[TOWN WIN] Lost in Space Mafia

[Seanzie]

AS IF I'D KILL AXE THATS THE ONLY KILL THAT POINTS DIRECTLY AT ME JESUS CHRIST ARE YOU PEOPLE DUMB OR WHAT

This is so fake. "you people" who?

[MacDougall]

Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

No, I am not trying to gaslight you into thinking Fext flipped red. That is absurd.

I am telling you that regardless of Fext's alignment their posts did not logically make sense. I pretty extensively deconstructed why their posts did not logically make sense in my ISO. I believe this to be something done by mafia a lot more than town (except for specific players who are crazy townies like Gavial). Therefore I voted Fext. Whether or not Fext is new doesn't change any of this. I don't see why it is insensitive for me to say that a post is bad when it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not calling Fext garbage, I'm just saying his posting this game has been bad and I voted him out for it.

And you really, truly and honestly think Mac is town based on his D1?

Alison is just way better at mafia than you i guess... sucks to cuck

[NotAnAxehole]

But I also know that 2 of mac, Alison and creature are mafia.

[MacDougall]

AS IF I'D KILL AXE THATS THE ONLY KILL THAT POINTS DIRECTLY AT ME JESUS CHRIST ARE YOU PEOPLE DUMB OR WHAT

This is so fake. "you people" who?

okay confirmation Seanzie is drunk

[Alison]

Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

I often don't. I ignore him and let other players or the thread state sort him out for me because he is impossible to engage with.

When I do have to try to read Gavial I usually examine the purity of his tone, the consistency of his pushes (he is a lot likely to get stuck as town but will swing crazily to suit an agenda as mafia) and NKA because he is very bad about making kills that screw him over.

[MacDougall]

But I also know that 2 of mac, Alison and creature are mafia.

counterpoint, only one is... and it's creature

[Seanzie]

have you considered that your mutual dislike of one another is clouding your collective judgement here?

Plz say exactly who this is targeted at.

[MacDougall]

@Alison if ur pocketing me and i throw to you here im gonna look like an egg so if you are mafia can u please switch to pushing me so i can omgus you and look gud kthx

[Alison]

you guys seem to have a lot of conviction but also i'm way better at reading alison than you guys are and she's town so like... try something else and we can talk.

@Alison do you think Mac has a good read on you in general?

He is no better than average at reading me D1. His read on me gets better throughout the game. I remember only one game where he had an incorrect read on me in endgame and that was because of really weird mech stuff that gave false results on me.

[Seanzie]

Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

I often don't. I ignore him and let other players or the thread state sort him out for me because he is impossible to engage with.

When I do have to try to read Gavial I usually examine the purity of his tone, the consistency of his pushes (he is a lot likely to get stuck as town but will swing crazily to suit an agenda as mafia) and NKA because he is very bad about making kills that screw him over.

How many games deep did it take you to treat gavial like this?

[MacDougall]

have you considered that your mutual dislike of one another is clouding your collective judgement here?

Plz say exactly who this is targeted at.

Axe and Alison

[NotAnAxehole]

have you considered that your mutual dislike of one another is clouding your collective judgement here?

Plz say exactly who this is targeted at.

It's about me and Alison, things have been weird ever since I carried batman the animated series mafia.

[MacDougall]

i think u guys could be great friends if you got high together tbh

[MacDougall]

I have an idea...

given it's only us four playing this game why don't we vote out the wolf creature and then tomorrow we will figure out who his partner is...

[Alison]

@Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Turbo this if I flip.

Full legacy plz.

Still think you're town, still think Falcon and Wilgy are town. Mac is likely town for reasons I've just gone over, though he should be policied in FX.

I suspect NAA. I suspect Creature.

If I am wrong on a townclear it is probably Mac or Wilgy.

[Seanzie]

I really can't get over how much more activated Mac is now that Alison is here.

[Alison]

Alison has legit been the towniest player in this game every time she's been in the thread you guys are like openwolfing or throwing i swear lol.

Why isn't Alison throwing for exclusively scum reading, exclusively discrediting & exclusively voting townies?

Oh right, that must be her wincon.

You did that through the entirety of basic mafia, was that your wincon there too?

Are you saying that you consider us to be equals?

No I'm saying your logic doesn't make sense and wouldn't be something you'd think from a legitimate POV if you were town.

[Seanzie]

@Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Turbo this if I flip.

