The Syndicate

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:54 pm**

Did nobody end up off wagon entirely?

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:54 pm**

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:51 pm
Alison wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:45 pm The person I am most likely misclearing is Seanzie especially since he is townclearing Creature. I am currently townreading him because he treated Boq in a very hostile way D1 that I find characteristic of his town play and not of his scum play. I also think he is needlessly setting himself up to look like a fool by pushing Alison/Mac partners D2 - he doesn't have to push that line to get me over so I don't see how that benefits scum Seanzie. But maybe I am wrong and his scum range is bigger than I thought. Do your due diligence on Seanzie before clearing him especially if Creature flips scum.
I don't think Seanzie/Creature are viable. One of the least viable pairings in the game. Seanzie has been townreading Creature and Creature has been very uncomfortable with him doing so, fighting him over it and Seanzie has just been doubling down on the townread through it. It'd be a very unusual w/w dynamic. There are specific context queues to it that make it moreso such as when Seanzie was like "well if it helps this just makes me even more sure you're town" when Creature was foiling Seanzie trying yo pocket him.

Oh yes, I remember that quote you brought up. Yea, I can add Seanzie/Creature to the non w/w list.

Lmk if you agree or disagree with any of the other non w/w I listed.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:55 pm**

Maybe Rondo is just outed. He subs in, zero posts, then proceeds to silent vote me and then ping pong his vote around for no reason, declare a POE of me/Mac (which is likely 100% town now) and then zero posts again D2.

Him slotting into one of the slots in my solve would make the wagonomics make more sense.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:55 pm**

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:54 pm Did nobody end up off wagon entirely?

Boq and Lily were the only ones off both wagons.

I believe Boq is town

and I have Lily in conflicted/null now. If Alison is town, then Lily is likely town as well.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:55 pm**

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:54 pm Did nobody end up off wagon entirely?

Boq was off wagon because he wasn't around for EOD. Lilypetal was off wagon because she thought Falcon was townie at EOD and didn't want to vote me because it would make it tie.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:56 pm**

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:55 pm Maybe Rondo is just outed. He subs in, zero posts, then proceeds to silent vote me and then ping pong his vote around for no reason, declare a POE of me/Mac (which is likely 100% town now) and then zero posts again D2.

Him slotting into one of the slots in my solve would make the wagonomics make more sense.

To your standards, he literally made an anti-town move and self-voted when there was a wagon occurring on him at EoD and didn't receive the pressure well on him imo.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:56 pm**

arogame123 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:55 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:54 pm Did nobody end up off wagon entirely?
Boq and Lily were the only ones off both wagons.

I believe Boq is town

and I have Lily in conflicted/null now. If Alison is town, then Lily is likely town as well.

How does this read make sense? Given the way my slot has interacted with Lily's the whole game you should be clearing her if I am wolf, not if I am town. And if you think she's town regardless of how I flip then you should have her as lock town not conflicted/null no?

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:57 pm**

If it's t/t wagons I'd be surprised the mafia didn't triple split. That's generally the pattern. But it's relatively asinine to think about.

Boquise does give me pause generally. I don't think he's mafia but he's had wagons and several people suspecting him so there's a chance some people are seeing something I'm not.

It's not as if Boq/Lily being wolves would shock me to my very core.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:57 pm**

arogame123 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:56 pm
Alison wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:55 pm Maybe Rondo is just outed. He subs in, zero posts, then proceeds to silent vote me and then ping pong his vote around for no reason, declare a POE of me/Mac (which is likely 100% town now) and then zero posts again D2.

Him slotting into one of the slots in my solve would make the wagonomics make more sense.
To your standards, he literally made an anti-town move and self-voted when there was a wagon occurring on him at EoD and didn't receive the pressure well on him imo.

Unfortunately Rondo is one of the very few people in the world who is actually more likely to do this as town than as wolf.

But there's only so much slack I can give him, he fits too well with the team and I'm never bringing him to endgame ever. So he needs to go.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:58 pm**

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:57 pm If it's t/t wagons I'd be surprised the mafia didn't triple split. That's generally the pattern. But it's relatively asinine to think about.

Boquise does give me pause generally. I don't think he's mafia but he's had wagons and several people suspecting him so there's a chance some people are seeing something I'm not.

It's not as if Boq/Lily being wolves would shock me to my very core.

