GY!BE Mafia [E.N.D.]

[timmer]

Which means... what? lol

[timmer]

Oh, ignore me, I've just gotten to a post where eMP breaks it down, s'all good.

[Scotty]

Hi.

JJJ is bad.



If anyone wants me, I'll be listening to REM

Hi Scotty.

No. What's your beef?

No beef, mostly tofu

You see, I'm on a special diet of only civs and you aren't on the menu

Which means... what? lol

I just made that up. I actually have no idea what PoE means in Mafia terms. I'm sorry.

[timmer]

Well, I've OT talked enough.

Although recently I've uncovered that POE naturally describes my recently developed playstyle because I much more easily find town reads than I do baddie reads, I've never formally used POE before.

I'll be using POE exclusively this game, and I'd like to approach it both as an individual (with my rainbow lists like I usually do) but as a group this time.

Who wants to join me?

tbh what does this mean tbh

Stated as simply as possible, POE ("process of elimination") takes the typical strategy of a town player (to hunt for members of the mafia) and flips it on its head (instead hunt for fellow townies).

The theory behind POE is that town can win due to the fact that it has a majority, and if members of the town can collectively use POE to clear enough of each other from consideration of being mafia, then the only players that haven't been cleared are the mafia.

A player can approach POE on an individual level, like I've usually been doing more so these days in the beginning of the game when I state "here are 5 town reads", etc., and then when it comes time to vote I just vote among the players I haven't found any reason to call town.

Multiple players can approach POE on a group level with specific intent of using POE (something I have not yet participated in), and assuming those players can town-clear each other, they will then work with each other collectively to cross-examine each other's town reads to develop a consensus suspect pool. For example, if there are 10 players, and I (as Player #1) have town reads on Players #3, 5, 7, and 8, and Players #3 and #5 who also are using POE have town reads on Players #2, 4, 5, and 9, then that leaves a consensus suspect pool of only Players #6 and #10, since neither of those players are being town read by any of the players utilizing POE. All of the POE-utilizing players would then decide on either #6 or #10 for their votes.

You just blew my mind. And yet... wouldn't it be ridiculously exploitable? It would only take one civ-reading baddie to infiltrate the cluster of POE players and lead them astray, no?

Also, wouldn't this provide the baddies with a narrowed pool of targets?

Also also, isn't it sort of a way to "go after the absent/quiet players" without the stigma of having to say you are going after quiet/absent players, which some people don't like?

I'm so intrigued by this.

[Sloonei]

What the hell does POE mean? Am I that far out of the loop?

Process of Elimination

[triceratopzeuhl]

Day 0 and already hunting baddies


wow so many role secrets this game

also I can't tell if my brain is just a brick or if whether or not there was supposed to be any useful info in the first host post/recording

[Dom]

can y'all take a cill pill

[timmer]

also I can't tell if my brain is just a brick or if whether or not there was supposed to be any useful info in the first host post/recording

I think it was all just awesomeness, especially that "so it begins" at the end!

[JaggedJimmyJay]

No beef, mostly tofu

You see, I'm on a special diet of only civs and you aren't on the menu

Okay.

Why don't I satisfy your diet?

[Tangrowth]

Spoiler: show

I am townreading that highlighted bit. That sentiment is constructed in a manner that bluntly stated his beef; at face value, I believe him. Further, I like his last paragraph, because as a member of the mafia he could have easily used this conversation to derail or antagonize as a way to manipulate the thread, but he left it alone.

In summary, INH noted my declaration to use POE, noted a fair criticism of its approach in this game, then after engaging with me a bit further on it, clearly stated his beef with it, that he will be using a different method, and was willing to leave it at that. I see no nefarious avenue for the way he approached this situation, only a fellow member of the town sincerely expressing his concerns and approach to the game.

It's not much, but I think already the strategy conversation at least generated a potentially useful read. What do you think?

I think INH completely misinterpreted/misrepresented my perspective (I won't even be using much PoE myself in this game, he assumed the contrary based on I don't know what). That happens in every game we play together though so shrug. We seem to have some core inability to understand one another that has never ceased.

I think his stance on the issue suits his meta, which is a decent enough look so early in the game that there's nothing better to say.

Call it me getting too emotionally-invested in mafia, or me being simply too stubbornly self-righteous, but I genuinely despise getting mislynched as a civilian. Yes, I know nobody actually enjoys it, but I sometimes feel physically ill if I'm getting slaughtered in the thread for reasons I believe to be idiotic. That usually causes me to get worked up, usually to my own detriment. See: Max, Mad (where I ironically had a role where if I was lynched, I lost my ability to vote, but was more or less proven town. This lead to me leading a miserable existence surrounded by people who tried quite hard to lynch me, which caused me to randomize my vote and occasionally pop in to watch the fireworks, and beg to be nightkilled. Not one of my finer showings.)

