The Syndicate

[mention]NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME[/mention] can you link to a towngame where you said you don't engage with your scumreads or similar?

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:10 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:04 pm

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:02 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:00 pm Actually though, you are either faking a scumlean on me because you're scum, or your magic nutellameter is broken again. You haven't elaborated on your read of me at all, can you do that? And also explain your scumlean of LC while you're at it.

It's gut and fear over misreading you all game.

Like read half a game -> misread you -> start new game and read 2/3rds of it -> scumread you for fear of being fooled again.

But seriously I'm feeling bad vibes from your pushes. I don't see anything that looks dishonestly though, which is your tell. Idk. I really don't know what to do with you. I ought to just leave you alone and let the read come at its own pace.

Lol ok.

What specifically about my "pushes" has felt bad? You seemed to agree with me at least partially on Nanook. What about the Hyena stuff?

Nothing! Nothing specific. That's why I'm not actually lynching you today. Just like a tingling sensation. Like spider sense if someone is trying to hit you with a pie but not murder you. I'd understand if someone thought that was a fake thing to say but idgaf.

I agree with you on Nanook. I feel like talking to a player I have caught always always always makes them look worse and me look better. And a lot of the time, talking to a player I incorrectly suspect leads to me turning around my read. I get that Nanook has a different play style than some folks but I feel like I have a decent idea of how he plays (like just instinctively knowing that he'd fake a red peek) and I feel like I'd have picked up on the idea that he doesn't talk to his scumreads. That's such a weird play quirk.

I've kinda skimmed your Hyena stuff because he feels pure and I love his avatar and I want him to be town. I haven't personally felt pinged by anything he says. Disclaimer: I've only seen town Hyena.

Cool cool, good stuff.

Good stuff?

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:12 pm Good stuff?

I just really liked the post and vibed with a lot of what you said, even the Hyena stuff.

Like I've never seen scum Hyena before either so maybe I'm full of shit?

I waffle between thinking Hyena and Nanook are teammates and thinking probably only one of them is scum, and then I waffle on which one. Right now I'm in a wave of thinking Nanook is worse and Hyena is better but that could change any moment lol.

I've got some swirling thoughts about DDL and juliets mixed in there as well. I'd love to hear more from both of them and especially about each other and Hyena/Nanook.

Holy fuck I didn’t say I don’t talk to my scumreads

I said I don’t talk to people as if they’re mafia.

Like jfc people

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:20 pm Holy fuck I didn’t say I don’t talk to my scumreads

I said I don’t talk to people as if they’re mafia.

Like jfc people

I understood that the entire time. Everything I said was in reference to that. I engage with suspects specifically addressing them as suspects and what I said and what jack said still holds.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:11 pm @NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME can you link to a towngame where you said you don't engage with your scumreads or similar?

No. Because that isn’t what I fucking said

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:21 pm

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:20 pm Holy fuck I didn’t say I don’t talk to my scumreads

I said I don’t talk to people as if they’re mafia.

Like jfc people

I understood that the entire time. Everything I said was in reference to that. I engage with suspects specifically addressing them as suspects and what I said and what jack said still holds.

That is clearly and patently bullshit. I’ll pull quotes tonight when I’m not on my phone.

I mean why would I treat a suspect as town anyway? If I'm not sure about them and want to sort them out, sure I give them the benefit of the doubt. If someone is my top suspect, yeah, I'm going to treat them as if they're mafia. That doesn't mean that engagement can't be productive, both for those directly involved and for observers.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:20 pm Holy fuck I didn’t say I don’t talk to my scumreads

I said I don’t talk to people as if they’re mafia.

Like jfc people

I knew that. I was just testing you.

Can you like to you saying that?

The idea that you assume everyone is town is weird too. Like...the whole game is about trying to figure out who is a wolf and if you assume nobody is a wolf *fart noises*

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:05 pm

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:03 pm Like regardless of my alignment, I’m going to talk to people as if they’re town. Otherwise what’s the point of talking to them at all. SRing me for that is almost as bad as “nanook can’t SR anyone!” which is also demonstrably, patently false.