Full legacy plz.

Still think you're town, still think Falcon and Wilgy are town. Mac is likely town for reasons I've just gone over, though he should be policied in FX.

I suspect NAA. I suspect Creature.

If I am wrong on a townclear it is probably Mac or Wilgy.

Let's say we chop one of NAA or creature today, and if we miss we chop Mac... which of NAA or Creature do we chop?

[NotAnAxehole]

Alison has legit been the towniest player in this game every time she's been in the thread you guys are like openwolfing or throwing i swear lol.

Why isn't Alison throwing for exclusively scum reading, exclusively discrediting & exclusively voting townies?

Oh right, that must be her wincon.

You did that through the entirety of basic mafia, was that your wincon there too?

Are you saying that you consider us to be equals?

No I'm saying your logic doesn't make sense and wouldn't be something you'd think from a legitimate POV if you were town.

How would you know what I think? You've never taken 2 seconds to even try to understand me as a player... Albeit, most of that is because of antics I've pulled, but you assume a lot.

[MacDougall]

I really can't get over how much more activated Mac is now that Alison is here.

I literally told you that was going to happen... i had very little interest in playing whiffle ball bat with you and NAA. Alison just made the game fun again.

[Seanzie]

Actually... Honestly...

I want to start a conversation over from ground zero...

@Alison

Mac's Fext push is sus af. Plz talk me through your thoughts on my case on Mac. I think at some point I asked you to quote it and talk about it. Plz go back to it now.

[NotAnAxehole]

Yeah, the guy holding the correct PoE is no fun to talk to.

[MacDougall]

Alison has legit been the towniest player in this game every time she's been in the thread you guys are like openwolfing or throwing i swear lol.

Why isn't Alison throwing for exclusively scum reading, exclusively discrediting & exclusively voting townies?

Oh right, that must be her wincon.

You did that through the entirety of basic mafia, was that your wincon there too?

Are you saying that you consider us to be equals?

No I'm saying your logic doesn't make sense and wouldn't be something you'd think from a legitimate POV if you were town.

How would you know what I think? You've never taken 2 seconds to even try to understand me as a player... Albeit, most of that is because of antics I've pulled, but you assume a lot.

You once claimed that mafia is nothing but RNG and proceeded to willfully refuse to townside in any meaningful way. Alison is a player who has a system and process that has data evidence to suggest that it works (Alison has the highest winrate on this entire site). I think that's the major problem tbh.

[MacDougall]

Yeah, the guy holding the correct PoE is no fun to talk to.

the guy who has me in his poe that i think is town is no fun to talk to

[Seanzie]

I really can't get over how much more activated Mac is now that Alison is here.

I literally told you that was going to happen... i had very little interest in playing whiffle ball bat with you and NAA. Alison just made the game fun again.

And so all important players for the entire game are contained in us four? got it.

[NotAnAxehole]

Alison has legit been the towniest player in this game every time she's been in the thread you guys are like openwolfing or throwing i swear lol.

Why isn't Alison throwing for exclusively scum reading, exclusively discrediting & exclusively voting townies?

Oh right, that must be her wincon.

You did that through the entirety of basic mafia, was that your wincon there too?

Are you saying that you consider us to be equals?

No I'm saying your logic doesn't make sense and wouldn't be something you'd think from a legitimate POV if you were town.

How would you know what I think? You've never taken 2 seconds to even try to understand me as a player... Albeit, most of that is because of antics I've pulled, but you assume a lot.

You once claimed that mafia is nothing but RNG and proceeded to willfully refuse to townside in any meaningful way. Alison is a player who has a system and process that has data evidence to suggest that it works (Alison has the highest winrate on this entire site). I think that's the major problem tbh.

Riiiight, thank you for making the point of why Alison SO INCREDIBLY WRONG is alignment indicative.

[MacDougall]

I really can't get over how much more activated Mac is now that Alison is here.

I literally told you that was going to happen... i had very little interest in playing whiffle ball bat with you and NAA. Alison just made the game fun again.

And so all important players for the entire game are contained in us four? got it.

Nobody else was here dude.

I am now closing this tab before I get annoyed and start being toxic goodbye.

[Alison]

Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

No, I am not trying to gaslight you into thinking Fext flipped red. That is absurd.