I personally find game theory and the different permutations and situations it examines absolutely fascinating. Inventive and crazy game mechanics are why I play mafia- not because I'm good at reading people. This is why I'm trying to stick to mostly heavily experimental and, for lack of a better word, crazy games. (My favorite game of all time is Oblique Strategies, a bizarre lark of a game where I managed to convince members of a team I had to have dead to win to publicly out themselves and submit themselves to be lynched. So that tells you what my idea of a good mafia game is.)

The real reason I don't like POE is because I deeply fear a situation where I haven't been towncleared by the Supatown Collective Consciousness, and due to good ol' Process of Elimination have to be lynched. Unfortunately, my playing style is too non-showy and lacking bold play, and the votes pile up in my direction. No matter how much I scream and yell in the thread, I'm still seen as playing inferior to other people, and am told for my efforts that I should try harder at trying to catch baddies instead of bothering to defend myself, a concept which I find intrinsically offensive.

It's just far easier for me to see ways in which POE doesn't work, and many ways in which it could directly screw me over than it is for me to see ways in which it works perfectly.

Part of that is because I find declaring someone a civilian and someone a member of the mafia equally difficult. Unfortunately, my brain is inclined towards seeing people who are nice and respectful towards me, and play the same way, vote the same way, and act the same way as me as civilians, which is something I deliberately to counteract by being very apprehensive to give an actual townread. So the fact that MP has already decided to townread me completely confuzzles me.

In my reckoning, townreads should be under as much if not more scrutiny than scumreads, and are equally unreliable. I've been wrong many a time as a civilian about who I think is mafia, and I can only imagine that if I, personally, were to embrace the POE strategy, I would have an equal margin of error. But, if I misread one civilian as mafia, and get them lynched, that equals 1 dead civilian. If I misread one mafia as civilian, and I continue lynching people I don't view as civillians, that's far more possible net civ losses.

To bring this rambling discursive mini essay back to something approaching a cogent point, let me futher illustrate the quibble I have with this post from 3J, which I brushed over earlier:

I think INH is right that a cooperative PoE effort in a game where townies must survive to win is inherently challenged, because in games like this town reads are generally harder to come by. However, the only reason that's true is that townies are more hesitant to put forth a visible, vocal effort for fear of standing out and becoming kill targets. That problem is resolved if every townie puts forth a visible, vocal effort.

Maybe that's a pipe dream, but I would encourage the townies out there to still make a concerted effort to play for the town win condition as much as their own survival. To focus too much on survival ensures that the baddies benefit maximally from these rules as I would theorize they typically do. I think it's the #1 reason town won games so infrequently on this site until recently (as that rule has appeared less often).

Rico, please don't interpret this as a complaint. It's just advice.

Nobody, except for maybe Vompatti, (sorry vomps, luv u) signs up for a game not expecting to play to the best of their abilities. But, the fact of the matter is that people play differently. I'm skittish. I dislike jumping the gun, am apprehensive to make reads, and like to sit back and observe the thread instead of directly instigating it. That doesn't really jive with this:

When I say I want townies to play for the town win condition, that means I want to see their reads. I want to see their suspicions. I want to see their cases.

Players who get very intensely into the game, like 3J, have no problem coming up with reads, cases, and suspicions. Those who are not necessarily as forthcoming with reads, cases, and suspicions could then be seen as not furthering the civ cause. Then, they have less evidence of their "civvieness" than their more post-happy counterparts. That's where POE breaks down for me.

You'd never see a player like (sorry to keep using you as an example; it's just too easy) Vompatti advocate for the use of POE. It's usually players who contribute heavily to the thread, and are confident in their ability to do so in the future.

It feels like a system that directly benefits the super active and punishes the lesser active, both of which being completely irrelevant to actual alignment. And stuff like this:

I want to town read you and Golden, but I cannot justify that quite yet

just makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

Anywho.

Is any of this relevant to GY!BE Mafia, and who I personally suspect? Fuck no. Hell, 3J is saying that he isn't using POE, which makes a large part of this essay irrelevant. But I feel like there's been some friction between me and 3J specifically, who continues to think my meta is contrarian gnat, and may try to lynch me the second I agree with him on something. It's a Jane Austen, socialite ladies slighting each other at dinner parties kind of friction, but still. I just wanted to vomit my thought out on this subject, just to get them clearly out there. After all, I'm just a soul whose intentions are good, oh lord, please don't let me be misunderstood.