I have not vibed with any reason given for wagoning Boq this game, and I thought his D2 posting was townie. Like "several people suspecting him" doesn't mean anything unless their reasons are good.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:59 pm**

Rondo randomly dropping highly useful votecounts throughout was like... a strange thing to do for a wolf but I guess not that townie.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:59 pm**

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:58 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:57 pm If it's t/t wagons I'd be surprised the mafia didn't triple split. That's generally the pattern. But it's relatively asinine to think about.

Boquise does give me pause generally. I don't think he's mafia but he's had wagons and several people suspecting him so there's a chance some people are seeing something I'm not.

It's not as if Boq/Lily being wolves would shock me to my very core.
I have not vibed with any reason given for wagoning Boq this game, and I thought his D2 posting was townie. Like "several people suspecting him" doesn't mean anything unless their reasons are good.

What reasons given have you not vibed with? Cuz I've not seen any reasons myself...

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:00 pm**

I low key kinda think Rondo fits in both worlds if Alison is v or if she is mafia tbh.

I think if Alison is mafia, Porscha is just probably town.

If Alison is town, Lily is likely town and maybe Lucy as well for wanting to protect Alison and with how confident Alison is on Lucy.

Kinda early thoughts aorn.

Have the town core of Mac, SPF, and Boq.

Looking at like a POE of Alison, Rondo, Porscha, and maybe Neon and possibly Creature or Nanook (pending flips).

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:01 pm**

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:59 pm Rondo randomly dropping highly useful votecounts throughout was like... a strange thing to do for a wolf but I guess not that townie.

iirc he does it as either alignment? I can't remember if he did it in Halvosen Ridge

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:02 pm**

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:59 pm
Alison wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:58 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:57 pm If it's t/t wagons I'd be surprised the mafia didn't triple split. That's generally the pattern. But it's relatively asinine to think about.

Boquise does give me pause generally. I don't think he's mafia but he's had wagons and several people suspecting him so there's a chance some people are seeing something I'm not.

It's not as if Boq/Lily being wolves would shock me to my very core.
I have not vibed with any reason given for wagoning Boq this game, and I thought his D2 posting was townie. Like "several people suspecting him" doesn't mean anything unless their reasons are good.
What reasons given have you not vibed with? Cuz I've not seen any reasons myself...

"There's probably a power wolf in this game"
"He just seems off"
"He's trying to get LHF misexed"

I don't think much of these reasons as I said and it's why I was so staunchly against the Boq wagon yesterday.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:03 pm**

Alison, why did you flip on Neon exactly? I saw you reverting to Neon town. What made you go back on her in POE? Just purely wagonomics or anything independent of that?

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:03 pm**

@arogame123 did you not think Lucy kinda destroyed Creature here? I thought what she dropped near outed him tbh.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:05 pm**

arogame123 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:03 pm Alison, why did you flip on Neon exactly? I saw you reverting to Neon town. What made you go back on her in POE? Just purely wagonomics or anything independent of that?

I had her in my immediate POE but said if I had to take one person out of that POE it would be Neon. The reason why is that she struck me as town near the middle of D1, and none of the others in that POE have given me serious town pings + most of them have voting patterns as bad as hers.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:06 pm**

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:03 pm @arogame123 did you not think Lucy kinda destroyed Creature here? I thought what she dropped near outed him tbh.

I haven't looked at it yet. I am at work and have been realtimining. I will look over it when I get home. Could you quote for me please?

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:06 pm**

Man though, why am I getting PTSD vibes back to CvD when Alison voted themselves right before lylo lmfao. Damn.

Anyone who has played with Alison before when she is mafia, has she done t his type of thing before?

@lucy just curious, what's your current read on Alison?

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:08 pm**

arogame123 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:06 pm Man though, why am I getting PTSD vibes back to CvD when Alison voted themselves right before lylo lmfao. Damn.

Anyone who has played with Alison before when she is mafia, has she done t his type of thing before?

@lucy just curious, what's your current read on Alison?

I don't remember if I've specifically done it as mafia before but it is well within my scum range.

The reason I did it is so people stop debating my alignment and start solving the other 12 players in the game.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:08 pm**

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:05 pm
arogame123 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:03 pm Alison, why did you flip on Neon exactly? I saw you reverting to Neon town. What made you go back on her in POE? Just purely wagonomics or anything independent of that?
I had her in my immediate POE but said if I had to take one person out of that POE it would be Neon. The reason why is that she struck me as town near the middle of D1, and none of the others in that POE have given me serious town pings + most of them have voting patterns as bad as hers.