I am telling you that regardless of Fext's alignment their posts did not logically make sense. I pretty extensively deconstructed why their posts did not logically make sense in my ISO. I believe this to be something done by mafia a lot more than town (except for specific players who are crazy townies like Gavial). Therefore I voted Fext. Whether or not Fext is new doesn't change any of this. I don't see why it is insensitive for me to say that a post is bad when it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not calling Fext garbage, I'm just saying his posting this game has been bad and I voted him out for it.

And you really, truly and honestly think Mac is town based on his D1?

Yes. Mac is a strategic scum player who plays with agenda. He is not likely to straddle the fence and take the worst of both worlds if he is mafia. Here is his last scum game, which he played with me: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ed-Hype%21

Day 1, suspicion falls on two of his mafia buddies: Mich-El, who has been afk and is well known to afk as scum, and Katze, who has made a PR claim and been counterclaimed. Mac hard defends both of them, and aggressively tries to counterwagon Great Partners, who is town. Mich-El goes over and flips mafia instead.

Day 2, Mac hard busses Katze, to the point that it had me townreading him in dead chat despite his D1 attempt at saving her. Katze goes over, and Mac coasts on the cred from killing Katze to win the game.

The point is that scum Mac plays in extremes because he wants to either crush the town or gain an immense amount of towncred. The other game I linked to you, Guns and Venom, he also adopted similarly extreme stances, where he hard defended some people and hard pushed others. I cannot remember Mac making a limp wristed push or back-and-forth stance as scum. I believe that if he was scum here would hard commit to either townreading and shielding, or scumreading and burying Fext, the former to gain as much cred as he can and coast through the game, and the latter to just get a town killed in a game where town have very few misexes.

[Alison]

But I also know that 2 of mac, Alison and creature are mafia.

You have gone back and forth between "there's 2 in Mac/Alison/Creature" and "Mac and Alison are the exact team".

Why are you leaving out Creature in some scenarios and including him in others?

[MacDougall]

Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

No, I am not trying to gaslight you into thinking Fext flipped red. That is absurd.

I am telling you that regardless of Fext's alignment their posts did not logically make sense. I pretty extensively deconstructed why their posts did not logically make sense in my ISO. I believe this to be something done by mafia a lot more than town (except for specific players who are crazy townies like Gavial). Therefore I voted Fext. Whether or not Fext is new doesn't change any of this. I don't see why it is insensitive for me to say that a post is bad when it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not calling Fext garbage, I'm just saying his posting this game has been bad and I voted him out for it.

And you really, truly and honestly think Mac is town based on his D1?

Yes. Mac is a strategic scum player who plays with agenda. He is not likely to straddle the fence and take the worst of both worlds if he is mafia. Here is his last scum game, which he played with me: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ed-Hype%21

Day 1, suspicion falls on two of his mafia buddies: Mich-El, who has been afk and is well known to afk as scum, and Katze, who has made a PR claim and been counterclaimed. Mac hard defends both of them, and aggressively tries to counterwagon Great Partners, who is town. Mich-El goes over and flips mafia instead.

Day 2, Mac hard busses Katze, to the point that it had me townreading him in dead chat despite his D1 attempt at saving her. Katze goes over, and Mac coasts on the cred from killing Katze to win the game.

The point is that scum Mac plays in extremes because he wants to either crush the town or gain an immense amount of towncred. The other game I linked to you, Guns and Venom, he also adopted similarly extreme stances, where he hard defended some people and hard pushed others. I cannot remember Mac making a limp wristed push or back-and-forth stance as scum. I believe that if he was scum here would hard commit to either townreading and shielding, or scumreading and burying Fext, the former to gain as much cred as he can and coast through the game, and the latter to just get a town killed in a game where town have very few misexes.

[NotAnAxehole]

Alison has legit been the towniest player in this game every time she's been in the thread you guys are like openwolfing or throwing i swear lol.

Why isn't Alison throwing for exclusively scum reading, exclusively discrediting & exclusively voting townies?

Oh right, that must be her wincon.

You did that through the entirety of basic mafia, was that your wincon there too?

Are you saying that you consider us to be equals?

No I'm saying your logic doesn't make sense and wouldn't be something you'd think from a legitimate POV if you were town.

How would you know what I think? You've never taken 2 seconds to even try to understand me as a player... Albeit, most of that is because of antics I've pulled, but you assume a lot.

You once claimed that mafia is nothing but RNG and proceeded to willfully refuse to townside in any meaningful way. Alison is a player who has a system and process that has data evidence to suggest that it works (Alison has the highest winrate on this entire site). I think that's the major problem tbh.

