Fallout 2: A Post-Nuclear Mafia Game [AMERICA RISES]

[Alison]

You know how I was sure c4 was an outed wolf but didn't vote him and had no real interest in pushing him? It's because the PM instructing JJJ to kill him at the end of D1 was already in my inbox. I was more interested in BK vs Jack. Unfortunately I was wrong about both c4 and BK and I may well be wrong on Jack (and I was also wrong on Esooa), so I'm going to take my time to read up and reformulate my understanding of the game.

I also feel like I was overwhelmingly wrong on Day 1. Why do you think we're so wrong this game? let us all brainstorm

The most likely reasoning is that this Bread Mafia 2 and the wolves have all gone deep.

Let us say that you are town and SPF is town. All of us were dead wrong Day 1. That's very unusual. If all of us are town then we are severely misclearing someone and that person is pulling our strings.

Who do you trust the most that could be fooling you?

Epi

Epi would fit, yeah. I almost forgot he existed because he just kept doing this thing with the gimmick which I townread.

[Alison]

here's a spicy take

[VOTE: alison] aubergine

I kind of vibe with this based on her uninspiring sus of Mac

You now know I am town.

Esooa and Urist both tried to raise suspicion on me because of my sus of Mac. Esooa is flipped mafia.

What do you think of Urist and Mac?

[Alison]

Am I being fooled by Dom?

c4 (confirmed town) thought he was lock scum. Townies who are being wrongly put on the chopping block have a unique ability to sense the truth, because they have a uniquely insightful perspective on the sincerity of pushes on them (and c4 thought Dom's push was VERY insincere). They also know that they are town so they can solve the game around that, like they have a free cop check on someone in the POE.

I trusted Dom D1, but I think town is being bent over so I'm putting my thoughts on the table. I want to hear input from others because this isn't a game I trust myself to solo carry.

[Alison]

If Dom is mafia then I am being targeted for pocketing because Esooa also tried to buddy up to me a little.

[Alison]

oh right: epi is not a vault city resident

Why?

[Alison]

esooa likes to powerwolf and shield her partners

but it's usually done in a more subtle way (ie: shading one of her partners while still fiercely protecting them at the same time)

in this case, esooa brought a ton of attention to the people scumreading mac, and then outed a very specific meta reason for mac to be town as a way to defend him. i think that this was esooa trying to get into mac's good graces by outing a "detailed" read about him, and we can see esooa's desire to get mac to townread her reflected in her final posts before the day ended (around here: (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2055&p=738710#p738710)

^^the interaction in that whole exchange is just generally a little flat too - esooa is trying to engage with mac and mac is giving short, blunt replies that indicate he doesnt particularly want to get a read on esooa in that moment

it's just generally not how i think they would approach each other if they were teamed. there would be more "oomph" to it

I was trying to decide if Esooa was chainsaw defending Mac, or TMI-ing him. I agree with this analysis and lean towards the latter now.

[Alison]

Let’s not forgot that the person executed yesterday voted directly Tony rather then their voters.
They specifically vote the person who had their vote on me.

Angleshoot: if ChopChop is scum, their partners would tell them not to make this argument in BTSC because it's historically been the kind of argument that doesn't fly on Syndicate.

[Sloonei]

oh right: epi is not a vault city resident

Why?

Spoiler: show

I'm not reading any of these

Why not?

I'm on mobile and it's too small to read without going through the trouble of making it bigger which meh

[Alison]

i think tonystarkprime is town

He is.

Ok, you elaborate too!

He looks like a person who is actively trying to figure out what the hell is going on, and he's definitely not partnered with Esooa at the very least.

I don't recall any interactions with Esooa that clear Tony from being a Vault City dweller.

Show me why you think his solving is so strong?

[Sloonei]

Let’s not forgot that the person executed yesterday voted directly Tony rather then their voters.
They specifically vote the person who had their vote on me.

Angleshoot: if ChopChop is scum, their partners would tell them not to make this argument in BTSC because it's historically been the kind of argument that doesn't fly on Syndicate.

Counterargument: Mafia ChopChop didn't run this by anyone in BTSC.

[Alison]

oh right: epi is not a vault city resident

Why?

Spoiler: show

I'm not reading any of these

Why not?

I'm on mobile and it's too small to read without going through the trouble of making it bigger which meh

Esooa and I play League of Legends and chat on a daily basis. She once told me that when she is walking to work, she thinks up clever and unorthodox ways to fake clear herself or her buddies. This is an interaction that she would not only easily but gleefully fake as wolf partners.

[Alison]

Let’s not forgot that the person executed yesterday voted directly Tony rather then their voters.
They specifically vote the person who had their vote on me.

