The Syndicate

Golden wrote:Fwiw, I don't find epi's behaviour particularly problematic. He is finding good reasons not to lynch people. I agree it would be ideal if he also hunted baddies, but I think that we should also listen to his pearls of wisdom about why people aren't bad and judge them on their merits.

I could do without the 'told you so' posts, though.

I agree with this.

Heading out again, BBL.

MovingPictures07 wrote:It would be nice for Epi to do some mafia hunting, even if he's been giving plenty of insightful reasons to find players town.

insightful reasons like "don't lynch boomslang, I'm warning you" and "don't vote AP, I'm warning you"

triceratopzeuhl wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:It would be nice for Epi to do some mafia hunting, even if he's been giving plenty of insightful reasons to find players town.

insightful reasons like "don't lynch boomslang, I'm warning you" and "don't vote AP, I'm warning you"

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:I initially thought INH seemed town because he seemed willing to move beyond our different approaches to the game and offer some fair criticism to the prospective manner in which I set out to approach this game.

Since then, however, INH has seemed intent to do the exact opposite, waging war against the very notion of meaningful d0/d1 content and engaging only to question the legitimacy of methods employed by other players instead of offering up anything much more than a proverbial shrug himself. It's been my natural inclination to shrug off the inherent scummy nature of these actions due to a meta-painted picture in my head of these stances being alignment-neutral for INH.

Demons You Call Angels Have No Reason to Behave Differently to Change Your Mind

You lost me. Can you reword or elaborate?

[insert name here] Should Live

Why?

No Incentive

...I'm still not getting it. INH doesn't have to be a mafia read. My mind is open. But he hasn't said anything since I made my beefs clear.

He Has No Reason to Fuck Up You Thinking He's Good by Becoming Argumentative, Ya Dingus

Epignosis wrote:

birdwithteeth11 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:Hey Little Bird, Do You Like Getting Lynched For Stupid Reasons?

No.

Which is why I'm not voting for AP, MP, or JJJ (even if he doesn't have any votes yet, he's certainly garnered suspicion). Or anyone else who has a vote today so far. I just don't see any other good cases outside of the one for Boomslang.

What about it makes it a stupid reason?

His Vote Was Rash and Poorly Thought Out, He Knew in Advanced He Wasn't Going to Be Around, and People Are Ganging Up on Him for an Inconsistency I Know Damn Well He Wouldn't Make if He Were In a League with Satan

birdwithteeth11 wrote: Linki: Then who is a better option? Give me a good reason to look at someone else and I will. I have the time to do so right now.

See, Here's the Thing: I'm Trying This Crazy Idea Where You Find All the Good Guys First and So Far It's Working Like Shit

Spoiler: show

Epignosis wrote:

LoRab wrote:For what it's worth, I think MP is civ.

I also think he should take a deep breath and come back to the game.

I'm voting A Person. At least for now. If they come back and give a reason for their post advocating for killing high posters, then I may reconsider.

A Person Complained About Volume...He Could Have Killed the Source of the Volume (But He Didn't)

Way to Characterize My Contributions

Now Seriously Time for Michelle (Oh Wait She's Not in the Show)

Epignosis wrote:

Golden wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

timmer wrote:You could have voted to tie the lynch, Epig. But you didn't. The chance to save AP was right there but you didn't take it. I'm not calling you bad. I'm not calling for your lynch. I'm calling your play sanctimonious and unhelpful. You cannot preach about trying to stop an AP lynch when you chose not to vote.

No I Couldn't Have...I Couldn't Have Voted at All

Were you prevented from saying that during the day?

I Was Unexpectedly Tied Up and Unable to Do Anything Related to Mafia

I remember somebody saying it's a good idea to vote early in case you miss the deadline.

Well damn, that sucks. RIP AP!

I will not be contributing much else tonight. I had a 12-hour work day, work today just sucked all around, and I have to be back in 10 1/2 hours. I probably will not be around for this night phase either, but if I am it will be very brief. I will probably be back about halfway through the next day phase.