So yeah, do better, regardless of your alignment.

You've literally said the same two sentences three times now. I don't understand them. Why the fuck would you not engage people you suspect? You're doing it right now, no? Or not, because you don't actually suspect me.

Okay I will concede that in this early part of the conversation I may have misinterpreted it, but I quickly understood the distinction you were making and my point still stood.

I can't keep myself from making references to like the three little pigs or 300 or whatever. It's not relatable.

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:10 pm

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:08 pm It’s only bizarre if you completely ignore what I’m actually saying and twist it entirely differently

I say this with all seriousness, actually read what I’m saying, until then fuck off.

And I genuinely hope you’re Mafia cause jfc if you’re doing this as town.

Yes I get what you said. But I talk to people as if they're mafia all the time and it produces valuable thread content.

Here I clearly state that I understood what you meant and still believed in my argument.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:23 pm

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:20 pm Holy fuck I didn’t say I don’t talk to my scumreads

I said I don’t talk to people as if they’re mafia.

Like jfc people

I knew that. I was just testing you.

Can you like to you saying that?

The idea that you assume everyone is town is weird too. Like...the whole game is about trying to figure out who is a wolf and if you assume nobody is a wolf *fart noises*

I think he's gonna get mad that you're twisting his words again here lol. He suspects people but still treats them as if they're town. That's the distinction he's making. I am holding that it is still worthwhile to engage with someone while treating them as scum.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:23 pm

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:20 pm Holy fuck I didn’t say I don’t talk to my scumreads

I said I don’t talk to people as if they’re mafia.

Like jfc people

I knew that. I was just testing you.

Can you like to you saying that?

The idea that you assume everyone is town is weird too. Like...the whole game is about trying to figure out who is a wolf and if you assume nobody is a wolf *fart noises*

Yeah I didn’t say I assume nobody is a wolf either.

Ok, let’s say that I think someone is 90% mafia. If I talk to them or engage in thread with them, I’m going to do so as if I’m in that 10% world where they’re town. That doesn’t mean I no longer think they’re scum, but I find this approach considerably more productive. Especially since my reads on most people are roughly rand, meaning that most of the people I talk to are, in fact, town.

Besides that, it makes for a much more enjoyable game imo.


I can link to a game later where I talked to a scumread as if they were town (and continued scumreading them).

Yeah, do that last thingie.

I’m not telling anyone to play the way I do, I’m just annoyed at “I don’t play/think that way so you shouldn’t either” reads. They’re fucking obnoxious.

[mention]NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME[/mention] here's the thing. Many's the time I have engaged with a suspect, in a way such that I was treating them as scum/assuming they were scum, and because of that interaction actually ended up changing my mind about them. So don't try to tell me it's never productive. I understand if it's not the way you play, I also like to give people the benefit of the doubt wherever possible and treat people as if they're town whenever it feels reasonable and productive to do so. I'm not trying to shit on you for saying that's the way you play. But when you say things like "otherwise what's the point?" it feels rude and as if you are trying to shit on the way others play. I hope that clears up why I was set off by the way you said that. Let's move on now.

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:31 pm @NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME here's the thing. Many's the time I have engaged with a suspect, in a way such that I was treating them as scum/assuming they were scum, and because of that interaction actually ended up changing my mind about them. So don't try to tell me it's never productive. I understand if it's not the way you play, I also like to give people the benefit of the doubt wherever possible and treat people as if they're town whenever it feels reasonable and productive to do so. I'm not trying to shit on you for saying that's the way you play. But when you say things like "otherwise what's the point?" it feels rude and as if you are trying to shit on the way others play. I hope that clears up why I was set off by the way you said that. Let's move on now.