Angleshoot: if ChopChop is scum, their partners would tell them not to make this argument in BTSC because it's historically been the kind of argument that doesn't fly on Syndicate.

Counterargument: Mafia ChopChop didn't run this by anyone in BTSC.

Okay, that's fair.

[Sloonei]

oh right: epi is not a vault city resident

Why?

Spoiler: show

I'm not reading any of these

Why not?

I'm on mobile and it's too small to read without going through the trouble of making it bigger which meh

Esooa and I play League of Legends and chat on a daily basis. She once told me that when she is walking to work, she thinks up clever and unorthodox ways to fake clear herself or her buddies. This is an interaction that she would not only easily but gleefully fake as wolf partners.

This is good to know.

[Alison]

That might be a good place to start. Find anything like that in my history and you get to apply to have the right to accuse me of it.

I don't think LC is the kind to go for the "I am so obviously cleared town you're either scum or a moron if you refuse to clear me off this interaction" line as scum. I have positive feelings about LC right now.

[Sloonei]

Although another point about Epi: he does not like bussing. Actively avoids it as much as he can. He pushed hard (by his standards in this game) against Esooa yesterday.

[TonyStarkPrime]

Let’s not forgot that the person executed yesterday voted directly Tony rather then their voters.
They specifically vote the person who had their vote on me.

Angleshoot: if ChopChop is scum, their partners would tell them not to make this argument in BTSC because it's historically been the kind of argument that doesn't fly on Syndicate.

again just you wait

[Sloonei]

That might be a good place to start. Find anything like that in my history and you get to apply to have the right to accuse me of it.

I don't think LC is the kind to go for the "I am so obviously cleared town you're either scum or a moron if you refuse to clear me off this interaction" line as scum. I have positive feelings about LC right now.

I dunno, LC is one of the most versatile scum players I've ever seen.

[Alison]

Although another point about Epi: he does not like bussing. Actively avoids it as much as he can. He pushed hard (by his standards in this game) against Esooa yesterday.

Hm, alright. I'll keep him in view and continue my catchup.

[Sloonei]

I want to keep hunting and trying to root out the well-concealed wolves in this game, but at the same time I feel like we were just handed the most obvious wolf we'll ever find in our entire mafia lives in ChopChop, and it would be inexcusable not to vote for him today.

[Alison]

Hey, I just pinned that Rej post in my ISO with the intention of circling back later.

you know what they say about great minds

I basically have nothing new to add RE: esooa & rej. I was just going to ask for opinions on that big post, because I could go either way on it. How confident would you be with the suggestion that that was esooa shielding a teammate?

i would not bank on it with any level of confidence

the main thing that pushes me to feel that way is the fact that esooa outrighted ignored rej for the entire game ~until~ the pressure against him started to pick up a little bit more momentum - then she suddenly started outing a fairly confident defense of rej while still playing lip service to my suspicions of him. if she didn't out her read on rej ~until~ he was being pressured, then it implies to me that she probably had a specific agenda behind doing it. the agenda could have just been to try to TMI someone as town for towncred, in theory, but the way that she seemed particularly invested in hearing what i thought about her rej read (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2055&p=738501#p738501) made me feel like she was subtly doing it to get me to back off of rej

it aligns fairly well with how i would expect esooa to treat one of her partners under pressure

I had two main disagreements with Esooa yesterday: her opinion that my case against Mac sucked, and her opinion that Rej was town (I think I said something like "this is just Space Invaders Rej" at that time). I think your theory that Rej is Esooa's teammate is plausible and Rej is in my exe pool today.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Does spf kill esooa?

if it was strategically beneficial, yes

it probably would not be, since she was one of my most ardent defenders

I think it's strategically beneficial for Enclave SPF to kill Esooa because you're dating and you think she can read you. But I don't think you're the type of person to make that kind of kill - you didn't kill Hally early on in Grasslands for instance. You'd be more likely to go for the pocket because of that connection. So no I don't think you killed Esooa. So you aren't Enclave and you aren't Vault City (because Esooa was clearly trying to pocket you). I have no concerns about you.

Wait really? Dawwww.

[Alison]

ChopChop feels like the low hanging fruit option that the real mafiers try to push us toward.

I think I agree with this. After D1, I see ChopChop as a trap.

[Alison]

I want to keep hunting and trying to root out the well-concealed wolves in this game, but at the same time I feel like we were just handed the most obvious wolf we'll ever find in our entire mafia lives in ChopChop, and it would be inexcusable not to vote for him today.

I'm starting to wonder wtf happened in the last few pages.