This requires context, mafia is RNG because you can generally predict to a reasonable degree of certainty who will die before the day starts / you can reasonably predict who will win based on who randed mafia.

Batman the animated series was a stunt to prove that nothing I did mattered because mafia had already won.

I mean, I feel like I've demonstrated this point to a reasonable degree of certainty, so I don't know why you're talking shit.

[Alison]

Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

I often don't. I ignore him and let other players or the thread state sort him out for me because he is impossible to engage with.

When I do have to try to read Gavial I usually examine the purity of his tone, the consistency of his pushes (he is a lot likely to get stuck as town but will swing crazily to suit an agenda as mafia) and NKA because he is very bad about making kills that screw him over.

How many games deep did it take you to treat gavial like this?

Like 3 or 4? In my first couple of games with him I just voted him out because he was obviously an insane person making insane reads/posts and being really annoying about it. You saw how he was like in Fallout, and I think that was my first game with him. I was 3P who didn't care about the exe and I wanted to kill him anyway lol.

[NotAnAxehole]

But I also know that 2 of mac, Alison and creature are mafia.

You have gone back and forth between "there's 2 in Mac/Alison/Creature" and "Mac and Alison are the exact team".

Why are you leaving out Creature in some scenarios and including him in others?

It's simple, my legacy has to be 2 players, my PoE has to be 3.

[MacDougall]

Why isn't Alison throwing for exclusively scum reading, exclusively discrediting & exclusively voting townies?

Oh right, that must be her wincon.

You did that through the entirety of basic mafia, was that your wincon there too?

Are you saying that you consider us to be equals?

No I'm saying your logic doesn't make sense and wouldn't be something you'd think from a legitimate POV if you were town.

How would you know what I think? You've never taken 2 seconds to even try to understand me as a player... Albeit, most of that is because of antics I've pulled, but you assume a lot.

You once claimed that mafia is nothing but RNG and proceeded to willfully refuse to townside in any meaningful way. Alison is a player who has a system and process that has data evidence to suggest that it works (Alison has the highest winrate on this entire site). I think that's the major problem tbh.

This requires context, mafia is RNG because you can generally predict to a reasonable degree of certainty who will die before the day starts / you can reasonably predict who will win based on who randed mafia.

Batman the animated series was a stunt to prove that nothing I did mattered because mafia had already won.

I mean, I feel like I've demonstrated this point to a reasonable degree of certainty, so I don't know why you're talking shit.

Where did I talk shit?

[NotAnAxehole]

You did that through the entirety of basic mafia, was that your wincon there too?

Are you saying that you consider us to be equals?

No I'm saying your logic doesn't make sense and wouldn't be something you'd think from a legitimate POV if you were town.

How would you know what I think? You've never taken 2 seconds to even try to understand me as a player... Albeit, most of that is because of antics I've pulled, but you assume a lot.

You once claimed that mafia is nothing but RNG and proceeded to willfully refuse to townside in any meaningful way. Alison is a player who has a system and process that has data evidence to suggest that it works (Alison has the highest winrate on this entire site). I think that's the major problem tbh.

This requires context, mafia is RNG because you can generally predict to a reasonable degree of certainty who will die before the day starts / you can reasonably predict who will win based on who randed mafia.

Batman the animated series was a stunt to prove that nothing I did mattered because mafia had already won.

I mean, I feel like I've demonstrated this point to a reasonable degree of certainty, so I don't know why you're talking shit.

Where did I talk shit?

In the post I replied to?

[MacDougall]

Are you saying that you consider us to be equals?

No I'm saying your logic doesn't make sense and wouldn't be something you'd think from a legitimate POV if you were town.

How would you know what I think? You've never taken 2 seconds to even try to understand me as a player... Albeit, most of that is because of antics I've pulled, but you assume a lot.

You once claimed that mafia is nothing but RNG and proceeded to willfully refuse to townside in any meaningful way. Alison is a player who has a system and process that has data evidence to suggest that it works (Alison has the highest winrate on this entire site). I think that's the major problem tbh.

This requires context, mafia is RNG because you can generally predict to a reasonable degree of certainty who will die before the day starts / you can reasonably predict who will win based on who randed mafia.

Batman the animated series was a stunt to prove that nothing I did mattered because mafia had already won.

