GAME OF CHAMPIONS 2021 Endgame (town and 3p win)

[alexa]

BTW how do you guys know that the wolf captain will actually flip as wolf captain? I feel like the OP implies they would just flip as whatever role they were

[Master Radishes]

Seanzie ( 7 ): Urist, NotAnAxehole, Paopan, Belzy, TonyStarkPrime, DrWilgy, nutella
DrWilgy ( 6 ): sabie, dyachei, ender, seanzie, radishes, c4
NotAnAxehole ( 4 ): Guillotine, alexa, Phil and Gloria, ilario
EnderWiggin ( 3 ): dyslexicon, jpic, falcon
112 ( 1 ): Sloonei
falcon45ca ( 1 ): 112
Porscha ( 1 ): linearpoint
sig ( 1 ): hollowkatt
Not Voting ( 3 ): Creature, sig, porscha

Just cuz I like staring at coloured lists.

What's clear is the scum did the usual thing where they don't want to sit too close together as if wagon proximity will give them away. What's unclear is how much of that was based around Wilgy; if Wilgy is town, the flavour of how they made their vote choices will be different.

I think there are certain slots that just have to be wolves. If we end up flipping e.g. Wilgy and he's town, suddenly we're running out of PoE space and we need to open up to dya/ilario or something.

What are people's thoughts on LP btw?

[Master Radishes]

BTW how do you guys know that the wolf captain will actually flip as wolf captain? I feel like the OP implies they would just flip as whatever role they were

I don't think we do know? I've certainly not thought of it that way - I'm just speculating on who the captain would be if the team was [old time syndicaters].

[Master Radishes]

To be clear I think it's still more likely roles were chosen, though.

[ilario]

Honestly I think alison and Nutella were right lol

[ilario]

The way creature defends sabie is bad regardless of whatever sabie is real or not

If Sabie is town creature is purposely trying to keep him alive as bait
If sabie is wolf then creature is protecting a wolfbro with kp

[Justplayingitcool]

Seanzie ( 7 ): Urist, NotAnAxehole, Paopan, Belzy, TonyStarkPrime, DrWilgy, nutella
DrWilgy ( 6 ): sabie, dyachei, ender, seanzie, radishes, c4
NotAnAxehole ( 4 ): Guillotine, alexa, Phil and Gloria, ilario
EnderWiggin ( 3 ): dyslexicon, jpic, falcon
112 ( 1 ): Sloonei
falcon45ca ( 1 ): 112
Porscha ( 1 ): linearpoint
sig ( 1 ): hollowkatt
Not Voting ( 3 ): Creature, sig, porscha

Just cuz I like staring at coloured lists.

What's clear is the scum did the usual thing where they don't want to sit too close together as if wagon proximity will give them away. What's unclear is how much of that was based around Wilgy; if Wilgy is town, the flavour of how they made their vote choices will be different.

I think there are certain slots that just have to be wolves. If we end up flipping e.g. Wilgy and he's town, suddenly we're running out of PoE space and we need to open up to dya/ilario or something.

What are people's thoughts on LP btw?

I think LP is town

[ilario]

Damn, creature being scum is a blimp on my reads this game

That’s a feelsbadman

[ilario]

And the way creature wants to resolve wilgy and sloonei is a big yikes imo

They seem like easy pushes that feel >rand town to me

[ilario]

Wondering rn if I should open creatures iso and bury him if he’s a wolf

[Creature]

Can't wait for the soup kill to be used so we're allowed to massclaim

[Creature]

The way creature defends sabie is bad regardless of whatever sabie is real or not

If Sabie is town creature is purposely trying to keep him alive as bait
If sabie is wolf then creature is protecting a wolfbro with kp

Doesn't make sense if sabie is a town full vig.

[ilario]

It does when he keeps shooting other villas

[Creature]

BTW how do you guys know that the wolf captain will actually flip as wolf captain? I feel like the OP implies they would just flip as whatever role they were

I don't think we do know? I've certainly not thought of it that way - I'm just speculating on who the captain would be if the team was [old time syndicaters].

If the team is old time syndicaters then I'm neither captain nor picked. That could also exclude Paopan.