[staypositivefriend]

Am I being fooled by Dom?

c4 (confirmed town) thought he was lock scum. Townies who are being wrongly put on the chopping block have a unique ability to sense the truth, because they have a uniquely insightful perspective on the sincerity of pushes on them (and c4 thought Dom's push was VERY insincere). They also know that they are town so they can solve the game around that, like they have a free cop check on someone in the POE.

I trusted Dom D1, but I think town is being bent over so I'm putting my thoughts on the table. I want to hear input from others because this isn't a game I trust myself to solo carry.

i consistently struggled to understand dom's line of reasoning yesterday, and i felt that the way he engaged with me was intentionally combative and not interested in dialoguing with me

i chalked that up to some alpha-male hyper dominant playstyle stuff, but he fits the description of a powerwolf in the sense that he aggressively pushed on me and c4 and even tried to partner us together (although in fairness, he did change his stance on me throughout the day), and i felt that the aggressive energy he started out with in the early game diminished quite a lot when a certain consensus was set

so he fits in a certain sense, but i dont feel like i know dom well enough as a player to understand what his typical solving looks like

[Sloonei]

ChopChop feels like the low hanging fruit option that the real mafiers try to push us toward.

I think I agree with this. After D1, I see ChopChop as a trap.

I'm not sure I agree with myself anymore. But I'm no longer reading ChopChop on content. Now I'm trying to decide if he really just claimed as scum.

[Sloonei]

I want to keep hunting and trying to root out the well-concealed wolves in this game, but at the same time I feel like we were just handed the most obvious wolf we'll ever find in our entire mafia lives in ChopChop, and it would be inexcusable not to vote for him today.

I'm starting to wonder wtf happened in the last few pages.

oh right you're still catching up.

[Alison]

Dom and Epi are deepwolf candidates. I feel good about SPF and I feel ok about Sloonei.

[staypositivefriend]

i think tonystarkprime is town

Why? I don't like his theory about Jack's motivations for scumreading Sloonei, I think it doesn't make sense and while this by itself isn't proof that TSP is scum it certainly doesn't help. I've had a suspicion of him throughout most of D1 and he seems like he's trying to skate by. Opening D2 with a discussion of mech instead of actual solving isn't townie.

i don't know. i really liked his attempts to figure out who mechanically could have made the shot on c4, and i've consistently liked his tone. it's an incredibly flimsy read with even flimsier justification

[Alison]

Yo, to whoever sent me the message last night, I don't know why I should trust you. See you slipped up and skipped over Esooa in your recap. How did you Esooa was gonna die last night and not be relevant to the conversation? If you were Luke you wouldn't have known. I call bullshit on your message and your attempt to solicit a role claim from me.

Spacedaisy is in my towncore.

[staypositivefriend]

i feel like a lot of the concern i had about sloonei at the start of today stemmed from my underlying frustration/grumpiness about my read on c4 being ignored throughout d1, in all honesty

if i remove the emotional component from my own thoughts about sloonei, then my concerns are mostly just nitpicks

[Alison]

pretty sure chop just claimed wolf

spell this out in case anyone here missed it

I’m not wolf, but I may or may not have been the one to give one of those null’s a letter from the BOS.

oh.

okay.

I see why you're outed now.

[Alison]

[VOTE: ChopChop] aubergine

[Jackofhearts2005]

oh right: epi is not a vault city resident

Why?

Spoiler: show

I'm not reading any of these

Why not?

I'm on mobile and it's too small to read without going through the trouble of making it bigger which meh

@staypositivefriend teach your lover to two finger zoom on mobile before someone mistakes her for an old person.

[Alison]

I can't see a strong mafia reason to immediately understand what I'm saying with partial info that I gave, and to out themself as the sender when I said I believed they were bad.

Chop is town I think.

On the other hand: Esooa was (I believe) almost certainly killed by the Enclave. If your initial theory is true, the sender of the message omitted Esooa by mistake because they knew she was going to end up dead.

The Enclave has access to one of three potential roles in the game capable of sending an anonymous private message to a player.

This would be a convoluted and unfortunate coincidence if Chop is one of the two potential town roles with that ability.

Yeah I think Chop just slipped. I can believe he would slip like this and claim without realizing what was going on. He was widely suspected D1 and as SPF notes, I think Esooa legitimately scumread him (and she has good reads usually). It's multiball, so we do need to consider the reads of flipped mafia. Everything points towards Chop, and I'm just going to flip him.

[Jackofhearts2005]

@Spacedaisy @ChopChop

To the extent you are able, I wanna know what was in that message.

Why did you pick Daisy?

Was Esooa the only player missing from the note? Or the only player in a group missing?