I get really emotionally invested in these games too, INH. Bring it in, bud.

As a member of the town there's nothing more disheartening and frustrating than being mislynched, and it happens to me often, so I understand. I would argue though that townies getting mislynched is always going to happen regardless of whether players are using POE or just hunting for the mafia. But I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree here as well I think.

[Tangrowth]

Conclusion: I think Wilgy is tinfoil reading me as mafia because he's afraid that I'm mafia.

So... you are townreading Wilgy?

Yeah, I think I am.

An alternative conclusion for Wilgy's behavior is that he is fabricating a mafia read on me to seem as though he's contributing and throw some shade on the Syndicate's high talking magnet of shade (I just now thought of that and it sounds cool, we should call common lynches "magnets of shade"), which would explain why it's (at least to my eyes) an illogical suspicion.

I'm letting my gut take the wheel for the duration, however, and my gut is saying WILGY IS SINCERE!

My brain says fuck that guy, I DON'T KNOW, NOT ENOUGH INFORMATION, but I'm not listening to that guy right now.

[Tangrowth]

Usually I'm all for tons of chatter out of the gate, but I'm too tired to read 140 posts right now, so you can all gonto hell.

You're probably not the only one that feels that way. I think we let our dialogue drag too long and I am going to chill out for the rest of Day 0. This is check-in time, not blow up the thread time.

That changes when the lynching starts.

I'm cool with this too. Sorry to give you all tons of shit to read right off the bat. I can chill for a bit. Given how that time I goofed off yesterday anyway, I won't be around nearly as much today or tomorrow.

[Tangrowth]

What the hell does POE mean? Am I that far out of the loop?

This is POE. I'm sorry I didn't explain it right out of the gate, but I was trying to see how some people (INH included) would respond.

[Tangrowth]

Oh, ignore me, I've just gotten to a post where eMP breaks it down, s'all good.

This is why I should catch up first maybe instead of posting as I catch up, but I don't care.

[Tangrowth]

Day 0 and already hunting baddies


wow so many role secrets this game

also I can't tell if my brain is just a brick or if whether or not there was supposed to be any useful info in the first host post/recording

Good to see you, Trice! . Can't even remember the last game we played together.

The recording is just to set the tone I believe, but it's awesome.

[Tangrowth]

Spoiler: show

Well, I've OT talked enough.

Although recently I've uncovered that POE naturally describes my recently developed playstyle because I much more easily find town reads than I do baddie reads, I've never formally used POE before.

I'll be using POE exclusively this game, and I'd like to approach it both as an individual (with my rainbow lists like I usually do) but as a group this time.

Who wants to join me?

tbh what does this mean tbh

Stated as simply as possible, POE ("process of elimination") takes the typical strategy of a town player (to hunt for members of the mafia) and flips it on its head (instead hunt for fellow townies).

The theory behind POE is that town can win due to the fact that it has a majority, and if members of the town can collectively use POE to clear enough of each other from consideration of being mafia, then the only players that haven't been cleared are the mafia.

A player can approach POE on an individual level, like I've usually been doing more so these days in the beginning of the game when I state "here are 5 town reads", etc., and then when it comes time to vote I just vote among the players I haven't found any reason to call town.

Multiple players can approach POE on a group level with specific intent of using POE (something I have not yet participated in), and assuming those players can town-clear each other, they will then work with each other collectively to cross-examine each other's town reads to develop a consensus suspect pool. For example, if there are 10 players, and I (as Player #1) have town reads on Players #3, 5, 7, and 8, and Players #3 and #5 who also are using POE have town reads on Players #2, 4, 5, and 9, then that leaves a consensus suspect pool of only Players #6 and #10, since neither of those players are being town read by any of the players utilizing POE. All of the POE-utilizing players would then decide on either #6 or #10 for their votes.

You just blew my mind. And yet... wouldn't it be ridiculously exploitable? It would only take one civ-reading baddie to infiltrate the cluster of POE players and lead them astray, no?

Also, wouldn't this provide the baddies with a narrowed pool of targets?

Also also, isn't it sort of a way to "go after the absent/quiet players" without the stigma of having to say you are going after quiet/absent players, which some people don't like?

I'm so intrigued by this.

I know, right? It blew my mind when I first found out about it by watching the MU Championship games (Golden's game in particular). They used it to incredible success over there too; it was really pretty epic. Since then I've desperately tried to learn more about it; I talked to Jay about a bit and did some research. It seems it's a relatively widespread approach to playing the game, even if not the norm.