Golden wrote:Fwiw, I don't find epi's behaviour particularly problematic. He is finding good reasons not to lynch people. I agree it would be ideal if he also hunted baddies, but I think that we should also listen to his pearls of wisdom about why people aren't bad and judge them on their merits.

I could do without the 'told you so' posts, though.

tbh how different is it from mp's original posts with poe?

timmer wrote:You could have voted to tie the lynch, Epig. But you didn't. The chance to save AP was right there but you didn't take it. I'm not calling you bad. I'm not calling for your lynch. I'm calling your play sanctimonious and unhelpful. You cannot preach about trying to stop an AP lynch when you chose not to vote.

What would saving timmer have done?

Golden wrote:Fwiw, I don't find epi's behaviour particularly problematic. He is finding good reasons not to lynch people. I agree it would be ideal if he also hunted baddies, but I think that we should also listen to his pearls of wisdom about why people aren't bad and judge them on their merits.

I could do without the 'told you so' posts, though.

Way ahead of you on that one.

Meh. Although I still say he wasn't playing a civ role in a particularly helpful way to the civ cause, so I'm not particularly bothered by the result as non mafia lynches go.

LoRab wrote:Meh. Although I still say he wasn't playing a civ role in a particularly helpful way to the civ cause, so I'm not particularly bothered by the result as non mafia lynches go.

Then You Are Part of the Problem

I Want to Lynch Triceratopzeuhl and Lorab in that Order

The Minute People Stop Lynching Because Someone Isn't Being Helpful or Said Something You Didn't Agree With is the Minute Mafia Trembles

I Have a Low Regard for 3J; He Has Had a Hand in Three Civilian Deaths in a Row, and Two of Those I Said Not to Kill

Epignosis wrote:I Have a Low Regard for 3J; He Has Had a Hand in Three Civilian Deaths in a Row, and Two of Those I Said Not to Kill

Sounds personal.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:I Have a Low Regard for 3J; He Has Had a Hand in Three Civilian Deaths in a Row, and Two of Those I Said Not to Kill

Sounds personal.

Why Would it Be?

Epignosis wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:I Have a Low Regard for 3J; He Has Had a Hand in Three Civilian Deaths in a Row, and Two of Those I Said Not to Kill

Sounds personal.

Why Would it Be?

Because he did as you told him not to do.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Golden wrote:I'll admit that I have no suspicions that are particularly strong, though. I feel like I have a lot more town reads than I do baddie reads.

Generally agreed. Even without a concerted effort to employ POE, I find myself doing it by accident. The suspicions I have voiced lately are my most substantive, but I don't boast the confidence in those reads I would like for a Day 3. Even still the town reads aren't extremely confident; I get the impression that reads are more likely to gravitate toward the gray center in a survival-oriented game. That mindset permeates the thread in a tangible way. I have only played in a couple like this though.

This Fellow is Not a Civilian

Epignosis wrote:This Fellow is Not a Civilian

I did not like his reasons for being against the Marmot vote. He broke the tie, and it amounted to him claiming that MP and I only suspected him because he suspected us, which was chronologically inaccurate. It was almost like a brush aside.

I could see a Marmot/Jay team. Heck, I could see a Marmot/Jay/Dom team.

Or maybe Marmot is an innocent bystander.

In any event, epi, I agree about Jay. He worries me. I feel like there is a lack of fire in his opinions. His whole game feels - clockwork, like a man calculating the impact of each post. I can't describe it any other way. He's always bothered me a little but in this lynch it felt much stronger than just tinfoil.

Epignosis wrote: Way to Characterize My Contributions

in a 50 page game you can only point to 3 counterexamples, my characterization stands completely

Golden wrote:Or maybe Marmot is an innocent bystander.

