GAME OF CHAMPIONS 2021 Endgame (town and 3p win)

[Phil and Gloria]

Anyway, I'm going to start to look at Marmot connections, cause I don't think anyone did that yet

Tbh several people have done that but it's not like I'd expect you to dig through game this size. The main thing that I've arrived at as a result of the Marmot flip is believing that there are 2 triumvirates that maybe contain a wolf in them. That being the people voting for Scotty (a confirmed town), and the people who were voting Paopan with the latter predicated on Paopan being town themselves. Given Paopan isn't flipped I am preferring to dig into the Scotty voters whomst are you, Creature and Master Radishes. Creature has been handling me in good faith and hasn't really pinged me while you and Radishes have not only had shit reads on me you've had shit reads on me, you've also both been lacking in general. Though to Radishes credit I can see the wheels turning whereas with you, right now, you're resorting to some weird defeated general butthurt ate thing that I don't vibe with at all.

[Phil and Gloria]

All that being said, Sloonei is the big elephant in the room who's just entirely in his wolf meta and Sloonei and Radishes both have articulated baseless townreads on one another so I am quite confident one of them is mafia.

[Dyslexicon]

Re: Mac

(I'm probably not going to articulate this as well as I intend to.)

I cracked open some games in the last year I've played with him to double check my feelings (Witcher, Spiderverse, GoC). Mac is known for being abrasive, in yo face, etc as both alignments (where others poke he punches), but I've found there's a slightly different taste to it depending on his alignment. As town he will do his little shtick of quoting a post and being like 'this smells like poop' and then call them scum 20 times for the rest of the round. But he also evolves his reads. Like he gets a light ping by someone, and starts bopping their noses, but then if they get townier he stops and something else pings him and he finds a new punching bag. Along the way he still backreads and analyses and builds cases to confirm or challenge his own reads.

Conversely, scum!Mac mimics that. He remembers to be abrasive and punchy, but he gets caught in a fake worldview for longer and finds it harder to evolve his reads convincingly. He'll take a post that fake-pings him and stick to that read for a long time. He also often forgets to do any actual work to back up his takes. His posts tend to be much shorter and more to the point. If his thread position is secure as the game goes on this can change, and he can start manipulating events to his will, but early on and if people aren't convinced of him he just tries to double down and become more of a bulldozer. (This is exactly what he's doing to me now that I've sussed him.) (FYI he's also not adverse to throwing shade at a partner and even pushing others to vote them, so a one-off suss of Marmot earlier is not clearing in the slightest.)


I am in no way 100% convinced he's scum here (I never am with Mac) but his game so far fits my view of his scum game far more than his town game.

I agree with this account. There's no backbone to Mac's worldview when he's scum. He also never really lands anything. I'm going to reread Mac to see how I feel and also how he treated Marmot. I think his vote was on Marmot when he got shot, but don't remember how he got there.

[Phil and Gloria]

Just reading KZA's iso and given there's been no claim I am going to assume that was a 3p or mafia kill and they were pretty strong on BoKnows being mafia and also Paopan.

[Phil and Gloria]

Re: Mac

(I'm probably not going to articulate this as well as I intend to.)

I cracked open some games in the last year I've played with him to double check my feelings (Witcher, Spiderverse, GoC). Mac is known for being abrasive, in yo face, etc as both alignments (where others poke he punches), but I've found there's a slightly different taste to it depending on his alignment. As town he will do his little shtick of quoting a post and being like 'this smells like poop' and then call them scum 20 times for the rest of the round. But he also evolves his reads. Like he gets a light ping by someone, and starts bopping their noses, but then if they get townier he stops and something else pings him and he finds a new punching bag. Along the way he still backreads and analyses and builds cases to confirm or challenge his own reads.

Conversely, scum!Mac mimics that. He remembers to be abrasive and punchy, but he gets caught in a fake worldview for longer and finds it harder to evolve his reads convincingly. He'll take a post that fake-pings him and stick to that read for a long time. He also often forgets to do any actual work to back up his takes. His posts tend to be much shorter and more to the point. If his thread position is secure as the game goes on this can change, and he can start manipulating events to his will, but early on and if people aren't convinced of him he just tries to double down and become more of a bulldozer. (This is exactly what he's doing to me now that I've sussed him.) (FYI he's also not adverse to throwing shade at a partner and even pushing others to vote them, so a one-off suss of Marmot earlier is not clearing in the slightest.)


I am in no way 100% convinced he's scum here (I never am with Mac) but his game so far fits my view of his scum game far more than his town game.

I agree with this account. There's no backbone to Mac's worldview when he's scum. He also never really lands anything. I'm going to reread Mac to see how I feel and also how he treated Marmot. I think his vote was on Marmot when he got shot, but don't remember how he got there.

I thought that I played myself out of this "Mac can't wolf" bullshit when I entirely schooled an elite town pretty much on my own a month ago?

[Phil and Gloria]

You know how I know Dyslexicon is bullshit. Because he apparently is paying enough attention to be aware that Alison and 112 are scumreading me but apparently doesn't give a shit that Nutella does, and also apparently has no idea why I voted for Marmot.

[Phil and Gloria]

Here is my case on Creature.

All of Creature's posts so far can be divided into one of three categories: useless fluff, attempting to derpclear himself for silly reasons, and "flame fanning".

Category 1: Useless Fluff

Spoiler: show

Why does the game always start when I'm the most low energy?

Wow this got intense so quick

Is this game by any chance bastard? I didn't check before joining

Who is Neeko?

Would much rather just be mafia in bastard games

I think you are.

I'm not mafia and this makes your push on me even more annoying

These posts go beyond the usual RVS horsing around (although we are well out of RVS now). These are posts that show a clear lack of interest in the progression of the game. His questions are flat, shallow, and in many cases could have been easily answered by glancing at the OP. He is more interested in looking like he is around and engaging with the game than actually being around and engaging with the game. He had a ripe opportunity to engage with me about my push on him, and he responded by going "I'm not mafia, I'm annoyed now, go away". I don't get the sense that he cares whether or not I am town misreading him or scum trying to get him killed, and this is especially concerning because in my last scum game I tried to get him killed early on.

I believe him when he says he is low energy. Take note that being low energy and unable to meaningfully engage with the game is a classic Creature scumtell.