I see ok, makes sense. thanks

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:09 pm**

arogame123 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:06 pm Man though, why am I getting PTSD vibes back to CvD when Alison voted themselves right before lylo lmfao. Damn.

Anyone who has played with Alison before when she is mafia, has she done t his type of thing before?

@lucy just curious, what's your current read on Alison?

i’m seeing town alison here, but also i think creature might’ve spewed her town and it’s not actually absolute tbh
i’m only going creature/alison today, anything else is throwing

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:09 pm**

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:08 pm
arogame123 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:06 pm Man though, why am I getting PTSD vibes back to CvD when Alison voted themselves right before lylo lmfao. Damn.

Anyone who has played with Alison before when she is mafia, has she done t his type of thing before?

@lucy just curious, what's your current read on Alison?
I don't remember if I've specifically done it as mafia before but it is well within my scum range.

The reason I did it is so people stop debating my alignment and start solving the other 12 players in the game.

Yea, I have been kind of solving in the world where you are town while you are here to get your thoughts, so I do appreciate it.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:10 pm**

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:27 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:12 am Like we're probably either in a universe where:

Alison is mafia with whoever the fuck
or
Neon/Lily are mafia and their whole agenda in this game is just pocket and try to coast

I feel like almost everybody with the exception of Creature and SPF are relatively suspicious of Alison at this point? (If you aren't then vocalise it).

I feel like almost nobody EXCEPT Creature/Alison/SPF is suspicious of Neon or Lily?

@RondoDimBuckle can you come play or something.

@lucy what's your gamestate?
459AB5B5-C7A4-4B20-BA83-8DBCB3145DD3.jpeg

read down from here
signal boost

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:10 pm**

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:09 pm
arogame123 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:06 pm Man though, why am I getting PTSD vibes back to CvD when Alison voted themselves right before lylo lmfao. Damn.

Anyone who has played with Alison before when she is mafia, has she done t his type of thing before?

@lucy just curious, what's your current read on Alison?
i’m seeing town alison here, but also i think creature might’ve spewed her town and it’s not actually absolute tbh
i’m only going creature/alison today, anything else is throwing

Can you quote your link me your creature case? I will look over it in a bit.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:10 pm**

I mean... if you have time to be here posting how you do arogame the idea you don't have time to go read the burial case of the game triggers the shit out of me. When people try to pretend they don't have time to read posts while threadsitting for half an hour fucks me up.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:11 pm**

oh ty! I will later tn after work! I gtg now, but good chatting.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:11 pm**

arogame123 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:10 pm
lucy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:09 pm
arogame123 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:06 pm Man though, why am I getting PTSD vibes back to CvD when Alison voted themselves right before lylo lmfao. Damn.

Anyone who has played with Alison before when she is mafia, has she done t his type of thing before?

@lucy just curious, what's your current read on Alison?
i’m seeing town alison here, but also i think creature might’ve spewed her town and it’s not actually absolute tbh
i’m only going creature/alison today, anything else is throwing
Can you quote your link me your creature case? I will look over it in a bit.

just did, also it’s not a case it’s like 100 words max

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:12 pm**

start here

https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 05#p955805

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:12 pm**

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:10 pm I mean... if you have time to be here posting how you do arogame the idea you don't have time to go read the burial case of the game triggers the shit out of me. When people try to pretend they don't have time to read posts while threadsitting for half an hour fucks me up.

I mean I prefer real-timing and interacting with people rather than go in catch up and I will catch up later once I get out of work lol.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:12 pm**

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:10 pm I mean... if you have time to be here posting how you do arogame the idea you don't have time to go read the burial case of the game triggers the shit out of me. When people try to pretend they don't have time to read posts while threadsitting for half an hour fucks me up.