There is potential for a mafia member to infiltrate the POE, for sure, and that's the biggest threat to the method, but that's why it's so key that all of the people in the POE keep re-assessing each other and their town reads. Especially as the game progresses, it is imperative that an increasingly high threshold be met for people to maintain their town reads in the POE. It forces any mafia member who has infiltrated the POE to keep up the act well enough to convince everyone else.

Regarding a narrowed pool of targets, I presume you are arguing the same thing I've heard to argue against rainbow lists (that they 'put targets' on consensus townies). That is true;, if Player #5 is being town-cleared by literally everyone in the POE, for example, then the mafia have much stronger incentive to kill that player than Players #6 or #10, who aren't being town-cleared by any member of the POE. However, there is a convincing counterargument to this that I have since adopted as my defense for rainbow lists. When you strip the game of mafia down, and this is why POE naturally better fits very simple setups, you can view areas of townie weakness and strength and make the following argument. Townies have no BTSC or information, but their strength is in numbers, which is where POE says "ah-ha! let's use these numbers to our advantage!". The mafia has information, voting power, etc., but their strength is in the NK. Why the NK is the biggest strength for the mafia is that they can literally dictate how the game progresses by killing any player of their choice. But if a bunch of players using POE have forced the mafia's hand into killing, say, Player #5, that eliminates the mafia's strategic advantage of being able to kill anyone. It effectively means that the POE, as a thread, are dictating how the mafia kill, instead of the mafia. Instead of leaving the decision up to the mafia, the mafia must kill consensus town-reads in the POE, thereby legitimizing their cleared statuses. So I think you can turn this argument around on its head and see a benefit to 'target painting', because if townies are 100% transparent with each other, the benefits of being able to better read each other, potentially cooperate, etc. greatly outweigh the cost of painting the target on a supatownie's back (given I don't really see it as a cost).

POE also can put inordinate pressure on quiet players, yes, which I think fuels some of the grievances that INH was expressing, so if you have a batch of players that are by very nature players who do not like to play transparently, then POE might hit some roadblocks. However, seasoned and effective users of POE can still snag town reads out of players who contribute less if there is a nugget of quality to be found amid the lower quantity. The MU Championship made me a believer here.

To sort of wrap up my last two points there, think of group POE as a way for a group of players (ideally all townies, but there may be at least one mafia who sneaked in there) to crowd around the non-cleared players and say "'dance!" with loaded guns pointed at them. The non-cleared players then have much stronger pressure on them to display how they are town than they would if no one was using POE, especially if the POE is mostly or entirely accurate, because if you extend that analogy to how the game usually progresses, only one player usually will say "dance!" with a gun loaded to another player once they've built a case or something, and then other players may join in if they find the case compelling (there's a lot more just standing around).

The theory behind why POE is better than hunting for the mafia lies on one assumption: that when you apply increasingly high levels of pressure to players to make reads, explain their reads, etc., the mafia eventually will either stop being able to dance or they will trip and slip up and get shot because they have to manufacture their every opinion, whereas even a low-contributing townie can display the town spark necessary to keep dancing because all of their thoughts are genuine. POE understands that the only way that townies can win the game is if they can tell apart the townies from the mafia, but it says, look, it's really hard to see who might slip up, especially with some solid mafia-aligned players in there. But if you instead just focus on the players that are dancing their heart away, you can increasingly zero in on those who are failing to impress, and then keep applying more pressure, etc., and you don't have to wait for someone to trip and fall to find all of the mafia.

If you take away that assumption, then POE is worthless, which is why POE naturally isn't as effective in more complex games, particularly those with two mafia teams (because mafia can genuinely hunt for other mafia, etc.)

[DrWilgy]

No beef, mostly tofu

You see, I'm on a special diet of only civs and you aren't on the menu

Okay.

Why don't I satisfy your diet?

Because you are actually antlantian.

Good morning everyone!

You could've just stated that you don't know.

Sure, I suppose I could have, but I'm naturally notoriously verbose when I speak and type, and I apparently intend on keeping it that way.

Staaaaaahp

It makes me baddie read you.

It's too early in the game for my gut to be whispering sweet nothings.

@MP, your read and understanding is accurate. I would like to bring to attention the underlined regarding the matter.

This doesn't change my gut read of you, but in regards to voting for you, you have convinced me that I want to keep you alive... With scrutiny...

[birdwithteeth11]

Still catching up, but I had a question about this post.

Well, I've OT talked enough.

Although recently I've uncovered that POE naturally describes my recently developed playstyle because I much more easily find town reads than I do baddie reads, I've never formally used POE before.