Category 2: Attempting to derpclear himself for silly reasons

Spoiler: show

I want the guilty on nutella to be legit

Is soup kill a thing?

Would much rather just be mafia in bastard games

Wait I think the existence of a mafia captain should almost clear me from ever being picked as mafia this game

Unless you want to argue that I'm 3p here? But would be better to seek for the seven mafia first.

If I was mafia captain I would choose players tbh even if it is not mechanically optimal. I would much rather have an enjoyable team to play with.

I know I'd never be picked by the mafia captain if they chose players over roles

Creature makes an excessive number of posts attempting to insinuate that he is town, or in some way get people to "angleshoot" him as being town due to his lack of knowledge about the game mechanics or the inner workings of the mafia ("is there a soup kill?"). But a town Creature who genuinely wanted to know would just check the OP; asking in thread serves no purpose except to try to get people to falsely read him as town. He is aware that he struggles to gain the trust of the town when he is mafia, and he is cheaply attempting to earn this towncred through derptells and "townslips".

Take note that he is trying to convince the game repeatedly that the mafia captain chose players rather than roles. If he is town, he has no reason to believe that the mafia captain chose players over roles. I, personally, have reason to believe that the mafia captain chose roles. I think nutella is much townier than her scum self would be, and as I have argued, a town nutella implies a town Alexa. I know I am town, and I do not think a mafia captain who picked players would pass over both me and Alexa. So this attempt to convince the town - with no evidence whatsoever - that the mafia captain picked players reeks of agenda-pushing to me.

Finally, I want to highlight this line: "Unless you want to argue that I'm 3p here? But would be better to seek for the seven mafia first." Nobody has accused him of being 3P. It comes completely out of the blue, and reads almost as though he is self-aware of his own scumminess and is trying to hang a lampshade of it. I don't think it's a line that would flow naturally from a townie's mouth.

Category 3: Flame Fanning

Spoiler: show

lol if nutella is salty alexa caught her n0

lol if the alexa/nutella w/w theory is right

early take is that Seanzie is probably wolfing imo

Thought I was the only one seeing it

LinearPoint has been accused of fanning the flames. I think Creature is even more guilty of this sin. In his ISO of 19 posts (at the time I wrote this case), Creature utters provocative lines, egging on the suspicions of townies towards each other, three separate times. They are quoted in the spoilers above. Note that he first eggs on the "Alexa has a red check on nutella" narrative, then switches to "Alexa and nutella are wolves together". These narratives are contradictory. Creature does not have an opinion of his own; he just encourages whatever happens to be the prevailing opinion or thread sentiment at the time. This is strongly opportunistic, and this opportunism is exemplified even further by his agreement with 112 that Seanzie is wolfing. How is Seanzie being wolfy? Why has he not brought up this scumread on Seanzie before, if he thought he was the only one seeing it? In fact, if he thinks Seanzie is a wolf and fooling everyone except him, why would he keep quiet about it until someone else brings it up, at which point he eagerly jumps on the bandwagon? Answer: because he is nakedly taking advantage of 112's suspicion to push Seanzie.

At no point does he contribute to the conversation. He does not add evidence to support any narrative. He does not refute the evidence or points that others have brought up. He does not, in fact, engage with the theories and accusations that have been thrown around the thread. He merely fuels the fire with provocative one-liners and moves on without explaining them.

-

Please vote Creature.

jfc Alison you came to play. I take it you aren't the Gambit Demon this go around?

*vomits all over the floor*

the fuck is this game... everyone is saying shit that doesn't matter like it matters and ignoring the woofs just sitting around being openly ridiculously obvious like Scotty and Marmot lol.

jfc Alison you came to play

Hi who are you? Some sort of sock?

up u fuk

Let's just chop marmot lmaoooooo

I am down to clown

tl;dr Marmot made the cringiest post I've ever seen and I hated it and then Nutella voted for him and I thought that was a dope idea.

[Phil and Gloria]

You know how I know Dyslexicon is bullshit. Because he apparently is paying enough attention to be aware that Alison and 112 are scumreading me but apparently doesn't give a shit that Nutella does, and also apparently has no idea why I voted for Marmot.

Nutella doesn't*

[Dyslexicon]

Anyway, I'm going to start to look at Marmot connections, cause I don't think anyone did that yet

Tbh several people have done that but it's not like I'd expect you to dig through game this size. The main thing that I've arrived at as a result of the Marmot flip is believing that there are 2 triumvirates that maybe contain a wolf in them. That being the people voting for Scotty (a confirmed town), and the people who were voting Paopan with the latter predicated on Paopan being town themselves. Given Paopan isn't flipped I am preferring to dig into the Scotty voters whomst are you, Creature and Master Radishes. Creature has been handling me in good faith and hasn't really pinged me while you and Radishes have not only had shit reads on me you've had shit reads on me, you've also both been lacking in general. Though to Radishes credit I can see the wheels turning whereas with you, right now, you're resorting to some weird defeated general butthurt ate thing that I don't vibe with at all.

I actually haven't even made my mind up about you. I've felt that you haven't really landed anything coupled with Alison's concerns from earlier. Maybe you have landed things now on me/MR. Which I don't think is good. Admittedly I haven't payed too much attention to MR. But like ok.

Do you think there was no mafia who voted Marmot when he died?
Do you think it's meaningful where people voted, and how?

[Dyslexicon]

You know how I know Dyslexicon is bullshit. Because he apparently is paying enough attention to be aware that Alison and 112 are scumreading me but apparently doesn't give a shit that Nutella does, and also apparently has no idea why I voted for Marmot.

No. I knew Nutella were, and I didn't know 112 was. And yeah, I don't really remember your Marmot vote. Don't speak for me. And why the fuck would me remembering details be important at all. I remember some and not others. It's how my brain works.

[Phil and Gloria]

Also, [VOTE: Phil and Gloria] aubergine.

Dizzy and Bo wagons are worthwhile too.

What is your reasoning for saying this about Dizzy and Bo suddenly? I've been pushing MR/Dizzy as a t/w pairing for about 12 hours. One would think that if you had reservations about Dyslexicon that me doing that would have moved you in some way prior to this but instead your approach to me is to make a statement about my meta play and then make a bad read off of a good analysis.