It's because the mafia community fetishizes realtiming as a way of making reads when it isn't nearly as powerful or accurate as people think.*

*Unless you're one of those people that genuinely cannot solve except by realtiming, in which case do what you have to do ig.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:13 pm**

arogame123 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:12 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:10 pm I mean... if you have time to be here posting how you do arogame the idea you don't have time to go read the burial case of the game triggers the shit out of me. When people try to pretend they don't have time to read posts while threadsitting for half an hour fucks me up.
I mean I prefer real-timing and interacting with people rather than go in catch up and I will catch up later once I get out of work lol.

this leads to things such as you pushing a townread on an outed wolf for several pages while a burial case sits there gathering dust with nobody looking at it

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:14 pm**

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:12 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:10 pm I mean... if you have time to be here posting how you do arogame the idea you don't have time to go read the burial case of the game triggers the shit out of me. When people try to pretend they don't have time to read posts while threadsitting for half an hour fucks me up.
It's because the mafia community fetishizes realtiming as a way of making reads when it isn't nearly as powerful or accurate as people think.*

*Unless you're one of those people that genuinely cannot solve except by realtiming, in which case do what you have to do ig.

fetishizing sure is a way to describe it lol

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:16 pm**

D3 Creature -> Porscha -> Rondo -> SPF ends the game, either immediately or the day after when the third wolf is outed by those flips.

Unless I am calculating wrong this is auto even if there are only two wolves in the first four.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:20 pm**

Notwithstanding that if SPF is not a wolf she'd be dead by that day in almost all worlds or have solved the game.

I wanna go back to something. One sec.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:20 pm**

@MacDougall still alison before creature?

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:21 pm**

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:20 pm Notwithstanding that if SPF is not a wolf she'd be dead by that day in almost all worlds or have solved the game.

I wanna go back to something. One sec.

That's why I have her last.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:29 pm**

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:20 pm @MacDougall still alison before creature?

Yes I think so. If we don't flip her and Creature flips town the gamestate will deteriorate awfully.

Alison being town gives us nearly as much info as her mafia flip would.

Either way I do think I'd want to chop Creature next.

I tend to feel like Arogame and SPF are more viable partners to Creature especially though than the likes of Porscha or Rondo as Alison is proclaiming.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:30 pm**

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:30 pm**

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:29 pm
lucy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:20 pm @MacDougall still alison before creature?
Yes I think so. If we don't flip her and Creature flips town the gamestate will deteriorate awfully.

Alison being town gives us nearly as much info as her mafia flip would.

Either way I do think I'd want to chop Creature next.

I tend to feel like Arogame and SPF are more viable partners to Creature especially though than the likes of Porscha or Rondo as Alison is proclaiming.

yeah these were my thoughts, I just wasn't't 100%

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:30 pm**

This is a really important key back up point for late game.

If Alison and Porscha are both town. I think there is a difference check between Aro and Boq.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:32 pm**

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:03 pm @arogame123 did you not think Lucy kinda destroyed Creature here? I thought what she dropped near outed him tbh.

Pretty sure I debunked Lucy's whole case on me with facts and logic right here:

Spoiler: show

Creature wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:08 am
lucy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:27 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:12 am Like we're probably either in a universe where:

Alison is mafia with whoever the fuck
or
Neon/Lily are mafia and their whole agenda in this game is just pocket and try to coast

I feel like almost everybody with the exception of Creature and SPF are relatively suspicious of Alison at this point? (If you aren't then vocalise it).

I feel like almost nobody EXCEPT Creature/Alison/SPF is suspicious of Neon or Lily?

@RondoDimBuckle can you come play or something.

@lucy what's your gamestate?
459AB5B5-C7A4-4B20-BA83-8DBCB3145DD3.jpeg

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:28 am
Creature wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:24 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:20 pm
Creature wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:19 pm
lucy wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:17 pm spf and creature, game theory wise do we Lynch the cw?
We shouldn't restrict our lynch options today. It's not set in stone Alison is wolf and I feel like wolves are skating under the radar while we eat each other.
Maybe you just don't actually realise how bad this is but not killing the counterwagon on day 2 is the number 1 thing that leads to town losing mountainous games. Nothing else comes close.
Perhaps. I just hate giving wolves a free day pass because we have to resolve wagons when TvT wagons are quite common.

I'm still right. When two players end up being final wagons D1 and one of them gets flipped town, the other is bound to get resolved sooner or later. I just disagree they should be resolved instantly.

Like, in that game you're referencing at some poijt the wagons were you (wolf) v Chaos (town) v Vanta Black (town). Eventually your wagon collapsed into a Chaos (town) v Vanta Black (town) final thunderdome. Vanta Black ended up lynched that day and Chaos was poisoned the next night, while you got a pass all the way to endgame.