I'll be using POE exclusively this game, and I'd like to approach it both as an individual (with my rainbow lists like I usually do) but as a group this time.

Who wants to join me?

tbh what does this mean tbh

Stated as simply as possible, POE ("process of elimination") takes the typical strategy of a town player (to hunt for members of the mafia) and flips it on its head (instead hunt for fellow townies).

The theory behind POE is that town can win due to the fact that it has a majority, and if members of the town can collectively use POE to clear enough of each other from consideration of being mafia, then the only players that haven't been cleared are the mafia.

A player can approach POE on an individual level, like I've usually been doing more so these days in the beginning of the game when I state "here are 5 town reads", etc., and then when it comes time to vote I just vote among the players I haven't found any reason to call town.

Multiple players can approach POE on a group level with specific intent of using POE (something I have not yet participated in), and assuming those players can town-clear each other, they will then work with each other collectively to cross-examine each other's town reads to develop a consensus suspect pool. For example, if there are 10 players, and I (as Player #1) have town reads on Players #3, 5, 7, and 8, and Players #3 and #5 who also are using POE have town reads on Players #2, 4, 5, and 9, then that leaves a consensus suspect pool of only Players #6 and #10, since neither of those players are being town read by any of the players utilizing POE. All of the POE-utilizing players would then decide on either #6 or #10 for their votes.

I get your argument for a group-based POE as a way to potentially eliminate civilians from the candidate pool. And maybe I'm just being a dunderhead here. But wouldn't your strategy not be very effective from a short-term perspective (I.E. only one or two days' worth of read from multiple people vs. a longer period of time)? I agree it could work in the long-term, but isn't there an opportunity cost early on that could still lead to several mislynches? Does your strategy do anything to prevent that?

Now granted, the fact we already have this much discussion and it is Day 0 might completely invalidate my question. But I guess a part of it is I'm just not a big fan of POE's style-wise. I feel like it potentially paints a broad brush if used too early, and can let baddies sneak under the radar if people are mis-identified. Hence my question.

[birdwithteeth11]

I lost interest after reading PoE 3 times

JJJ and MP, are you teammates again?

I don't use POE myself that much if at all, but I do find it an interesting strategy and, while not perfect, can be effective in certain situations.

What makes you think they're teammates? Just because they have similar feelings on certain players, albeit with slight disagreements on other opinions? Because I have null reads on both so far.

[birdwithteeth11]

Linki @MP - idk. I think it's the PoE discussion along with your mannerisms. Declaring PoE as your playstyle gives you a means to stick to something and have at least have that method of play be true. Your mannerisms make it hard to read you in general.

While I can see the argument for the first part, I disagree very much with the bolded. Since I started playing mafia, I think MP's mannerisms have changed considerably. I used to be able to tell much more quickly in games if he was civ or bad. But I think he has evolved and adapted well enough that he's become a much more difficult read, regardless of playstyle and mannerisms.

That being said, there are some thing he is more likely to do if he is civ vs. bad and vice-versa...

[birdwithteeth11]

That's exactly what a baddie would say.

Eh, I guess it was the mannerisms were just subject of my thoughts at the moment, but you are correct. This defined PoE playstyle is what has my feathers rustled. Your argument that it produces content doesn't settle my stomachache either as I know you have the potential to out tons of posts as a baddie just as you do while civvie.

Sooooo....you feel his defined playstyle and him stating so bothers you, but then say it isn't indicative-alignment right afterwards?

I thought you were trying to make your mind up on something. Are you sure you aren't just trying to stir the pot early on?

[birdwithteeth11]

Usually I'm all for tons of chatter out of the gate, but I'm too tired to read 140 posts right now, so you can all gonto hell.

I agree. That's why I waited until the morning to read when I had my coffee and was more alert.

I think lengthy, intensive Day 0/1 discussions can be very helpful and useful much later on it games. It sets a strong baseline to pick up from and go with as the game evolves and reads change and become more intuitive/informed.

[Tangrowth]

No beef, mostly tofu

You see, I'm on a special diet of only civs and you aren't on the menu

Okay.

Why don't I satisfy your diet?

Because you are actually antlantian.

Good morning everyone!

You could've just stated that you don't know.

Sure, I suppose I could have, but I'm naturally notoriously verbose when I speak and type, and I apparently intend on keeping it that way.

Staaaaaahp

It makes me baddie read you.

It's too early in the game for my gut to be whispering sweet nothings.

@MP, your read and understanding is accurate. I would like to bring to attention the underlined regarding the matter.

This doesn't change my gut read of you, but in regards to voting for you, you have convinced me that I want to keep you alive... With scrutiny...