[Phil and Gloria]

You know how I know Dyslexicon is bullshit. Because he apparently is paying enough attention to be aware that Alison and 112 are scumreading me but apparently doesn't give a shit that Nutella does, and also apparently has no idea why I voted for Marmot.

No. I knew Nutella were, and I didn't know 112 was. And yeah, I don't really remember your Marmot vote. Don't speak for me. And why the fuck would me remembering details be important at all. I remember some and not others. It's how my brain works.

You knew nutella was what?

[Phil and Gloria]

Anyway, I'm going to start to look at Marmot connections, cause I don't think anyone did that yet

Tbh several people have done that but it's not like I'd expect you to dig through game this size. The main thing that I've arrived at as a result of the Marmot flip is believing that there are 2 triumvirates that maybe contain a wolf in them. That being the people voting for Scotty (a confirmed town), and the people who were voting Paopan with the latter predicated on Paopan being town themselves. Given Paopan isn't flipped I am preferring to dig into the Scotty voters whomst are you, Creature and Master Radishes. Creature has been handling me in good faith and hasn't really pinged me while you and Radishes have not only had shit reads on me you've had shit reads on me, you've also both been lacking in general. Though to Radishes credit I can see the wheels turning whereas with you, right now, you're resorting to some weird defeated general butthurt ate thing that I don't vibe with at all.

I actually haven't even made my mind up about you. I've felt that you haven't really landed anything coupled with Alison's concerns from earlier. Maybe you have landed things now on me/MR. Which I don't think is good. Admittedly I haven't payed too much attention to MR. But like ok.

Do you think there was no mafia who voted Marmot when he died?
Do you think it's meaningful where people voted, and how?

I think there is a chance mafia was voting Marmot but it's not as big of a chance as one of the mafia voting town Scotty who looked like a viable mischop counterwagon to Marmot.

Are you seriously asking me if I think where people vote and how is meaningful? Like what is the implication here? Of course I fucking do. And so do you because you were about to go searching for my reasoning for voting Marmot? What is this question?

[Phil and Gloria]

Let me ask you a question. What's more likely. Mafia voting mafia, or mafia voting a town counterwagon to mafia?

[Phil and Gloria]

Damn this new sticky nav is kinda dope.

[Dyslexicon]

Looking back and Mac's iso it's not as bad as I thought, and there's more of a through line there also. Sigh tbh

[Dyslexicon]

You knew nutella was what?

Ï think Nut has expressed some suspicion on you, but actually I'm not really sure how serious that is. I mostly remember Alison from way earlier.

[Dyslexicon]

I think there is a chance mafia was voting Marmot but it's not as big of a chance as one of the mafia voting town Scotty who looked like a viable mischop counterwagon to Marmot.

Are you seriously asking me if I think where people vote and how is meaningful? Like what is the implication here? Of course I fucking do. And so do you because you were about to go searching for my reasoning for voting Marmot? What is this question?

Mac, you called Scotty mafia yourself. Yes, it dropped off, don't know why, but you called him and Marmot mafia.

And in every D1 mafia has been chopped, there's been plenty of mafia on that wagon. It's the same shit always. Of course, this was different as it wasn't EoD yet, so none of the wagons was fully formed anyway. I actually think it would've been better if these particular wagons in question had had the chance to grow even further tbh. But that's whatever. Beyond that, it's not that a vote was placed somewhere, it's how. I didn't see you vote in thread when you voted, but I saw you were pretty early on Marmot. And I do think Marmot was vote worthy at the time, so I don't really have any problems with your vote.

My thought process on Marmot was that I wasn't very worried in any case. I thought he was town based on a misunderstanding (but it was probably for a dumb reason in the first place), but I retracted that read. My feelings before Marmot was shot was that it was quite likely he was scum actually, but still I'd rather give him room to post exactly because of that. And if he was town, that would probably shine through as well. The day was not done, so I was not very worried about Marmot. I think I can read him fairly well, and he's known for being a much stronger town player than mafia player afaic. I think it's pretty obvious that I did not have TMI on Marmot. It's way too easy to say "But you voted Scotty instead" and it's in bad faith when you also suspected Scotty.

[Phil and Gloria]

Here's a bit of a readslist

112 - Nullish. If I had to GTH I'd say town mostly because I get the feeling if 112 was wolfing in this game they'd be probably just slanking and pushing pro wolf agenda but in the moments they've been playing there has been at least some thoughtfulness apparent.
alexa - Not out of her wolfrange. If there is any reason that she's town it's probably that there has been a sense of everyone trying to appeal to her and appease her which is probably some form of "tHrEaDsPeWeD" maybe. The early game nutella role shit means nothing to me at all. The way she has been avoiding handling me feels weird for specifically her.
Alison - I am just going to townread her for the rest of this day and probably the next day. She has mostly been fine and if she stops being fine I will probably notice.
Belzy - Probably town. All they've done is question people and the questions seem to be coming from a place of trying to fill gaps in their analysis and not just pointless stay busy ones.
BoKnows - Haven't really seen anything from BK here but I'll say lean wolf because of KZA death and MR saying they are voteable.
c4 - One of the more towny players in this game. I have a healthy respect for their wolf play so I am not going to say anything dumb like lack claire but they'd have to get pretty bad for me to care about pushing them.
Creature - Just feels like normal Creature. I probably need to read a recent Creature wolf game or something though because normal Creature isn't exactly difficult for a mafia Creature to replicate. @nutella can you talk to me about Creature please?
DrWilgy - I have no read. If anyone does, I'd love to talk about Wilgy. Will skim this ISO after this post.
dyachei - Shot a wolf so we just call this town I guess.
Dyslexicon - Not vibing. Wolf read.
Ender - I thought Ender was quite towny at first but then they did that thing where they were just derpy and wolfy so unless Ender tells me they were drunk I'm gonna POE this slot (and I might anyway).
falcon - Not hitting the town falcon notes I'm used to and I am a pretty godly Falcon reader. I will review this ISO though because I've probably missed most of their content.
guillo - Hmm I actually kinda suspect Guillo now that I'm forced to think about it lol. There is like the town guillo in moments but it's lacking the authenticity maybe? I dunno, no matter how I articulate this it kinda comes out weird. Sus. POE why not.
Hollowkatt - I want to scumread HK for some things but in retrospect the times I've been in the thread with HK has felt like normal HK and not bs HK so imma town lean em.
Ilario - Not vibing their play at all. Makes sense as wolf with Alexa. (granted I just watched them from the host position so I might just be tinfoiling).
JPIC - No read. Need to ISO.
Linear - For the most part I've felt like they were just a wolf, which probably means they are. But there was a moment earlier I can't remember exactly the context but I had this sense that LP was being shielded by wolves as town. I should ignore this instinct lol.
MR - I am conflicted and want more data. They are POE right now for reasons that aren't really about their play and I should probably stop omgussing them.
Axe - I feel like the only way I am going to arrive at any kind of confident read on Axe is when Linear flips. Red = town Axe, Green = maybe not town Axe but also maybe still. So actually only if Linear flips red lol.
Nutella - Just town lol.
Paopan - POE but I am reserving the right to change this on a moments notice.
Porscha - Need to read the Sloonei/c4 things tbh.
sabie12 - POE. Read their ISO earlier and didn't get the inno child Sabie vibes.
Seanzie - I have no reason to scumread Seanzie aside from that he's annoying lol. I think he's just town.
sig - Lock mafia.
Sloonei - Imma level with y'all I am mostly trying to get Sloonei to do things and don't have a very strong read on him at all. He's capable of what he's doing as town and most of my read is just made up lol.
TSP - I actually can't read TSP tbh. I want to scumread him but the deeper I get into this readslist the more I think I am just shit at mafia.
Urist - As the greatest Urist reader alive, I say town.
Sleep - Lack claire.