I'm concerned the same thing could've happened with Porscha (wolf) v Alison (town) v falcon45ca (town): the Porscha wagon collapsed into an Alison (town) v falcon45ca (town) final thunderdome where we lynched falcon45caand now we're resolving Alison while Porscha gets away.

Creature wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:11 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:34 am
Creature wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:05 pm Lilypetal's play here feels bizarre from a wolf perspective. Though sometimes I still get bothered that I'm noy used to Lilypetal playing like this. I wonder if it's Syndicate's behavior altering elixir in action.
Hmmm

Sableye;6246067 wrote:I guess my lucy townread had to do with her actions not making sense from wolf, like claiming VT right out of the gate. I also kinda agreed when someone said her reactions felt genuinely frustrated town.
These two posts are remarkably similar lol.
Pretty sure my townread on Lilypetal is structured a lot differently than my lucy townread on the other game. Here I expressed the reason why I townread Lilypetal and also pointed something I was concerned about her. That other game I only listed reasons to townread lucy without any drawback.

Creature wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:12 am Hell I guess I pushed Lilypetal remorselessly a lot D1 because of her entrance. I feel like I would be inclined to just ignore my partner's entrance or just be quick to drop suspicions about them.

Creature wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:18 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:48 am Okay here are some quotes from Creature from this game Lucy has pulled irt how he treats teammates (August this year so very recent, probably Creature's most recent wolfrand).
It's not even close to my most recent wolfrand. I guess I ended up playing fairly suboptimally there because I was alting and the deadlines were so long I often got bored.

My most recent non-mash wolfrand was Something Simple which had a 48/24 deadline format just like this game. If you're suspecting Alison and I are partnered this game is an even better comparison because I was wolfing with Alice Liddell and I deem both Alison and Alice to be strong (wolf) players so you can just compare my treatment of them.

Creature wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:21 am Also I remember Alison was very frustrated at Twice Shrunk for burning all his towncred to defend her in the Spec Chat game. If we were wolf partners I feel like I've been defending her so much she'd want to marry Twice Shrunk after this game.

Creature wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:27 am
lucy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:54 am mac, don’t go off his play around me, i was mafia poisoned and wagon d1
he tried to and successfully spewed me town
his play would logically be different this game in compared to around me that game
There's this too. I feel like I would've prob bussed lucy that game if lucy wasn't the wolf's strongest role by far.

I ended up making shit up so I could save lucy and I knew that would probably make me look bad. I ended up just taking advantage of town unaligning lucy and me because I defended her vehemently.

Also I ended up pushing my other two partners a lot trying to spew them town when lucy and I both eventually were lynched.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:32 pm**

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:30 pm This is a really important key back up point for late game.

If Alison and Porscha are both town. I think there is a difference check between Aro and Boq.

How so?

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:34 pm**

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:16 pm D3 Creature -> Porscha -> Rondo -> SPF ends the game, either immediately or the day after when the third wolf is outed by those flips.

Unless I am calculating wrong this is auto even if there are only two wolves in the first four.

IF I AM EVER LYNCHED THIS GAME MAC SHOULD ALWAYS BE LYNCHED NEXT IF HE'S STILL ALIVE

HIS PUSHES HAVE BEEN PRETTY BAD-FAITH SO FAR AND I FEEL LIKE HE'S JUST FULL OF SHIT ESPECIALLY IF ALL OF FALCON, ALISON AND ME ARE TOWN

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:34 pm**

Creature wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:32 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:03 pm @arogame123 did you not think Lucy kinda destroyed Creature here? I thought what she dropped near outed him tbh.
Pretty sure I debunked Lucy's whole case on me with facts and logic right here:

Spoiler: show
Creature wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:08 am
lucy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:27 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:12 am Like we're probably either in a universe where:

Alison is mafia with whoever the fuck
or
Neon/Lily are mafia and their whole agenda in this game is just pocket and try to coast

I feel like almost everybody with the exception of Creature and SPF are relatively suspicious of Alison at this point? (If you aren't then vocalise it).

I feel like almost nobody EXCEPT Creature/Alison/SPF is suspicious of Neon or Lily?

@RondoDimBuckle can you come play or something.