In any event, epi, I agree about Jay. He worries me. I feel like there is a lack of fire in his opinions. His whole game feels - clockwork, like a man calculating the impact of each post. I can't describe it any other way. He's always bothered me a little but in this lynch it felt much stronger than just tinfoil.

hides bloody paws behind back

Yup, just an innocent bystander.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Golden wrote:Or maybe Marmot is an innocent bystander.

In any event, epi, I agree about Jay. He worries me. I feel like there is a lack of fire in his opinions. His whole game feels - clockwork, like a man calculating the impact of each post. I can't describe it any other way. He's always bothered me a little but in this lynch it felt much stronger than just tinfoil.

hides bloody paws behind back

Yup, just an innocent bystander.

Or maybe Marmot is a bystander.

Epignosis wrote:I Have a Low Regard for 3J; He Has Had a Hand in Three Civilian Deaths in a Row, and Two of Those I Said Not to Kill

Yeah, the lynches I have pursued haven't worked. I've pursued the leads that I have found the most meaningful within the contexts of each end-phase tally and I live with the results. The point you made in defense of INH was not relevant to the suspicions I voiced of INH (it was based around the notion that INH had no discernible motive to change his behavior; I asserted he never actually did change his behavior). I didn't find your defenses of A Person to be compelling. That wasn't my favorite option, but it's the one I selected with Marmot as the premier alternative. I'd have preferred to lynch LoRab.

If you could have had anyone lynched you wanted each of these first three day phases, who would they have been?

Epignosis wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Golden wrote:I'll admit that I have no suspicions that are particularly strong, though. I feel like I have a lot more town reads than I do baddie reads.

Generally agreed. Even without a concerted effort to employ POE, I find myself doing it by accident. The suspicions I have voiced lately are my most substantive, but I don't boast the confidence in those reads I would like for a Day 3. Even still the town reads aren't extremely confident; I get the impression that reads are more likely to gravitate toward the gray center in a survival-oriented game. That mindset permeates the thread in a tangible way. I have only played in a couple like this though.

This Fellow is Not a Civilian

How does the text you've enlarged lead you to that conclusion?

Golden wrote:

Epignosis wrote:This Fellow is Not a Civilian

I did not like his reasons for being against the Marmot vote. He broke the tie, and it amounted to him claiming that MP and I only suspected him because he suspected us, which was chronologically inaccurate. It was almost like a brush aside.

I could see a Marmot/Jay team. Heck, I could see a Marmot/Jay/Dom team.

I didn't say it was the only reason you two suspected Marmot; I said it was a reason you may be susceptible to bias. When I asked for brief summaries against Marmot, both of you cited the suspicions he cast upon you as being a significant component of your suspicion, and I didn't find it moving. Moreover, the larger reason I was underwhelmed by a Marmot lynch was this:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I find myself wondering something: is it ever a good move for a baddie Marmot to turn his attention against Golden in this day phase? Golden had been under no real pressure otherwise and that isn't a lynch Marmot would have an easy time mobilizing, and yet that's where he went with it. That move also increased the likelihood of Golden staying hard in his suspicion of Marmot, something I doubt would be lost on the rodent if he were bad. It doesn't seem like a sensible strategy, even for Lord WIFOM.

If Marmot is bad, he chose the least effective response available when met with your concerns, Golden -- he turned on you, thereby ensuring your feelings about him would not improve and probably worsen instead. He willfully increased the degree of pressure on himself in order to voice concerns about you that nobody else was voicing, something I think is indicative of sincerity in his suspicion.

Golden wrote:Or maybe Marmot is an innocent bystander.

In any event, epi, I agree about Jay. He worries me. I feel like there is a lack of fire in his opinions. His whole game feels - clockwork, like a man calculating the impact of each post. I can't describe it any other way. He's always bothered me a little but in this lynch it felt much stronger than just tinfoil.

The opinions I express in this game reflect the mindset I have at the time of expressing them. My sole objective is to pursue the reads that I find the most compelling in the moment, and if it doesn't appear those pursuits are genuinely mine or otherwise purely motivated then that's just the way it is. I've been hearing similar commentary from MP and Sloonei too. I think y'all might have a cookie-cutter perspective of what my play is supposed to look like and when everything doesn't align with that framework I hear things like this.