I mean, I feel like I've demonstrated this point to a reasonable degree of certainty, so I don't know why you're talking shit.

Where did I talk shit?

In the post I replied to?

i was just stating a fact you agreed with.. where's the shit talk

[Alison]

Alison has legit been the towniest player in this game every time she's been in the thread you guys are like openwolfing or throwing i swear lol.

Why isn't Alison throwing for exclusively scum reading, exclusively discrediting & exclusively voting townies?

Oh right, that must be her wincon.

You did that through the entirety of basic mafia, was that your wincon there too?

Are you saying that you consider us to be equals?

No I'm saying your logic doesn't make sense and wouldn't be something you'd think from a legitimate POV if you were town.

How would you know what I think? You've never taken 2 seconds to even try to understand me as a player... Albeit, most of that is because of antics I've pulled, but you assume a lot.

I mean, my point is simple.

You're saying that I'm scum because I voted a townie.

But you yourself have had ample experience with towns voting townies. You did it in basic mafia, you even saw me vote out a townie D1 in basic mafia and then get the right solve after.

I don't understand the way you play, that's true, but your assertions about how the gamestate would be likely to look if I was town/mafia don't match up with your own experience with similar gamestates in the past. The most likely explanation for this is that you are making things up, and as town you'd hesitate before going all in on me being scum voting Fext because of basic mafia.

[Seanzie]

Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

No, I am not trying to gaslight you into thinking Fext flipped red. That is absurd.

I am telling you that regardless of Fext's alignment their posts did not logically make sense. I pretty extensively deconstructed why their posts did not logically make sense in my ISO. I believe this to be something done by mafia a lot more than town (except for specific players who are crazy townies like Gavial). Therefore I voted Fext. Whether or not Fext is new doesn't change any of this. I don't see why it is insensitive for me to say that a post is bad when it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not calling Fext garbage, I'm just saying his posting this game has been bad and I voted him out for it.

And you really, truly and honestly think Mac is town based on his D1?

Yes. Mac is a strategic scum player who plays with agenda. He is not likely to straddle the fence and take the worst of both worlds if he is mafia. Here is his last scum game, which he played with me: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ed-Hype%21

Day 1, suspicion falls on two of his mafia buddies: Mich-El, who has been afk and is well known to afk as scum, and Katze, who has made a PR claim and been counterclaimed. Mac hard defends both of them, and aggressively tries to counterwagon Great Partners, who is town. Mich-El goes over and flips mafia instead.

Day 2, Mac hard busses Katze, to the point that it had me townreading him in dead chat despite his D1 attempt at saving her. Katze goes over, and Mac coasts on the cred from killing Katze to win the game.

The point is that scum Mac plays in extremes because he wants to either crush the town or gain an immense amount of towncred. The other game I linked to you, Guns and Venom, he also adopted similarly extreme stances, where he hard defended some people and hard pushed others. I cannot remember Mac making a limp wristed push or back-and-forth stance as scum. I believe that if he was scum here would hard commit to either townreading and shielding, or scumreading and burying Fext, the former to gain as much cred as he can and coast through the game, and the latter to just get a town killed in a game where town have very few misexes.

Mac never went back-and-forth D1, except for his few appeasement posts to me D1 after I pushed people to give content around Fext's imminet flip. He was pushed to this, it was not natural.

What do you think scum!Mac would do if he saw town!Seanzie pushing as hard on town!Fext as I was pushing?

[Seanzie]

Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

I often don't. I ignore him and let other players or the thread state sort him out for me because he is impossible to engage with.

When I do have to try to read Gavial I usually examine the purity of his tone, the consistency of his pushes (he is a lot likely to get stuck as town but will swing crazily to suit an agenda as mafia) and NKA because he is very bad about making kills that screw him over.

How many games deep did it take you to treat gavial like this?

Like 3 or 4? In my first couple of games with him I just voted him out because he was obviously an insane person making insane reads/posts and being really annoying about it. You saw how he was like in Fallout, and I think that was my first game with him. I was 3P who didn't care about the exe and I wanted to kill him anyway lol.

Did you make a case on him his first few games?

[NotAnAxehole]

Alison has legit been the towniest player in this game every time she's been in the thread you guys are like openwolfing or throwing i swear lol.

Why isn't Alison throwing for exclusively scum reading, exclusively discrediting & exclusively voting townies?

Oh right, that must be her wincon.