[Creature]

It does when he keeps shooting other villas

sabie is shooting players we already suspected. Also it's too risky to leave town vig alive unblocked.

[Master Radishes]

BTW how do you guys know that the wolf captain will actually flip as wolf captain? I feel like the OP implies they would just flip as whatever role they were

I don't think we do know? I've certainly not thought of it that way - I'm just speculating on who the captain would be if the team was [old time syndicaters].

If the team is old time syndicaters then I'm neither captain nor picked. That could also exclude Paopan.

I know. My speculative list for that scenario didn't include you two.

[ilario]

Ur defense of sabie is so wolfy and not a towny perspective one bit

Who cares if they’re shooting people others incorrrecly suspected, it’s worrying that u want to protect that slot but Continuously tinfoil me and dya who actually shot wolves

[Creature]

BTW how do you guys know that the wolf captain will actually flip as wolf captain? I feel like the OP implies they would just flip as whatever role they were

I don't think we do know? I've certainly not thought of it that way - I'm just speculating on who the captain would be if the team was [old time syndicaters].

If the team is old time syndicaters then I'm neither captain nor picked. That could also exclude Paopan.

I know. My speculative list for that scenario didn't include you two.

Guess neither DrWilgy

[Creature]

If the wolfteam is comprised of old syndicaters then wolf equity for Sloonei and Phil&Macklemore increases.

[Creature]

Ur defense of sabie is so wolfy and not a towny perspective one bit

Who cares if they’re shooting people others incorrrecly suspected, it’s worrying that u want to protect that slot but Continuously tinfoil me and dya who actually shot wolves

I think sabie showed progression on Ender. Both Ender and c4e5g3d5 feels like shots wolves wouldn't make. Also I freaked out when it felt like town was lynching their own nightvig who claimed to have another shot. I'm willing to keep sabie alive if she keeps vigging the wolfy players.

You and dya, on the other hand, don't seem to have any more shots left and hence you two don't need to commit into townsiding for the rest of the game if wolves.

[ilario]

Where did they show progression and what about that progression can not come from a mafia to you?

[ilario]

If the POE is correct, 4 of these 7 names are mafia:

Creature
DrWilgy
Justplayingitcool
LinearPoint
Paopan
Phil and Gloria
sabie12

If your name is on the list, cross yourself off. Add me to it if you like. If your name is not on the list, you probably want to add me to it, so you're looking for 4 out of 8 rather than 4 out of 7. Sorry.

To the three civilians on this list, it's on you (and me) to prove to everybody else that you are town. Do so without claiming, please and thanks. A great weapon for proving your towniness is to simply hunt for the remaining bad guys. This game is not nearly as dire as it might have seemed ~24 hours ago. Let's all secure our 2022 wins here so we can all meet back for next year's GoC.

Paopan last minute EoD 2 to push towards tsp and insisting guillo was town could have been tmi push. Mac-yo last minute saved jpic from being on the chopping block and based on some of the responses to suspicion seem like scum mac. Wilgy has been saved from being chopped twice. First EoD creature unvoted which helped lead to seanzie being chopped. Wilgy has seemed more towny as the game goes on though so im torn there. LP claim to save alexa? I have to look more into sloonei. I remember the push on c4 but now he ended up flipping town. I still don't think creature is 100 percent free from suspicion as I could see him partnered with tsp or jpic who keeps saying he is the towniest person in the game and I think he is convincing as mafia. For now if I had to make a quick guess I'd say paopan jpic mac-yo wilgy but I'll have to look more into isos as well. I also need to sleep this game has been hurting my brain trying to figure it out.

Please holster tonight

I think mafia are gonna soup tonight just a hunch but I think so, and if u shoot another town we might just straight up lose in one night. I think you shooting tonight can be a game losing move

[ilario]

Ftr I think creature has tmi’d u town which is why I’m talking to you like a town vigi now

[ilario]

I read Mac iso for the way he treats creature and it's really bizarre

can u point to specifics? i can see them being w/w tbh

[sabie12]

If the POE is correct, 4 of these 7 names are mafia:

Creature
DrWilgy
Justplayingitcool
LinearPoint
Paopan
Phil and Gloria
sabie12

If your name is on the list, cross yourself off. Add me to it if you like. If your name is not on the list, you probably want to add me to it, so you're looking for 4 out of 8 rather than 4 out of 7. Sorry.