[Phil and Gloria]

You knew nutella was what?

Ï think Nut has expressed some suspicion on you, but actually I'm not really sure how serious that is. I mostly remember Alison from way earlier.

Nutella is townreading me now. You might be right that she was suspecting me earlier.

[Phil and Gloria]

I think there is a chance mafia was voting Marmot but it's not as big of a chance as one of the mafia voting town Scotty who looked like a viable mischop counterwagon to Marmot.

Are you seriously asking me if I think where people vote and how is meaningful? Like what is the implication here? Of course I fucking do. And so do you because you were about to go searching for my reasoning for voting Marmot? What is this question?

Mac, you called Scotty mafia yourself. Yes, it dropped off, don't know why, but you called him and Marmot mafia.

And in every D1 mafia has been chopped, there's been plenty of mafia on that wagon. It's the same shit always. Of course, this was different as it wasn't EoD yet, so none of the wagons was fully formed anyway. I actually think it would've been better if these particular wagons in question had had the chance to grow even further tbh. But that's whatever. Beyond that, it's not that a vote was placed somewhere, it's how. I didn't see you vote in thread when you voted, but I saw you were pretty early on Marmot. And I do think Marmot was vote worthy at the time, so I don't really have any problems with your vote.

My thought process on Marmot was that I wasn't very worried in any case. I thought he was town based on a misunderstanding (but it was probably for a dumb reason in the first place), but I retracted that read. My feelings before Marmot was shot was that it was quite likely he was scum actually, but still I'd rather give him room to post exactly because of that. And if he was town, that would probably shine through as well. The day was not done, so I was not very worried about Marmot. I think I can read him fairly well, and he's known for being a much stronger town player than mafia player afaic. I think it's pretty obvious that I did not have TMI on Marmot. It's way too easy to say "But you voted Scotty instead" and it's in bad faith when you also suspected Scotty.

Well yeah Scotty was wolfy but also that's all the more reason for mafia to be voting there.

If there is no mafia in the three Scotty voters... like... I won't be entirely stunned but I'd say it'd be pretty commonly the case. I am probably belabouring it more than I usually would because the information is not retrievable like it would be on MU tbh.

[Phil and Gloria]

that is to say that it's probably something that should be reviewed in light of more flips later in the game

[Dyslexicon]

Sloonei doesn't mention Marmot at all in his ISO. I would maybe expect him to if he had TMI on Marmot, but that is also dependent on how much of the game state he was aware of. And seems like he's mostly out of it. In any case, I don't think Sloonei is my favourite kill/chop this day. He looks legit busy.

[Dyslexicon]

Nutella is townreading me now. You might be right that she was suspecting me earlier.

Oh ok, I was going to ask about that at some point.

[Dyslexicon]

Well yeah Scotty was wolfy but also that's all the more reason for mafia to be voting there.

If there is no mafia in the three Scotty voters... like... I won't be entirely stunned but I'd say it'd be pretty commonly the case. I am probably belabouring it more than I usually would because the information is not retrievable like it would be on MU tbh.

Ok, but I voted Scotty because I wanted to have a wagon there. Marmot already had a lot of attention whereas Scotty did not when I voted. Yes, he turned out to be town, but that is hindsight. I think the more relevant question if you want to read me in particular is if I had tmi on Marmot.

[Master Radishes]

Responding to Mac.

Spoiler: show

I see Mac wants to continue to not be town.

I see you're continuing to avoid addressing the specifics of my argument in favour of hand wavy statements designed to discourage people from townreading me.

You don't have any specifics to your argument. You're just omgusing.

incorrect, you are a suspect due to your vote positioning when Marmot died.

You yourself found Scotty suspect. As did I.

Your premise that one of three voters on one of several counterwagons to Marmot must be Mafia is highly flawed and you should know that. If you want to use it as a starting point, fine, but the level of confidence in me/dizzy/whoever *having to* contain a wolf is too high.

(Dizzy, individually, I agree might be scummy and I see you've asked me about this later.)

Re: Mac

(I'm probably not going to articulate this as well as I intend to.)

I cracked open some games in the last year I've played with him to double check my feelings (Witcher, Spiderverse, GoC). Mac is known for being abrasive, in yo face, etc as both alignments (where others poke he punches), but I've found there's a slightly different taste to it depending on his alignment. As town he will do his little shtick of quoting a post and being like 'this smells like poop' and then call them scum 20 times for the rest of the round. But he also evolves his reads. Like he gets a light ping by someone, and starts bopping their noses, but then if they get townier he stops and something else pings him and he finds a new punching bag. Along the way he still backreads and analyses and builds cases to confirm or challenge his own reads.