You did that through the entirety of basic mafia, was that your wincon there too?

Are you saying that you consider us to be equals?

No I'm saying your logic doesn't make sense and wouldn't be something you'd think from a legitimate POV if you were town.

How would you know what I think? You've never taken 2 seconds to even try to understand me as a player... Albeit, most of that is because of antics I've pulled, but you assume a lot.

I mean, my point is simple.

You're saying that I'm scum because I voted a townie.

But you yourself have had ample experience with towns voting townies. You did it in basic mafia, you even saw me vote out a townie D1 in basic mafia and then get the right solve after.

I don't understand the way you play, that's true, but your assertions about how the gamestate would be likely to look if I was town/mafia don't match up with your own experience with similar gamestates in the past. The most likely explanation for this is that you are making things up, and as town you'd hesitate before going all in on me being scum voting Fext because of basic mafia.

I mean, if we don't have to agree, and we'll see how my reads stack up in post.

[Seanzie]

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

requoting

[Seanzie]

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

requoting

@Alison Plz thoughts.

preferably on my whole case, but kinda feel like you've been avoiding this HUGE issue.

[Alison]

Mac never went back-and-forth D1, except for his few appeasement posts to me D1 after I pushed people to give content around Fext's imminet flip. He was pushed to this, it was not natural.

What do you think scum!Mac would do if he saw town!Seanzie pushing as hard on town!Fext as I was pushing?

I think in that scenario he would do one of two things: 1) hard defend Fext and make an ostentatious attempt to try to swing the vote away from Fext, while his mafia buddy plays the other side and ensure Fext goes over, or 2) go "yes, I agree with Seanzie and Alison, Fext is indeed scum", and park on Fext. And then when D2 rolls around, he essentially just says "I dunno, I was sheeping Seanzie/Alison, look at them if you want someone to blame".

If you want specifics:

I think if his mafia partner is NAA he would probably do 2). Remember when I theorized that he would try to swing the vote away from Fext while his mafia buddy parks on Fext? That would essentially be the same strategy, but with NAA being the ostentatious counterwagoner and Mac being the one sleeping on the Fext wagon.

If his mafia partner is Creature then he probably does 1), lets Creature sleep on the Fext wagon, get a town of cred D2, and then shield Creature with his cred (pulling on past meta or just blaming me and you instead of him).

If his mafia partner is Falcon or Wilgy he probably does 1) because he needs thread control and they can't give it to him.

If his mafia partner is me then he almost certainly does 1) and try to make it sound like the Fext wagon was all your fault.

In no worlds do I see it being a worthwhile or attractive play for him to try to townread Fext but in a way that doesn't grab towncred (when Mac absolutely loves grabbing immense towncred to coast on as we saw in Venom and Guns and G10), and also doesn't let him blame you/me for the Fext wagon because he apparently didn't agree with it in the first place. It just doesn't make sense and Mac always has a very strong agenda when he is wolf. The limp wristed back and forth treatment of Fext doesn't reek of a strong agenda to me.

[Alison]

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

requoting

@Alison Plz thoughts.

preferably on my whole case, but kinda feel like you've been avoiding this HUGE issue.

I have spent my last 3 posts doing nothing but address your concerns with Mac.

What issue are you referring to? What do you want me to respond to exactly?

[Alison]

Did you make a case on him his first few games?

Yeah, I just rallied the torches, called him outed scum and tunnelled him to death. You were in Fallout, you saw how it went down. What's this have to do with the game?

[Seanzie]

Mac never went back-and-forth D1, except for his few appeasement posts to me D1 after I pushed people to give content around Fext's imminet flip. He was pushed to this, it was not natural.

What do you think scum!Mac would do if he saw town!Seanzie pushing as hard on town!Fext as I was pushing?

I think in that scenario he would do one of two things: 1) hard defend Fext and make an ostentatious attempt to try to swing the vote away from Fext, while his mafia buddy plays the other side and ensure Fext goes over, or 2) go "yes, I agree with Seanzie and Alison, Fext is indeed scum", and park on Fext. And then when D2 rolls around, he essentially just says "I dunno, I was sheeping Seanzie/Alison, look at them if you want someone to blame".

If you want specifics:

I think if his mafia partner is NAA he would probably do 2). Remember when I theorized that he would try to swing the vote away from Fext while his mafia buddy parks on Fext? That would essentially be the same strategy, but with NAA being the ostentatious counterwagoner and Mac being the one sleeping on the Fext wagon.