To the three civilians on this list, it's on you (and me) to prove to everybody else that you are town. Do so without claiming, please and thanks. A great weapon for proving your towniness is to simply hunt for the remaining bad guys. This game is not nearly as dire as it might have seemed ~24 hours ago. Let's all secure our 2022 wins here so we can all meet back for next year's GoC.

Paopan last minute EoD 2 to push towards tsp and insisting guillo was town could have been tmi push. Mac-yo last minute saved jpic from being on the chopping block and based on some of the responses to suspicion seem like scum mac. Wilgy has been saved from being chopped twice. First EoD creature unvoted which helped lead to seanzie being chopped. Wilgy has seemed more towny as the game goes on though so im torn there. LP claim to save alexa? I have to look more into sloonei. I remember the push on c4 but now he ended up flipping town. I still don't think creature is 100 percent free from suspicion as I could see him partnered with tsp or jpic who keeps saying he is the towniest person in the game and I think he is convincing as mafia. For now if I had to make a quick guess I'd say paopan jpic mac-yo wilgy but I'll have to look more into isos as well. I also need to sleep this game has been hurting my brain trying to figure it out.

Please holster tonight

I think mafia are gonna soup tonight just a hunch but I think so, and if u shoot another town we might just straight up lose in one night. I think you shooting tonight can be a game losing move

Okay yeah I see what you're saying here. Yeah I chose targets that were within the POE and it sucks I ended up being wrong. I don't want to be wrong again. I was going to say have falcon check me if there's any doubt but depends if we even live past tonight. You think creature is keeping me alive to lull me into a false sense of security and then soup me?

[ilario]

If the POE is correct, 4 of these 7 names are mafia:

Creature
DrWilgy
Justplayingitcool
LinearPoint
Paopan
Phil and Gloria
sabie12

If your name is on the list, cross yourself off. Add me to it if you like. If your name is not on the list, you probably want to add me to it, so you're looking for 4 out of 8 rather than 4 out of 7. Sorry.

To the three civilians on this list, it's on you (and me) to prove to everybody else that you are town. Do so without claiming, please and thanks. A great weapon for proving your towniness is to simply hunt for the remaining bad guys. This game is not nearly as dire as it might have seemed ~24 hours ago. Let's all secure our 2022 wins here so we can all meet back for next year's GoC.

Paopan last minute EoD 2 to push towards tsp and insisting guillo was town could have been tmi push. Mac-yo last minute saved jpic from being on the chopping block and based on some of the responses to suspicion seem like scum mac. Wilgy has been saved from being chopped twice. First EoD creature unvoted which helped lead to seanzie being chopped. Wilgy has seemed more towny as the game goes on though so im torn there. LP claim to save alexa? I have to look more into sloonei. I remember the push on c4 but now he ended up flipping town. I still don't think creature is 100 percent free from suspicion as I could see him partnered with tsp or jpic who keeps saying he is the towniest person in the game and I think he is convincing as mafia. For now if I had to make a quick guess I'd say paopan jpic mac-yo wilgy but I'll have to look more into isos as well. I also need to sleep this game has been hurting my brain trying to figure it out.

Please holster tonight

I think mafia are gonna soup tonight just a hunch but I think so, and if u shoot another town we might just straight up lose in one night. I think you shooting tonight can be a game losing move

Okay yeah I see what you're saying here. Yeah I chose targets that were within the POE and it sucks I ended up being wrong. I don't want to be wrong again. I was going to say have falcon check me if there's any doubt but depends if we even live past tonight. You think creature is keeping me alive to lull me into a false sense of security and then soup me?

If ur a vigi then yeah ur being souped regardless

I’m skimming through creatures iso rn and it’s making me think alison/Nutella/early game jpic were correct. Just please don’t shoot tn because I think I can get a solve by this phase or next day phase and I don’t want the game to end before that happens

[sabie12]

People really talked me out of voting Sabie laat day. Don't lynch the town vig, the Ender kill is a towny kill. Well, it is still a towny that got shot and now two by Sabie.