Conversely, scum!Mac mimics that. He remembers to be abrasive and punchy, but he gets caught in a fake worldview for longer and finds it harder to evolve his reads convincingly. He'll take a post that fake-pings him and stick to that read for a long time. He also often forgets to do any actual work to back up his takes. His posts tend to be much shorter and more to the point. If his thread position is secure as the game goes on this can change, and he can start manipulating events to his will, but early on and if people aren't convinced of him he just tries to double down and become more of a bulldozer. (This is exactly what he's doing to me now that I've sussed him.) (FYI he's also not adverse to throwing shade at a partner and even pushing others to vote them, so a one-off suss of Marmot earlier is not clearing in the slightest.)


I am in no way 100% convinced he's scum here (I never am with Mac) but his game so far fits my view of his scum game far more than his town game.

there has been several examples in this game of me doing the things you're describing as my town game and also it's day 1 so making a meta read predicated on how my game unfolds in time is pretty bad faith dude

I agree that it's D1. Hence I'm throwing out ideas, e.g. about my feelings on your slot, and now explaining why. I still intend to look elsewhere and give you a chance if I feel better about you as time goes on (like right now I think your latest series of posts after this are probably the towniest I've found you yet).

Tbh I actually think your appraisal of the differences between my town and mafia game is pretty on point. But I don't think you've actually read my content in enough detail to scumread me for it in this game and if you did you wouldn't see what you think you are seeing. For instance I have dropped or at least back off a few early scumreads after giving them shit namely Alison, Linearpoint, Seanzie, TSP. Notwithstanding you now articulating this read is going to confirmation bias into you just presuming that when you do bare witness to the town notes you're aware of that I am just doing it to appease you so that's just fucken grande.

The only real difference to this game here and my usual town game is that until 5 minutes ago I was phone posting and for the first half of the day I was playing during an 8 hour road trip.

This might be fair. I don't intend to let your reaction here to me sway me much, but it doesn't mean I'm not going to keep an open mind. It's D1, as you say.

Also, [VOTE: Phil and Gloria] aubergine.

Dizzy and Bo wagons are worthwhile too.

What is your reasoning for saying this about Dizzy and Bo suddenly? I've been pushing MR/Dizzy as a t/w pairing for about 12 hours. One would think that if you had reservations about Dyslexicon that me doing that would have moved you in some way prior to this but instead your approach to me is to make a statement about my meta play and then make a bad read off of a good analysis.

I've thrown some light shade at Bo already, so that's not out of nowhere.

I've never claimed a TR on Dizzy. He felt fine enough last night in the thread, but there was a post he made (I'll go find it after this) where his reaction was, like, emotional and complainy, and it pinged me. I can't remember why other people have found him sus but I remember skimming posts and being like 'yeah, I can see that' at the time.

[Dyslexicon]

Mac might be town though. You heard it here not first.

[Phil and Gloria]

Here's a bit of a readslist

112 - Nullish. If I had to GTH I'd say town mostly because I get the feeling if 112 was wolfing in this game they'd be probably just slanking and pushing pro wolf agenda but in the moments they've been playing there has been at least some thoughtfulness apparent.
alexa - Not out of her wolfrange. If there is any reason that she's town it's probably that there has been a sense of everyone trying to appeal to her and appease her which is probably some form of "tHrEaDsPeWeD" maybe. The early game nutella role shit means nothing to me at all. The way she has been avoiding handling me feels weird for specifically her.
Alison - I am just going to townread her for the rest of this day and probably the next day. She has mostly been fine and if she stops being fine I will probably notice.
Belzy - Probably town. All they've done is question people and the questions seem to be coming from a place of trying to fill gaps in their analysis and not just pointless stay busy ones.
BoKnows - Haven't really seen anything from BK here but I'll say lean wolf because of KZA death and MR saying they are voteable.
c4 - One of the more towny players in this game. I have a healthy respect for their wolf play so I am not going to say anything dumb like lack claire but they'd have to get pretty bad for me to care about pushing them.
Creature - Just feels like normal Creature. I probably need to read a recent Creature wolf game or something though because normal Creature isn't exactly difficult for a mafia Creature to replicate. @nutella can you talk to me about Creature please?
DrWilgy - I have no read. If anyone does, I'd love to talk about Wilgy. Will skim this ISO after this post.
dyachei - Shot a wolf so we just call this town I guess.
Dyslexicon - Not vibing. Wolf read.
Ender - I thought Ender was quite towny at first but then they did that thing where they were just derpy and wolfy so unless Ender tells me they were drunk I'm gonna POE this slot (and I might anyway).
falcon - Not hitting the town falcon notes I'm used to and I am a pretty godly Falcon reader. I will review this ISO though because I've probably missed most of their content.
guillo - Hmm I actually kinda suspect Guillo now that I'm forced to think about it lol. There is like the town guillo in moments but it's lacking the authenticity maybe? I dunno, no matter how I articulate this it kinda comes out weird. Sus. POE why not.
Hollowkatt - I want to scumread HK for some things but in retrospect the times I've been in the thread with HK has felt like normal HK and not bs HK so imma town lean em.
Ilario - Not vibing their play at all. Makes sense as wolf with Alexa. (granted I just watched them from the host position so I might just be tinfoiling).
JPIC - No read. Need to ISO.
Linear - For the most part I've felt like they were just a wolf, which probably means they are. But there was a moment earlier I can't remember exactly the context but I had this sense that LP was being shielded by wolves as town. I should ignore this instinct lol.
MR - I am conflicted and want more data. They are POE right now for reasons that aren't really about their play and I should probably stop omgussing them.
Axe - I feel like the only way I am going to arrive at any kind of confident read on Axe is when Linear flips. Red = town Axe, Green = maybe not town Axe but also maybe still. So actually only if Linear flips red lol.
Nutella - Just town lol.
Paopan - POE but I am reserving the right to change this on a moments notice.
Porscha - Need to read the Sloonei/c4 things tbh.
sabie12 - POE. Read their ISO earlier and didn't get the inno child Sabie vibes.
Seanzie - I have no reason to scumread Seanzie aside from that he's annoying lol. I think he's just town.
sig - Lock mafia.
Sloonei - Imma level with y'all I am mostly trying to get Sloonei to do things and don't have a very strong read on him at all. He's capable of what he's doing as town and most of my read is just made up lol.
TSP - I actually can't read TSP tbh. I want to scumread him but the deeper I get into this readslist the more I think I am just shit at mafia.
Urist - As the greatest Urist reader alive, I say town.
Sleep - Lack claire.