[Alison]

big brain theory is that chop and daisy are both enclave.

That is a big brain theory. But neither Chop nor Daisy are the kind to come up with a strategy this sneaky, which means there is a mastermind directing this sequence of events from BTSC. Esooa could, I could, neither of us are Enclave. Mac could be the mastermind, but it doesn't suit his style to go full Light Yagami in scum chat and afk in the thread.

Who do you think is the mastermind if this is true? I lean towards it not being true and Daisy just being town. The mix of paranoia and emotion in her post was struck very precisely, and it is not easy to fake.

[TonyStarkPrime]

Thank God almighty I’m not crazy

[Alison]

Is it realistic to think that the Enclave member holding that role would actually forget to include the name of their nightkill victim?

If this team is functioning like a normal team should, that message would have been peer reviewed in the team chat before it got sent out. Somebody should have noticed that Esooa's name was missing.

As a wise man once said: Mafia ChopChop doesn't run it by BTSC.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Thank God almighty I’m not crazy

For suspecting Chop or in general?

[Sloonei]

big brain theory is that chop and daisy are both enclave.

That is a big brain theory. But neither Chop nor Daisy are the kind to come up with a strategy this sneaky, which means there is a mastermind directing this sequence of events from BTSC. Esooa could, I could, neither of us are Enclave. Mac could be the mastermind, but it doesn't suit his style to go full Light Yagami in scum chat and afk in the thread.

Who do you think is the mastermind if this is true? I lean towards it not being true and Daisy just being town. The mix of paranoia and emotion in her post was struck very precisely, and it is not easy to fake.

I don't believe it's true.

but i could see lc pulling something like that. maayyyyybe epi or dom. it's got a very old school syndicate feel.

but i'm not seriously entertaining the theory.

[Alison]

Still think Jack could easily be scum here but I’m not gonna rush the gun on anything yet.

Why not? Isn't your name "chop chop"?

Yeah my thoughts go Chop Chop!
My vote goes Chop Chop on the hand!
No use my power yet!

ChopChop is scum.

[TonyStarkPrime]

Thank God almighty I’m not crazy

For suspecting Chop or in general?

One or both take your pick

[Sloonei]

oh or marmot.

[TonyStarkPrime]

Still think Jack could easily be scum here but I’m not gonna rush the gun on anything yet.

Why not? Isn't your name "chop chop"?

Yeah my thoughts go Chop Chop!
My vote goes Chop Chop on the hand!
No use my power yet!

ChopChop is scum.

I only noticed this when you said something about it in your catchup

[Sloonei]

Is it realistic to think that the Enclave member holding that role would actually forget to include the name of their nightkill victim?

If this team is functioning like a normal team should, that message would have been peer reviewed in the team chat before it got sent out. Somebody should have noticed that Esooa's name was missing.

As a wise man once said: Mafia ChopChop doesn't run it by BTSC.

Night actions are usually highly coordinated tho

[Alison]

Is it realistic to think that the Enclave member holding that role would actually forget to include the name of their nightkill victim?

If this team is functioning like a normal team should, that message would have been peer reviewed in the team chat before it got sent out. Somebody should have noticed that Esooa's name was missing.

As a wise man once said: Mafia ChopChop doesn't run it by BTSC.

Night actions are usually highly coordinated tho

What are the chances that the other Enclave members said something like "Chop, send a message to Daisy or something and try to fish for a claim", and they don't review the exact wording?

[Sloonei]

big brain theory is that chop and daisy are both enclave.

That is a big brain theory. But neither Chop nor Daisy are the kind to come up with a strategy this sneaky, which means there is a mastermind directing this sequence of events from BTSC. Esooa could, I could, neither of us are Enclave. Mac could be the mastermind, but it doesn't suit his style to go full Light Yagami in scum chat and afk in the thread.

Who do you think is the mastermind if this is true? I lean towards it not being true and Daisy just being town. The mix of paranoia and emotion in her post was struck very precisely, and it is not easy to fake.

I don't believe it's true.

but i could see lc pulling something like that. maayyyyybe epi or dom. it's got a very old school syndicate feel.

but i'm not seriously entertaining the theory.

if it's got an old school syndicate feel that I'd also have to include daisy's name on the list. let's not assume she's not a capable schemer.

[Alison]

Regardless it doesn't matter. Chop lied about not using his power. Messenger is not a role you play cagey about - it's not like a one-shot vigilante or a one-shot doctor. There was no reason for town Chop to lie.

[TonyStarkPrime]

It’s so bizarre though because he clearly planned to claim today or at least something like that

[TonyStarkPrime]

Like you don’t claim after a slip if you weren’t going to claim without the slip