@lucy what's your gamestate?
459AB5B5-C7A4-4B20-BA83-8DBCB3145DD3.jpeg

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:28 am
Creature wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:24 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:20 pm
Creature wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:19 pm
lucy wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:17 pm spf and creature, game theory wise do we Lynch the cw?
We shouldn't restrict our lynch options today. It's not set in stone Alison is wolf and I feel like wolves are skating under the radar while we eat each other.
Maybe you just don't actually realise how bad this is but not killing the counterwagon on day 2 is the number 1 thing that leads to town losing mountainous games. Nothing else comes close.
Perhaps. I just hate giving wolves a free day pass because we have to resolve wagons when TvT wagons are quite common.

I'm still right. When two players end up being final wagons D1 and one of them gets flipped town, the other is bound to get resolved sooner or later. I just disagree they should be resolved instantly.

Like, in that game you're referencing at some poijt the wagons were you (wolf) v Chaos (town) v Vanta Black (town). Eventually your wagon collapsed into a Chaos (town) v Vanta Black (town) final thunderdome. Vanta Black ended up lynched that day and Chaos was poisoned the next night, while you got a pass all the way to endgame.

I'm concerned the same thing could've happened with Porscha (wolf) v Alison (town) v falcon45ca (town): the Porscha wagon collapsed into an Alison (town) v falcon45ca (town) final thunderdome where we lynched falcon45caand now we're resolving Alison while Porscha gets away.

Creature wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:11 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:34 am
Creature wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:05 pm Lilypetal's play here feels bizarre from a wolf perspective. Though sometimes I still get bothered that I'm noy used to Lilypetal playing like this. I wonder if it's Syndicate's behavior altering elixir in action.
Hmmm

Sableye;6246067 wrote:I guess my lucy townread had to do with her actions not making sense from wolf, like claiming VT right out of the gate. I also kinda agreed when someone said her reactions felt genuinely frustrated town.
These two posts are remarkably similar lol.
Pretty sure my townread on Lilypetal is structured a lot differently than my lucy townread on the other game. Here I expressed the reason why I townread Lilypetal and also pointed something I was concerned about her. That other game I only listed reasons to townread lucy without any drawback.

Creature wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:12 am Hell I guess I pushed Lilypetal remorselessly a lot D1 because of her entrance. I feel like I would be inclined to just ignore my partner's entrance or just be quick to drop suspicions about them.

Creature wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:18 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:48 am Okay here are some quotes from Creature from this game Lucy has pulled irt how he treats teammates (August this year so very recent, probably Creature's most recent wolfrand).
It's not even close to my most recent wolfrand. I guess I ended up playing fairly suboptimally there because I was alting and the deadlines were so long I often got bored.

My most recent non-mash wolfrand was Something Simple which had a 48/24 deadline format just like this game. If you're suspecting Alison and I are partnered this game is an even better comparison because I was wolfing with Alice Liddell and I deem both Alison and Alice to be strong (wolf) players so you can just compare my treatment of them.

Creature wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:21 am Also I remember Alison was very frustrated at Twice Shrunk for burning all his towncred to defend her in the Spec Chat game. If we were wolf partners I feel like I've been defending her so much she'd want to marry Twice Shrunk after this game.

Creature wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:27 am
lucy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:54 am mac, don’t go off his play around me, i was mafia poisoned and wagon d1
he tried to and successfully spewed me town
his play would logically be different this game in compared to around me that game
There's this too. I feel like I would've prob bussed lucy that game if lucy wasn't the wolf's strongest role by far.

I ended up making shit up so I could save lucy and I knew that would probably make me look bad. I ended up just taking advantage of town unaligning lucy and me because I defended her vehemently.

Also I ended up pushing my other two partners a lot trying to spew them town when lucy and I both eventually were lynched.

I read it multiple times and it was weak and not compelling at all

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:35 pm**

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:34 pm
Creature wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:32 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:03 pm @arogame123 did you not think Lucy kinda destroyed Creature here? I thought what she dropped near outed him tbh.
Pretty sure I debunked Lucy's whole case on me with facts and logic right here:

Spoiler: show
Creature wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:08 am
lucy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:27 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:12 am Like we're probably either in a universe where:

Alison is mafia with whoever the fuck
or
Neon/Lily are mafia and their whole agenda in this game is just pocket and try to coast

I feel like almost everybody with the exception of Creature and SPF are relatively suspicious of Alison at this point? (If you aren't then vocalise it).

I feel like almost nobody EXCEPT Creature/Alison/SPF is suspicious of Neon or Lily?

@RondoDimBuckle can you come play or something.