I can dig it, your gut should be saying things anyway.

[birdwithteeth11]

Still catching up, but I had a question about this post.

Well, I've OT talked enough.

Although recently I've uncovered that POE naturally describes my recently developed playstyle because I much more easily find town reads than I do baddie reads, I've never formally used POE before.

I'll be using POE exclusively this game, and I'd like to approach it both as an individual (with my rainbow lists like I usually do) but as a group this time.

Who wants to join me?

tbh what does this mean tbh

Stated as simply as possible, POE ("process of elimination") takes the typical strategy of a town player (to hunt for members of the mafia) and flips it on its head (instead hunt for fellow townies).

The theory behind POE is that town can win due to the fact that it has a majority, and if members of the town can collectively use POE to clear enough of each other from consideration of being mafia, then the only players that haven't been cleared are the mafia.

A player can approach POE on an individual level, like I've usually been doing more so these days in the beginning of the game when I state "here are 5 town reads", etc., and then when it comes time to vote I just vote among the players I haven't found any reason to call town.

Multiple players can approach POE on a group level with specific intent of using POE (something I have not yet participated in), and assuming those players can town-clear each other, they will then work with each other collectively to cross-examine each other's town reads to develop a consensus suspect pool. For example, if there are 10 players, and I (as Player #1) have town reads on Players #3, 5, 7, and 8, and Players #3 and #5 who also are using POE have town reads on Players #2, 4, 5, and 9, then that leaves a consensus suspect pool of only Players #6 and #10, since neither of those players are being town read by any of the players utilizing POE. All of the POE-utilizing players would then decide on either #6 or #10 for their votes.

I get your argument for a group-based POE as a way to potentially eliminate civilians from the candidate pool. And maybe I'm just being a dunderhead here. But wouldn't your strategy not be very effective from a short-term perspective (I.E. only one or two days' worth of read from multiple people vs. a longer period of time)? I agree it could work in the long-term, but isn't there an opportunity cost early on that could still lead to several mislynches? Does your strategy do anything to prevent that?

Now granted, the fact we already have this much discussion and it is Day 0 might completely invalidate my question. But I guess a part of it is I'm just not a big fan of POE's style-wise. I feel like it potentially paints a broad brush if used too early, and can let baddies sneak under the radar if people are mis-identified. Hence my question.

Nevermind MP. You already answered this in a previous response to INH.

[Sloonei]

Hi.

JJJ is bad.



If anyone wants me, I'll be listening to REM

Hi Scotty.

No. What's your beef?

No beef, mostly tofu

You see, I'm on a special diet of only civs and you aren't on the menu

What is your approach to this game right now?

[Tangrowth]

Still catching up, but I had a question about this post.

Well, I've OT talked enough.

Although recently I've uncovered that POE naturally describes my recently developed playstyle because I much more easily find town reads than I do baddie reads, I've never formally used POE before.

I'll be using POE exclusively this game, and I'd like to approach it both as an individual (with my rainbow lists like I usually do) but as a group this time.

Who wants to join me?

tbh what does this mean tbh

Stated as simply as possible, POE ("process of elimination") takes the typical strategy of a town player (to hunt for members of the mafia) and flips it on its head (instead hunt for fellow townies).

The theory behind POE is that town can win due to the fact that it has a majority, and if members of the town can collectively use POE to clear enough of each other from consideration of being mafia, then the only players that haven't been cleared are the mafia.

A player can approach POE on an individual level, like I've usually been doing more so these days in the beginning of the game when I state "here are 5 town reads", etc., and then when it comes time to vote I just vote among the players I haven't found any reason to call town.

Multiple players can approach POE on a group level with specific intent of using POE (something I have not yet participated in), and assuming those players can town-clear each other, they will then work with each other collectively to cross-examine each other's town reads to develop a consensus suspect pool. For example, if there are 10 players, and I (as Player #1) have town reads on Players #3, 5, 7, and 8, and Players #3 and #5 who also are using POE have town reads on Players #2, 4, 5, and 9, then that leaves a consensus suspect pool of only Players #6 and #10, since neither of those players are being town read by any of the players utilizing POE. All of the POE-utilizing players would then decide on either #6 or #10 for their votes.

I get your argument for a group-based POE as a way to potentially eliminate civilians from the candidate pool. And maybe I'm just being a dunderhead here. But wouldn't your strategy not be very effective from a short-term perspective (I.E. only one or two days' worth of read from multiple people vs. a longer period of time)? I agree it could work in the long-term, but isn't there an opportunity cost early on that could still lead to several mislynches? Does your strategy do anything to prevent that?