Town

c4
belzy
alison
nutella
dyachei
seanzie
urist

lean town

112
alexa
creature
hollowkatt

null null

wilgy
jpic
axe
porscha
sig
sloonei


poe

bo
dizzy
ender
falcon
guillo
illario
linear
mr
paopan
sabie
tsp

my poe way too big... someone/s tell me who I am obviously wrong on please

[Phil and Gloria]

okay so if i put on my sanity hat and take off my insanity underpants I could just take out like ender, illario, mr and tsp maybe

[Dyslexicon]

Does anyone town read me? lol. It's like someone says a read on me, and then everyone has that read. It pretty much happens every game. If the game has enough of the right people in it, the read will be scum. It's very predictable. Not to be all boss bitch, but I haven't lost a game I was mafia in for years. And now everyone thinks they know how to read me and how I work. Oh yes, must be obvious scum. I mean, it's fine. But if I'm right about my strongest town reads and they scum read me back, maybe remember that for next game this time? Thanks for coming to my self pity ted talk.

[Dyslexicon]

poe

bo
dizzy
ender
falcon
guillo
illario
linear
mr
paopan
sabie
tsp

my poe way too big... someone/s tell me who I am obviously wrong on please

Me. And probably Ilario.

[Phil and Gloria]

bo
dizzy
falcon
guillo
linear
sabie

then I take out paopan for being a counterwagon to mafia

then i have a limp dick wolf team that is never accurate but is still probably at least 3 wolves so gg i guess

[Master Radishes]

Does anyone town read me? lol. It's like someone says a read on me, and then everyone has that read. It pretty much happens every game. If the game has enough of the right people in it, the read will be scum. It's very predictable. Not to be all boss bitch, but I haven't lost a game I was mafia in for years. And now everyone thinks they know how to read me and how I work. Oh yes, must be obvious scum. I mean, it's fine. But if I'm right about my strongest town reads and they scum read me back, maybe remember that for next game this time? Thanks for coming to my self pity ted talk.

If you're town I'll find you eventually. I always do.

[Phil and Gloria]

Does anyone town read me? lol. It's like someone says a read on me, and then everyone has that read. It pretty much happens every game. If the game has enough of the right people in it, the read will be scum. It's very predictable. Not to be all boss bitch, but I haven't lost a game I was mafia in for years. And now everyone thinks they know how to read me and how I work. Oh yes, must be obvious scum. I mean, it's fine. But if I'm right about my strongest town reads and they scum read me back, maybe remember that for next game this time? Thanks for coming to my self pity ted talk.

take yourself out of my poe i just posted and put someone else in it in a convincing way and i will at the very least pretend i don't think you're mafia

[Dyslexicon]

If you're town I'll find you eventually. I always do.

Good, I believe in you.

[Dyslexicon]

I think that's pretty towny from MR.

[Phil and Gloria]

Responding to Mac.

Spoiler: show

I see Mac wants to continue to not be town.

I see you're continuing to avoid addressing the specifics of my argument in favour of hand wavy statements designed to discourage people from townreading me.

You don't have any specifics to your argument. You're just omgusing.

incorrect, you are a suspect due to your vote positioning when Marmot died.

You yourself found Scotty suspect. As did I.

Your premise that one of three voters on one of several counterwagons to Marmot must be Mafia is highly flawed and you should know that. If you want to use it as a starting point, fine, but the level of confidence in me/dizzy/whoever *having to* contain a wolf is too high.

(Dizzy, individually, I agree might be scummy and I see you've asked me about this later.)

Re: Mac

(I'm probably not going to articulate this as well as I intend to.)

I cracked open some games in the last year I've played with him to double check my feelings (Witcher, Spiderverse, GoC). Mac is known for being abrasive, in yo face, etc as both alignments (where others poke he punches), but I've found there's a slightly different taste to it depending on his alignment. As town he will do his little shtick of quoting a post and being like 'this smells like poop' and then call them scum 20 times for the rest of the round. But he also evolves his reads. Like he gets a light ping by someone, and starts bopping their noses, but then if they get townier he stops and something else pings him and he finds a new punching bag. Along the way he still backreads and analyses and builds cases to confirm or challenge his own reads.

Conversely, scum!Mac mimics that. He remembers to be abrasive and punchy, but he gets caught in a fake worldview for longer and finds it harder to evolve his reads convincingly. He'll take a post that fake-pings him and stick to that read for a long time. He also often forgets to do any actual work to back up his takes. His posts tend to be much shorter and more to the point. If his thread position is secure as the game goes on this can change, and he can start manipulating events to his will, but early on and if people aren't convinced of him he just tries to double down and become more of a bulldozer. (This is exactly what he's doing to me now that I've sussed him.) (FYI he's also not adverse to throwing shade at a partner and even pushing others to vote them, so a one-off suss of Marmot earlier is not clearing in the slightest.)


I am in no way 100% convinced he's scum here (I never am with Mac) but his game so far fits my view of his scum game far more than his town game.

there has been several examples in this game of me doing the things you're describing as my town game and also it's day 1 so making a meta read predicated on how my game unfolds in time is pretty bad faith dude

I agree that it's D1. Hence I'm throwing out ideas, e.g. about my feelings on your slot, and now explaining why. I still intend to look elsewhere and give you a chance if I feel better about you as time goes on (like right now I think your latest series of posts after this are probably the towniest I've found you yet).

Tbh I actually think your appraisal of the differences between my town and mafia game is pretty on point. But I don't think you've actually read my content in enough detail to scumread me for it in this game and if you did you wouldn't see what you think you are seeing. For instance I have dropped or at least back off a few early scumreads after giving them shit namely Alison, Linearpoint, Seanzie, TSP. Notwithstanding you now articulating this read is going to confirmation bias into you just presuming that when you do bare witness to the town notes you're aware of that I am just doing it to appease you so that's just fucken grande.

The only real difference to this game here and my usual town game is that until 5 minutes ago I was phone posting and for the first half of the day I was playing during an 8 hour road trip.