That we've started the game 0 for 3 in lynches is obviously not ideal, and it demands a renewed sense of urgency. However, in a game that started with 4 known baddies out of 19 total (and given the lack of a kill on Night 2), the scenario isn't so dire as it typically would be after three mislynches. A little combined focus on hunting and less on survivalism could go a long way. I'm going to do full reviews of some players I haven't given sufficient critical attention (such as Dom, Trice, and sig). If anyone else wants to see my perspective of some other player, go ahead and ask.

triceratopzeuhl wrote:

Epignosis wrote: Way to Characterize My Contributions

in a 50 page game you can only point to 3 counterexamples, my characterization stands completely

I Have Accurately Pegged Three Civilians in Three Days And Pleaded Against Their Deaths: How Are You Doing?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Golden wrote:I'll admit that I have no suspicions that are particularly strong, though. I feel like I have a lot more town reads than I do baddie reads.

Generally agreed. Even without a concerted effort to employ POE, I find myself doing it by accident. The suspicions I have voiced lately are my most substantive, but I don't boast the confidence in those reads I would like for a Day 3. Even still the town reads aren't extremely confident; I get the impression that reads are more likely to gravitate toward the gray center in a survival-oriented game. That mindset permeates the thread in a tangible way. I have only played in a couple like this though.

This Fellow is Not a Civilian

How does the text you've enlarged lead you to that conclusion?

You Say You Automatically "POE" But You Have Ignored My Successful Attempt at Calling Out Reasons a Potential Lynch Candidate is Civilian Two out of Three Times: The First Time You Didn't Even Acknowledge What I Said About INH- I Had to Ask You About It, and You Responded with Syntactical Gymnastics, and the Second Time You Were Content to Let the AP Train Run its Course Based on a Small Sample Size that Indicated Odds Better Than the Roll of the Dice, Once Again Not Taking into Account My Point from the Second Day, and I Have Never Seen You Use a Percentage Like That to Endorse Someone's Lynch, Especially on the Third Day, and Additionally, I Have Never Seen You So On Board with Three Low-Hanging-Fruit Lynches in a Row, So No, I Don't Like the Cut of Your Jib (0:23)

Hey Jay, talk to me about Epignosis. What do you think of him?

Epignosis wrote:You Say You Automatically "POE" But You Have Ignored My Successful Attempt at Calling Out Reasons a Potential Lynch Candidate is Civilian Two out of Three Times: The First Time You Didn't Even Acknowledge What I Said About INH- I Had to Ask You About It, and You Responded with Syntactical Gymnastics, and the Second Time You Were Content to Let the AP Train Run its Course Based on a Small Sample Size that Indicated Odds Better Than the Roll of the Dice, Once Again Not Taking into Account My Point from the Second Day, and I Have Never Seen You Use a Percentage Like That to Endorse Someone's Lynch, Especially on the Third Day, and Additionally, I Have Never Seen You So On Board with Three Low-Hanging-Fruit Lynches in a Row, So No, I Don't Like the Cut of Your Jib (0:23)

Your resistance to the INH lynch was not related to the suspicion I stated about INH. Your argument was related to MP's suspicion of INH. No, I was not moved by your argument against someone else's assertions.

I have never used percentages like that before. That statistical compilation is a recent product of mine, and I am only now starting to encounter opportunities to utilize that information. It's an experiment I grant, but I am willing to utilize that kind of aid especially when discussing a player otherwise immune to analysis (too few posts). It didn't work out, oh well. I'm sure I'll try again the next time I see a relevant opportunity.

I don't think INH or DrWilgy were low-hanging fruit. A Person could be called that as any total lurker could be, but I don't really care. If you didn't like that lynch, you didn't do enough to stop it. Merely saying "I don't like it" is not good enough. You also need to provide an alternative, and you did not. So I reiterate this question:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:If you could have had anyone lynched you wanted each of these first three day phases, who would they have been?