Now granted, the fact we already have this much discussion and it is Day 0 might completely invalidate my question. But I guess a part of it is I'm just not a big fan of POE's style-wise. I feel like it potentially paints a broad brush if used too early, and can let baddies sneak under the radar if people are mis-identified. Hence my question.

I mean, I think that's true of whether someone is using POE or not; reads should become more detailed and nuanced as the game progresses (more information is available), so I am not sure that POE represents any unique obstacle there to early game usage than just hunting for baddies would. Am I missing something? Let me know if so.

It can better prevent mislynches if more players are using POE and many or all of the players are engaged in the game. The POE approach is ideally all about applying pressure to every player as much as possible, as well as fostering intensive discussion and cooperation, which can potentially result in a mathematically more friendly chance at hitting a mafia (by process of elimination) as opposed to actively hunting for mafia this early since there's so little information. Hope that makes sense.

[Tangrowth]

Linki @MP - idk. I think it's the PoE discussion along with your mannerisms. Declaring PoE as your playstyle gives you a means to stick to something and have at least have that method of play be true. Your mannerisms make it hard to read you in general.

While I can see the argument for the first part, I disagree very much with the bolded. Since I started playing mafia, I think MP's mannerisms have changed considerably. I used to be able to tell much more quickly in games if he was civ or bad. But I think he has evolved and adapted well enough that he's become a much more difficult read, regardless of playstyle and mannerisms.

That being said, there are some thing he is more likely to do if he is civ vs. bad and vice-versa...

This (bolded/underlined) is damn true; this man can historically read me better than nearly anyone else, save my wife Spacedaisy or maybe Russtifinko. It appears those who know me RL have an advantage.

Or at least previously had.

[Tangrowth]

That's exactly what a baddie would say.

Eh, I guess it was the mannerisms were just subject of my thoughts at the moment, but you are correct. This defined PoE playstyle is what has my feathers rustled. Your argument that it produces content doesn't settle my stomachache either as I know you have the potential to out tons of posts as a baddie just as you do while civvie.

Sooooo....you feel his defined playstyle and him stating so bothers you, but then say it isn't indicative-alignment right afterwards?

I thought you were trying to make your mind up on something. Are you sure you aren't just trying to stir the pot early on?

He could be, because you know, it's Wilgy and he's an enigma from game to game, but that's not the impression I'm getting at all. I'd even say that Im seeing a comparatively more transparent / forthcoming Wilgy so far than what I typically see.

[Tangrowth]

Nevermind MP. You already answered this in a previous response to INH.

Oh, okay, well, I elaborated a bit more anyway because I get off on mafia game strategy discussions.

[Tangrowth]

Hey Sloonei, talk to me about some things too when you get the chance! What's your strategy?

[Tangrowth]

I said I would stop talking; I should have known myself better. I'll be leaving for a little while now. Don't want to drown you all out.

[Vompatti]

omg k

[birdwithteeth11]

That's exactly what a baddie would say.

Eh, I guess it was the mannerisms were just subject of my thoughts at the moment, but you are correct. This defined PoE playstyle is what has my feathers rustled. Your argument that it produces content doesn't settle my stomachache either as I know you have the potential to out tons of posts as a baddie just as you do while civvie.

Sooooo....you feel his defined playstyle and him stating so bothers you, but then say it isn't indicative-alignment right afterwards?

I thought you were trying to make your mind up on something. Are you sure you aren't just trying to stir the pot early on?

He could be, because you know, it's Wilgy and he's an enigma from game to game, but that's not the impression I'm getting at all. I'd even say that Im seeing a comparatively more transparent / forthcoming Wilgy so far than what I typically see.

Yeah, he clarified it a bit more this morning so I feel better about him. Might as well get those thoughts out in the open anyway early on.

[Dom]

No beef, mostly tofu

You see, I'm on a special diet of only civs and you aren't on the menu

Okay.

Why don't I satisfy your diet?

bc you served a bunch of bull product when you read MP as bad because he's posting a lot.

[timmer]

Thx for the writeup on poe, MP, I'll prob just observe it in action this game to see how it plays out. I'm always more of a hunt baddies thru timing of posts/ timing of votes / minutiae type anyway, I'm not sure it'll fit my style.

[Boomslang]

Just got off a long shift of calling farmers. Checking in, will read tomorrow.

I'm intrigued.

Part of my internship is contacting farmers for participation in my organization's Local Food Guide, which is a sort of print/online directory for people to find good sources of local produce and animal products. Last night was the first day of our phonathon, lol.

[Marmot]

Last! Well maybe. Who hasn't checked in.