I agree with what others have surmised that Sabie's shot choices were fine, as both Ender and C4 were acceptable choices.

But I'm still thinking that if scum picked roles, they'd want a Vig role if it was offered. And it would make sense that scum might get the Night vig if town are getting a handful of 1x Day vigs.

So I think it is likely Sabie is town, but I don't want to clear her entirely yet.

It is hard to say. If I am a scummy vig, I would shoot scummy townies for the cred.

I agree it's a viable strategy.

Although Sabie could also just shoot towny townies and then keep quiet and not claim the shots. Maybe they feared someone watching/tracking the shots? But if I was a scum Vig I'd probably shoot alexa/nutella/etc and then just not say anything in the thread. I might get caught in the end but it would still be a positive for the scum team.

Just want to respond to this. I would never admit to those shots as mafia. I'd be too afraid of being scrutinized and I would have chosen better targets that wouldn't be potential mischops. Killing ender would have been a bad choice as dizzys teammate.

[ilario]

I have a bad feeling the mafia captain just picked the boring role selection though.

Funnily enough this was the same agenda dizzy was trying to push

[ilario]

Scum can pick roles or players. If I had to pick, I’d definitely pick roles. Seems way more powerful, and picking people just seems like a ehhhh kind of mechanic. But that’s just me.

Picking the mafia team was done once at PerC in a game where the IC was mafia. Yeah. Think about that lol

here and other parts

[ilario]

Here is my case on Creature.

All of Creature's posts so far can be divided into one of three categories: useless fluff, attempting to derpclear himself for silly reasons, and "flame fanning".

Category 1: Useless Fluff

Spoiler: show

Why does the game always start when I'm the most low energy?

Wow this got intense so quick

Is this game by any chance bastard? I didn't check before joining

Who is Neeko?

Would much rather just be mafia in bastard games

I think you are.

I'm not mafia and this makes your push on me even more annoying

These posts go beyond the usual RVS horsing around (although we are well out of RVS now). These are posts that show a clear lack of interest in the progression of the game. His questions are flat, shallow, and in many cases could have been easily answered by glancing at the OP. He is more interested in looking like he is around and engaging with the game than actually being around and engaging with the game. He had a ripe opportunity to engage with me about my push on him, and he responded by going "I'm not mafia, I'm annoyed now, go away". I don't get the sense that he cares whether or not I am town misreading him or scum trying to get him killed, and this is especially concerning because in my last scum game I tried to get him killed early on.

I believe him when he says he is low energy. Take note that being low energy and unable to meaningfully engage with the game is a classic Creature scumtell.

Category 2: Attempting to derpclear himself for silly reasons

Spoiler: show

I want the guilty on nutella to be legit

Is soup kill a thing?

Would much rather just be mafia in bastard games

Wait I think the existence of a mafia captain should almost clear me from ever being picked as mafia this game

Unless you want to argue that I'm 3p here? But would be better to seek for the seven mafia first.

If I was mafia captain I would choose players tbh even if it is not mechanically optimal. I would much rather have an enjoyable team to play with.

I know I'd never be picked by the mafia captain if they chose players over roles

Creature makes an excessive number of posts attempting to insinuate that he is town, or in some way get people to "angleshoot" him as being town due to his lack of knowledge about the game mechanics or the inner workings of the mafia ("is there a soup kill?"). But a town Creature who genuinely wanted to know would just check the OP; asking in thread serves no purpose except to try to get people to falsely read him as town. He is aware that he struggles to gain the trust of the town when he is mafia, and he is cheaply attempting to earn this towncred through derptells and "townslips".

Take note that he is trying to convince the game repeatedly that the mafia captain chose players rather than roles. If he is town, he has no reason to believe that the mafia captain chose players over roles. I, personally, have reason to believe that the mafia captain chose roles. I think nutella is much townier than her scum self would be, and as I have argued, a town nutella implies a town Alexa. I know I am town, and I do not think a mafia captain who picked players would pass over both me and Alexa. So this attempt to convince the town - with no evidence whatsoever - that the mafia captain picked players reeks of agenda-pushing to me.