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Hey Jay, talk to me about Epignosis. What do you think of him?

I think he's suspicious. He's taking these three mislynches, pretending he was some kind of unrespected ignored hero who tried to stop them, and then scapegoating people who took part. It's very easy and it's shit reasoning. It's the same kind of shit he pulled as a baddie in Red vs. Blue when I had a few bad reads to open the game.

Epignosis has no room for moral high ground because he did jack shit to change these results. No clearly stated and promoted alternative to the unwanted lynches accomplishes nothing other than to simply watch those unwanted lynches resolve. It's weak sauce.

I Don't Have to Have an Alternative Mr. POE- it's Good Enough That I Tell You Who Not to Lynch and Why

triceratopzeuhl wrote:

Epignosis wrote: Way to Characterize My Contributions

in a 50 page game you can only point to 3 counterexamples, my characterization stands completely

How many successful examples would convince you? Five? Ten? This doesn't change the fact that he was right. Also, trying to assess post value by density in this game is ridiculous given the ballooning that occurred in the first couple of days.
Also, literally laughed at loud at the (0:23) tag on Epi's last post.

If You Think I'm Gloating Here, I'm Not- I'm Pissed That People Are Running Lynches on People For Stupid Reasons (Like to Punish Them for Saying High Posters Should be Killed or For Having a Snarky Change of Tone), But I Suppose You Could Lynch Me Next to Punish Me for Being Right and Not Doing Enough to Stop People From Making Poor Decisions

If I Had Day 3 to Do All Over Again, I'd Do It All Over Trice

The Tricycle Could Interact With Me in One of Several Ways- He Could Ask Me to Clarify Something, Expound Upon Something, Offer Alternative Explanations for My Observations, or Disagree With Me for His Own Reasons...Instead His Activity is to Outright Discredit Me, and if He's a Civilian, There is No Good Reason for Him to Do That Unless He's Convinced I'm Bad

I like where this discussion is going.

Epig, all people want out of you, and I don't get why you don't get this, are some alternatives. I mean, I said just like you dI'd that many of the cases yesterday were problematic. But that's where it ended for you. You are stubbornly refusing to take the lead in finding better choices and until you start to, just saying that you were right is going to go nowhere.

Linki: your refusal to find baddies is discrediting you, man. Take some responsibility for your lack of finding bad guys and stop blaming everybody for not seeing you as the uber-civ you claim to be.

timmer wrote:Epig, all people want out of you, and I don't get why you don't get this, are some alternatives. I mean, I said just like you dI'd that many of the cases yesterday were problematic. But that's where it ended for you. You are stubbornly refusing to take the lead in finding better choices and until you start to, just saying that you were right is going to go nowhere.

Linki: your refusal to find baddies is discrediting you, man. Take some responsibility for your lack of finding bad guys and stop blaming everybody for not seeing you as the uber-civ you claim to be.

He just gave you some alternatives.

timmer wrote:Epig, all people want out of you, and I don't get why you don't get this, are some alternatives. I mean, I said just like you dI'd that many of the cases yesterday were problematic. But that's where it ended for you. You are stubbornly refusing to take the lead in finding better choices and until you start to, just saying that you were right is going to go nowhere.

Linki: your refusal to find baddies is discrediting you, man. Take some responsibility for your lack of finding bad guys and stop blaming everybody for not seeing you as the uber-civ you claim to be.

If You Find The Civilians, You Only Have Mafia Left Over and It Starts to Get Very Uncomfortable for Them

Name your three most likely baddies, off the top of your head.

The thing with poe is, if you are thy only one doing it, and everyone else is trying to find baddies, then you end up looking like an unhelpful Island. Poe, from what I gather, works best when people pursue it as a group.

If you want to a poe party of one, you will have to accept that you are actively being the guy not finding baddies.