It’s not productive or fun FOR ME. You can do whatever the fuck you want

Also “let’s move on now when it’s convenient for me” doesn’t work for me

Yes, I get that now. I just found your dismissal of it rather abrasive. I think we both took our differences too personally and I apologize for putting a spin on it that wasn't there in your intention.


I still suspect you though

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:05 pm Remember when I was good at reading LC? That was when I thought passive LC was baddie LC.

I do really need him to do more pushing @Long Con

Even my Nanook read is pretty gut based. And my townleans area almost all based on one thing for each player. The exception is Speedchuck, who I am nodding along with everything he's said. He's never been mafia when I felt that way. He's been antitown neutral tho. Regardless, if he's town, he'll manage to defend wolves and look like the perfectly fitting puzzle piece and then I'll turn the piece upside down and townread him.

I'll come around. And that's not fake news.

juliets wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:55 pm I just read back through @Long Con because of 112's read on him. I don't see anything that said "scum" and he ended up voting Nanook with 112 and sig (and nutella but we don't know her alignment at this point). I believe him when he said he didn't know Nanook was voting for him and that was a town look. I would feel a little better if he would answer my question about his gut read of Nanook. Maybe today.

lots of linki

Maybe today. I don't know the answer right now. I might be able to rekindle the feeling and share it with you if I go back over Nanook's posts. That's not right now though, sorry.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:06 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:05 pm

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:03 pm Like regardless of my alignment, I’m going to talk to people as if they’re town. Otherwise what’s the point of talking to them at all. SRing me for that is almost as bad as “nanook can’t SR anyone!” which is also demonstrably, patently false.

So yeah, do better, regardless of your alignment.

You've literally said the same two sentences three times now. I don't understand them. Why the fuck would you not engage people you suspect? You're doing it right now, no? Or not, because you don't actually suspect me.

Way to twist my words. I didn’t say I don’t talk to people I suspect, I said I don’t talk to people as if they’re mafia.. There’s no point in it!

Treating everyone as hostile, as if they are Mafia, is a great way to hunt. I don't know why you would say otherwise.

Long Con wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:38 pm

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:06 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:05 pm

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:03 pm Like regardless of my alignment, I’m going to talk to people as if they’re town. Otherwise what’s the point of talking to them at all. SRing me for that is almost as bad as “nanook can’t SR anyone!” which is also demonstrably, patently false.

So yeah, do better, regardless of your alignment.

You've literally said the same two sentences three times now. I don't understand them. Why the fuck would you not engage people you suspect? You're doing it right now, no? Or not, because you don't actually suspect me.

Way to twist my words. I didn’t say I don’t talk to people I suspect, I said I don’t talk to people as if they’re mafia.. There’s no point in it!

Treating everyone as hostile, as if they are Mafia, is a great way to hunt. I don't know why you would say otherwise.

I don't really want to stoke these embers further but just one more thing-- regardless of what Nanook feels is valuable or prioritizes in his style, I'm not sure I totally believe that he 100% never engages with someone assuming they are scum. I bet I could find examples of him doing so if I looked. He just doesn't think of it as something he does because he generally tries not to.

I mean I’m sure I do sometimes, I just try not to.

Ok I'm back.

[mention]Hyena[/mention] thanks for your detailed explanation and answering Nutella's follow up questions which mirrored what I would have asked if I'd been here. I didn't see anything up to the voting MR and putting DDL in your town core that looked scummy to me, and really my basic reaction to the latter was more "what the hell is going on".

What I can see is we play very different games, at least at EOD. I might vote for someone other than my top scum read to save another person but that person would have to be someone I had a solid town read on. And the person I voted for would have to be at least null if not a light scum read, i.e., they couldn't be a town read. I think when you say "town core" it means something different than what I mean which just added to my confusion. So for now I'm going to chalk it up to you play very differently from me, which means I may have to ask you at times for details about why you did what you did. I can see what nutella means by your behavior could mean you are scum but my thought is if you are scum with Nanook you wouldn't have been as obvious about the save.