This might be fair. I don't intend to let your reaction here to me sway me much, but it doesn't mean I'm not going to keep an open mind. It's D1, as you say.

Also, [VOTE: Phil and Gloria] aubergine.

Dizzy and Bo wagons are worthwhile too.

What is your reasoning for saying this about Dizzy and Bo suddenly? I've been pushing MR/Dizzy as a t/w pairing for about 12 hours. One would think that if you had reservations about Dyslexicon that me doing that would have moved you in some way prior to this but instead your approach to me is to make a statement about my meta play and then make a bad read off of a good analysis.

I've thrown some light shade at Bo already, so that's not out of nowhere.

I've never claimed a TR on Dizzy. He felt fine enough last night in the thread, but there was a post he made (I'll go find it after this) where his reaction was, like, emotional and complainy, and it pinged me. I can't remember why other people have found him sus but I remember skimming posts and being like 'yeah, I can see that' at the time.

Since when is me having high confidence in my day 1 analysis something that you suspect me for... that's like objectively a terrible reason for suspecting me. I am on the record for years as being someone that projects confidence tactically. You know this.

[Phil and Gloria]

I think that's pretty towny from MR.

so you're partners?

[Phil and Gloria]

I'm just joking it's a meme don't hurt me.

[Master Radishes]

Different tangent of conversation from earlier:

Marmot could definitely be a captain choice from some people. He had a run of like 4 straight winning scum games maybe sometime about a year ago? Or whenever he returned. This game wasn't a great start for him, but still, there are Syndicaters who would choose him pre-game for sure.

That said, I don't think the tracker role is that bad of a choice, or at least considering we don't know what's out there available (and the list was not unlimited) then I don't think it's a stretch that a Mafia captain chose it as one of their team's roles. If you get, like, 5 choices, then a tracker could be a useful complementary one.

Basically we still can't (and shouldn't) read into this sort of thing yet, if at all.

[Phil and Gloria]

@TonyStarkPrime if you're still voting nutella when I wake up I am probably gonna just browbeat the entire game into cfding you.

[Phil and Gloria]

[VOTE: guillo] aubergine

@Guillotine dance bitch

[Phil and Gloria]

where is belzy i thought they were working themselves into doing something cool but then they just disappeared

[Master Radishes]

Responding to Mac.

Spoiler: show

I see Mac wants to continue to not be town.

I see you're continuing to avoid addressing the specifics of my argument in favour of hand wavy statements designed to discourage people from townreading me.

You don't have any specifics to your argument. You're just omgusing.

incorrect, you are a suspect due to your vote positioning when Marmot died.

You yourself found Scotty suspect. As did I.

Your premise that one of three voters on one of several counterwagons to Marmot must be Mafia is highly flawed and you should know that. If you want to use it as a starting point, fine, but the level of confidence in me/dizzy/whoever *having to* contain a wolf is too high.

(Dizzy, individually, I agree might be scummy and I see you've asked me about this later.)

Re: Mac

(I'm probably not going to articulate this as well as I intend to.)

I cracked open some games in the last year I've played with him to double check my feelings (Witcher, Spiderverse, GoC). Mac is known for being abrasive, in yo face, etc as both alignments (where others poke he punches), but I've found there's a slightly different taste to it depending on his alignment. As town he will do his little shtick of quoting a post and being like 'this smells like poop' and then call them scum 20 times for the rest of the round. But he also evolves his reads. Like he gets a light ping by someone, and starts bopping their noses, but then if they get townier he stops and something else pings him and he finds a new punching bag. Along the way he still backreads and analyses and builds cases to confirm or challenge his own reads.

Conversely, scum!Mac mimics that. He remembers to be abrasive and punchy, but he gets caught in a fake worldview for longer and finds it harder to evolve his reads convincingly. He'll take a post that fake-pings him and stick to that read for a long time. He also often forgets to do any actual work to back up his takes. His posts tend to be much shorter and more to the point. If his thread position is secure as the game goes on this can change, and he can start manipulating events to his will, but early on and if people aren't convinced of him he just tries to double down and become more of a bulldozer. (This is exactly what he's doing to me now that I've sussed him.) (FYI he's also not adverse to throwing shade at a partner and even pushing others to vote them, so a one-off suss of Marmot earlier is not clearing in the slightest.)


I am in no way 100% convinced he's scum here (I never am with Mac) but his game so far fits my view of his scum game far more than his town game.

there has been several examples in this game of me doing the things you're describing as my town game and also it's day 1 so making a meta read predicated on how my game unfolds in time is pretty bad faith dude

I agree that it's D1. Hence I'm throwing out ideas, e.g. about my feelings on your slot, and now explaining why. I still intend to look elsewhere and give you a chance if I feel better about you as time goes on (like right now I think your latest series of posts after this are probably the towniest I've found you yet).

Tbh I actually think your appraisal of the differences between my town and mafia game is pretty on point. But I don't think you've actually read my content in enough detail to scumread me for it in this game and if you did you wouldn't see what you think you are seeing. For instance I have dropped or at least back off a few early scumreads after giving them shit namely Alison, Linearpoint, Seanzie, TSP. Notwithstanding you now articulating this read is going to confirmation bias into you just presuming that when you do bare witness to the town notes you're aware of that I am just doing it to appease you so that's just fucken grande.

The only real difference to this game here and my usual town game is that until 5 minutes ago I was phone posting and for the first half of the day I was playing during an 8 hour road trip.

This might be fair. I don't intend to let your reaction here to me sway me much, but it doesn't mean I'm not going to keep an open mind. It's D1, as you say.

Also, [VOTE: Phil and Gloria] aubergine.

Dizzy and Bo wagons are worthwhile too.

What is your reasoning for saying this about Dizzy and Bo suddenly? I've been pushing MR/Dizzy as a t/w pairing for about 12 hours. One would think that if you had reservations about Dyslexicon that me doing that would have moved you in some way prior to this but instead your approach to me is to make a statement about my meta play and then make a bad read off of a good analysis.

I've thrown some light shade at Bo already, so that's not out of nowhere.

I've never claimed a TR on Dizzy. He felt fine enough last night in the thread, but there was a post he made (I'll go find it after this) where his reaction was, like, emotional and complainy, and it pinged me. I can't remember why other people have found him sus but I remember skimming posts and being like 'yeah, I can see that' at the time.