Finally, I want to highlight this line: "Unless you want to argue that I'm 3p here? But would be better to seek for the seven mafia first." Nobody has accused him of being 3P. It comes completely out of the blue, and reads almost as though he is self-aware of his own scumminess and is trying to hang a lampshade of it. I don't think it's a line that would flow naturally from a townie's mouth.

Category 3: Flame Fanning

Spoiler: show

lol if nutella is salty alexa caught her n0

lol if the alexa/nutella w/w theory is right

early take is that Seanzie is probably wolfing imo

Thought I was the only one seeing it

LinearPoint has been accused of fanning the flames. I think Creature is even more guilty of this sin. In his ISO of 19 posts (at the time I wrote this case), Creature utters provocative lines, egging on the suspicions of townies towards each other, three separate times. They are quoted in the spoilers above. Note that he first eggs on the "Alexa has a red check on nutella" narrative, then switches to "Alexa and nutella are wolves together". These narratives are contradictory. Creature does not have an opinion of his own; he just encourages whatever happens to be the prevailing opinion or thread sentiment at the time. This is strongly opportunistic, and this opportunism is exemplified even further by his agreement with 112 that Seanzie is wolfing. How is Seanzie being wolfy? Why has he not brought up this scumread on Seanzie before, if he thought he was the only one seeing it? In fact, if he thinks Seanzie is a wolf and fooling everyone except him, why would he keep quiet about it until someone else brings it up, at which point he eagerly jumps on the bandwagon? Answer: because he is nakedly taking advantage of 112's suspicion to push Seanzie.

At no point does he contribute to the conversation. He does not add evidence to support any narrative. He does not refute the evidence or points that others have brought up. He does not, in fact, engage with the theories and accusations that have been thrown around the thread. He merely fuels the fire with provocative one-liners and moves on without explaining them.

-

Please vote Creature.

This last paragraph is pretty valid imo and everything else too but esp the last paragraph

[ilario]

ftr I find it hard Paopan's "slip" is legit but I don't really townread them so I'll entertain the idea

I didn't even know Scotty had a good rep as wolf and hence why I asked after Paopan said they would draft alexa and Scotty

If Paopan is a wolf this should somewhat clear them

I'm afraid this push probably leads to nowhere though

Guess I'll votepark on Paopan for a while but for postgame cred I think they're just town

These posts are just bad esp the last “I think paopan is town but I’m gonna votepark them” is just pure wtf for a town to do that’s not named ilario whose tilted

[ilario]

I'm registering that a lot of people say they would have picked me as mafia in a draft. And while that's cute, I would just like to make it clear that I would bitch slap the living shit out of anyone who did that. I think it's pretty widely known I hate to play as mafia lol.

I probably wouldn't draft you for mafia

W/w because it’s just such a weird thing to say to someone out of the blue imo

[ilario]

Do we just lynch Marmot?

sell me

idk

Thought they seemed wolfy and Mac is voting them

what do you find wolfy about them

Very unimpressive for Marmot standards

Vague reasoning like this is usually >rand w

[ilario]

Alison - Wolf?
dyachei - Wolf?
LinearPoint - Wolf?
Marmot - Wolf
NotAnAxehole - Wolf?
Porscha - Wolf?
Scotty - Wolf
Seanzie - Wolf?

Might be three or four wolves here

Very yikes list in hindsight

[ilario]

If I had a vig shot I'd probably trust my shot to dyachei and/or Phil and Gloria

Weird thing to say since he just had dya in his wolf pile

[ilario]

His posting style is just like tsps this game, a lot of one liners that don’t have a lot of nuance or deep thought behind them, no passion in any of their pushes/reads either. This isn’t the Maguncia from last game who was the only town to help hard bury paris. Feels more like the creature who freezes up when he gets hard pushed by ladd, which is kinda like how he froze up when alison pushed him.