@lucy what's your gamestate?
459AB5B5-C7A4-4B20-BA83-8DBCB3145DD3.jpeg

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:28 am
Creature wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:24 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:20 pm
Creature wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:19 pm

We shouldn't restrict our lynch options today. It's not set in stone Alison is wolf and I feel like wolves are skating under the radar while we eat each other.
Maybe you just don't actually realise how bad this is but not killing the counterwagon on day 2 is the number 1 thing that leads to town losing mountainous games. Nothing else comes close.
Perhaps. I just hate giving wolves a free day pass because we have to resolve wagons when TvT wagons are quite common.

I'm still right. When two players end up being final wagons D1 and one of them gets flipped town, the other is bound to get resolved sooner or later. I just disagree they should be resolved instantly.

Like, in that game you're referencing at some poijt the wagons were you (wolf) v Chaos (town) v Vanta Black (town). Eventually your wagon collapsed into a Chaos (town) v Vanta Black (town) final thunderdome. Vanta Black ended up lynched that day and Chaos was poisoned the next night, while you got a pass all the way to endgame.

I'm concerned the same thing could've happened with Porscha (wolf) v Alison (town) v falcon45ca (town): the Porscha wagon collapsed into an Alison (town) v falcon45ca (town) final thunderdome where we lynched falcon45caand now we're resolving Alison while Porscha gets away.

Creature wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:11 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:34 am
Creature wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:05 pm Lilypetal's play here feels bizarre from a wolf perspective. Though sometimes I still get bothered that I'm noy used to Lilypetal playing like this. I wonder if it's Syndicate's behavior altering elixir in action.
Hmmm

Sableye;6246067 wrote:I guess my lucy townread had to do with her actions not making sense from wolf, like claiming VT right out of the gate. I also kinda agreed when someone said her reactions felt genuinely frustrated town.
These two posts are remarkably similar lol.
Pretty sure my townread on Lilypetal is structured a lot differently than my lucy townread on the other game. Here I expressed the reason why I townread Lilypetal and also pointed something I was concerned about her. That other game I only listed reasons to townread lucy without any drawback.

Creature wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:12 am Hell I guess I pushed Lilypetal remorselessly a lot D1 because of her entrance. I feel like I would be inclined to just ignore my partner's entrance or just be quick to drop suspicions about them.

Creature wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:18 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:48 am Okay here are some quotes from Creature from this game Lucy has pulled irt how he treats teammates (August this year so very recent, probably Creature's most recent wolfrand).
It's not even close to my most recent wolfrand. I guess I ended up playing fairly suboptimally there because I was alting and the deadlines were so long I often got bored.

My most recent non-mash wolfrand was Something Simple which had a 48/24 deadline format just like this game. If you're suspecting Alison and I are partnered this game is an even better comparison because I was wolfing with Alice Liddell and I deem both Alison and Alice to be strong (wolf) players so you can just compare my treatment of them.

Creature wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:21 am Also I remember Alison was very frustrated at Twice Shrunk for burning all his towncred to defend her in the Spec Chat game. If we were wolf partners I feel like I've been defending her so much she'd want to marry Twice Shrunk after this game.

Creature wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:27 am
lucy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:54 am mac, don’t go off his play around me, i was mafia poisoned and wagon d1
he tried to and successfully spewed me town
his play would logically be different this game in compared to around me that game
There's this too. I feel like I would've prob bussed lucy that game if lucy wasn't the wolf's strongest role by far.

I ended up making shit up so I could save lucy and I knew that would probably make me look bad. I ended up just taking advantage of town unaligning lucy and me because I defended her vehemently.

Also I ended up pushing my other two partners a lot trying to spew them town when lucy and I both eventually were lynched.

I read it multiple times and it was weak and not compelling at all

Do you mean your case on me?

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:36 pm**

you know shits bad when I post 2 messages without any words of my own then creature sends 15 messages defending himself

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:36 pm**

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:32 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:30 pm This is a really important key back up point for late game.

If Alison and Porscha are both town. I think there is a difference check between Aro and Boq.
How so?

They were the two voting Porscha in the vc Rondo posted. If town Alison is burying town Porscha I fail to see how a wolf is not among those who glob onto it. And if three town named Alison, Aro and Boq are all voting town Porscha ... where are the mafia voting?

