were civ? I bet you would find a good number of people in the same situation as me - suspecting people they thought were bad but turned out civ - because a lot of people have voted for the same civs I have. When you're a civ you don't know who is good and bad so you vote for who you think is bad. We are wrong a lot of the time. Also, of those in the top 6 I only voted for made and Mongoose. In particular, I did not vote for MM. And I had nothing to do with any of the people who were nk'd. You probably remember someone brought up whether the nk of Keterman was an attempt to frame me. The baddies see me as an easy mark to lynch so as I said before, they dont have to waste a nk on me.

As I said right after the lynch, I'm re-evaluating the people I didn't think were bad because maybe my list is topsy turvy. I've obviously not been looking at the right things.

I'll be voting at some point today but I need to think through what ability am I the most comfortable with a baddie having because we don't know whether a civ or baddie will win the contest.

[Canucklehead]

Fuck. I (obviously) feel pretty responsible for Mongoose's death. I'm sorry Mongoose, I really really thought you were bad.

Hedge: why do you suspect me now? I'm a civ. Tell me what makes you think otherwise and I'll try to clear up whatever misunderstandings may be going on for you.

[Canucklehead]

I think there has been plentiful evidence that we have been lynching the wrong people since recent votes have been complete bandwagons, yet no one seems willing to really address this point. Canuck brushed it off as unlikely that Mongoose was civ, even though that was actually the most likely scenario in any lynch when no one is being defended. Lorab brushed off my theories on LC, which gave me a little ping about her as well. These are my current thoughts, but we will see what tomorrow brings.

posting this now and going to continue reading...

I didn't "brush it off" as unlikely that Mongoose was a civ. I thought about it, weighed the evidence, posted about it, and made a choice. If I had been "brushing it off", I wouldn't have thought it through or put it out there for other people to consider....I would have just voted and gone about my business (like MANY other people did).
I can understand getting on my case about spearheading the Mongoose lynch.....but accusing me of being flippant about it, or not thinking through all the possibilities, or "brushing off" the chance that she was a civ is really disingenuous. Hindsight is 20/20, obviously, but in the moment the evidence (of Mongoose's in-thread weirdness, the apparent save of her during the MM lynch, and her disinclination to actualy give a shit and provide a defense) made it actually seem much more likely to me that she was bad and being sacrificed or had a lynch protection than that she was civ and just playing a detatched game. Obviously I was wrong, but to suggest that I "brushed off" the possibility of her being civ is pretty shady, since I was the only one actively discussing it. I think I'm a pretty easy target today, since I pushed hard for a Mongoose lynch for a LONG time....but focusing on me is not going to get a baddie lynched, so I suggest we look at the people who ACTUALLY brushed off the possibility of Mongoose being civ and hopped on the bandwagon nonchalantly.

I'm absolutely willing to listen to your cases on LC and juliets, hedge.....and I'm interested in your idea of their being one big recruitment baddie team. I've been considering the fact that there might only be one group of btsc baddies (plus all the indys we've seen die) for a while now, and am them having recruiting powers absolutely makes sense to me.

[bea]

I agree with hedgie that the switch will hopefully help us from lynching yet another civ. Seems to me like the best tool to put in our toolbox right now. I know I'm a civ and I have pretty good feelings about canuck. I know she was wrong about goosey, but I think she was coming from a civ point of view.

I need to mull over the cases on LC and JC. I've gone back and forth on JC all game. LC's felt civ to me all game, but now's about the time I start getting paranoid that he's pulling the wool over my eyes yet again.

[juliets]

I agree with hedgie that the switch will hopefully help us from lynching yet another civ. Seems to me like the best tool to put in our toolbox right now. I know I'm a civ and I have pretty good feelings about canuck. I know she was wrong about goosey, but I think she was coming from a civ point of view.

I need to mull over the cases on LC and JC. I've gone back and forth on JC all game. LC's felt civ to me all game, but now's about the time I start getting paranoid that he's pulling the wool over my eyes yet again.

But how do we know a civ will win the contest?