And if finding alternatives = the people attacking you, it's another faIL. You tried that with me, as well. If you are fully civ and genuinely want to find badies, going after the people annoyed with your play is destined to not end well, imo.

That said, I am of course paying attention.

Epignosis wrote:

triceratopzeuhl wrote:

Epignosis wrote: Way to Characterize My Contributions

in a 50 page game you can only point to 3 counterexamples, my characterization stands completely

I Have Accurately Pegged Three Civilians in Three Days And Pleaded Against Their Deaths: How Are You Doing?

No, you voted to lynch a civilian on day 2. Boomslang is also not necessarily civvie, AND your only reason was that you think it would have been a misplay to do what he did (which rules out nothing)

Boomslang wrote:

triceratopzeuhl wrote:

Epignosis wrote: Way to Characterize My Contributions

in a 50 page game you can only point to 3 counterexamples, my characterization stands completely

How many successful examples would convince you? Five? Ten? This doesn't change the fact that he was right. Also, trying to assess post value by density in this game is ridiculous given the ballooning that occurred in the first couple of days.
Also, literally laughed at loud at the (0:23) tag on Epi's last post.

It's not the number, it's the fact that most of his claims of who's a civilian were without any reason (like I said earlier).

Epignosis wrote:If You Think I'm Gloating Here, I'm Not- I'm Pissed That People Are Running Lynches on People For Stupid Reasons (Like to Punish Them for Saying High Posters Should be Killed or For Having a Snarky Change of Tone), But I Suppose You Could Lynch Me Next to Punish Me for Being Right and Not Doing Enough to Stop People From Making Poor Decisions

Offer an alternative theory then, you haven't done so in the last 2 lynches. Of course, if you were bad you would know who is good and bad, so you could do what you've been doing for civvie cred without ever threatening your teammates.

Epignosis wrote:The Tricycle Could Interact With Me in One of Several Ways- He Could Ask Me to Clarify Something, Expound Upon Something, Offer Alternative Explanations for My Observations, or Disagree With Me for His Own Reasons...Instead His Activity is to Outright Discredit Me, and if He's a Civilian, There is No Good Reason for Him to Do That Unless He's Convinced I'm Bad

But I have several times, you ignore most of them because it would require acting like a good player
I also had to correct you being purposely obtuse with sig (who could well be bad but if he is it's not related to his day 2 posting):

sig wrote: So I don't see a good case for Boomslang or Wilgy or A person. However,

^ so transparent I don't believe for a second you of all people wouldn't understand this post and yet:

triceratopzeuhl wrote:

Epignosis wrote: But...You Don't See the Case on Boomslang............................Your Words

what he actually said was that he didn't agree with the case on boomslang, OR the case on wilgy, OR the case on a person.

He also decided to vote to try to save somebody he thought was good, which you could have done day 3 if you were interested in playing like a civ at all

While I'm quote mining, here was that exchange with dom I mentioned before but forgot to post, when he was throwing out rapid fire suspicions in the hope anything would stick & not acknowledging responses to them:

Epignosis wrote:

timmer wrote:Epig, all people want out of you, and I don't get why you don't get this, are some alternatives. I mean, I said just like you dI'd that many of the cases yesterday were problematic. But that's where it ended for you. You are stubbornly refusing to take the lead in finding better choices and until you start to, just saying that you were right is going to go nowhere.

Linki: your refusal to find baddies is discrediting you, man. Take some responsibility for your lack of finding bad guys and stop blaming everybody for not seeing you as the uber-civ you claim to be.

If You Find The Civilians, You Only Have Mafia Left Over and It Starts to Get Very Uncomfortable for Them

Any if you only find 3 (actually 2) civilians but both are dead anyway? All the way back on day 0 I asked if this POE thing ever works, seems the answer was no

timmer wrote:Name your three most likely baddies, off the top of your head.

I Don't Have Three Because That's Not the Way I'm Approaching This