If his mafia partner is Creature then he probably does 1), lets Creature sleep on the Fext wagon, get a town of cred D2, and then shield Creature with his cred (pulling on past meta or just blaming me and you instead of him).

If his mafia partner is Falcon or Wilgy he probably does 1) because he needs thread control and they can't give it to him.

If his mafia partner is me then he almost certainly does 1) and try to make it sound like the Fext wagon was all your fault.

In no worlds do I see it being a worthwhile or attractive play for him to try to townread Fext but in a way that doesn't grab towncred (when Mac absolutely loves grabbing immense towncred to coast on as we saw in Venom and Guns and G10), and also doesn't let him blame you/me for the Fext wagon because he apparently didn't agree with it in the first place. It just doesn't make sense and Mac always has a very strong agenda when he is wolf. The limp wristed back and forth treatment of Fext doesn't reek of a strong agenda to me.

And so you see nothing suspicious about Mac super strongly townreading Fext... but continuing to vote them and becoming limp in the thread?

[Seanzie]

I'd like to hear from the people who are not just Mac, Alison and NAA.

I know there is a lot to read, but thoughts, everyone?

[Alison]

What does he gain as scum if he does that? Like, just breaking it down. Scum know the alignments of every other player in the game. If he is scum he knows for certain Fext is town and he wants Fext dead. If he townreads Fext, it is to gain Fext's trust, or the trust of the town. If he votes Fext it is to get Fext killed because he is mafia.

The problem is that if he does both he lessens the effect of either. When he says Fext is towntelling, and he is Mac, some people might move off Fext, so he sabotages his plan to kill Fext. Conversely, by voting Fext he negates all his towncred that he would otherwise gain from his calling Fext town. The only reason Mac would try to do both things at once rather than lean into one side or the other is if he was using mind games and trusting that I would come to this exact conclusion and shield him. Which is why I'd policy him at FX to avoid that possibility, but why would scum Mac mind game D1 when he could just go to sleep and let Seanzie murder Fext?

[Seanzie]

What does he gain as scum if he does that? Like, just breaking it down. Scum know the alignments of every other player in the game. If he is scum he knows for certain Fext is town and he wants Fext dead. If he townreads Fext, it is to gain Fext's trust, or the trust of the town. If he votes Fext it is to get Fext killed because he is mafia.

The problem is that if he does both he lessens the effect of either. When he says Fext is towntelling, and he is Mac, some people might move off Fext, so he sabotages his plan to kill Fext. Conversely, by voting Fext he negates all his towncred that he would otherwise gain from his calling Fext town. The only reason Mac would try to do both things at once rather than lean into one side or the other is if he was using mind games and trusting that I would come to this exact conclusion and shield him. Which is why I'd policy him at FX to avoid that possibility, but why would scum Mac mind game D1 when he could just go to sleep and let Seanzie murder Fext?

I don't think it was necessarily a strategic move. He made a mistake. Fext appears really really pure to those who have TMI. Mac was surprised by how the thread treated Fext.

You are extremely likely to be a wolf to not be aware of this yet.

[MacDougall]

What does he gain as scum if he does that? Like, just breaking it down. Scum know the alignments of every other player in the game. If he is scum he knows for certain Fext is town and he wants Fext dead. If he townreads Fext, it is to gain Fext's trust, or the trust of the town. If he votes Fext it is to get Fext killed because he is mafia.

The problem is that if he does both he lessens the effect of either. When he says Fext is towntelling, and he is Mac, some people might move off Fext, so he sabotages his plan to kill Fext. Conversely, by voting Fext he negates all his towncred that he would otherwise gain from his calling Fext town. The only reason Mac would try to do both things at once rather than lean into one side or the other is if he was using mind games and trusting that I would come to this exact conclusion and shield him. Which is why I'd policy him at FX to avoid that possibility, but why would scum Mac mind game D1 when he could just go to sleep and let Seanzie murder Fext?

I don't think it was necessarily a strategic move. He made a mistake. Fext appears really really pure to those who have TMI. Mac was surprised by how the thread treated Fext.

You are extremely likely to be a wolf to not be aware of this yet.

I had no feeling remotely close to surprise on that subject actually.

What I did have was the feeling they were town based on their play, but then I decided to stay the course. C'est la vie.