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:37 pm**

Creature wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:35 pm
lucy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:34 pm
Creature wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:32 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:03 pm @arogame123 did you not think Lucy kinda destroyed Creature here? I thought what she dropped near outed him tbh.
Pretty sure I debunked Lucy's whole case on me with facts and logic right here:

Spoiler: show
Creature wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:08 am
lucy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:27 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:12 am Like we're probably either in a universe where:

Alison is mafia with whoever the fuck
or
Neon/Lily are mafia and their whole agenda in this game is just pocket and try to coast

I feel like almost everybody with the exception of Creature and SPF are relatively suspicious of Alison at this point? (If you aren't then vocalise it).

I feel like almost nobody EXCEPT Creature/Alison/SPF is suspicious of Neon or Lily?

@RondoDimBuckle can you come play or something.

@lucy what's your gamestate?
459AB5B5-C7A4-4B20-BA83-8DBCB3145DD3.jpeg

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:28 am
Creature wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:24 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:20 pm

Maybe you just don't actually realise how bad this is but not killing the counterwagon on day 2 is the number 1 thing that leads to town losing mountainous games. Nothing else comes close.
Perhaps. I just hate giving wolves a free day pass because we have to resolve wagons when TvT wagons are quite common.

I'm still right. When two players end up being final wagons D1 and one of them gets flipped town, the other is bound to get resolved sooner or later. I just disagree they should be resolved instantly.

Like, in that game you're referencing at some poijt the wagons were you (wolf) v Chaos (town) v Vanta Black (town). Eventually your wagon collapsed into a Chaos (town) v Vanta Black (town) final thunderdome. Vanta Black ended up lynched that day and Chaos was poisoned the next night, while you got a pass all the way to endgame.

I'm concerned the same thing could've happened with Porscha (wolf) v Alison (town) v falcon45ca (town): the Porscha wagon collapsed into an Alison (town) v falcon45ca (town) final thunderdome where we lynched falcon45caand now we're resolving Alison while Porscha gets away.

Creature wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:11 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:34 am
Creature wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:05 pm Lilypetal's play here feels bizarre from a wolf perspective. Though sometimes I still get bothered that I'm noy used to Lilypetal playing like this. I wonder if it's Syndicate's behavior altering elixir in action.
Hmmm

Sableye;6246067 wrote:I guess my lucy townread had to do with her actions not making sense from wolf, like claiming VT right out of the gate. I also kinda agreed when someone said her reactions felt genuinely frustrated town.
These two posts are remarkably similar lol.
Pretty sure my townread on Lilypetal is structured a lot differently than my lucy townread on the other game. Here I expressed the reason why I townread Lilypetal and also pointed something I was concerned about her. That other game I only listed reasons to townread lucy without any drawback.

Creature wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:12 am Hell I guess I pushed Lilypetal remorselessly a lot D1 because of her entrance. I feel like I would be inclined to just ignore my partner's entrance or just be quick to drop suspicions about them.

Creature wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:18 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:48 am Okay here are some quotes from Creature from this game Lucy has pulled irt how he treats teammates (August this year so very recent, probably Creature's most recent wolfrand).
It's not even close to my most recent wolfrand. I guess I ended up playing fairly suboptimally there because I was alting and the deadlines were so long I often got bored.

My most recent non-mash wolfrand was Something Simple which had a 48/24 deadline format just like this game. If you're suspecting Alison and I are partnered this game is an even better comparison because I was wolfing with Alice Liddell and I deem both Alison and Alice to be strong (wolf) players so you can just compare my treatment of them.

Creature wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:21 am Also I remember Alison was very frustrated at Twice Shrunk for burning all his towncred to defend her in the Spec Chat game. If we were wolf partners I feel like I've been defending her so much she'd want to marry Twice Shrunk after this game.

Creature wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:27 am
lucy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:54 am mac, don’t go off his play around me, i was mafia poisoned and wagon d1
he tried to and successfully spewed me town
his play would logically be different this game in compared to around me that game
There's this too. I feel like I would've prob bussed lucy that game if lucy wasn't the wolf's strongest role by far.

I ended up making shit up so I could save lucy and I knew that would probably make me look bad. I ended up just taking advantage of town unaligning lucy and me because I defended her vehemently.

Also I ended up pushing my other two partners a lot trying to spew them town when lucy and I both eventually were lynched.

I read it multiple times and it was weak and not compelling at all
Do you mean your case on me?

lol

The Syndicate

King of the Hill Mafia

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