[mention]nutella[/mention] let me read through all of Nanook and I'll give you my opinion. I don't want to judge based on this most recent disagreement. I have never played with bad Nanook by the way, but intend to look at the Wire if I can find the time to see what he looks like there.

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:41 pm Also I don't think Hyena and I are that different? I feel a kinship with his style in general

This is what I thought/felt, too, though admittedly, it feels like our play styles this game are more different than they usually are? Like, I feel like you've been way more aggressive(??) this game than I remember you being. Maybe aggressive isn't the right word, though.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:53 pm Let's just lynch Nanook and Nutella and call it a day.

lol, I was actually thinking about this earlier, but I still like Nutella and am still waffling on Nanook. I don't think they are w/w though, at least.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:10 pmI've kinda skimmed your Hyena stuff because he feels pure and I love his avatar and I want him to be town. I haven't personally felt pinged by anything he says. Disclaimer: I've only seen town Hyena.

<3

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:14 pm Like I've never seen scum Hyena before either so maybe I'm full of shit?

To be fair, saving Nanook from getting more votes is definitely something I would have done if we were both mafia. However, I also wouldn't consider bussing him (or at least show that I'm open to voting him) right now either if we were. I can link you to some of my scum games if you'd like!

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:16 pm I've got some swirling thoughts about DDL and juliets mixed in there as well. I'd love to hear more from both of them and especially about each other and Hyena/Nanook.

Just in case I haven't mentioned it recently, I still think Juliets is town. DDL feels like town (I wouldn't have invited him into my towncore if he hadn't), but I admit I can be wrong there.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:24 pm

Master Radishes has been assassinated. He was People Who Feel Compelled to be on Tik Tok.

Like those who copy different dance moves, you may steal any person’s role during the Day, but you must use it that Night. You may not elect to refrain from using it. You need the attention. You will die without the attention.

You are mafia.

Carry on.

Oh shit.

I think Jack is confirmed town now?

Hyena wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:29 pm I think Jack is confirmed town now?

Unless, like, mafia was doing some major FPSing and decided to use Radish's ability on their own partner?

Hyena wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:22 am Actually, you know what?

[VOTE: TonyStarkPrime] aubergine

PS: I thought you didn't like it when people didn't call out their votes. :P

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:27 am

Hyena wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:15 am Hyenas aren't dogs. :P

Holy crap you're right. I learned something today.

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:29 am Just for that I'm going to vote with you.

[VOTE: TonyStarkPrime] aubergine

Okay. Maybe I don't want to vote Tony anymore.

[VOTE: No one] aubergine

Uh what

Wait

What the fuck

I quit.

If MR was scum I don't believe anything anymore. I have no beliefs. I am an apostate of the school of mafia. I give up.

But also wtf just happened

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:38 pm But also wtf just happened

A day vig?

I am honestly speechless. My MR townread was one of the strongest convictions I had. I honestly have no idea what to think of this game now. I'm at square one.

I guess not square one since now we have a red flip and can do some associative reads. I'm not mentally ready for that though this hasn't sunk in

I'm not caught up but..

Good.

I'm beginning to trust my gut a little more.

Hahahahahaha

Get wrekt nutella

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:21 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:19 pm

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:18 pm I think he just likes playing with me and prioritized that over TRs.

If it's just that, or some combination of that and giving you another phase to prove yourself, I guess I can understand that but I still find it sketchy

It’s literally the same as “I haven’t played with MP in a long time so I’m not TKing him D1.”

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:21 pm You know, unless player B is my scumbuddy.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:53 pm Let's just lynch Nanook and Nutella and call it a day.

Hear hear!

speedchuck wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:46 pm I'm not caught up but..

Good.

I'm beginning to trust my gut a little more.

I still trust you lol. I can't be wrong about both my top townreads and anyway my confidence in you was even higher than my confidence in MR before.


I need to reevaluate a lot of people though. Certainly Hyena, DDL, Nanook, to begin with. I should probably start by ISOing MR and approaching this rationally once the WTF feeling fades a bit.