Wouldn’t be surprised if him and tsp were having some wolfbro race to see who posts higher

[ilario]

What you all think about Dizzy? I honestly don't know how to independently read them but I feel like there's that slight confidence vibe indicating they might be a hit just like there was that same confidence vibe on Marmot.

Like his two correct pushes of the game just feel so poorly substantiated

Convidence vibe? Like fr???

Feels made up to me!

[Master Radishes]

I was suss of creature in d1/beginning of D2 but was told he's hitting his town meta so I left it.

[Master Radishes]

I agree there are criticisms that are valid but also I think a lot of what you're painting as scummy is more style/personality based?

[ilario]

I don't believe the wolfteam is a team of potatoes. Behind three or four wolves making the game seem too easy to town there are always three or four other wolves deeping the shit out of the rest of the game.

I suppose we're now gonna kill a lot of unknown LHFs who will all just flip town

wolfy seeing that 90% of his pushes have been on lfh potatoes

[ilario]

I agree there are criticisms that are valid but also I think a lot of what you're painting as scummy is more style/personality based?

yeah its style/personality based

the style is called randing scum
and the personality is of someone who randed scum

[ilario]

I was suss of creature in d1/beginning of D2 but was told he's hitting his town meta so I left it.

scum can get tilted too

[ilario]

Fuck this

[VOTE: Seanzie] aubergine

Let's lynch people who have been actually wolfy for fuck's sake

Seanzie is someone I can see wolves picking

I won't oppose the policy on NAA tbh

It just sucks we'd be 1/6 D1

c4 is not TMIing

I was pretty aware NAA would fake red checks here

Like the sudden snap vote onto seanzie who was obvtown after alexa shot alison is just bad

In the second quote he wants people who have actually been Wolfy, but if you look for seanzie in his iso prior to that there’s almost no mention of him. And he says to kill wolfy people but in the subsequent posts at the same time won’t oppose to a policy on NAA despite thinking naa is town? Like fr??

And he wants seanzie just because he’s someone wolves can pick despite in the earlier posts creature thinks it’s more likely that mafia chose roles over players. That’s his only justification for pushing seanzie, “he’s someone wolves can pick”. Like no, that’s not style talking or personality it’s just a wolf

[ilario]

I can see Mac and creature being a team, tbh I probably wouldn’t have looked into creature until tomorrow but his comment about me ignoring creature pinged me like crazy and felt like a wolf trying to tie a town to his wolfbro

[ilario]

My desire to kill NAA is purely policy/to punish. We're now forced to find wolf so we don't snowball into a wolf stomp just like that Avatar game did.

"we're forced to find a wolf but i wanna waste a vote to policy a town"

[ilario]

That’s enough for now imma take a break but yeah creature just a wolf imo

@nutella @Alison you wwre right d1 on this and I was wrong, my bad

[falcon45ca]

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;

What rough Beast slouches towards Bethlehem to be born

[Sloonei]

If Creature is mafia, he has undergone a transformation since I last played with him. Granted, there has been a long enough gap for that to be possible.

[ilario]

If Creature is mafia, he has undergone a transformation since I last played with him. Granted, there has been a long enough gap for that to be possible.

Yeah he played out of his mind this game regardless

But on close inspection a lot of his post count is over inflated

He tends to say alota the same things over and continually asks very similar questions with little follow up

[ilario]

i like this list for the most part

i'm at leaning town on creature and lp at this point, would swap in porscha and.... idk guillo?

I don't think Porscha. Maybe I'm missing something with Guillo and I just think I can read him while I actually can't. I probably haven't payed too much attention to his posts after I decided he was town tbh

Can someone explain why Creature is town?

In his scum game, I seem to recall him pushing a much harder agenda and was a lot stiffer in how he interacted. In the town game I have seen, he just seems detached from everything and that reminds me a little bit of that. It's mainly meta which isn't strong.

Only scummy thing I remember was the marmot interaction I had with him

It frustrates me that he doesn't explain why he has the reads he has. This is not something I think is normal for him?

I just tried to explain why Marmot felt wolfy at the time. I'm not very good at translating my feelings into academical words though.

read dizzys post and macs post in this quote chain

feels like w/w/w with creature