[triceratopzeuhl]

all this talk of Poe and I'm just sitting here like

[Golden]

Last! Well maybe. Who hasn't checked in.

There's still time for you to be the first to self-vote.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

No beef, mostly tofu

You see, I'm on a special diet of only civs and you aren't on the menu

Okay.

Why don't I satisfy your diet?

bc you served a bunch of bull product when you read MP as bad because he's posting a lot.

1. Why are you answering for Scotty?

2. That's an oversimplification of what I did that makes it sound worse than it was. I made a very specific numeral comparison to a game when MP was bad. It's not that he "posted a lot", it's that he utterly obliterated the count lead by a mile. He doesn't always manage quite that. It was something that concerned me in Transistor because I thought it might get him into trouble for being too tryhard. The memory came to me here so I poked him with it. I don't read him as bad. He warrants a little more poking than most other players because he does well to convey "genuine" effort regardless of alignment. I doubt it's the last time I'll poke him.

[Sloonei]

Hey Sloonei, talk to me about some things too when you get the chance! What's your strategy?

I've read about 1% of the thread so far. I've been either at work or asleep since this game started, but that's done now. I'll have things to say soonish.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I've spent like ten minutes looking at timmer's posts because they make me feel something, I just couldn't decide what.

A) His curious exploration of PoE with MP reflects a genuine interest in a method he hasn't considered, and his decision to forego it for now develops naturally from his stated concerns. That'd be nice.

B) He took the opportunity to discuss strategic matters without really thinking about their merits for his own sake. It creates posts in his ISO and establishes a rapport with an active contributor. That'd be less than nice.

Having typed both out now I feel like A) is more reasonable. So that's nice for timmer.

[Golden]

Hey Sloonei, talk to me about some things too when you get the chance! What's your strategy?

I've read about 1% of the thread so far. I've been either at work or asleep since this game started, but that's done now. I'll have things to say soonish.

There are 192 posts. You've written 10 of them. By my calculations, that means you haven't read 8 of your own posts so far.

I don't blame you though. I don't want to read my own posts either. I don't even know what I just typed.

[Tangrowth]

No beef, mostly tofu

You see, I'm on a special diet of only civs and you aren't on the menu

Okay.

Why don't I satisfy your diet?

bc you served a bunch of bull product when you read MP as bad because he's posting a lot.

1. Why are you answering for Scotty?

2. That's an oversimplification of what I did that makes it sound worse than it was. I made a very specific numeral comparison to a game when MP was bad. It's not that he "posted a lot", it's that he utterly obliterated the count lead by a mile. He doesn't always manage quite that. It was something that concerned me in Transistor because I thought it might get him into trouble for being too tryhard. The memory came to me here so I poked him with it. I don't read him as bad. He warrants a little more poking than most other players because he does well to convey "genuine" effort regardless of alignment. I doubt it's the last time I'll poke him.

For the record, I have no beefs with your poo flinging and believe it to be entirely within meta and reasonable.

[Golden]

Hot takes

Bwt is town. Scotty is bad.

[Tangrowth]

I've spent like ten minutes looking at timmer's posts because they make me feel something, I just couldn't decide what.

A) His curious exploration of PoE with MP reflects a genuine interest in a method he hasn't considered, and his decision to forego it for now develops naturally from his stated concerns. That'd be nice.

B) He took the opportunity to discuss strategic matters without really thinking about their merits for his own sake. It creates posts in his ISO and establishes a rapport with an active contributor. That'd be less than nice.

Having typed both out now I feel like A) is more reasonable. So that's nice for timmer.

I'd agree with the A) interpretation; I'm digging timmer's participation thus far.

[Tangrowth]

Hot takes

Bwt is town. Scotty is bad.

Can you elaborate? I agree that BWT is town GTH.

My gut is getting town pings all over the place. I'll make a very tentative POE rainbow shortly.

[Golden]

Hot takes

Bwt is town. Scotty is bad.

Can you elaborate?

No.

I mean, I could, but I'd rather not right now.

[Tangrowth]

Hot takes

Bwt is town. Scotty is bad.

Can you elaborate?

No.

I mean, I could, but I'd rather not right now.

That's cool; I await your elaboration in utmost anticipation.

[Boomslang]

Also, just listened to the first host post. W T actual F. It is a rainy day in Asheville, no sun, and I am thoroughly creeped.

Linki: Casual glance at timmer reads authentic to me as well. The "also" and "also also" construction in his post is more casual than a baddie might use when discussing the finer points of strategy.

Linki2: MP, ladies and gentlemen, making a rainbow on Day 0 :P