Since when is me having high confidence in my day 1 analysis something that you suspect me for... that's like objectively a terrible reason for suspecting me. I am on the record for years as being someone that projects confidence tactically. You know this.

I don't mind you having confidence, I just find it pretty bleh *what* you're confident about. Like in a game of 30+ players you take an early game 3-voter wagon and say one of them has to be scum? As a though experiment, fine, I do that sort of thing in my head sometimes. But you tunneled into that pretty hard for my liking.

[Phil and Gloria]

Mac might be town though. You heard it here not first.

it makes me laugh knowing that for me to go from punching bag to townread all i have to do is turn my laptop on

[Master Radishes]

Also Mac that's not really a major point for me anyway. Just clarifying why I think it's meh.

[Master Radishes]

Also for real the phone/laptop thing applies to me too so I can see that changing Mac's approach to the game.

[Phil and Gloria]

Responding to Mac.

Spoiler: show

I see Mac wants to continue to not be town.

I see you're continuing to avoid addressing the specifics of my argument in favour of hand wavy statements designed to discourage people from townreading me.

You don't have any specifics to your argument. You're just omgusing.

incorrect, you are a suspect due to your vote positioning when Marmot died.

You yourself found Scotty suspect. As did I.

Your premise that one of three voters on one of several counterwagons to Marmot must be Mafia is highly flawed and you should know that. If you want to use it as a starting point, fine, but the level of confidence in me/dizzy/whoever *having to* contain a wolf is too high.

(Dizzy, individually, I agree might be scummy and I see you've asked me about this later.)

Re: Mac

(I'm probably not going to articulate this as well as I intend to.)

I cracked open some games in the last year I've played with him to double check my feelings (Witcher, Spiderverse, GoC). Mac is known for being abrasive, in yo face, etc as both alignments (where others poke he punches), but I've found there's a slightly different taste to it depending on his alignment. As town he will do his little shtick of quoting a post and being like 'this smells like poop' and then call them scum 20 times for the rest of the round. But he also evolves his reads. Like he gets a light ping by someone, and starts bopping their noses, but then if they get townier he stops and something else pings him and he finds a new punching bag. Along the way he still backreads and analyses and builds cases to confirm or challenge his own reads.

Conversely, scum!Mac mimics that. He remembers to be abrasive and punchy, but he gets caught in a fake worldview for longer and finds it harder to evolve his reads convincingly. He'll take a post that fake-pings him and stick to that read for a long time. He also often forgets to do any actual work to back up his takes. His posts tend to be much shorter and more to the point. If his thread position is secure as the game goes on this can change, and he can start manipulating events to his will, but early on and if people aren't convinced of him he just tries to double down and become more of a bulldozer. (This is exactly what he's doing to me now that I've sussed him.) (FYI he's also not adverse to throwing shade at a partner and even pushing others to vote them, so a one-off suss of Marmot earlier is not clearing in the slightest.)


I am in no way 100% convinced he's scum here (I never am with Mac) but his game so far fits my view of his scum game far more than his town game.

there has been several examples in this game of me doing the things you're describing as my town game and also it's day 1 so making a meta read predicated on how my game unfolds in time is pretty bad faith dude

I agree that it's D1. Hence I'm throwing out ideas, e.g. about my feelings on your slot, and now explaining why. I still intend to look elsewhere and give you a chance if I feel better about you as time goes on (like right now I think your latest series of posts after this are probably the towniest I've found you yet).

Tbh I actually think your appraisal of the differences between my town and mafia game is pretty on point. But I don't think you've actually read my content in enough detail to scumread me for it in this game and if you did you wouldn't see what you think you are seeing. For instance I have dropped or at least back off a few early scumreads after giving them shit namely Alison, Linearpoint, Seanzie, TSP. Notwithstanding you now articulating this read is going to confirmation bias into you just presuming that when you do bare witness to the town notes you're aware of that I am just doing it to appease you so that's just fucken grande.

The only real difference to this game here and my usual town game is that until 5 minutes ago I was phone posting and for the first half of the day I was playing during an 8 hour road trip.

This might be fair. I don't intend to let your reaction here to me sway me much, but it doesn't mean I'm not going to keep an open mind. It's D1, as you say.

Also, [VOTE: Phil and Gloria] aubergine.

Dizzy and Bo wagons are worthwhile too.

What is your reasoning for saying this about Dizzy and Bo suddenly? I've been pushing MR/Dizzy as a t/w pairing for about 12 hours. One would think that if you had reservations about Dyslexicon that me doing that would have moved you in some way prior to this but instead your approach to me is to make a statement about my meta play and then make a bad read off of a good analysis.

I've thrown some light shade at Bo already, so that's not out of nowhere.

I've never claimed a TR on Dizzy. He felt fine enough last night in the thread, but there was a post he made (I'll go find it after this) where his reaction was, like, emotional and complainy, and it pinged me. I can't remember why other people have found him sus but I remember skimming posts and being like 'yeah, I can see that' at the time.

Since when is me having high confidence in my day 1 analysis something that you suspect me for... that's like objectively a terrible reason for suspecting me. I am on the record for years as being someone that projects confidence tactically. You know this.

I don't mind you having confidence, I just find it pretty bleh *what* you're confident about. Like in a game of 30+ players you take an early game 3-voter wagon and say one of them has to be scum? As a though experiment, fine, I do that sort of thing in my head sometimes. But you tunneled into that pretty hard for my liking.

Well when I "tunneled into it" I got reactions that I didn't like.

[Phil and Gloria]

Phil and Gloria244
alexa171
Creature156
LinearPoint152
nutella138
Alison135
Seanzie129
EnderWiggin121
Dyslexicon120
ilario118
Master Radishes112
Guillotine109
c4e5g3d5100
Belzy99
TonyStarkPrime93
11292
hollowkatt87
falcon45ca54
NotAnAxehole53
Justplayingitcool50
Sloonei48
dyachei39
Urist38
Paopan35
Scotty33
Porscha29
KZA26
sabie1217
BoKnows13
Marmot13
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME13
DrWilgy10
Syn1

LOOK AT ME I AM THE TOP POSTER NOW

[Phil and Gloria]

hmmm i'm outposting all these hyperposters and i am barely trying... sussssss